OCLogs: 2018-10-30.log

Stuff goes here

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L27[03:50:20] <Ezko> hmm, i guess hiding quit/join spam on this channel wouldn't be such a bad idea

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L36[04:27:48] <taniwha> Ezko: doesn't hid op status, though :/

L37[04:30:21] * UmbralRaptop needs to look into bouncers. Though given my home internet situation…

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L40[04:43:07] <Ezko> if i didn't have server access i'd run irssi on a raspberry pi or something

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L47[05:59:50] <Glass|phone> TheKosmonaut: btw what should I do if I want to use a grounded device like seven meters from the only gnd screw terminal in my apartment

L48[06:00:55] <Glass|phone> why do we still use plugs and outlets designed in a time where nobody gave a damn about electrocuting you and burning your house down

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L51[06:16:30] <Gasher[work]> well tbh it's kinda usual to have outlets without grounding wire attached

L52[06:16:50] <Eddi|zuHause> in what world do people still have outlets without ground?

L53[06:17:13] <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i have even seen those in my entire life

L54[06:56:06] <Azander> A lot of old houses (pre 1970) do

L55[06:58:00] <VanDisaster> that's an interesting definition of old house

L56[06:58:13] <VanDisaster> my house was built in 1760something, what does that make it :p

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L59[07:05:55] <Gasher[work]> VanDisaster, an old hovel? :D

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L61[07:12:20] <Rolf> bit older than usa

L62[07:13:15] <Azander> I work in a building that they had to add electricity to after it was built (by decades) and even that still has many non-grounded outlets (which are getting replaced slowly as we use them for things beyond simple lighting)

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L64[07:21:35] <Ezko> VanDisaster: where do you live

L65[07:21:48] <VanDisaster> southwest UK

L66[07:21:53] <Ezko> ah

L67[07:22:05] <Ezko> oldest building in the city i live in is from 1755 or so

L68[07:22:58] <VanDisaster> some of the farmhouses around here are a few lifetimes older than this building

L69[07:24:06] <sandbox> the oldest building in my city is ~1130

L70[07:28:36] <VanDisaster> the local city has a few roman walls left, the buildings aren't *quite* that old :p

L71[07:37:46] <Ezko> https://pr0gramm.com/new/2802467 nice anti-lag sound

L72[07:38:59] <falalilal> people in north america didn't do a lot building before the whites invaded did they?

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L75[07:40:05] <Ezko> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_St._Lawrence,_Vantaa guess this is the oldest building within like 20km from where i live

L76[07:45:54] <VanDisaster> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter the nearest city

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L83[08:28:44] <Glass|phone> I don't actually know when my place was built but I'd assume 5-10 years ago

L84[08:29:22] <Glass|phone> the building neither seems to be aging nor built to last very long

L85[08:30:10] <Althego> hehe

L86[08:31:40] <Glass|phone> like heck, the windows stick outwards to give an illusion of wall thickness from the inside

L87[08:33:13] <Glass|phone> they're also single pane non insulated

L88[08:33:30] <falalilal> that's terrible, you might as well choke some birds to death by hand

L89[08:34:39] <Glass|phone> it is however unreasonably large

L90[08:35:32] <Glass|phone> both the window and the entire apartment

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L92[08:59:41] <Ezko> here newer buildings have thicker walls

L93[09:00:31] <Ezko> like my previous apartment had windows with like 15 cm windosill on the inside, triple glass window and another probably 7-8 cm windowsill on the outside

L94[09:01:14] <Ezko> that was built in 2013, my current apartment is from 2005 i think and no massive windowsill on the inside

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L111[10:20:15] <VanDisaster> I live in a grade 2 listed building, can't do *anything* to the windows here

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L113[10:28:22] <Rokker> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/gpqA127d/20181030_111533.jpg

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L124[11:30:02] <Rokker> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/HVqSctqb/20181030_111533.jpg

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L133[12:23:38] <Fluburtur> apparently there is a trumpet teacher in my town so I could try to see if I can try it

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L135[12:27:47] <Althego> trumpette, is it like bowsette? :)

L136[12:28:01] <Fluburtur> idk, I don't care for nintendo stuff really

L137[12:28:15] <Althego> just a throwaway pun

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L139[12:29:13] <Althego> i hate that the materials bay is so big

L140[12:29:52] <Althego> and even if you try to hide it from the direct stream, it can blow up because apparently the things in front of it dont deflect air enough

L141[12:30:14] <Fluburtur> oh wow anti vax are incredibly dumb https://66.media.tumblr.com/2174ca3accff857c58e489ca5c984ecb/tumblr_pe86kcnjmX1qm0cig_640.jpg

L142[12:30:43] <Althego> this cant be true

L143[12:32:22] <darsie> Blood is diamagnetic.

L144[12:44:51] <Althego> not that. nobody can be this stupid

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L146[12:47:34] <sandbox> yes, they can

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L148[12:49:47] <darsie> I still rather think it's fake.

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L150[12:50:41] <sandbox> I hope so

L151[13:21:00] <Althego> scott

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L167[14:27:19] <Mat2ch> Fluburtur: ... out!

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L169[14:27:37] <falalilal> it's fake, someone on the internet told me that once

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L172[14:34:19] <Althego> fake news, fake cgi?

L173[14:36:57] <JVFoxy> fake life?

L174[14:37:14] <Althego> reality is unrealistic trope

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L176[14:40:14] <UmbralRaptop> ? https://twitter.com/nadiamdrake/status/1057347211586035712

L177[14:40:14] <kmath> <nadiamdrake> "NASA’s original planet hunter, the Kepler space telescope, has run out of fuel. This is not unexpected, and this m… https://t.co/8kMT95WfWo

L178[14:40:53] <Althego> it's dead, jim

L179[14:42:39] <BPlayer> Awww

L180[14:43:10] <BPlayer> Let's all take a moment to appreciate all the things this mission gave us. All the more reasons for JWT

L181[14:43:41] <falalilal> what did it give us tho?

