OCLogs: 2016-10-23.log

Stuff goes here

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L6[01:33:57] <Izaya> vifino: You mentioned NodeMCU a while back, right?

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L23[02:55:10] <Kodos> o/

L24[02:56:51] <Temia> So in an attempt to figure out how a species from setting A would get into setting B in a crazy crossover event, I somehow found myself looking up the amount of energy needed to discorporate a G-type main-sequence star and compared it to the release of two earthlike planets spontaneously converted to energy.

L25[02:57:25] <Kodos> You fucking what

L26[02:57:29] <Temia> Conclusion: if Ar Ciel and the Ra Ciela microquasar managed to fuse with Toril and Abeir respectively, all of Realmspace would probably be obliterated in a gamma ray burst the moment something caused the orgel of origins to break.

L27[02:58:13] <Temia> Which is, strictly speaking, better than the alternative of the false vacuum collapse a failure of the orgel of origins would've caused in its own universe.

L28[02:58:39] <Temia> Gotta look at the positives!

L29[02:58:49] <Kodos> Temia, you /do/ realize this is an English speaking channel, right?

L30[02:59:02] <Temia> Do I look like I'm speaking in Hymmnos here?

L31[02:59:12] <Vexatos> Kodos, ich habe keinen Schimmer, wovon du redest.

L32[02:59:24] <Izaya> Whats a hymmnos

L33[02:59:25] <Kodos> Vexatos, du hast

L34[02:59:29] <Vexatos> Kodos pls

L35[02:59:55] <Temia> Only tangentially relevant to this finding, that's what

L36[03:00:15] <Temia> Because if that happened, the Hymmnos language would also cease to exist.

L37[03:00:27] <Kodos> Vexatos, du hasst mich

L38[03:00:55] <Vexatos> Ja, ich hasse dich, weil due dieses verdammte Lied zitierst D:

L39[03:01:08] <Temia> I can't wait to see what happens when Google picks up on tonight's logs.

L40[03:01:09] <Vexatos> du* >_>

L41[03:03:26] <Temia> Maybe... maybe I shouldn't have decided to play a teru for a friend's 5e game. I might have created a bit of a cosmic powderkeg.

L42[03:03:53] <Temia> ...ah, who am I kidding, he would've done the crossover whether or not I did.

L43[03:04:03]

<Ember_Primrose> o/

L44[03:04:44] <Antheus> ffs

L45[03:04:59] <Antheus> I'm trying to play an old mass produced simulator german thing game

L46[03:05:04] <Antheus> from 10 years ago

L47[03:05:14] <Antheus> and it's asking for a product key

L48[03:05:20]

<Ember_Primrose> D:

L49[03:05:28] <Kodos> Antheus, game name?

L50[03:05:42] <Antheus> "Demolition Company"

L51[03:05:52] <Antheus> made by wither Giants, Astragon, or Tri Synergy

L52[03:06:05] <Antheus> big thing on cover that says "FROM THE MAKERS OF FARMING SIMULATOR"

L53[03:06:27] <Antheus> Circa 2010

L54[03:09:52] <Antheus> I think I'm just going to shell out the $10 on steam for it

L55[03:12:34] <Antheus> Welp, that's $10 out of my account

L56[03:16:00] <Antheus> now if I can just play it within 2 hours and the refund it

L57[03:16:41] <Kodos> Why the shit would you buy it if you're going to refund it

L58[03:17:41] <Antheus> because I couldnt find a torent that was being seeded

L59[03:17:44] <GreazyMcgeezy> Antheus: Do you also buy clothes to wear to a party one night, and return them the next day?

L60[03:17:44] <Antheus> or that wasnt porn

L61[03:17:57] <Antheus> GreazyMcgeezy, That would require me going to parties

L62[03:18:01] <GreazyMcgeezy> Haha

L63[03:18:15] <Antheus> I'm actually worried about it not working on Win 10

L64[03:18:19] <Ember_Primrose> dammit

L65[03:18:59] <Antheus> I bumped the settings all the way up

L66[03:19:00] <Ember_Primrose> quassel aint playing nice, or, idk how to configure it properly,

L67[03:19:01] <Izaya> so upgrade to 7?

L68[03:19:01] <Antheus> and it crashed

L69[03:19:05] <Antheus> then reopened

L70[03:19:32] <Ember_Primrose> wanting to move from hexchat

L71[03:20:05] <Antheus> Ember_Primrose, just get a good 'ol fashioned pidgeon

L72[03:20:15] <Ember_Primrose> :/

L73[03:20:21] <Ember_Primrose> prolly my best bet

L74[03:20:22] <Ember_Primrose> tbh

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L76[03:20:36] zsh sets mode: +v on Vexaton

L77[03:23:07] <Ember_Primrose> %seen lizzy

L78[03:23:07] <MichiBot> Ember_Primrose: lizzy was last seen 285d 13h 8m 47s ago.

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L80[03:23:17] <Ember_Primrose> O.o

L81[03:23:28] <Ember_Primrose> %seen Lizzy

L82[03:23:28] <MichiBot> Ember_Primrose: Lizzy was last seen 9h 10m 2s ago.

L83[03:23:34] <Ember_Primrose> ah

L84[03:24:30] <Ember_Primrose> %tell Lizzy I need your help setting up Quassel when youv'e got the time, as KAV is constantly deleting hexchat when it crashes

L85[03:24:30] <MichiBot> Ember_Primrose: Lizzy will be notified of this message when next seen.

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L87[03:26:18] <Antheus> This game is just as fun as I remembered

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L89[03:42:52] <Izaya> pidgin is horrible for IRC though

L90[03:48:47] <ping> Izaya, triggered

L91[03:49:05] <ping> rant about open source software

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L94[03:57:49] <Izaya> what

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L114[06:23:38] <Inari> Inari RNG: A RNG that generates a 1 if someone on the world is orgasming this instant, and a 0 if not

L115[06:24:06] <Mettaton_Fab> wow.

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L117[06:24:34] <Mettaton_Fab> but how can it find out if someone has an orgasm?

L118[06:24:43] <Inari> Magic

L119[06:49:17] <Forecaster> it'd always output 1

L120[06:49:23] <Forecaster> :P

L121[06:53:03] <Inari> Forecaster: Lewd

L122[06:53:11] <Forecaster> :>

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L125[07:03:13] <Inari> http://imgur.com/gallery/qibTiNr

L126[07:05:48] <Inari> http://imgur.com/gallery/FMQQIRf

L127[07:08:56] <Inari> I pity the US

L128[07:09:18] <Forecaster> they'll be fine

L129[07:09:19] <Forecaster> probably

L130[07:09:38] <Inari> They have a pick of liek 4 terrible things xD

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L133[07:34:16] * Lizzy groans

L134[07:35:13] <Lizzy> urghh, ovh still hasn't fucking given me my ips or even confirmed my payment yet ¬_¬

L135[07:35:28] <Forecaster> :/

L136[07:35:34] <Lizzy> Ember_Primrose, why is KAV deleting hexchat?

L137[07:35:47] <Ember_Primrose> idk

L138[07:35:54] <Ember_Primrose> but only when its crashed

L139[07:38:24] <Lizzy> can you add hexchat to the exclusions or something? KAV is the only AV i've heard of that deletes crashing programs

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L141[07:38:38] <Lizzy> which is a fucking stpid thing to do

L142[07:38:38] <Ember_Primrose> i did, but

L143[07:38:39] <Ember_Primrose> idk

L144[07:38:44] <Ember_Primrose> its still being a d

L145[07:39:44] <Lizzy> meh. I can try and help you set up quassel but i have only ever used (i use that term very lightly) it once

L146[07:40:36] <Ember_Primrose> i mean, it doesn't even connect, and eh, idk there is a lot of setting that hexchat has that quassel doesn't

L147[07:40:38] <Forecaster> back before I started using irssi I used leafchat

L148[07:40:51] <Forecaster> it was pretty good

L149[07:40:55] <Ember_Primrose> like ignore invalid ssl certs

L150[07:42:12] * Lizzy is obtaining quassel to test

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L153[07:52:24] <Lizzy> Ember_Primrose, mine connected to the bouncer on an ssl port just fine

L154[07:53:59] <Ember_Primrose> idk what im doing wrong then :/

L155[07:57:31] <Lizzy> i mean, the client didn't have an ssl connection to the core but the core didn't complain about invalid certs when i added the bouncer to it

L156[07:57:57] <Ember_Primrose> like mine won't even connect :/

L157[07:58:18] <Lizzy> :/

L158[07:58:26] <Lizzy> you are using the right ports, yes?

L159[07:58:37] <Ember_Primrose> 4096?

L160[07:58:48] <Lizzy> yep

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L162[08:08:52] <Ember_Primrose> fuckit

L163[08:09:46] <Forecaster> ohno

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L171[09:53:05] * vifino snuggles Lizzy

L172[09:53:18] <vifino> Izaya: Corect.

L173[09:54:07] <vifino> Correct*

L174[09:54:15] <vifino> damit, keyboard.

L175[09:56:11] * Lizzy snuggles vifino

L176[09:56:45] <vifino> i hate my keyboard.

L177[10:01:37] <Saphire> http://forum.project-retrograde.com/index.php what is that o..o

L178[10:02:04] <Forecaster> a url!

L179[10:02:17] <Forecaster> to a forum

L180[10:02:57] <Saphire> http://forum.project-retrograde.com/viewtopic.php?p=3613#p3613 - wai...

L181[10:03:36] <Saphire> Am I reading it wrong or that guy /wrote/ that Hexabootable thing?

L182[10:03:38] <Forecaster> this...

L183[10:03:41] <Forecaster> is really boring

L184[10:03:52] <Saphire> http://skullcode.com/bootstrap/hexboot.txt - aka this

L185[10:04:34] <Forecaster> I don't even know what that's supposed to be

L186[10:06:44] <Saphire> It's a bootable memory editor

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L211[13:20:15] <gamax92> https://www.reddit.com/r/softwaregore/comments/58r2or/

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L213[13:30:10] <Temia> That's really making the rounds.

L214[13:31:15] <Inari> gamax92: That isnt even softwaregore

L215[13:35:39] <gamax92> Inari: that's nice

L216[13:37:32] <gamax92> quite a bit of r/softwaregore isn't software gore, but that's what the reddit has turned into

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L218[13:39:20] <CompanionCube> https://www.reddit.com/r/programminghorror/ would bebetter

L219[13:40:08] <gamax92> this subreddit is very much less active

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L227[13:52:19] <CompanionCube> https://twitter.com/ckolderup/status/789002880246177792 bad error handling is bad.

L228[13:52:20] <MichiBot> Thu Oct 20 02:18:40 CDT 2016 @ckolderup: Github is down, which gave me the opportunity to share this incredible moment with all of you https://t.co/5GHlDMIi3y

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L233[14:50:40] <gamax92> slow day

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L235[14:56:44] <Mettaton_Fab> Ever heard about the Game Deponia?

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L239[15:21:44]

<Forecaster> http://m.imgur.com/gallery/WwQ5B

L240[15:21:53]

<Forecaster> That was a wild ride

L241[15:22:10]

<Forecaster> Also never seen that method of catching animals before

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L244[15:41:49] <Inari> http://imgur.com/gallery/yoSw7Je

L245[15:42:12] <Kodos> In OC's implementation of Lua, is there a difference between 'else if' and 'elseif'

L246[15:43:10] <Inari> As with any lua, else if is else { if() {} }

L247[15:43:14] <Inari> so you'd need another end :P

L248[15:44:03] <Inari> if then elseif end vs. if then else if end end

L249[15:44:08] <Inari> er

L250[15:44:11] <Inari> if then elseif end vs. if then else if then end end

L251[15:44:13] <Inari> of course :P

L252[15:44:28] <Inari> elseif needs a then too

L253[15:44:29] <Inari> screw this

L254[15:44:52] <Inari> I shouldn't try braining on my "no thinking" day

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L260[16:22:13] <Inari> Apparently asking about inequality causes inequality

L261[16:22:14] <Inari> gg

L262[16:24:03] <Antheus> I'm slow cooking this spinach artichoke chicken

L263[16:24:08] <Antheus> it smells so good

L264[16:26:25] <Inari> Miyakoshi is a nice name

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L267[16:38:11] <Forecaster> Inari: where? on tumblr?