L182[14:43:57] <BPlayer> Let me get you that gallery of pictures

L183[14:44:05] <UmbralRaptop> >3000 exoplanets

L184[14:44:11] <falalilal> they weren't there before?!

L185[14:44:14] <UmbralRaptop> BPlayer: uh.

L186[14:44:25] <Eddi|zuHause> no, they spawned when we observed them, obviously

L187[14:44:42] <Eddi|zuHause> that also explains why the earth is only 12000 years old

L188[14:44:47] <BPlayer> We did not know where they were until we observed them, and now we don't know how fast they move

L189[14:44:55] <falalilal> i wonder if we'll ever find a way to get to those planets

L190[14:45:11] <UmbralRaptop> falalilal: we knew about a few hundred before. We have a much better understanding of planets especially within 1 au of their stars now.

L191[14:45:19] <falalilal> how long ago are we seeing them tho?

L192[14:45:27] <UmbralRaptop> Also astroseismology

L193[14:45:41] <Eddi|zuHause> a few hundred years tops

L194[14:46:06] <UmbralRaptop> Kepler planets are generally a few hundred ly away, but a few might be >1000

L195[14:46:39] <Eddi|zuHause> in astronomic timeframes, that's basically yesterday

L196[14:47:12] <Eddi|zuHause> if it was just a few seconds after midnight

L197[14:47:29] <falalilal> i'm literally sitting here right now and somehow getting annoyed at the fact that we haven't found other intelligent life yet

L198[14:47:54] <Eddi|zuHause> don't read up on fermi's paradox then

L199[14:47:57] <falalilal> c'mon scientists, get on with it!

L200[14:48:40] <BPlayer> Humm, I can't find that gallery

L201[14:49:01] <BPlayer> There were those APOD images with the best discoveries of, I believe, Kepler

L202[14:49:20] <BPlayer> Or was that a different observatory they nominated this way?

L203[14:49:23] <UmbralRaptop> Intermittent reminder that Earth's strongest radio signals were Soviet ballistic missile early warning radars.

L204[14:50:00] <Eddi|zuHause> everything is bigger in russia

L205[14:50:17] <BPlayer> Russia is bigger, so everything in Russia is bigger too :P

L206[14:50:17] <Eddi|zuHause> so why not radio as well

L207[14:50:33] <falalilal> its a tragedy that the Americans tricked Osama into fighting communism for them

L208[14:50:37] <BPlayer> There is a certain beauty to it, though.

L209[14:50:38] <falalilal> communism should have won

L210[14:50:49] <UmbralRaptop> politics

L211[14:50:51] <BPlayer> falalilal, please avoid political discussion, though

L212[14:51:03] <UmbralRaptop> … Why does Bennu look like a less cratered Ryugu? https://twitter.com/DSLauretta/status/1057349491567652864

L213[14:51:03] <kmath> <DSLauretta> Bennu first look! - Bennu is in our sights and the asteroid surface features are starting to come into focus! The t… https://t.co/TMFX51Y1BJ

L214[14:51:29] <BPlayer> UmbralRaptop: Perhaps they are siblings and Bennu is younger? :P

L215[14:51:35] <Althego> hehe looks like tha same diamond shape

L216[14:51:49] <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow always read "Ryukyu" first...

L217[14:52:19] * UmbralRaptop pastes a diacritic onto Eddi|zuHause

L218[14:52:49] <BPlayer> Somehow, Bennu reminds me of Minmus

L219[14:52:55] <Eddi|zuHause> ¯¯

L220[14:53:00] <BPlayer> Perhaps it's lime green?

L221[14:54:19] <falalilal> https://i.redd.it/3pa9y9g2uvu11.gif

L222[14:54:38] <falalilal> crazy to think that's a comet

L223[14:54:45] <falalilal> it looks like a 50s movie

L224[14:54:53] <BPlayer> Good thing you are not stuck on it. :P

L225[14:55:25] <Eddi|zuHause> don't you mean 20s movie?

L226[14:55:57] <BPlayer> Nah, not a 20s movie. Charlie Chaplin is missing

L227[14:56:45] <Eddi|zuHause> but they had sound in 50s movies

L228[14:57:09] <Eddi|zuHause> also, they figured out proper fps

L229[14:57:33] <Althego> btw 1.6 is coming

L230[14:57:41] <Eddi|zuHause> winter is coming?

L231[14:57:46] <falalilal> i'm still on 1.4

L232[14:57:48] <Althego> could be more correct to call it 1.4.7 or something

L233[14:58:22] <Eddi|zuHause> they could be going the java route and call it 6.0

L234[14:58:28] <Althego> hehe

L235[14:58:40] <Althego> or the chrome way and call it 60 :)

L236[14:58:43] <BPlayer> KSP 6.1, AKA KSP Vista

L237[14:59:07] <Althego> 1.5 is so minor it doesnt even have a trailer

L238[14:59:07] <BPlayer> Whoops, no, 6.0 would be Vista

L239[14:59:18] <BPlayer> 6.1 would be KSP 7 :P

L240[14:59:59] <Eddi|zuHause> BPlayer: that's still not as bad as windows 10 having two different counting systems, and both are used to communicate to the user

L241[15:00:09] <Althego> hehe

L242[15:00:45] <BPlayer> That's what happens when a program grows organically

L243[15:01:44] <falalilal> i haven't used Windows in years

L244[15:01:54] <falalilal> but I guess I shouldn't mention the communist Linux LOL

L245[15:02:28] <UmbralRaptop> Discussing OSes is fine as long as it doesn't turn religious.

L246[15:02:47] <falalilal> Vi is best tho

L247[15:03:03] <Althego> lol

L248[15:03:08] <BPlayer> https://xkcd.com/378/

L249[15:03:13] ⇨ Joins: Eddi|zuHause2 (Eddi|zuHause2!~johekr@p5B12EC2F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)

L250[15:03:18] <Althego> obviously

L251[15:03:25] ⇦ Quits: Eddi|zuHause (Eddi|zuHause!~johekr@pD9EADE54.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)

L252[15:03:30] *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause

L253[15:03:38] <UmbralRaptop> I mean: vi plays nice with files hundreds of MB in size, and runs on everything…

L254[15:03:38] <Eddi|zuHause> my internet is somewhat unstable lately

L255[15:04:15] <Eddi|zuHause> i've had lots of "stupid" editors that always try to load the full file into memory first

L256[15:04:18] * UmbralRaptop remembers having so much trouble with Python packages on an iMac that installing Debian on an ancient laptop was an easier way of doing limited number crunching and generating plots.

L257[15:04:37] <Althego> hundreds of megabytes alreadt fit in the memory :)

L258[15:04:42] <KrazyKrl> Trouble with an iMac... INCONCIVEABLE

L259[15:05:17] <Althego> as long as you keep it in an atmosphere without water, preferable in a vacuum

L260[15:05:22] <Althego> oh wait, no cooling then

L261[15:05:29] <UmbralRaptop> It's what I was issued for work porpoises

L262[15:05:37] <UmbralRaptop> (the iMac)

L263[15:05:48] <UmbralRaptop> Also, </3 tcsh

L264[15:05:52] <Althego> lol

L265[15:06:15] <BPlayer> Warranty void if you touch the keyboard or look at the screen

L266[15:06:22] <Althego> hehe

L267[15:06:42] <Althego> pp bus g3 hot

L268[15:06:59] <BPlayer> Main B bus overheat :P

L269[15:06:59] <UmbralRaptop> Bonus: "fun" that involved using IRAF and DS9.

L270[15:07:16] <Althego> undervolt

L271[15:07:20] <UmbralRaptop> Undervolt in main bus B

L272[15:07:26] <Althego> if you mean apollo 13

L273[15:07:54] <Althego> pp bus g3 hot is the typical power line in a mac that fails

L274[15:07:56] <BPlayer> I mean Apollo 13 fitted to your pp bus g3 hot comment

L275[15:07:56] <Eddi|zuHause> <Althego> oh wait, no cooling then <-- you can have cooling in vacuum (by radiation)

L276[15:07:59] <Althego> because of reasons

L277[15:08:14] <Althego> yes you can have, but normal computers are not designed for that

L278[15:08:22] <Althego> neither for zero g

L279[15:08:32] <Althego> so they would overheat in space

L280[15:08:37] <BPlayer> Sure, the hard drive disk starts floating in zero g :P

L281[15:08:53] <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's much of an issue with zero g

L282[15:09:04] <BPlayer> The LCD spills

L283[15:09:05] <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, they have random consumer laptops on the ISS

L284[15:09:24] * BPlayer stops talking trash :P

L285[15:09:31] <darsie> Computers have fans. They don't rely on gravity assisted convection.

L286[15:09:34] <Eddi|zuHause> anything you can use upside down you can also use in zero g

L287[15:09:43] <darsie> Well, there are some passive coolers, too.

L288[15:09:50] <KrazyKrl> hey now... i love that speak about making my PPBus G3hot.

L289[15:09:59] <BPlayer> Eddi: Not quite. Convection might be an issue, but mostly they have fans

L290[15:10:00] <darsie> heat sinks*

L291[15:10:12] <BPlayer> Heat rises, though

L292[15:10:12] <Althego> there is an issue with zero g, there is no thermal convection, because there is no up

L293[15:10:14] <BPlayer> :P

L294[15:10:15] <Althego> same for flames too

L295[15:10:43] <Eddi|zuHause> just means you need some other way to induce some draft

L296[15:10:52] <Eddi|zuHause> like a fan

L297[15:10:55] <Eddi|zuHause> somewhere

L298[15:10:57] <Eddi|zuHause> anywhere

L299[15:11:08] <BPlayer> Let's build a computrifuge!

L300[15:11:33] <JVFoxy> Well.. could use LEDs in 0g... they don't produce heat

L301[15:11:34] <KrazyKrl> computerfrugal forces?

L302[15:11:44] <KrazyKrl> everything creates heat.

L303[15:11:55] <KrazyKrl> entropy must always increase to the maximum.

L304[15:12:10] <BPlayer> Entropy may increase in processes that consume heat

L305[15:12:39] <BPlayer> It's rather rare, but it happens

L306[15:12:50] <darsie> did you mean decrease?

L307[15:13:04] <JVFoxy> tell that to the people who install LEDs in stoplights and when snow covers them up

L308[15:13:34] <KrazyKrl> LEDs in stoplights are heatsinked way more than the heat they produce.

L309[15:13:44] <darsie> JVFoxy: There are heatable stoplights for that.

L310[15:14:12] <JVFoxy> may as well just go back to regular bulbs

L311[15:14:28] <JVFoxy> they figured, installing LED would save on power... ya till winter rolls over

L312[15:14:31] <KrazyKrl> running a heater for a portion of the year is still cheaper.

L313[15:15:01] <JVFoxy> do what they do with Voyager, install radio isotopes.. radiation gives off heat. no power needed

L314[15:15:08] <KrazyKrl> incandescendents are only 5% efficent for light output.