L268[16:39:35] <CompanionCube> I'd guess tumblr

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L270[16:41:54] <Tianshee> I need 16 GB array on windows machine for something. But I do not have this amount of RAM.

L271[16:42:22] <Tianshee> If I decide to use HDD for it, what is the best way?

L272[16:44:11] <Lizzy> what do oyu need 16GB of ram for?

L273[16:44:36] <Lizzy> err,lemme rewrite that

L274[16:44:45] <Lizzy> what program needs 16GB of ram?

L275[16:45:00] <Tianshee> Is standard fopen with wb+ ok or it's better to use winapi?

L276[16:45:15] <gamax92> wb+?

L277[16:45:31] <Tianshee> Read/write binary.

L278[16:45:42] <CompanionCube> I have a feeling this won't end well.

L279[16:45:57] <Lizzy> it'd help if we knew what the fuck you were trying to achieve

L280[16:46:42] <Kodos> Tianshee, if you have to ask for help for something like that, you're likely better off not fucking with it

L281[16:47:42] <Tianshee> I don't even know how to call that.

L282[16:47:46] <gamax92> Tianshee: ignoring the angry people here ... yeah that should work fine

L283[16:48:12] <gamax92> visual studio / mingw / tdw likely fully support fopen for windows

L284[16:48:13] <CompanionCube> Tianshee: what do you need a 16GB array for exactly - do you need to hold all that data in memory simultaneously

L285[16:48:51] <Kodos> I'm not angry, I'm just saying. If you don't know what you're doing, you probably shouldn't mess with stuff

L286[16:48:55] <CompanionCube> (ignoring for a moment the existence of swapping/virtual memory.)

L287[16:49:07] <Kodos> I mean, I guess you could, but at the risk of breaking things

L288[16:49:11] <GreazyMcgeezy> Kodos: How is one supposed to learn without breaking shit?

L289[16:49:22] <CompanionCube> ^

L290[16:49:33] <Kodos> GreaseMonkey, just a habit, comes with not being able to afford to replace shit

L291[16:49:39] <gamax92> by learning how to do it properly? so that the first time you do it you don't break stuff?

L292[16:50:05] <gamax92> you learn the same thing but in one you already know ahead of time that doing X is bad, and in the other you do X and find out it's bad

L293[16:50:26] <Forecaster> by asking people who've broken said stuff before :P

L294[16:50:28] <GreazyMcgeezy> Okay, so it's a common mistake to call me GreaseMonkey b/c it's another user here, lol. I didn't know if (I can't remember who) was asking me if I like anime or if they were in fact talking to GreaseMonkey the other day. But now I feel like an asshole...

L295[16:50:38] <Tianshee> Maybe there is something else on windows beyond by fseek, fwrite and fread.

L296[16:51:06] <gamax92> Tianshee: the winapi likely doesn't have fseek fwrite freed and what not.

L297[16:51:11] <GreazyMcgeezy> I don't know anyone who writes production code the first time. No matter how much research has been performed.

L298[16:51:12] <CompanionCube> Tianshee: considering that Windows isn't exactly POSIX compliant, certainly

L299[16:51:15] <Inari> Forecaster: Twitter

L300[16:51:33] <Kodos> GreazyMcgeezy, because tab complete

L301[16:51:37] <CompanionCube> Twitter and Tumblr can have surprisingly high interesections

L302[16:51:43] <gamax92> the compiler has it's own libc that provides those posix functions on top of the winapi

L303[16:51:46] <CompanionCube> at least ideologically

L304[16:51:56] <GreazyMcgeezy> Meaning of course that they haven't been using the language for a decade and knows its intricasies

L305[16:51:58] <Tianshee> Ofc fseek fwrite fread are still working.

L306[16:52:03] <CompanionCube> but then again, Twitter is like that for everything

L307[16:52:25] <Tianshee> I mean there may be other better way.

L308[16:52:30] <GreazyMcgeezy> Yeah, tab complete is nice, but again, does every script you write work 100% of the time, the first time you run it?

L309[16:52:33] <Tianshee> That I dont know.

L310[16:52:47] <CompanionCube> Tianshee: Most likely. What do you need a 16GB-sized array for?

L311[16:53:16] <Inari> Forecaster: Mostly was about someone saying they've been asked how it is to work in their field as a woman and being annoyed at that it shouldn't matter that htey are a woman. And I was saying yeah, in an ideal world it wouldnt, but it does still so people might be interested and such about difficulties etc. And then it was said that the sooner people stop asking it the sooner we reach equality

L312[16:53:20] <Inari> which kinda seems backward to me

L313[16:53:27] <gamax92> Tianshee: in winapi you have OpenFile and ReadFile and CloseHandle

L314[16:53:40] <GreazyMcgeezy> Of course, I'm not a developer, so I may not have a leg to stand on here, but every language I've taken an interest in I typically build a small test environment just so I can break shit.

L315[16:53:56] <GreazyMcgeezy> I learn the best in this environment. Using references, trying shit out, until it works and I know why.

L316[16:54:08] <Inari> But anyway, I'm off to bed :P night

L317[16:54:08] <gamax92> Thog: the posix api gives you fopen and fread and fclose

L318[16:54:14] <gamax92> >_> tab

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L320[16:54:37] <CompanionCube> Inari: to be fair they kinda have a point. We're closer to having an actual meritocracy if people stop giving a fuck about 'how hard it is to do X because <minority factory Y'

L321[16:55:58] <GreazyMcgeezy> Well, I didn't see it, but a friend of mine told me about Morgan Freeman in an interview, and was asked what we as a society should do about racism. His answer, "Stop talking about it".

L322[16:56:41] <GreazyMcgeezy> I think it compares well here.

L323[16:57:09] <CompanionCube> equal opportunity beats equality of outcome every single time.

L324[16:58:05] <GreazyMcgeezy> Saying that giving a job to someone because they are a minority rather than giving it to the most qualified individual is better?

L325[16:58:22] <GreazyMcgeezy> I dont' see how that is better for the employee or the employer

L326[16:58:51] <Forecaster> that's not what equal opportunity is

L327[16:59:08] <CompanionCube> GreazyMcgeezy: that would be affirmative action

L328[16:59:19] <GreazyMcgeezy> So what is equal opportunity?

L329[16:59:24] <GreazyMcgeezy> I'll google it also.

L330[16:59:38] <Skye> things not being equal outcome is a symptom

L331[16:59:41] <CompanionCube> Giving people equal opportunities to succeed, prosper, and do shit without pulling quotas and shit our of your ass.

L332[17:00:21] <Forecaster> or telling someone they can't have the job because factor that has nothing to do with the job

L333[17:00:45] <Tianshee> I'm trying to create optimized kd trees from voxel arrays. I need to store, say, intermediate data, that I will need in not very predictable order. Maybe I'm using very inefficient algoritm, but it's best I could think of at the moment.

L334[17:01:00] <GreazyMcgeezy> Hmm....

L335[17:01:03] <GreazyMcgeezy> Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) means freedom from discrimination on the basis of sex, color, religion, national origin, disability and age. ... Affirmative action is deemed a moral and social obligation to amend historical wrongs and eliminate the present effects of past discrimination.

L336[17:01:06] <Forecaster> or paying them less

L337[17:01:17] <CompanionCube> Basically, solve what's causing the problem, don't pretend it's not there by mandating diversity

L338[17:03:07] * CompanionCube is happy that, barring a few exceptions, affirmative action is illegal under UK law

L339[17:03:28] <GreazyMcgeezy> I guess I was just confused because previously on applications I've seen "We're an equal opportunity employer" yet it also boasted a checkbox for "I'm a minority".

L340[17:03:35] <Skye> CompanionCube, affirmative action would be useful to get around catch-22 type necessaries.

L341[17:03:55] <GreazyMcgeezy> So, in taking practical examples, I supposed I tied those laces together.

L342[17:04:23] <GreazyMcgeezy> Yet, now, I find it hard to understand how both of those were on the same application since they're literally polar opposites.

L343[17:04:40] <GreazyMcgeezy> Why does it matter if you're a minority if it's an equal opportunity employer.

L344[17:05:04] <CompanionCube> GreazyMcgeezy: because legislation likely means they have to know it for X

L345[17:05:23] <GreazyMcgeezy> Then send out a survey

L346[17:05:25] <GreazyMcgeezy> Lol

L347[17:05:56] <GreazyMcgeezy> To the employer it shouldn't matter less.

L348[17:06:08] <GreazyMcgeezy> And shouldn't be part of the hiring process whatsoever

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L350[17:08:03] <CompanionCube> it's also most likely good marketing to people who like thisw very much: 'Come work for us! We're progressive and inclusive, see we have X% minority employees!'

L351[17:08:32] * CompanionCube admits to being rather cynical

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L353[17:15:01] <GreazyMcgeezy> I've heard that the gov't gives additional tax incentives for companies with a certain % of minority workers. Unsure if any truth behind it, but it's an interesting thought.

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L358[17:26:24] <GreazyMcgeezy> CompanionCube: So this would be Affirmative Action eh? And yeah, looks like there is truth to my previous statement. https://www.doleta.gov/business/incentives/opptax/

L359[17:26:35] <CompanionCube> GreazyMcgeezy: idk

L360[17:26:42] * CompanionCube is reading reddit

L361[17:27:47] <GreazyMcgeezy> Cool, TL;DR: I was right, our gov't incentivises hiring minorities.

L362[17:29:17] <GreazyMcgeezy> Actually, I was wrong. It referenced "Target groups" and I made an assumption. It's actually not minorities at all.

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L378[18:32:25] <S3> phew

L379[18:32:30] <S3> gamax92: so I have modified classic.lua from rxi

L380[18:32:36] <S3> it's a really nice super tiny oop lib

L381[18:33:23] <S3> it's quite bare, but I implemented a meta programming api to iy

L382[18:33:24] <S3> it*

L383[18:33:40] <S3> Which I will likely use for OCBSD

L384[18:34:11] <GreaseMonkey> there's a reason i like to sort tab completes by last spoken

L385[18:34:24] <GreaseMonkey> oh shit hello

L386[18:34:34] <S3> hey GreaseMonkey

L387[18:34:39] <S3> ltns

L388[18:34:42] <GreaseMonkey> i've finally started doing hardware shit

L389[18:34:45] <GreaseMonkey> yep

L390[18:34:51] <S3> znc was down..

L391[18:35:01] <GreaseMonkey> most recent achievement: got stuff to print on an HD44780

L392[18:35:08] <S3> oh really? Some guy bought me a launchpad the other day and dropped it off at my place, it's quite neat

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L394[18:35:22] <S3> it's a tiny UART embedded MSP430

L395[18:35:28] <GreaseMonkey> using the exact same AVR code i wrote for the project yesterday which was to control a sega master system's joypad port

L396[18:35:45] <GreaseMonkey> and i was playing a game on that using a ps3 controller

L397[18:35:52] <GreaseMonkey> it's so wrong it's right

L398[18:35:58] <S3> heh

L399[18:36:09] <S3> how different is the ps3 controller protocol from the ps1?