L315[15:15:20] <Althego> yes, laughable

L316[15:15:22] <Eddi|zuHause> <JVFoxy> tell that to the people who install LEDs in stoplights and when snow covers them up <-- just because they produce 1/10 of the heat doesn't mean they produce "no" heat

L317[15:15:30] <BPlayer> Can also use radioisotopes to make the lights light up :P

L318[15:15:36] <KrazyKrl> they produce no USABLE heat.

L319[15:15:48] <KrazyKrl> just install radon in everything, ez.

L320[15:15:51] <JVFoxy> I just saying, everyone seems to think LED's are heatless... you should see the heatsinks on some massively big LEDs

L321[15:15:58] <Althego> hehe

L322[15:16:05] <Althego> on really bright power leds

L323[15:16:17] <Althego> the most of the thing is the heatsink

L324[15:16:20] <Rolf> leds is weird on heat, it emits light one side and other side gets heat

L325[15:16:27] <Eddi|zuHause> <JVFoxy> they figured, installing LED would save on power... ya till winter rolls over <-- it's only "winter" for a few days each years, difference is you can turn off the heating on the other days

L326[15:16:27] <JVFoxy> was at a homeshow... some of the LED lighting systems they use for pools, a good portion of a KG is just a metal block with fins

L327[15:17:25] <JVFoxy> find it funny, some places that have soda vending machines where it gets really cold in winter, they use regular bulbs to keep the soda from freezing up

L328[15:17:42] <Althego> hehe

L329[15:18:35] <JVFoxy> in any case...

L330[15:19:24] <BPlayer> Last time I stayed for a night in a hut in Sweden, there was no heating. We put a pack of milk in the fridge overnight, had to get up at 4 in the morning, and we had 6°C inside of the hut. The milk froze, we had to drop solid chunks of it into the cup

L331[15:19:28] <darsie> Also LEDs last much longer than incandescents. That saves a lot of money/work.

L332[15:19:31] <JVFoxy> ya I don't get much of a winter where I live.. just lots of rain these days. Power by hydro dams...

L333[15:20:18] <JVFoxy> just careful what LEDs you guy.. sometimes the soldering connections aren't always teh best

L334[15:20:23] <Althego> i have easier solution, i dont drink milk :)

L335[15:20:25] <KrazyKrl> incandescents last a few thousand hours, even high intensity LEDs can last more than 10x that, even approaching 100,000 hours.

L336[15:20:27] <JVFoxy> ... what LEDs you buy

L337[15:21:18] <JVFoxy> fire station has a bulb still going after decades, but thats only because its a low power, low pressure

L338[15:21:56] <darsie> I bought tiny smd LEDs, 5 mm white/violet, high power white/365 nm UV, ...

L339[15:22:05] <JVFoxy> think we expect a lot out of things we make these days... most of it doesn't last as a result

L340[15:22:19] <KrazyKrl> Are those like those old pyramid-scheme bulbs? iirc Amway or something... they were repackaging 220v bulbs as long-life 120v bulbs.

L341[15:22:25] <Rolf> they also suspect that bulb lasted so long due to lucky factor plus that that light basically never gets turned off

L342[15:22:57] <JVFoxy> rolf thermal shock is a thing in bulbs..

L343[15:23:21] <Rolf> yep

L344[15:23:23] <JVFoxy> room temp to several hundred degrees in a split second

L345[15:24:06] <KrazyKrl> several thousand degrees you mean.

L346[15:24:12] <KrazyKrl> that tungsten gets kinda hot

L347[15:24:17] <KrazyKrl> white hot, as it happens

L348[15:24:29] <KrazyKrl> you're literally getting blackbody radiation.

L349[15:24:36] <darsie> 2300 K?

L350[15:24:40] <KrazyKrl> k.

L351[15:24:50] <JVFoxy> there are old old gas engines that still survive, even run.. can even put them on cooking oil.. but nope... don't want them, they pollute too much. They'd rather just buy out lithium mines, metal shops, spend billions on making electric cars, have to replace batteries every 5 years

L352[15:24:57] <darsie> halogen maybe 3000 K

L353[15:25:26] <JVFoxy> don't remember how hot they get... they were going to make 100w bulbs illegal here

L354[15:25:39] <JVFoxy> then start pushing down to 60w.. 40w...

L355[15:26:04] <darsie> LED are cheaper anyways, in the long term.

L356[15:26:22] <JVFoxy> they started finding flouro bulbs were causing too much UV

L357[15:26:30] <Rolf> here we can buy 40w ones, I think they dont plan to make that one illegal, as there is couple uses that cannot use led period

L358[15:26:32] <Althego> eu did stop production of 100w and even lower incandescents

L359[15:26:33] <KrazyKrl> or the fact that they contain mercury

L360[15:26:42] <Althego> actually a good thing, we dont need the heat from them most of the time

L361[15:26:43] <KrazyKrl> mercury is kinda bad[citation needed]

L362[15:26:53] <Eddi|zuHause> <KrazyKrl> incandescents last a few thousand hours, even high intensity LEDs can last more than 10x that, even approaching 100,000 hours. <-- i had to go out and buy 4x2€ halogen bulbs every half year or so, until i swapped them with LEDs some 5 years back

L363[15:27:01] <Eddi|zuHause> haven't had a problem since then

L364[15:27:10] <UmbralRaptop> Citation: Karen Wetterhan

L365[15:27:24] <darsie> hahn

L366[15:27:30] <darsie> cock

L367[15:27:46] <KrazyKrl> the only place i use halogen bulbs, the stove hood for light intensity while cooking, and one of those halogen replacement bulbs that gives me more light output without pulling too much amperage.

L368[15:27:56] <KrazyKrl> everything else is LED.

L369[15:28:00] <Eddi|zuHause> how did Hahn/cock get so many different meanings?