L400[18:36:19] <S3> because both are serial, technically..

L401[18:36:20] <GreaseMonkey> PS3 is literally USB (but a bit derpy)

L402[18:36:23] <S3> right

L403[18:36:25] <GreaseMonkey> PS1 is quite different

L404[18:36:30] <S3> but I meant the software part of it

L405[18:36:41] <GreaseMonkey> afaik the buttons are mapped to the same indices though

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L407[18:38:10] <GreaseMonkey> it's basically SPI, for a digital pad you send 0x01 'B' 0x00 0x00 0x00 and you get (empty) 0x-- 0x-- buttons1 buttons2

L408[18:38:18] <GreaseMonkey> that's PS1 i'm talking about

L409[18:38:32] <GreaseMonkey> PS2 uses the same protocol but extended for the PS2 controllers which have a few pressure-sensitive buttons

L410[18:38:49] <GreaseMonkey> SMS uses an extended version of the atari joystick wiring

L411[18:39:08] <GreaseMonkey> basicaly provisions for 3 fire buttons but only 2 are actually used on a normal joypad

L412[18:39:13] <GreaseMonkey> basically:

L413[18:39:19] <GreaseMonkey> up dn lf rt +5

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L415[18:39:35] <GreaseMonkey> b1 th GD b2

L416[18:39:44] <gamax92> good to have you back GreaseMonkey

L417[18:39:47] <GreaseMonkey> tie buttons to ground for great justice

L418[18:40:10] <GreaseMonkey> don't let the +5v pin touch the GND pin otherwise what i assume is a circuit breaker will kick in and you will have to hard power-cycle it

L419[18:41:29] <GreaseMonkey> but in all honesty sms controllers are piss easy to actually make

L420[18:41:42] <GreaseMonkey> i do need to fix that bent controller 2 port pin though

L421[18:41:43] <GreaseMonkey> because guess what

L422[18:41:48] <GreaseMonkey> it's the +5V pin

L423[18:41:51] <ping> speak of the devil SPI

L424[18:41:51] <GreaseMonkey> and it's nearly touching the GND pin

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L426[18:42:08] <ping> im currently trying to sniff a proprietary SPI protocol

L427[18:42:12] <ping> woo me

L428[18:42:13] <GreaseMonkey> if you hate SPI you'll be ok with the sega master system as it never uses SPI

L429[18:42:18] <GreaseMonkey> ouch

L430[18:42:36] <ping> yeah

L431[18:42:55] <gamax92> GreaseMonkey: don't we have dividers for a reason?

L432[18:42:59] <GreaseMonkey> hmm, i might disable the COL/OVR code in my emulator and try to do synced outputs

L433[18:43:09] <GreaseMonkey> gamax92: what do you mean by that

L434[18:43:17] <gamax92> so that it's not air between the pins it's a physical thing preventing them from moving and contacting

L435[18:43:26] <ping> GreaseMonkey, how tf do you have a game system without SPI

L436[18:43:47] <GreaseMonkey> ping: because the controller ports were done in such a way that the sound chip couldn't fuck them up?

L437[18:43:53] <ping> UART is worse for interconnecting ICs

L438[18:44:02] <ping> oh you mean controller ports

L439[18:44:06] <ping> i mean internally :v

L440[18:44:06] <GreaseMonkey> yeap

L441[18:44:14] <GreaseMonkey> oh internally there is legitimately no SPI

L442[18:44:17] <GreaseMonkey> at least afaik

L443[18:44:24] <GreaseMonkey> it's all Z80-bus stuff

L444[18:44:28] <ping> ah

L445[18:44:29] <ping> cancer

L446[18:44:46] <ping> which has to be bit-banged by some crappy arduino

L447[18:44:47] <GreaseMonkey> easy to access shit as long as you have the pins/wires to spare

L448[18:44:53] <GreaseMonkey> oh right

L449[18:45:04] <ping> the RPI can bit bang SPI

L450[18:45:13] <ping> i wouldnt trust that lol

L451[18:45:19] <GreaseMonkey> two problems

L452[18:45:21] <ping> not even on linux

L453[18:45:25] <ping> RTOS pl

L454[18:45:28] <ping> pls*

L455[18:45:35] <GreaseMonkey> 1. rpi uses 3.3V and is quite sensitive

L456[18:45:40] <GreaseMonkey> whereas the SMS uses 5V

L457[18:45:44] <GreaseMonkey> 2. ...yeah, linux

L458[18:45:54] <S3> [Cwoooo

L459[18:45:57] <GreaseMonkey> definitely NOT designed for that

L460[18:45:59] <ping> lets not talk about intel atom :D

L461[18:46:04] <S3> I am so retardedly proud of myself

L462[18:46:14] <GreaseMonkey> i will say one thing about intel atom *netbooks* though

L463[18:46:16] <S3> does() now performs super recursion

L464[18:46:21] <GreaseMonkey> the GPU in them is slower than the one in the rpi

L465[18:46:46] <ping> trying to embed windows is one of the worst ideas i have ever heared

L466[18:47:08] <ping> WHYYYYY

L467[18:47:12] <GreaseMonkey> by trying to embed windows are you talking about windows in general, or the entire concept of windows for ARM?

L468[18:47:15] <gamax92> GreaseMonkey: which gpu

L469[18:47:26] <GreaseMonkey> gamax92: GMA 3150 vs VideoCore IV

L470[18:47:41] <gamax92> my intel atom netbook doesn't have that :v

L471[18:47:49] <ping> windows is the shittiest thing i can imagine for crucial tasks SoCs commonly do

L472[18:48:11] <GreaseMonkey> at least linux has realtime kernels available

L473[18:48:16] <GreaseMonkey> which is still not a good choice

L474[18:48:34] <GreaseMonkey> to be blunt i reckon everyone should run preempt kernels at the very least

L475[18:48:55] <GreaseMonkey> although preferably not @ 100Hz, i suspect i built my kernel on here to use that

L476[18:49:27] <ping> realtime linux is great for powerful SoCs over 500Mhz and 100MB dedotated wam

L477[18:49:46] <ping> because you get a lot of safety and debugging capabilities that are impossible with an RTOS

L478[18:50:17] <GreaseMonkey> e.g. raspis?

L479[18:50:20] <S3> EW

L480[18:50:21] <ping> along with an absolute $%^&load of proven reliable software

L481[18:50:25] <S3> raspis are gross

L482[18:50:33] <ping> raspis are more for hobby

L483[18:50:48] <GreaseMonkey> you can run actual vanilla minecraft on a pi3

L484[18:51:07] <S3> at -1fps

L485[18:51:12] <GreaseMonkey> w/ optifine and everything turned down to minimum: 30fps

L486[18:51:22] <GreaseMonkey> just watch out for the GC lag spikes

L487[18:51:26] <S3> lol

L488[18:51:29] <GreaseMonkey> 420MB is a good figure to use

L489[18:51:32] <S3> run FTB ultimate on it

L490[18:51:38] <GreaseMonkey> i said vanilla

L491[18:51:41] <S3> Nooo

L492[18:51:43] <S3> gotta go with FTB

L493[18:51:47] <S3> all the way

L494[18:51:51] <GreaseMonkey> vanilla > pi edition

L495[18:51:52] <S3> make that raspberry pi pay for it

L496[18:51:54] <ping> raspis are actually really overkill for most applications lol

L497[18:51:55] <S3> lol

L498[18:52:07] <GreaseMonkey> hmm if i *do* take that option i will need to run swap over sshfs

L499[18:52:08] <S3> they are always overkill..

L500[18:52:11] <ping> at most you would be driving displays

L501[18:52:21] <ping> like proprietary Qt GUIS

L502[18:52:24] <S3> I have never found a time when a raspi was perfect

L503[18:52:30] <S3> it was either always overkill or underkill

L504[18:52:35] <GreaseMonkey> pi2 upwards is basically a home computer

L505[18:53:02] <S3> I was thinking of using my MSP430 to build myself a FORTH computer

L506[18:53:07] <S3> the problem is it only has 512 bytes of ram

L507[18:53:09] ⇨ Joins: Kimiro (~Dreaming@wnpgmb1204w-ds01-35-96.dynamic.mtsallstream.net)

L508[18:53:10] <S3> so it's be very challenging

L509[18:53:12] <GreaseMonkey> and honestly once the opengl driver hits mainline, it will be surprisingly practical for a home comp

L510[18:53:22] <GreaseMonkey> i thought for a bit you said "only 512MB"

L511[18:53:29] <GreaseMonkey> 512B is definitely a challenge

L512[18:53:31] <S3> 512B

L513[18:53:36] <GreaseMonkey> got 2KB on my arduino

L514[18:53:52] <S3> yes they are very tiny low power chips from TI

L515[18:54:14] <ping> dude

L516[18:54:33] <ping> we have to use 64k ram and 384k flash in robotics

L517[18:54:35] <GreaseMonkey> top speed of 25MHz, not bad

L518[18:54:38] <ping> its soooooooooo bad

L519[18:54:46] <GreaseMonkey> ping: that's because they're fucking wimps

L520[18:55:13] <ping> GreaseMonkey, ive bitched at people in the company personally

L521[18:55:22] ⇦ Quits: Kimiro (~Dreaming@wnpgmb1204w-ds01-35-96.dynamic.mtsallstream.net) (Client Quit)

L522[18:55:22] <GreaseMonkey> the standard arduino has a 16MHz AVR w/ 2KB of RAM and 32KB of flash

L523[18:55:37] <GreaseMonkey> wait, what kind of robots are you making?

L524[18:55:59] <GreaseMonkey> if you're doing video processing then you'd want something that at least compares to a raspi

L525[18:56:10] <GreaseMonkey> LIDAR on the other hand is probably OK

L526[18:56:14] <GreaseMonkey> also what CPUs are we talking about?

L527[18:56:16] ⇦ Quits: Nachtara (~Nachie@173-22-110-5.client.mchsi.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

L528[18:56:48] <ping> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh0MoPNvHuE

L529[18:56:48] <MichiBot> VEX U 2016 Nothing But Net World Championship Final 1 | length: 3m 17s | Likes: 8 Dislikes: 1 Views: 5,150 | by Vex Vortex | Published On 24/4/2016

L530[18:57:06] <ping> GreaseMonkey, single core ARM cortex m3, no MMU or MPU or FPU

L531[18:57:23] <GreaseMonkey> and what kind of processing are we talking about

L532[18:58:01] <ping> live position tracking, up to 8 analog sensors and 12 digital sensors, plus UART and i2c devices

L533[18:58:14] <ping> signal processing of analog sensors

L534[18:58:30] <ping> translating joystick movement

L535[18:58:49] ⇨ Joins: Kimiro (~Dreaming@wnpgmb1204w-ds01-35-96.dynamic.mtsallstream.net)

L536[18:58:51] <ping> controlling 10 motors with low latency to joystick movement

L537[18:59:13] <GreaseMonkey> alright, what clock rate?

L538[18:59:33] <GreaseMonkey> are you saying 64K/384K is too small or too big?

L539[18:59:41] <ping> small

L540[18:59:43] <ping> Speed - 90 MIPS (Million Instructions Per Second)

L541[18:59:47] <ping> idk clock speed

L542[19:00:01] <GreaseMonkey> probably 90MHz unless they have slow instruction timings

L543[19:00:20] <ping> the SoC is a Cortex-m3 based STM32(tm) f103 package VD

L544[19:00:46] <ping> www.st.com/content/st_com/en/products/microcontrollers/stm32-32-bit-arm-cortex-mcus/stm32f1-series/stm32f103/stm32f103vd.html

L545[19:01:02] ⇦ Quits: Kimiro (~Dreaming@wnpgmb1204w-ds01-35-96.dynamic.mtsallstream.net) (Client Quit)

L546[19:01:03] <ping> 72 MHz maximum frequency, 1.25 DMIPS/MHz (Dhrystone 2.1

L547[19:01:22] <GreaseMonkey> also what are you programming them in?

L548[19:01:38] <GreaseMonkey> and it'll be 72MHz mathwise

L549[19:02:35] <GreaseMonkey> because if you aren't programming them in C and assembly, you're probably going to suffer when using that chip

L550[19:03:22] *** Guest90373 is now known as fingercomp

L551[19:03:53] <GreaseMonkey> ladder logic may be OK though

L552[19:05:22] <GreaseMonkey> nice thing with C, if you use none of the stdlib and you strip out the compiler bullshit sections it's pretty damn small

L553[19:05:22] <S3> ladder logic is fun

L554[19:05:37] <S3> GreaseMonkey: assembly of course

L555[19:05:47] <S3> C generates too much code to use

L556[19:05:51] <ping> GreaseMonkey, im personally programming it in C++

L557[19:05:54] <S3> 512B is not enough for a C runtime

L558[19:06:02] <GreaseMonkey> how much C++ stuff have you stripped out?

L559[19:06:10] <S3> C++ is horrible!

L560[19:06:11] <GreaseMonkey> erm, C++-specific stuff

L561[19:06:18] <ping> C++ is great

L562[19:06:18] <GreaseMonkey> e.g. -fno-rtti

L563[19:06:22] <S3> C++ is evil

L564[19:06:23] <ping> yes no rtti

L565[19:06:27] <ping> no exceptions

L566[19:06:38] <ping> thats about it

L567[19:06:45] <S3> every feature that supposedly made C++ great higher level non systems languages do better at now anyways

L568[19:06:56] <ping> also on embedded the entire C/C++ runtime isnt included, in fact it mostly doesnt exist at all

L569[19:07:13] <ping> C++ is great for embedded development

L570[19:07:22] <ping> it just turns into namespaced C

L571[19:07:34] <ping> obv you gotta avoid using the heap

L572[19:07:38] <GreaseMonkey> so you are literally using just one C++ feature?

L573[19:07:39] <ping> and copy constructor

L574[19:07:42] <GreaseMonkey> if so, not bad

L575[19:07:47] <GreaseMonkey> oh right

L576[19:07:52] <GreaseMonkey> you're still fighting the language

L577[19:07:57] <ping> well classes too, and overloads just for the sake of prettyness

L578[19:08:05] <ping> its better than plain C

L579[19:08:16] <GreaseMonkey> y'know what else is better than plain C?

L580[19:08:20] <GreaseMonkey> C with preprocessor defines

L581[19:08:28] <S3> GreaseMonkey: COBOL

L582[19:08:30] <S3> just kidding

L583[19:08:44] <ping> large projects coded by different people gets crazy in C

L584[19:08:50] <ping> you have to make sure no symbols collide

L585[19:09:01] <ping> make sure none of the #defines in headers collide

L586[19:09:20] <ping> and your namespace gets cluttered so RIP autocomplete

L587[19:09:54] ⇨ Joins: Jakemichie97 (Jakemichie@ipv6.9.lambda.elitebnc.org)

L588[19:09:54] <GreaseMonkey> i said something like this in an interview (the wording was different): classes are like structs except they abstract away the implementation details and limit your control over how stuff is actually organised

L589[19:10:18] <S3> sometimes ada can be a fun language

L590[19:10:18] <GreaseMonkey> one of the interviewers said something like "that's pretty much how a C developer would describe it"

L591[19:10:45] <S3> Rust is a really fun language

L592[19:10:59] <GreaseMonkey> S3: how much flashmem do you have for your MSP and is it directly mapped to memory?

L593[19:11:03] <S3> Works very well as an alternative to C for low level code too

L594[19:11:15] <GreaseMonkey> dafny's a really fun language, pity it's .NET

L595[19:11:22] <S3> GreaseMonkey: iirc, it's harvard, and lemme check

L596[19:11:30] <S3> I said that backwards but

L597[19:12:00] <GreaseMonkey> wait shit i thought for a moment it was just another ARM, please forgive me

L598[19:13:43] <GreaseMonkey> still amuses me that AMD CPUs have an ARM in them

L599[19:14:16] <GreaseMonkey> also still shocked that i managed to pass ZEXALL in under two days

L600[19:15:04] <ping> C++ classes are awful i cant lie

L601[19:15:29] <ping> the "safety" they provide is bullshit and end up in frustration and broken dream

L602[19:15:32] <ping> dreams

L603[19:16:04] <GreaseMonkey> y'know another great way to fuck things up?

L604[19:16:06] <GreaseMonkey> overloading

L605[19:16:20] <GreaseMonkey> sorry but we can't max a float and an int

L606[19:16:32] <ping> ?

L607[19:16:56] <ping> overloading is convenient

L608[19:17:14] <ping> using operator overloading is just cancer

L609[19:17:17] <GreaseMonkey> function overloading: we make it so you don't have to be as explicit, by making you be more explicit when it inevitably fucks up

L610[19:18:07] <ping> i dont think function overloading is bad at all

L611[19:18:19] <GreaseMonkey> op overloading does help with readability when done sensibly, but i'd still rather have my _mm_add_ps() and all that shit if it means i don't have to use C++

L612[19:18:40] <GreaseMonkey> function overloading can get horrible if it's not sure which version to use

L613[19:18:40] <ping> there are a lot of cases where people use it when its completely unnecessary and is just confusing

L614[19:18:52] <ping> like

L615[19:19:00] <GreaseMonkey> i think you pretty much summed up the entirety of C++

L616[19:19:07] <ping> XD

L617[19:19:14] <S3> GreaseMonkey: so the datasheet for this 20 pin DIP

L618[19:19:14] <ping> yeppp

L619[19:19:16] <S3> is 73 pages

L620[19:19:30] <GreaseMonkey> S3: does it have the instruction set summary at the very least?

L621[19:19:32] <S3> t's a 16 bit harvard RISC

L622[19:19:38] <S3> oh yes

L623[19:19:46] <GreaseMonkey> oh good

L624[19:19:53] <S3> huh

L625[19:19:59] <S3> wakes up from standby mode in < 1 micro second

L626[19:20:16] <S3> ns at 270 micro amps active state

L627[19:20:20] <S3> runs*

L628[19:20:32] <S3> at 1Mhz that is

L629[19:20:43] <S3> ude this chip would run on a clock battery for years..

L630[19:20:46] <S3> dude*

L631[19:20:51] <GreaseMonkey> wew

L632[19:21:21] <S3> okay so I was wrong, this is the upgraded newer MSP430

L633[19:21:27] <S3> it has 1KB of ram which is a LOT better

L634[19:21:29] <S3> but still really bad

L635[19:21:36] <S3> I've seen 128 256 and 512B ones

L636[19:22:00] <S3> wait.. no this ,may be the 512B one..

L637[19:22:16] <S3> PFFT ROFL

L638[19:22:30] <S3> 512B of ram, 8KB of flash..

L639[19:22:36] <S3> GreaseMonkey: ^

L640[19:22:42] <GreaseMonkey> looks like fun

L641[19:23:02] <S3> ou can get a 32KB of flash one with 1KB of ram

L642[19:23:24] <S3> well at least it's running straight from flash

L643[19:23:29] <GreaseMonkey> ah good

L644[19:23:40] <GreaseMonkey> does that have a DSP?

L645[19:23:41] <S3> has i^2c and UART..

L646[19:23:44] <S3> hmmmm

L647[19:23:55] <GreaseMonkey> so basically standard microcontroller fare?

L648[19:24:39] <S3> SPI.. well there's an ADC

L649[19:24:44] <S3> but no DAC

L650[19:24:48] <GreaseMonkey> aww

L651[19:24:54] <S3> so I mean

L652[19:25:00] <S3> you could do some basic DSP stuff

L653[19:25:11] <S3> but no crazy fun analog stuff without external circuitry

L654[19:25:27] <S3> I dunno if it has DSP instructions, it's RISC

L655[19:26:42] <GreaseMonkey> on a different note, i dunno why my attempt to access the sms2 i/o hardware directly failed

L656[19:27:12] <GreaseMonkey> i've been told that i'm supposed to use a pulldown resistor in order to use the pins that need to be pulled low

L657[19:28:08] <GreaseMonkey> but when i was messing around with the controller port it turns out that 1. it wasn't necessary, and 2. if i held every pin high the SMS would read it all as pulled to ground anyway

L658[19:28:41] <S3> I thought you said you don't do hardware

L659[19:28:56] <GreaseMonkey> i'm starting to do hardware

L660[19:28:59] <S3> heh

L661[19:29:06] <GreaseMonkey> amount of solder used: none

L662[19:29:21] <S3> just don't get into that fanboyism and use super crazy chips to do everything thinking old chips are bad

L663[19:29:23] <GreaseMonkey> it's surprising how, well, not-scary the sega master system is

L664[19:29:50] <GreaseMonkey> one day, one fucking day, i will make that z80-based computer i've always wanted to make which i haven't really got a proper design for

L665[19:30:45] <S3> heh.

L666[19:30:56] <S3> you know I'm working on a project that involves multiple PCB boards

L667[19:30:58] ⇦ Quits: BearishMushroom (~BearishMu@90-231-174-194-no159.tbcn.telia.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

L668[19:31:02] <S3> with some cool people

L669[19:31:02] <GreaseMonkey> and if i can get a lot more of those easy wire things that you get in the arduino kit i got for a present, i will probably still get away with not soldering... although the HD44780 clone i have (convinced it's a clone, it only has one font set) may have to be the exception

L670[19:31:51] <S3> GreaseMonkey: and the thing is about our project, is that the one pcb board that handles emergency real time system shutdown operations, has a 6502 on it.

L671[19:32:01] <GreaseMonkey> excellent

L672[19:32:22] <GreaseMonkey> z80 vs 6502, gogogo

L673[19:32:25] <S3> well, we wanted something that has a very simple architecture, easy to debug, hard to fail once you get working

L674[19:32:37] <S3> something that could be dependable

L675[19:32:46] <GreaseMonkey> how easy is it to get a 6502 running off ROM?

L676[19:32:53] <S3> very,

L677[19:33:10] <GreaseMonkey> also for the z80 comp i want to make, erm... which do you prefer, 40xx or 74xx?

L678[19:33:27] <S3> both series have their uses

L679[19:33:30] <GreaseMonkey> because i will DEFINITELY be using chips from at least one of those series

L680[19:33:51] <S3> 74 is where you will find most of your basic logic stuff.

L681[19:34:09] <S3> what you should be paying attention to is fan in / fan out

L682[19:34:09] <GreaseMonkey> i thought 40xx also had that stuff but i could be wrong

L683[19:34:19] <GreaseMonkey> ok, what *is* that

L684[19:34:20] <S3> it has some logic yes

L685[19:34:43] <GreaseMonkey> from my understanding in order to get a z80 to run you pretty much need to power it, give it a clock, and if you just want to run the program counter while feeding NOPs into it you just tie the data pins to ground

L686[19:34:50] <GreaseMonkey> 0x00 = NOP

L687[19:34:55] <S3> well, ever seen a chip say that it can provide a maximum sourcing current of say 100 miliamps to its output pins?

L688[19:35:18] <GreaseMonkey> lemme guess, it can't really?

L689[19:35:29] <S3> if you have say a 74LS04 it will have a particular current input when its input is low, and when its input is high

L690[19:35:52] <S3> fan out is when you have one chip driving a bunch of others

L691[19:36:01] <S3> fan in is the inverse

L692[19:36:25] <S3> but yeah fan out is your biggest killer

L693[19:36:31] <GreaseMonkey> so basically, you probably don't want to have 20 chips which draw 10mA being driven by a chip w/ a 100mA limit?