L370[15:28:13] <Rolf> exactly. oven lights just cant be led

L371[15:28:14] <Althego> as any other word

L372[15:28:25] <Rolf> led need to radate away heat, and oven pumps heat in

L373[15:28:26] <KrazyKrl> (LED and fleuroescents' circuitry isn't good in damp locations)

L374[15:28:28] <Althego> there are lights in ovens?

L375[15:28:35] <JVFoxy> sigh.. was ads going around over here, trying to get people to not use AC units.. open your windows, use fans. Don't drive.. ect. Times I wonder this whole energy saving craze gets a little out of hand

L376[15:28:37] <Rolf> yes.

L377[15:28:44] <darsie> LEDs make much sense in bicycle lighting.

L378[15:29:12] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: it's both getting out of hands and isn't nearly enough at the same time

L379[15:29:14] <Althego> bicycle repair man!

L380[15:29:18] <JVFoxy> would love to get one of them bike generators from the old days. Make wind generator

L381[15:29:35] <Althego> how would that be any better?

L382[15:29:39] <Rolf> JVFoxy: AC have two problems, it uses lot of power, AND it can leak gas that damages ozone layer

L383[15:29:42] <Althego> it generates drag as you go

L384[15:29:50] <darsie> JVFoxy: Fans wouldn't turn fast enough.

L385[15:29:54] <Althego> so you have to put in energy to drive it

L386[15:29:56] <JVFoxy> Althego not for a bike

L387[15:30:26] <Althego> acs are not using ozone layer damaging working fluid anymore

L388[15:30:28] <Althego> for daced

L389[15:30:32] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: you mean those generators that generate 2W of power?

L390[15:30:46] <Althego> but the replacement is a greenhouse gas :)

L391[15:30:47] * UmbralRaptop isn't sure how open windows help on those 32+ C days, but okay

L392[15:30:48] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: what kind of thing do you want to drive with that?

L393[15:30:57] <Althego> actually the ozone layr almost completely fixed itself

L394[15:30:58] <Rolf> 2w is plenty for small led lights

L395[15:31:03] <KrazyKrl> R134a (iirc) has been out for decades

L396[15:31:04] <darsie> 3W

L397[15:31:11] <Rolf> Althego: yeah and we'd like to keep it fixed

L398[15:31:13] <JVFoxy> I use fans... despite room mate giving me grief for not getting an AC

L399[15:31:21] <KrazyKrl> i had a 1998 chevy lumina that uses R134 and not freon.

L400[15:31:21] <Eddi|zuHause> Rolf: yeah, bikes are much brighter nowadays than they were 20 years ago

L401[15:31:50] <JVFoxy> Eddi|zuHause just to mess around with. My camper could run on 2 watts for lighting if I replaced the 4 bulbs with LED

L402[15:32:00] <Rolf> Eddi|zuHause: I wish thats true here also. I almost tagged darktards 2 times in road. black clothes, dark bicycle.

L403[15:32:02] <falalilal> my new bike is just as stupid as my old one

L404[15:32:09] ⇨ Joins: CaptainN (CaptainN!zelda@050-090-160-125.res.spectrum.com)

L405[15:32:09] <Althego> hehe

L406[15:32:15] <Althego> darktards

L407[15:32:20] <Rolf> zero lights

L408[15:32:27] <Eddi|zuHause> <Althego> actually the ozone layr almost completely fixed itself <-- uhm, there are signs of the ozone layer regenerating, but i wouldn't call that "completely fixed"

L409[15:32:44] <KrazyKrl> Around here, if you want AC for the summer... with the costs of heating in the winter... your energy bill for natural gas + electric would be $300+ per month... if you don't have AC here, it drops to like $40/mo in the summer.

L410[15:32:49] <Rolf> Althego: thats what they call people that has no lighting in burning man. I never went, but loved that word.

L411[15:33:05] <Eddi|zuHause> also, they found a new (probably chinese) source of ozone-layer-eating chemicals

L412[15:33:08] <Rolf> its super super dark there so its good idea to have lighting

L413[15:33:33] <Althego> one time i was in stolberg and was walking to the office from the hotel in the morning. it was winter so it was fairly dark, and i realized i had completely black clothing on by accident

L414[15:33:41] <KrazyKrl> you can power a few watts of LEDS for a LOOOONG time off of even a motorcycle battery.

L415[15:33:45] <JVFoxy> power company over here been trying to push for stupidly high rates for years... already getting carbon taxed through the roof on fuels. Government says they want ot use it for things, but no one knows where that money is actually going

L416[15:34:06] <Althego> hehe, typical government

L417[15:34:21] <JVFoxy> already paying highest prices on gas of north america

L418[15:34:31] <JVFoxy> well.. other than Churchill

L419[15:34:33] <Rolf> If usage is blank, its rich cronies bank accounts.

L420[15:34:33] <KrazyKrl> naa... more like typical private utility companies.

L421[15:34:57] <JVFoxy> Churchill only because rail line got washed out, having to fly everything in till rails fixed. Been out more than 16 months

L422[15:35:09] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: a few years ago there was huge outrage in america about fuel costing "4$ per gallon"... i ran those numbers through a calculator, and fuel around here was twice that

L423[15:35:35] <Rolf> average transit time in usa is twice yours also

L424[15:35:38] <Rolf> or more

L425[15:35:38] <JVFoxy> I've seen $1.64/L here...

L426[15:35:39] <KrazyKrl> i'm still pissed that they removed commuter rail service around here like 40 years before i was born.

L427[15:35:51] <JVFoxy> I know europe has it far far worse... something liek 2.50/L?