L694[19:36:36] <S3> right

L695[19:37:10] <GreaseMonkey> also, any voltage regulators you can recommend for +5V output?

L696[19:37:13] <S3> i mean it's now hard to figure that much out.. lemme see if I can't find a sheet for you

L697[19:37:19] <GreaseMonkey> taken from a 9V supply

L698[19:37:21] <S3> there's a cheat sheet that's good for some

L699[19:37:44] <GreaseMonkey> fuck i think i've just damned myself to getting a multimeter one day

L700[19:38:04] <GreaseMonkey> ...and also a soldering iron which doesn't suck

L701[19:38:18] <S3> be careful with multimeters

L702[19:38:23] <S3> they'r eusually pretty sensitive

L703[19:38:28] <GreaseMonkey> ah right

L704[19:38:32] <S3> I've fried so many fuses by sticking mine into AC outlets

L705[19:38:38] <S3> not saying you'll be doing that..

L706[19:38:49] <GreaseMonkey> i don't think i'll be analysing a 9V power supply

L707[19:38:53] <S3> but I wasn't paying attention and had it on the wrong setting and BAM

L708[19:38:56] <GreaseMonkey> but would 9V fuck one up?

L709[19:39:13] <S3> no. most modern multimeters are nice enough

L710[19:39:17] <GreaseMonkey> phew

L711[19:39:28] <S3> really, REALLY old analog ones it could compress / decompress the coil

L712[19:39:30] <S3> which was bad

L713[19:39:37] <S3> if it wasnt rated for it

L714[19:39:55] <S3> nd some old digital ones may have burnt out

L715[19:40:22] <S3> when measuring voltages it's not easy to fry em

L716[19:40:27] <S3> measuring current is another animal

L717[19:40:30] <S3> always make sure you have a load

L718[19:40:32] <S3> always

L719[19:41:24] <GreaseMonkey> by "have a load" what do you mean?

L720[19:41:33] <S3> other than that, the best voltmeter has an input impedence of infinity ohms, and the best ammeter has an input impedence of 0.

L721[19:41:47] <S3> imagine you're checking current from a maybe broken laptop power supply

L722[19:42:09] <S3> if you don't have a load itl probably blow the fuse since your fused ammeter input will probably only be like 500mA

L723[19:42:12] <S3> or less

L724[19:42:20] <S3> (be careful about the unfused one)

L725[19:42:34] <S3> so you stick a resistor or a DC light bulb on it or something

L726[19:42:41] <S3> and measure current through that

L727[19:43:01] <GreaseMonkey> any advice for using a 7805?

L728[19:43:06] <GreaseMonkey> ah alright

L729[19:43:24] <S3> why do you need a voltage regulator?

L730[19:43:45] <GreaseMonkey> mostly so i can scale 9V down to 5V

L731[19:44:02] <S3> why not use a voltage divideR?

L732[19:44:31] <GreaseMonkey> eh, i thought the 7805 was a fairly standard part, what's the diff here?

L733[19:45:06] <S3> well, 7805 has an op amp in it, regulators are useful it's just not hard to do it using other means

L734[19:45:16] <S3> however using only a divider can cause confusion

L735[19:45:26] <S3> because voltage dividers only work ideally when no current is being drawn

L736[19:46:11] <S3> so I usually use a voltage divider to set a reference voltage and send it into an op amp

L737[19:46:30] <S3> whic has ideally infinite input impedence but is actually more like a several gigaohm / teraohm resistor

L738[19:47:52] <GreaseMonkey> i'm going to have some lunch, afk

L739[19:49:03] <S3> cool. btw, this is a pretty simple regulator wireup: http://i.stack.imgur.com/FDFt1.jpg. It's simple, but you can't always find the capacitors you want

L740[19:49:11] <S3> if you use an op amp, you can get away with just using resistors.

L741[19:51:49] <S3> GreaseMonkey: also, you'll want to use cmos

L742[19:52:01] <S3> some 74 series are cmos, be careful, but most are ttl

L743[19:52:14] <S3> I don't remember there being any ttl 4xxx

L744[19:52:44] <S3> okay 74HC is cmos

L745[19:52:54] <S3> or any 74C

L746[19:53:22] <S3> just pay attention, CMOS is not just better variable voltage, it's lower power!

L747[19:53:53] <S3> this is because cmos uses a transistor instead of a resistor for a pullup.

L748[19:54:18] <S3> so the transistors in cmos only use measurable current when switching, but not when switched on or off completely

L749[20:02:45] <GreaseMonkey> ah alright

L750[20:03:21] <S3> you'll also face decisions like, schmitt trigger, or not, etc

L751[20:03:35] <S3> all are specific use cases

L752[20:04:30] <S3> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Op-Amp_Schmitt_Trigger.svg/2000px-Op-Amp_Schmitt_Trigger.svg.png

L753[20:04:38] <S3> schmitt trigger input ^

L754[20:04:46] <S3> eally frigging useful

L755[20:05:30] <GreaseMonkey> what is a schmitt trigger for?

L756[20:06:14] <S3> fast responsiveness.

L757[20:06:58] <GreaseMonkey> just looked it up, looks really useful

L758[20:07:08] <S3> yes.

L759[20:07:21] <S3> well that diagram is just an op amp

L760[20:07:41] <S3> you're basically forcing the op amp to saturate

L761[20:07:55] <GreaseMonkey> sweet

L762[20:07:58] <S3> and causing the output voltage to raise and drop really fast

L763[20:08:20] <S3> because not counting that resistor on top, the resistance between the input and the output is pretty much infinity through that op ampo

L764[20:08:48] <S3> GreaseMonkey: so.. something infina and I have been working on sorta

L765[20:09:05] <S3> is a course of digital logic in Minecraft with a modpack to follow along providing project red, etc.

L766[20:09:18] <GreaseMonkey> so basically analogue redstone?

L767[20:09:33] <GreaseMonkey> or did i misread that badly

L768[20:09:40] <S3> it covers boolean algebra and multiplexers and plas and registers and flip flops and eventually accumulator and cpu architeture

L769[20:09:57] <S3> I may be doing some comparator analog simulation

L770[20:10:04] <S3> using the comparator block

L771[20:10:13] <GreaseMonkey> ah

L772[20:10:45] <S3> boolean algebra is weird as shit

L773[20:11:23] <S3> I got a book on it..

L774[20:11:33] <S3> that class was annoying.

L775[20:11:41] <GreaseMonkey> is that where they talk about multiplying as being AND

L776[20:11:50] <S3> sure

L777[20:12:33] <S3> x + (y + z) = (x + y) + z x (y z) = (x y) z

L778[20:12:34] <S3> :)

L779[20:12:50] <S3> hat's the associative identity..

L780[20:13:06] <GreaseMonkey> ah righty

L781[20:13:17] <S3> yeah I want to skip all that stuff for our twitch series

L782[20:13:23] <S3> I mean it's useful but why bother..

L783[20:13:37] <S3> I want to get right into truth tables.

L784[20:13:50] <GreaseMonkey> yeah that's a good place to start

L785[20:14:25] <S3> We may demonstrate kmaps at some point but only as a demonstration not as an actual thing

L786[20:14:35] <S3> kmaps get extremely complex

L787[20:15:02] <S3> imagine dealing with a 7D cube pretty much

L788[20:15:43] <S3> however we WILL be going over sequential macines

L789[20:18:15] <GreaseMonkey> i've written stuff that renders 4D graphics projected onto a screen, i know it gets really fucked up

L790[20:18:37] <S3> well I usually do it on chaulk board

L791[20:19:04] <S3> GreaseMonkey: you know I've started to really wonder why we call 2D 2D

L792[20:19:14] <S3> because it's not technically 2D relative to say the video controller

L793[20:19:49] <S3> I mean imagine you have a 2D image

L794[20:20:08] <S3> you have an x coordinate, and a y coordinate, but there's also an output

L795[20:20:18] <S3> the color of the pixel is a function of x and y

L796[20:20:36] <S3> so a flat picture is technically 3D

L797[20:20:52] <S3> only x and y are related to a position

L798[20:21:16] <GreaseMonkey> i see it differently

L799[20:21:21] <GreaseMonkey> x and y select a pixel

L800[20:21:24] <S3> in a way it makes sens to me to consider it 2D or 3D

L801[20:21:32] <GreaseMonkey> well, basically, they select a colour value

L802[20:21:35] <GreaseMonkey> it's a 2D array

L803[20:21:40] <S3> right

L804[20:21:59] <GreaseMonkey> when you have a 3D image, one way of constructing said image is raytracing - that is, cast a ray from the camera's view

L805[20:22:15] <GreaseMonkey> you still ultimately have a 2D display

L806[20:22:16] <S3> right

L807[20:22:20] <S3> now we have lots of funky shit

L808[20:22:25] <GreaseMonkey> but it's a view of a 3D environment

L809[20:22:38] <S3> but mathematically if you have a function, y(x)

L810[20:22:43] <GreaseMonkey> rays go forwards, but you use the x and y to move them left/right and up/down

L811[20:22:48] <S3> you represent it using two dimensions

L812[20:22:53] <GreaseMonkey> yes

L813[20:23:00] <GreaseMonkey> and it's a 1-dimensional function

L814[20:23:01] <S3> there ar two planes to graph here

L815[20:23:10] <GreaseMonkey> as there's only one thing you can tweak

L816[20:24:05] <S3> right the independent variable it's called

L817[20:24:29] <GreaseMonkey> it just happens to be that you can represent a 1-dimensional function f(x) on a 2-dimensional surface g(x,y) = (|y-f(x)| < threshold ? 1 : 0)

L818[20:24:33] <S3> but inputs and outputs shouldn't matter, you can graph as many at once as you want

L819[20:24:53] <S3> right

L820[20:25:12] <S3> and you could represent a photo as c(x, y) on a 3 dimensional surface

L821[20:25:23] <GreaseMonkey> yeah

L822[20:25:34] <GreaseMonkey> i'd still say that it's not the output that determines the dimensionality of something but the input

L823[20:25:35] <S3> way back when I was in precalc my professor burned into our heads that dimensions should never be thought as visual

L824[20:25:57] <GreaseMonkey> i get the feeling it was to stop you from trying to visualise 4D data

L825[20:26:05] <GreaseMonkey> which i still cannot do adequately

L826[20:26:11] <S3> he basically forced us to remember that you can display as many as you can possibly think of at any given time or less than, it's really just taking a bunch of timelines and punching wormholes in spacetime

L827[20:26:19] <S3> that's literally how he described it lol

L828[20:26:47] <GreaseMonkey> with 4D you can make the 4th dimension time... or you can just make it ana-kata

L829[20:26:54] <GreaseMonkey> as in, just make it another spatial dimension

L830[20:27:00] <S3> yeah I stopped even picturing dimensions unless I've needed to draw them

L831[20:27:16] <GreaseMonkey> either way, 4d is fucking hard to visualise w/o losing a shitton of information

L832[20:27:22] <S3> yeah

L833[20:28:07] <GreaseMonkey> when projecting onto a 2d plane you lose a whole dimension of information

L834[20:28:12] <S3> the way I see dimensional coordinates now is that the function just happens to exist in those locations at the same time

L835[20:30:49] <GreaseMonkey> as far as i care you can see them however the hell you like, easiest way to see 4D data is in a similar vein to a sudoku grid

L836[20:31:25] <S3> heh

L837[20:31:57] <S3> well what came to my mind was when I looked into simplex noise lately

L838[20:32:22] <S3> I've been writing a game

L839[20:32:44] <S3> it's a clone of dwarf fortress sorta, written in Lua, with modding in mind and a client/server model

L840[20:32:59] <GreaseMonkey> ah alright

L841[20:33:25] <S3> but the heightmap of my terrain is literally simplex noise, which I represent like grayscale images, you have x, y and the value of the coordinate pair

L842[20:33:29] <S3> and thats your Z

L843[20:33:37] <S3> (if you think of Z as up and down)

L844[20:33:43] ⇦ Quits: gx-fm (~gx-fm@130-191-142-83.office.freshmail.pl) (Remote host closed the connection)

L845[20:33:45] <S3> I mean I think of Y as up and down but

L846[20:33:55] <S3> so to me it's literally like y(x, z)

L847[20:34:16] <S3> I have always percieved 3D mesh as forward slicing through objects

L848[20:34:22] <S3> with vertical slices

L849[20:35:04] <S3> but the idea is to use simplex noise and then pipe all of the heightmap data into the octree

L850[20:35:09] <S3> which represents the map chunks

L851[20:35:26] <S3> and then from there decide what I'm gonna do about perlin worms for cabves or something

L852[20:35:38] <S3> however, I have no idea how the frig I will handle river generation, etc

L853[20:36:23] <S3> I believe rivers are generally done with erosion particles using procedural generation...

L854[20:37:22] <S3> was hoping for somebody here to be smart heh

L855[20:37:27] <GreaseMonkey> it is pretty much y(x, z) for a heightmap yes

L856[20:38:03] <GreaseMonkey> you can use another layer of simplex noise to construct rivers, once it's past a given threshold you can make a cut

L857[20:39:00] <GreaseMonkey> personally i use 3D plasma noise and add a multiple of the y axis to the result

L858[20:40:04] <S3> plasma eh

L859[20:40:26] <S3> t will probably be a while before octree stuff is all done

L860[20:42:17] <S3> I need to create a recursive octree object in Lua that translates x, y, and z coordines into octree nodes

L861[20:43:15] <GreaseMonkey> plasma noise is no way near as good as simplex noise but it's still somewhat passable

L862[20:43:17] <S3> if I am smart I'll create the translate functions so that it will work backworks recursively for faster lookups

L863[20:43:26] <GreaseMonkey> thing is though i wrote this all in C

L864[20:44:09] <S3> I kinda wanted to use Perl

L865[20:44:17] <S3> but I want it to be super easy to mod like minetest

L866[20:44:31] <S3> with the idea of server size mods only

L867[20:45:05] <S3> the way the server /client protocol works is that it actually sends out octree updates, so you can easily make 3D mapping programs, etc.

L868[20:45:52] <GreaseMonkey> ah righty

L869[20:45:57] <S3> I'm using messagepack to create the protocol with a downside of fragmentation.. but

L870[20:46:12] <GreaseMonkey> TCP or UDP wait silly question

L871[20:46:25] <GreaseMonkey> considering who i'm talking to :)

L872[20:46:49] <S3> for now it's tcp just to get development going. I'll change it later.

L873[20:46:52] <GreaseMonkey> also, please make sure there's some way of doing some clientside stuff, mostly thinking of GUIs

L874[20:47:03] <S3> right

L875[20:47:11] <S3> I want people to feel free to make their own

L876[20:47:17] <GreaseMonkey> the other thing, please make your file downloads faster than minetest's

L877[20:47:18] <S3> like I will probably make a perl one for dev testing

L878[20:47:26] <S3> ahahaha

L879[20:47:52] <S3> and the reason why I want to use perl for my dev client test while I',m building this is because Perl has much better ncurses support..

L880[20:48:18] <S3> and I'm just translating 16 bit item IDs to UTF 16 XD

L881[20:48:29] <S3> well it's UTF 8 but

L882[20:48:40] <S3> I wanted it to be easy to build

L883[20:49:01] <S3> I'd love to use uuids or something

L884[20:49:35] *** Tiktalik is now known as a

L885[20:49:42] <S3> itl be kinda neat having a dwarf fortress like game with an infinitely (relatively) sized map

L886[20:49:46] <GreaseMonkey> i use 64-bit IDs in my engine which i haven't touched in longer than i should

L887[20:49:52] <S3> and more than just dwarves for a race

L888[20:50:19] <S3> I figured for now if I mke the object IDs 16 bit

L889[20:50:26] <S3> then it's just directly translatable to a unicode char

L890[20:50:37] <S3> I mean, if I want it to look like a smiley face.. just find that unicode code

L891[20:50:43] <S3> for now

L892[20:50:45] <a> <S3> itl be kinda neat having a dwarf fortress like game with an infinitely (relatively) sized map < lol good luck

L893[20:50:49] <GreaseMonkey> ah righty

L894[20:51:03] <GreaseMonkey> best thing is they can't make it a modern emoji

L895[20:51:19] <S3> oh?

L896[20:51:48] <a> i mean, i guess it /can/ be done

L897[20:51:53] <GreaseMonkey> a lot of them are past the 0xFFFF range

L898[20:52:07] <S3> Well here's the problem, let's say I use UUIDs. the ncurses client for terminal people will need to translate objects to unicode chars

L899[20:52:07] <GreaseMonkey> and a lot of them require combining characters

L900[20:52:12] <GreaseMonkey> at least U+2468 is in there though

L901[20:52:17] <S3> thing is, it's not the server's responsibility to do that

L902[20:52:31] <S3> and it's the server that has the mods

L903[20:52:32] <a> S3: make sure to implement threading

L904[20:52:51] <GreaseMonkey> consider using erlang's threading model

L905[20:52:51] <S3> I'm not so sure a

L906[20:53:06] <S3> U'm using cqueue atm but that's not threading by any means

L907[20:53:11] <GreaseMonkey> it's not so easy for modders to fuck up

L908[20:53:15] <a> threading would solve literally all dwarf fortress's problems! allegedly

L909[20:53:43] <S3> I also have to think about layering

L910[20:53:44] <GreaseMonkey> it would cause new problems if DF used it, mostly it'd start setting computers on fire

L911[20:53:53] <S3> I mean fo rexample, a dwarf on top of a floor tile

L912[20:54:00] <S3> or going through a door

L913[20:54:06] <S3> so each octree node should have layers I think

L914[20:54:36] <S3> sdo you guys know what happens in DF when a dwarf walks by another in a single block width hallway?

L915[20:54:50] *** a is now known as potato

L916[20:54:55] <GreaseMonkey> i've not tried it

L917[20:54:59] <S3> if you were to translate it from the source apparently what happens is one dwarf loes down and lets the other dwarf walk on top of it

L918[20:55:09] <S3> lies*

L919[20:55:11] <S3> sorta

L920[20:56:37] <S3> I also might think about providing pluggable features to extend the network protocol without interfereing with the actual important vanilla stuff

L921[20:57:05] <S3> but that's forever a long ways away

L922[20:57:13] <potato> wait, what are you doing anyway

L923[20:57:22] <S3> ?

L924[20:57:32] <S3> potato: ever play Dwarf Fortress?

L925[20:57:37] <potato> yes

L926[20:58:13] <S3> Well I got sick and tired of the fact that it is no fun to mod or tinker with and half the time too complicated to play after leaving it for a long time and ocming back

L927[20:58:40] <potato> so... now you're making something text-based?

L928[20:58:45] <S3> so I decided to roll my own game like it, that has a client / server model, easy modding, infinite terrain generation, etc

L929[20:58:48] <S3> sure

L930[20:58:58] <potato> why a client/server model?

L931[20:59:09] <S3> cept that the clients are just rendering octree models as 2D text, you could make a 3D voxel client if you really wanted..

L932[20:59:18] <S3> I wanted multiplayer

L933[20:59:23] <potato> fair enough

L934[21:00:08] <Temia> So you've made an MMORL?

L935[21:01:36] <potato> S3: personally, I think graphical tiles with arbitrary IDs would be better because for some reason I forsee you running out of the handy characters you'd like to have and getting into weird shit in short order

L936[21:02:33] ⇦ Quits: johnnyhostile (~irssi@castlevania.blackholegate.net) (Remote host closed the connection)

L937[21:02:40] <S3> potato: right. I mean, I'm thinking of using UUIDs for the entities

L938[21:03:06] <S3> my perl client for dev work will just use UTF-8, I could make a uuid to utf 8 translation table, and just keep up with mods I write or something

L939[21:03:18] <potato> ah

L940[21:03:28] <S3> but that's the problem

L941[21:03:39] <potato> what is?

L942[21:03:40] <S3> new mod comes now you gotta make frigging conversion tables

L943[21:03:48] <S3> and somebody on a graphical client needs to make theirs for the tiles

L944[21:04:05] <S3> so I dunno

L945[21:04:15] <potato> <S3> new mod comes now you gotta make frigging conversion tables < no you don't, the mod author does

L946[21:04:37] ⇨ Joins: johnnyhostile (~irssi@castlevania.blackholegate.net)

L947[21:04:37] <S3> yes but they don't know if you're using a graphical client or UTF-8 or what

L948[21:04:44] <potato> so?

L949[21:04:53] <S3> why would they have control over your characters

L950[21:05:03] <S3> unless everyone prefers my ncurses perl text client with UTF-8

L951[21:05:11] <potato> ...because that's the sensible way to do it?

L952[21:05:42] <S3> I guess what I can figure, is that I doubt anyone will make a 3D client

L953[21:05:59] <potato> they should have to include a UTF-8 character and an 8x8 or whatever size floats your boat for a default tile

L954[21:06:05] <S3> so mod authors can be expected to supply a unicode conversion table and a graphical tile maybe

L955[21:06:09] <S3> or something..

L956[21:06:14] <S3> fuck too much problems :P

L957[21:06:20] <potato> that's really not that bad, though

L958[21:07:14] <S3> compared to other options sure

L959[21:07:27] <potato> stuff like a voxel engine, well

L960[21:07:50] <S3> what I see is people making voxel mapping visualizers

L961[21:07:55] <S3> not necessarily clients

L962[21:07:59] <S3> but maybe that'd work

L963[21:08:24] <potato> if someone wanted to make a voxel engine, they could probably either just display the graphical tile on its side or facing up and lying on the tile below for an easy visual reference

L964[21:09:17] <potato> also 16x16 or something would probably be better than 8x8

L965[21:09:19] <potato> this isn't the 90s

L966[21:09:34] <S3> hmm

L967[21:09:37] <S3> yeah I can see that

L968[21:10:00] <Temia> *70s

L969[21:10:17] <S3> the other issue is people making mods and using the same unicode char. now there will be a query mode like the real df, but I guess you can't do anything about that much besides throw a warning

L970[21:10:31] <potato> S3: what about color?

L971[21:10:51] <S3> hmm

L972[21:11:13] <S3> yeah that's possible. a default color or something. I mean status effects, etc could change that too though

L973[21:11:22] <S3> I mean df does do that..

L974[21:11:25] <S3> blinking, etc

L975[21:11:31] <potato> colors do help a lot with telling stuff apart

L976[21:11:56] <S3> yeah

L977[21:12:02] <S3> maybe something similar to the meta data byte on MC

L978[21:12:06] <S3> that colors wool

L979[21:12:17] <S3> obviously not the same idea

L980[21:13:23] <S3> so, some terminals are 256 color but it's safe to assume that all terminals are 16 color who will play the game

L981[21:13:29] <potato> no it isn't

L982[21:13:33] <S3> why not

L983[21:13:45] <S3> 8 color?

L984[21:13:55] <potato> 256 color terminals aren't very rare these days

L985[21:14:02] <S3> hmm

L986[21:14:20] <S3> I suppose what I can do is treat it like 256 color

L987[21:14:28] <S3> and then clients can then dumb it down if they want

L988[21:14:31] <S3> do some conversion

L989[21:16:31] <potato> yeah

L990[21:16:57] * potato really doubts you're going to run into many people fussing about playing it in the terminal

L991[21:17:16] <S3> lol

L992[21:17:29] <potato> if you do, people are weird.