L428[15:35:55] <UmbralRaptop> Eddi|zuHause: You live in a country with a transit system, though

L429[15:36:10] <Althego> yes usa has really low fuel prices

L430[15:36:17] <JVFoxy> transit system here too.. but too much in-fighting

L431[15:36:25] <Althego> here mre than half of it is taxes and stuff

L432[15:36:31] <Rolf> im lucky, drive time, when no traffic, is 12 minutes. most of coworkers transit time daily is hour long. there was one that was 4 hours long (he brings camper and lives at site for working weekend)

L433[15:36:31] <KrazyKrl> most of the larger cities in the united states actually had good transit systems before the auto companies kinda shoved them out.

L434[15:36:41] <Rolf> yep

L435[15:36:52] <KrazyKrl> detroit had trams.

L436[15:36:55] <JVFoxy> Rolf cool.. I'd be doing that too if I wasn't being bounced around different sites

L437[15:37:09] <JVFoxy> Skytrain here

L438[15:37:09] <Eddi|zuHause> well, fuel prices were actually pretty low the beginning of this year. until trump rallied up against iran again

L439[15:37:11] <KrazyKrl> and around here we had commuter rail to the nearest 4 cities.

L440[15:37:23] <Rolf> JVFoxy: ehh not really great, he had no power in his camper

L441[15:37:45] <Althego> all this may be interesting, but i really need to sleep. why is it that you people start to talk when i want to go to bed

L442[15:37:46] <Rolf> he evenually got another closer job

L443[15:37:51] <Rolf> lol

L444[15:38:01] <JVFoxy> they want to expand through my city's area (finally we get some attention this side of the river) but can't decide if regular skytrain or LRT..

L445[15:38:08] <Eddi|zuHause> <KrazyKrl> most of the larger cities in the united states actually had good transit systems before the auto companies kinda shoved them out. <-- it's a bit more complicated than that. many tram systems were run by people trying to cash in on land development deals and were never meant to run on a profit themselves

L446[15:38:16] <falalilal> they're talking about lightbulbs tho lol

L447[15:38:21] <Eddi|zuHause> so after the land was sold, no maintenance was put in

L448[15:38:42] <Eddi|zuHause> and they were totally run down by the time "the car companies killed them"

L449[15:38:58] ⇦ Quits: Althego (Althego!~Althego@5400BFB2.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) (Quit: HMI Module Alpha Humana on approach to Space Station Mercury)

L450[15:39:01] <JVFoxy> Rolf not having power not really a big deal for camper. There are ways to remedy it, costs a bit though. Solar panel, controller, battery.. got one myself.

L451[15:39:16] <KrazyKrl> well, being in michigan... the car companies almost directly stopped them.

L452[15:40:17] <Eddi|zuHause> tram systems were shut down all over the world, even in places where the car companies had less direct control over them

L453[15:40:18] <JVFoxy> while browsing library DVDs: "What killed the Electric Car?" next to "Revenge of the Electric Car"... hmm...

L454[15:40:48] <Eddi|zuHause> the king is dead, long live the king?

L455[15:40:59] <JVFoxy> Our area had urban electric trams that went way out... Skytrain actually runs along a good portion of the old line

L456[15:41:00] <Rolf> what killed electric car? batteries.

L457[15:41:15] <Rolf> hopefully there will be huge breakthough on power storage

L458[15:41:43] <Eddi|zuHause> tram systems mostly held up in eastern europe, because it was not easy to get proper replacement

L459[15:42:03] <Eddi|zuHause> (by those standards, i live in eastern europe)

L460[15:42:07] <KrazyKrl> not a huge breakthrough, unless you don't look for a while. it always has been a series of incremental changes.

L461[15:42:09] <JVFoxy> Rolf company that made the EV1 electric car decided it wasn't worth the money to invest in the technology. Cars were only leased out to people, then recalled and destroyed. One or two were saved but only after the company had gone in and destroyed the power controller system

L462[15:42:58] <Eddi|zuHause> Rolf: what happened to hydrogen fuel cells?

L463[15:43:17] <Rolf> its not great. hydrogen is most diffult gas to store

L464[15:43:22] <JVFoxy> still being developed.. a couple of companies out here still working on them. Even been testing buses on them

L465[15:43:34] <KrazyKrl> the costs associated with storage and transfer of hydrogen makes them about the same as battery electric cars.

L466[15:43:48] <Rolf> and explosive as additional fun

L467[15:43:58] <Fluburtur> https://youtu.be/rppuoZ198B8

L468[15:43:59] <kmath> YouTube - Heavy Hoempa - Ace of Spades

L469[15:44:00] <JVFoxy> no worse than having propane

L470[15:44:02] <Rolf> pressurized gas cars is interesting but limited range

L471[15:44:06] <JVFoxy> though hydrogen is safer than propane

L472[15:44:20] <JVFoxy> hydrogen when escaping, goes up into the air... propane pools below.

L473[15:44:55] <KrazyKrl> except that hydrogen needs to either be cryogenic, or pressurized to thousands of PSI.

L474[15:45:03] <Eddi|zuHause> <Rolf> pressurized gas cars is interesting but limited range <-- in the old days there were "fireless steam engines"

L475[15:45:20] <KrazyKrl> in the old days, there were flywheel driven busses.

L476[15:45:25] <Eddi|zuHause> they were filled up with hot gas every now and then, and ran on that

L477[15:45:30] <JVFoxy> I was talking to a friend about what became of steam cars... there was one late model, 5 minutes to warm up steam generator, as opposed to half hour for boiler system. nearly same fuel enconomy as gas

L478[15:45:55] <JVFoxy> he said, at one point, people thought steam system was too dangerous. Then added, like having a tank of fuel under your seat was any better

L479[15:45:59] <KrazyKrl> but muh low RPM power.

L480[15:46:18] <JVFoxy> steam had massive amounts of torque... super quiet

L481[15:46:23] <falalilal> it's so weird how even 100 years ago seems like an entirely different world in terms of technology

L482[15:46:31] <KrazyKrl> you can get torque anywhere, the power is what matters.