L993[21:18:16] <potato> like, I'm pretty sure even the most ardent of terminal users have a nice lil' x server going on, and probably a tiling window manager or something

L994[21:19:52] <potato> S3: also, aren't uuids pretty long?

L995[21:22:57] <gamax92> I love videos that are like, lets through random garbage at a neural network and see what it creates!

L996[21:25:36] <CompanionCube> can't you somewhat easily detect 256-color stuff via TERM

L997[21:25:37] * snowden89 fusses about terminals

L998[21:25:46] <snowden89> lol i kid.

L999[21:25:56] <snowden89> I love full color terminal.

L1000[21:26:08] * CompanionCube just wishes he had more than 256 colors

L1001[21:32:15] <S3> refBAH

L1002[21:32:47] <gamax92> CompanionCube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL0oGct1S4Q

L1003[21:32:47] <MichiBot> 256 colors is enough for everyone | length: 14m 56s | Likes: 433 Dislikes: 7 Views: 36,942 | by Bisqwit | Published On 25/2/2011

L1004[21:32:53] <S3> as pie crust says iirc, as a dumbass, you only need 1 bit color, 1 for lowercase and 0 for upper case

L1005[21:33:01] <CompanionCube> some termianls support it, mine doesn't :p

L1006[21:33:04] <S3> potato: that's one concern

L1007[21:33:06] <S3> is length of uuids

L1008[21:33:23] <GreazyMcgeezy> Hey guys, I'm able to get the component.modem.broadcast to work just fine, but the component.modem.send packets arent' being received. Anyone have any ideas on this?

L1009[21:33:32] <GreazyMcgeezy> This is on the wireless card

L1010[21:33:51] <S3> http://pastebin.com/RyMr3Nir

L1011[21:33:54] <S3> here you go guys

L1012[21:33:55] <GreazyMcgeezy> Sending to same port as the broadcast

L1013[21:33:57] <S3> read that its SO WORTH IT

L1014[21:34:01] <S3> it's from #redpower

L1015[21:34:08] <S3> in 2012 heh

L1016[21:34:09] <potato> S3: you could just give everything nice human readable text IDs and have them indexed and sent that way

L1017[21:34:31] <S3> pie_crust was an epic dumbass :d

L1018[21:34:37] <S3> potato: hmmmm

L1019[21:35:04] <S3> problem. buffer based DoS possibilities..

L1020[21:35:11] * GreaseMonkey starts reading

L1021[21:35:13] <S3> meh

L1022[21:35:16] <S3> maybe that'd work

L1023[21:35:17] <potato> S3: I think that's basically what minecraft does

L1024[21:35:26] <S3> is that what they replaced IDs with?

L1025[21:35:36] <GreaseMonkey> and yes, 256 is fine... remind me to watch that vid when i'm not on 3g

L1026[21:35:57] <GreaseMonkey> "32-bit web pages"

L1027[21:36:01] <GreaseMonkey> it's already good

L1028[21:36:03] <S3> <Pie_Crust> Google's colors are 32bits, RPC's are 2bits. (Light green and green)

L1029[21:36:19] <S3> he's talking about the RPC8e from red power 2

L1030[21:36:32] <S3> the 6502/816 hybrid cpu thing

L1031[21:37:53] <gamax92> GreaseMonkey: is Bisqwit, gotta be good

L1032[21:39:13] <GreaseMonkey> i made a game which used mode 13h limits, it wasn't hard... then again i had an auto palette sorter

L1033[21:39:39] <GreazyMcgeezy> I even gave it a unique, easily referenced name for the network card, but still no dice. Only works when in broadcast. Found one post in forum on it, which says use network address, which I am doing.

L1034[21:39:45] <GreaseMonkey> "I do, actualli" DUNNING KRUGER

L1035[21:40:25] <GreazyMcgeezy> Sorry, not setting name on network card, setting address.

L1036[21:40:35] ⇨ Joins: Nachtara (~Nachie@173-22-110-5.client.mchsi.com)

L1037[21:41:18] <GreaseMonkey> "<Pie_Crust> Didz, I dare you to switch to 8bit colors for one whole day and see how many applications and webpages will crash due to incompatibilities."

L1038[21:41:33] <GreaseMonkey> i wonder if you could squeeze 10 quotes out of this and put them into a QDB

L1039[21:41:58] ⇦ Quits: alekso56 (~znc@ti0107a400-1168.bb.online.no) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)

L1040[21:41:59] <CompanionCube> why not just submit the log to bash.org

L1041[21:42:03] <GreaseMonkey> either he's a troll or he's really that stupid

L1042[21:42:47] <GreaseMonkey> fuck it i'm linking this log to a couple of places

L1043[21:43:02] <CompanionCube> GreaseMonkey: where exactly

L1044[21:43:02] <S3> <Pie_Crust> Didz, they DO use 32 bits. If you have NVIDIA, open the panel, switch to 8bit colors, open google and see how ugly it looks.

L1045[21:43:13] <GreaseMonkey> couple of chat rooms i hang out in

L1046[21:43:22] <GreaseMonkey> both full of people who would understand he's full of shit

L1047[21:44:03] <GreaseMonkey> i'm not sure how you would massage an intel GPU into doing an 8-bit output but i suspect it's possible

L1048[21:44:23] * CompanionCube wonders what he'd think of the standard actual packet bit-ness as 1500*8

L1049[21:44:34] <GreazyMcgeezy> So, I take it that this isn't the place for any kind of support for this mod?

L1050[21:44:39] <GreazyMcgeezy> Forum only?

L1051[21:44:48] <GreaseMonkey> GreazyMcgeezy: you just happened to walk in when we were talking about other things

L1052[21:44:53] <CompanionCube> ^

L1053[21:45:00] <GreaseMonkey> lemme just read the backlog

L1054[21:45:01] <GreazyMcgeezy> Ahh, okay no biggie, just wasn't sure.

L1055[21:45:02] <GreazyMcgeezy> Lo

L1056[21:45:12] <S3> OKAY well I guess we have HULU now

L1057[21:45:38] <potato> YOU'RE HULU

L1058[21:45:44] <S3> gf said she was really wanting to watch greys anatomy or some bullshit

L1059[21:45:45] <GreaseMonkey> when you're using component.modem.send you use the address of the computer you're sending to, not the one you're sending from

L1060[21:45:45] ⇦ Quits: Hyst (~cxsss1@CPE-124-189-28-144.bkzh1.cht.bigpond.net.au) (Ping timeout: 206 seconds)

L1061[21:45:49] <GreazyMcgeezy> I've seen a ton of topics, but not much on support so had no clue if I was in right place, lol

L1062[21:45:49] <S3> she said it charged her for one episode

L1063[21:45:53] <GreazyMcgeezy> Yes

L1064[21:45:56] <S3> I asked her, how much was one episode?

L1065[21:46:00] <S3> she goes, "7.99"

L1066[21:46:01] <S3> .....

L1067[21:46:03] <GreaseMonkey> this is the right place but yeah, although asking on the forums might help

L1068[21:46:05] <potato> .-.

L1069[21:46:06] <GreazyMcgeezy> I'm doing that. I set the robot component.modem.address = "blah"

L1070[21:46:27] <GreazyMcgeezy> Then from the server, I component.modem.send("blah", 99, "Test")

L1071[21:46:28] <GreaseMonkey> ...you don't do that

L1072[21:46:35] <GreaseMonkey> wait hmm

L1073[21:46:45] <GreazyMcgeezy> Trying to give myself easily readable address for the robots

L1074[21:46:57] <potato> S3: by the way, pls to open-source server and put it on github or something

L1075[21:46:58] <GreaseMonkey> you do component.modem.address() to find out what the address is

L1076[21:46:58] <GreazyMcgeezy> So I dont' hvae to use those ridiculously insane generated ones

L1077[21:47:02] <GreazyMcgeezy> Yes

L1078[21:47:04] <GreaseMonkey> you don't set component.modem.address

L1079[21:47:06] <GreazyMcgeezy> but you can also set it

L1080[21:47:09] <GreazyMcgeezy> And it sticks

L1081[21:47:10] <potato> that way people can make actually meaningful mods

L1082[21:47:16] <S3> potato: going to

L1083[21:47:33] <GreaseMonkey> ocdoc suggests that's not how it works

L1084[21:47:37] <S3> potato: right now im building the underlying server engine. I'm using rxi classic.lua oop library

L1085[21:47:38] <CompanionCube> ~ocdoc modem

L1086[21:47:38] <ocdoc> http://ocd.cil.li/component:modem

L1087[21:47:45] <S3> and I hacked the shit out of the library

L1088[21:47:47] <potato> nice

L1089[21:47:48] <GreazyMcgeezy> I see. Is there any way that you can easily copy/paste the address on the card?

L1090[21:47:51] <S3> it now supports meta protocol

L1091[21:47:57] <S3> so you can do shit with mixins like

L1092[21:48:05] <S3> if Dwarf:does('mining') then

L1093[21:48:10] * potato has a thought

L1094[21:48:13] <S3> ?

L1095[21:48:22] <GreaseMonkey> i don't believe you can set the address of a network card

L1096[21:48:25] <potato> multiple layers of stuff on the same z-space would be good

L1097[21:48:34] <potato> just in case anyone wants to implement air simulation or something

L1098[21:48:38] <S3> I think I mentioned that earlier potato

L1099[21:48:42] <CompanionCube> I just checked the docs, it's not mentioned

L1100[21:48:43] <S3> because think about it

L1101[21:48:48] <S3> A Dwarf on top of a floor tile

L1102[21:48:58] <S3> I mean how else you gonna do that without using multiple trees?

L1103[21:48:58] <GreaseMonkey> it may look like you've done that but i suspect in reality you've actually just hidden the address function by overwriting it with a string

L1104[21:48:59] <GreazyMcgeezy> If I do a component.modem.address = "blah", then do =compoent.modem.address the output is blah

L1105[21:49:07] <GreaseMonkey> do this

L1106[21:49:11] <GreaseMonkey> =component.modem.address()

L1107[21:49:16] <S3> so I think each octree terminating node will contain a tile object

L1108[21:49:16] <GreaseMonkey> component.modem.address="blah"

L1109[21:49:17] <GreaseMonkey> =component.modem.address()

L1110[21:49:18] <potato> S3: ever heard of ss13?

L1111[21:49:19] <S3> and the tile object will have layers

L1112[21:49:22] <GreaseMonkey> ^ those 3 lines in that order

L1113[21:49:27] <S3> potato: sounds very familiar

L1114[21:49:36] <potato> space station 13, it's a shitty game about spessmen on a spess station

L1115[21:49:44] <GreazyMcgeezy> GreazyMcgeezy> If I do a component.modem.address = "blah", then do =compoent.modem.address the output is bla

L1116[21:49:45] <S3> oh... hmmmm

L1117[21:49:46] <CompanionCube> potato: I should RE the fuck out of BYOND's compiled format some day

L1118[21:49:47] <GreaseMonkey> s/shitty/glorious/

L1119[21:49:47] <MichiBot> <potato> space station 13, it's a glorious game about spessmen on a spess station

L1120[21:49:51] <CompanionCube> ^

L1121[21:49:52] <GreaseMonkey> FTFY

L1122[21:50:06] <GreazyMcgeezy> Couple typos, but gist is same.

L1123[21:50:07] <GreaseMonkey> at this rate i think we should have a server... if we can find a good time i could get you guys on a server a friend has

L1124[21:50:15] <potato> it's glorious and shitty

L1125[21:50:26] <GreazyMcgeezy> I have a server going

L1126[21:50:29] <CompanionCube> GreaseMonkey: won't any VPS capable of running DreamDaemon work

L1127[21:50:32] <potato> i've been afraid to go back to /tg/station ever since i accidentally let out the singularity

L1128[21:50:34] <GreaseMonkey> GreazyMcgeezy: there's a difference between =address and =address()

L1129[21:50:41] ⇨ Joins: alekso56 (~znc@ti0107a400-1168.bb.online.no)

L1130[21:50:43] <GreaseMonkey> CompanionCube: pretty much, it's just a matter of "do we have enough people for it to be fun"

L1131[21:51:10] <CompanionCube> GreaseMonkey: doesn't that depend on the gamme mode

L1132[21:51:13] <GreaseMonkey> we have at least 3 who can play it, and 1 who we are currently trying to sucker into it

L1133[21:51:33] <GreaseMonkey> CompanionCube: if you have less than 5 people you're basically better off just doing extended and whacking in a bunch of random events

L1134[21:52:03] * CompanionCube has a VPS..that prohibits public game servers

L1135[21:52:17] <GreaseMonkey> reminds me, at a lan party (i think we had about 9 people) i'd modified the code to allow the nuclear mode to work with less than 10 people or however many you actually need

L1136[21:52:29] <GreazyMcgeezy> GreaseMonkey, The first command =component.modem.address() returns a traceback.

L1137[21:52:47] <GreaseMonkey> GreazyMcgeezy: restart the in-game computer, then try =component.modem.address()

L1138[21:52:47] <GreazyMcgeezy> Leaving off the ()

L1139[21:52:54] <GreazyMcgeezy> Works

L1140[21:52:55] <GreazyMcgeezy> Okay

L1141[21:53:02] <CompanionCube> the tg branch is one of the few pieces of software that hits the exact right target for using the AGPL :p

L1142[21:53:02] <GreaseMonkey> because it appears that you've broken the state

L1143[21:53:02] <potato> S3: anyway it's similar to dwarf fortress in being tile based, but it's multiplayer and set on a space station and there's blood and death everywhere- wait, DF has that too. it has a stupid amount of roles and things because it's just sort of been made over time

L1144[21:53:19] <GreazyMcgeezy> That was on the robot

L1145[21:53:24] <GreazyMcgeezy> With a fresh reboot

L1146[21:53:29] <CompanionCube> also, it has surprisingly detailed atmospheric simulation :p

L1147[21:53:39] <GreaseMonkey> ok that's weird, i would have thought it would be a function

L1148[21:53:39] <potato> that it do

L1149[21:53:45] <GreaseMonkey> actually, try power-cycling it\

L1150[21:53:58] <GreaseMonkey> turn it off then on again, and make sure no bootup programs are there to screw it up

L1151[21:54:02] <GreazyMcgeezy> Yeah, that's what I did to the robot

L1152[21:54:07] <GreaseMonkey> S3: it also has somewhat realistic atmospheric simulation

L1153[21:54:07] <GreazyMcgeezy> And just did to server

L1154[21:54:26] <CompanionCube> GreazyMcgeezy: I just wish there was a native linux client

L1155[21:54:36] <CompanionCube> *GreaseMonkey

L1156[21:54:39] <GreazyMcgeezy> using the =component.modem.address() produces traceback, but =component.modem.address returns the value

L1157[21:54:50] <GreaseMonkey> what is the value you get then?

L1158[21:55:03] <GreazyMcgeezy> Is there any way to copy/paste of of this terminal?

L1159[21:55:22] <GreazyMcgeezy> it's a "10cb47ef-d5bb-4362........"

L1160[21:55:26] <GreazyMcgeezy> Hex number

L1161[21:55:27] <GreazyMcgeezy> Long

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L1163[21:55:47] <CompanionCube> GreazyMcgeezy: that's looks to be a correct, valid address

L1164[21:55:49] <GreaseMonkey> ok, so chances are that's the actual address and "setting" the address is just asking for trouble

L1165[21:56:11] <GreazyMcgeezy> Is there any way to copy/paste then? I'd hate to hvae to pull the address of multiple drones being controlled by the server.

L1166[21:56:13] <GreaseMonkey> because instead of setting the address you'll just be overwriting your program's understanding of what the address is with something which is just plain wrong

L1167[21:56:14] <GreazyMcgeezy> Or robots

L1168[21:56:30] <GreaseMonkey> you could try broadcasting them to a port which is read by a server

L1169[21:56:33] <GreazyMcgeezy> I understnd. The documentation just said that the modem.address was a "string"

L1170[21:56:39] <GreaseMonkey> actually i think that's the best way to go about it

L1171[21:56:40] <GreazyMcgeezy> Yeah, broadcast works fine

L1172[21:57:01] <CompanionCube> alternatively, people have implemented basic name resolution systems to reduce the need for this

L1173[21:57:05] <GreazyMcgeezy> I just am trying to work on being able to use unicast

L1174[21:57:07] <GreazyMcgeezy> or multicast

L1175[21:57:28] <GreaseMonkey> i can think of an easy way to do nondistributed name resolution

L1176[21:57:38] <CompanionCube> GreaseMonkey: /etc/hosts?

L1177[21:57:38] <CompanionCube> :P

L1178[21:58:04] <GreaseMonkey> have a Lua table which maps domain names to addresses

L1179[21:58:14] <S3> yeah. I didn't like how df kind of did its crafting system

L1180[21:58:20] <S3> so I figured, time for heavy use of roles

L1181[21:58:23] <GreaseMonkey> ("lookup", "domain_name") and ("lookup_response", "domain_name", "actual_address")

L1182[21:58:28] <GreaseMonkey> erm

L1183[21:58:28] <GreazyMcgeezy> And I guess use scripts to report the address from the robot to the server to build the table?

L1184[21:58:29] <GreaseMonkey> yeah

L1185[21:58:36] <GreazyMcgeezy> via broadcast

L1186[21:59:01] <GreazyMcgeezy> I just don't want to type these insanely long addresses

L1187[21:59:11] <GreazyMcgeezy> I mean, this is even worse than IPv6

L1188[21:59:18] <GreazyMcgeezy> Or a standard 48bit mac

L1189[21:59:31] <GreaseMonkey> your robot sends a broadcast to the server on a port which you've set aside for discovering robots

L1190[21:59:46] <GreaseMonkey> the server can then add that to a list of valid addresses

L1191[22:00:01] <CompanionCube> GreaseMonkey: DynDNS for OpenComputers!

L1192[22:00:13] <GreaseMonkey> there's an example in ocdoc:

L1193[22:00:13] <GreaseMonkey> local _, _, from, port, _, message = event.pull("modem_message")

L1194[22:00:18] <GreazyMcgeezy> Right, so I'd open a port on the server, then on the robot component.modem.broadcast(<port opened on server>, component.modem.address)

L1195[22:00:31] <GreazyMcgeezy> Oh, so there's functions built in for robot discovery?

L1196[22:00:46] <GreaseMonkey> to reply you could do: component.modem.send(from, port, insertmessagebitshere, alsomorebitsifyouwantthem)

L1197[22:01:03] <GreaseMonkey> the thing with opencomputers is there's usually not a heck of a lot "built in"

L1198[22:01:24] <GreazyMcgeezy> Right. I understand that. I just figured according ot the doc that it was just a "string"

L1199[22:01:33] <GreazyMcgeezy> It didn't say NOT to redefine that string

L1200[22:01:36] <GreazyMcgeezy> Lol

L1201[22:02:10] <CompanionCube> It's a wiki. You can edit it :)

L1202[22:02:25] <GreazyMcgeezy> And yeah, I have ideas to build robot discovery using broadcast on the server. Good idea.

L1203[22:02:29] <GreazyMcgeezy> I guess I'll try to type it once

L1204[22:02:40] <S3> man I also gotta do ai

L1205[22:02:48] <S3> I have to figure out 3D path finding algoritms

L1206[22:02:50] <GreazyMcgeezy> For the component.modem.send("address", 99, "test")

L1207[22:02:59] <GreazyMcgeezy> That way I can see if Send is workign with the REAL address

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L1209[22:04:13] <GreaseMonkey> S3: the usual one is D*

L1210[22:04:19] <GreaseMonkey> i've yet to implement that, however

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L1212[22:06:41] <GreazyMcgeezy> yeah, the send command doesn't work even with 2 freshly booted devices and the server using component.modem.send("<real_address>", 99, "test")

L1213[22:06:53] <GreazyMcgeezy> However when using same command, but switching to broadcast and removing the address it works

L1214[22:10:41] <GreazyMcgeezy> Im' running the latest beta server version and beta client. Do you think that has anything to do with it?

L1215[22:10:57] <S3> GreaseMonkey: D*?

L1216[22:10:58] <GreazyMcgeezy> Could it be a bug in this version?

L1217[22:11:06] <GreaseMonkey> it's basically a dynamic take on A*

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L1219[22:16:47] <S3> I forgot what we are talking about lol

L1220[22:17:04] <S3> I was sidetracked

L1221[22:17:10] <S3> a*, d*?!

L1222[22:18:40] <GreazyMcgeezy> I guess I'm going to file a bug report on this. Per your recommendation, using the initial settings still not working and I'm FAIRLY certain that I've got it coded right.

L1223[22:19:55] <GreaseMonkey> S3: A* is a well-known pathfinding algorithm based on dijkstra's pathfinding algorithm but it adds a heuristic, D* is a dynamic take on it

L1224[22:20:11] <S3> oh

L1225[22:20:15] <S3> pathfinding

L1226[22:20:18] <GreaseMonkey> hmm, i could possibly buy a couple of 4040s from a store that actually sells them

L1227[22:21:03] <S3> ooh youtube videos

L1228[22:21:09] <GreaseMonkey> although it'd probably be better to just get everything from digikey

L1229[22:21:14] <GreaseMonkey> and just make the damn z80 computer

L1230[22:22:08] <GreaseMonkey> use an arduino connected to a computer to replace the RAM, and then kick-start the z80

L1231[22:35:02] <GreazyMcgeezy> GreaseMonkey, thanks for the assistance. Aside from trying to set the modem.address you confirmed that I was approaching the command correctly. Bug report https://github.com/MightyPirates/OpenComputers/issues/2105

L1232[22:44:25] <Katie> GreazyMcgeezy, 0/10 can't reproduce

L1233[22:44:33] <Nachtara> breebree

L1234[22:44:35] <Katie> http://michi.pc-logix.com/java_2016-10-23_22-44-33.png

L1235[22:50:19] <GreazyMcgeezy> Are you on the 1.10.2 beta?

L1236[22:50:24] <Katie> Yep

L1237[22:50:58] <GreazyMcgeezy> Odd... Could you come to my server to see where I'm going wrong?

L1238[22:51:09] <GreazyMcgeezy> Well, using the hermitpack

L1239[22:51:16] <GreazyMcgeezy> So maybe there's other things happening

L1240[22:53:41] <Katie> umm.. it depends

L1241[22:53:48] <Katie> Give me a link I guess

L1242[22:56:09] <S3> GreaseMonkey: apparently the best method I've found so far is dijkstra's concurrent algorithm

L1243[22:56:24] <S3> I dunno how that is related to D*

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L1249[23:35:12] <GreaseMonkey> oh fuck yes i am now listening to vgms played on real hardware

L1250[23:35:35] <GreaseMonkey> best to leave the +5 line to float

L1251[23:36:01] <GreaseMonkey> otherwise it likes to short circuit and fuck out

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L1253[23:36:34] <GreaseMonkey> ideally i'd like to get code running on the real thing but this'll do for now

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