L483[15:46:37] <KrazyKrl> low RPM power is where it's at.

L484[15:47:08] <JVFoxy> Jay leno had his car running on the highway, said it felt like it drove very happily there

L485[15:47:31] <falalilal> cars don't feel emotions tho

L486[15:47:39] <JVFoxy> even joked about the funny faces people made when they drove by, didn't hear a thing.. wasn't electric, just tiny bit of steam off the back

L487[15:48:12] <Rolf> Eddi|zuHause: interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car if youre interesting on reading more current version

L488[15:48:42] <JVFoxy> falalilal Some of the older steam cars, using boilers, would run out of pressure on the highway. Had to stop, let things build up again after a while. The generator car would go, actually ran better when it was kept going.

L489[15:49:47] <JVFoxy> Rolf flower market in China I think uses a fleet of air powered cart type cars

L490[15:49:49] <KrazyKrl> why didn't they just hook up a steam pump to one of the wheels to pump more steam in?

L491[15:50:34] <Eddi|zuHause> why don't they put a fan next to wind plants to get more wind power?

L492[15:50:54] <JVFoxy> turn the whold world into a generator wheel

L493[15:51:18] <falalilal> my research station has weird shadow on it

L494[15:51:24] <KrazyKrl> the better question is... why don't they use a gravity feed for that 60 tonne genset to store power for peak times on off-peak wind conditions

L495[15:51:25] <Eddi|zuHause> there are tidal power plants

L496[15:51:46] <JVFoxy> KrazyKrl like hydro dam?

L497[15:52:10] <KrazyKrl> oh, sorry. my suggestion was actually resonable :p

L498[15:52:55] <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if they used tital power generators on a large scale, the days would actually get noticeably longer

L499[15:53:06] <JVFoxy> using power to force feed something to store power... then to use that power to feed the grid... might be better to just generator power when needed. Rather than dealing with double losses

L500[15:53:19] <Eddi|zuHause> and then they have discussions about "but the days have been getting longer in the past"

L501[15:53:29] <falalilal> lol

L502[15:53:43] <JVFoxy> wave generators...

L503[15:53:54] <Eddi|zuHause> *tidal

L504[15:54:07] <JVFoxy> lots of ways to produce power

L505[15:54:17] <KrazyKrl> Just take one of those silly water-main turbines... and stick them in the sewage lines. ezmoney.

L506[15:54:46] <Eddi|zuHause> KrazyKrl: you can do that in cities skylines :)

L507[15:54:58] <JVFoxy> KrazyKrl don't knock it... one village out here already uses heat from sewage to heat homes. Said sewage from 3-4 homes can heat one place

L508[15:55:20] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: but that's "biogas"

L509[15:55:38] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: not "use the kinetic energy of flushing toilets"

L510[15:55:39] <KrazyKrl> i mean... it's actually cheaper to run a heat pump out of your basement air to heat your water, than it is to actually burn fuel or use electricity.

L511[15:56:03] <JVFoxy> technically the could biogas but thermal energy.. take a hot shower... system extracts the heat from the water

L512[15:56:27] <KrazyKrl> just line all consumer sewage lines with thermocouples?

L513[15:56:31] <falalilal> wish the poor kerbals luck, i'm about to send them into an impromptu solar journey - they might starve if I can't get back in time.

L514[15:56:50] <KrazyKrl> Just land them on the sun.

L515[15:56:59] <KrazyKrl> take a surface sample.

L516[15:57:11] <JVFoxy> there is a place I worked on, they took it further. Coiled copper pipes around some of the drain pipes.. when you took a shower, the heat of the water going down, pre-heated the water going to the heater

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L518[15:57:52] <KrazyKrl> i mean... concrete plants use preheaters to save like 90% of the costs of heating the clinker.

L519[15:58:17] <Eddi|zuHause> preheaters are totally not a new invention

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L521[16:00:46] <KrazyKrl> well... couldn't that actually be a resonable modification to a hot water heater heat pump? something like a line of alcohol or something that gets curled around the waste lines, and is cooled to about 50f via the hot water heater

L522[16:02:05] <JVFoxy> some people have built their own heat storage system, using a water system. Heat is drawn off panels on the roof, used to heat the storage tank. Then water going to the house hot water tank goes through a coil in the heat tank.

L523[16:02:25] <KrazyKrl> that's just hot water solar, and is as old as piping.

L524[16:02:52] <BPlayer> Why not use a heat exchange mechanism at sewage lines which would retain the heat in the home in the first place?

L525[16:03:03] <Eddi|zuHause> we built a solar water heater back in school

L526[16:03:07] <JVFoxy> BPlayer some places already started doing that

L527[16:03:38] <JVFoxy> heat storage tank also allowed them to heat the house, along with preheating the water to the hot water tank.

L528[16:03:51] <BPlayer> Sounds much easier to me than somehow try to harness the heat from the sewage and transport it somewhere else

L529[16:04:25] <BPlayer> Definitely cheaper on infrastructure

L530[16:04:45] <JVFoxy> BPlayer the place that did it over here first, it was more a test setup... found out takes 3-4 homes to gather enough energy to run heat for 1 home.

L531[16:04:55] <Eddi|zuHause> "transporting heat somewhere else" seems like a terrible idea, unless you're talking about really big scales (like using the heat output of a power plant to heat an entire city)

L532[16:05:05] <BPlayer> Let's run a ponzi heat scheme, then :P

L533[16:05:35] <Eddi|zuHause> "your house could be warm if you recruit 3 new members"?

L534[16:05:59] <JVFoxy> well.. what they more likely do is recover heat from a set of homes, devide the recovered energy back among them. It was just more a way to give an idea how much is involved

L535[16:06:07] <BPlayer> Sign up for heat at 200% interest rates today!!!

L536[16:06:26] <BPlayer> :P

L537[16:06:52] <JVFoxy> ... when you start talking about using liquid salt for heating.. you know you talkin about serious heat

L538[16:07:14] <BPlayer> Well, heat is a terrible form of energy to handle

L539[16:07:27] ⇨ Joins: mec (mec!webchat@174-29-41-130.hlrn.qwest.net)

L540[16:07:32] <BPlayer> There are reasons for using Electricity for so many things :-)

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L542[16:08:21] <JVFoxy> transfer energy through mechanical means has its own problems too

L543[16:08:29] <falalilal> sentinals are like free income aren't they?

L544[16:08:33] <mec> On an SSTO if i have extra/full oxidizer is it better to burn Rapiers until it's gone, or just use nuclear, or use both?

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L546[16:09:19] <BPlayer> mec: Nuclear engines generate much more delta v per unit of fuel than Rapiers

L547[16:09:37] <BPlayer> I believe this still applies if you just "waste" the oxygen

L548[16:09:38] <Eddi|zuHause> BPlayer: depends on which salt, some salts cool when dissolving in water, and some heat up. however, the most common usage of salt in winter is to just lower the freezing temperature of the water

L549[16:09:39] <mec> true but does that counteract the weight of the oxidizer?

L550[16:09:56] <falalilal> yes because you also burn fuel with the rapier

L551[16:10:04] <KrazyKrl> NERV is also super inefficent because its mass is over 2 tonnes.

L552[16:10:14] <BPlayer> mec: If you give me numbers, I might run a quick calculation which effect offsets which

L553[16:10:34] <BPlayer> I need the ISP of the Rapier in the mode you use it and the ISP of the nuclear engine

L554[16:10:52] <KrazyKrl> like 240 and 800 iirc?

L555[16:11:14] <KrazyKrl> 305 vac wet

L556[16:11:57] <mec> ship is 42,895kg, 3040 units of liquid fuel, 1320 units of oxidizer

L557[16:12:08] <mec> that's total weight including fuel

L558[16:12:56] <Eddi|zuHause> with TAC fuel balancer, you can just "dump" the extra oxidizer and run the nukes

L559[16:13:05] <BPlayer> mec: What's the ISP, though?

L560[16:13:38] <KrazyKrl> 305 rapier, 800 nerv

L561[16:13:44] <mec> ya

L562[16:14:21] <KrazyKrl> Except you don't even need oxidizer if you run jets+NERV

L563[16:14:32] <KrazyKrl> but you pay a premium with that 2250kg NERV.

L564[16:14:40] <JVFoxy> if I ever get NERV into space.. I'll probably keep it there, use it to run a tug or something.

L565[16:15:22] <JVFoxy> fuel only SSTO with jets and NERV... its tough, doable but doesn't really give much space for cargo or anything

L566[16:15:26] <Eddi|zuHause> i've wasted a few NERV tugs by disconnecting from them in unsuitible orbits

L567[16:15:29] <KrazyKrl> 3000kg nerv(its bee a while)

L568[16:15:34] <mec> I refilled on a moon, I probably should have just got liquid fuel but I got oxidizer too

L569[16:16:02] <KrazyKrl> yea... unless your SSTO is pushing the limits of the physics engine; the NERV is one of the worst engine choices for an SSTO.

L570[16:16:39] <Eddi|zuHause> a propos moon, does the death star emit enough gravity to keep something in orbit around it?

L571[16:16:46] <BPlayer> mec: Oxidizer and LF have the same mass per unit. You need 11/9 units of Oxidizer per unit of LF for the Rapier, so you will use 1320 + 1080 = 2400 units of mixture to burn the rapier

L572[16:17:44] <KrazyKrl> Everything has enough gravity to form an orbit... it's just the orbit might be a little unstable.

L573[16:17:47] <mec> whats the calculation for deltaV? isp*9.8*ln(full/empty)?

L574[16:18:22] <BPlayer> That should give you a (fictious unit of impulse) of 305 * 2400 = 732 thousand with Rapiers, vs 1080 * 800 = 864 thousand with NERVAs

L575[16:18:32] <Eddi|zuHause> "keep in orbit" implies some sort of stability

L576[16:18:32] <KrazyKrl> for a 150km deathstarbasestationship, it certainly has a non-small gravitational pull.

L577[16:19:34] <BPlayer> mec: If you were to burn only the fuel that goes with the oxidizer, the NERVAs win with impulse. But given that there is more fuel left, you'd have to use it to drag the oxidizer along

L578[16:19:37] <KrazyKrl> Rapier is 2000kg, NERV is 3000kg. Rapier also can be run dry mode in-atmosphere.

L579[16:20:02] <KrazyKrl> and the rapier's dry mode fuel ISP is like 3200sec

L580[16:20:04] <BPlayer> mec: My estimate is: Burn the oxidizer off with the Rapiers first

L581[16:20:20] <falalilal> BPlayer: but you have less liquid fuel for your NERV when you do that

L582[16:20:24] <BPlayer> Your formula for dV is correct

L583[16:20:42] <BPlayer> falalilal: If you looked carefully, that's what I just calculated

L584[16:20:49] <falalilal> I don't do maths

L585[16:20:52] <JVFoxy> deathstar.... 100-160km version 1, 160-900km for second.. depending on source (wiki)

L586[16:21:26] <KrazyKrl> arguing hard science in a science fantasy franchise is a little... useless?

L587[16:21:44] <BPlayer> falalilal: This effect gives you about 18% extra delta-v. Which, I believe, would be more than offset by the fact that you'd still have all that oxidizer to drag along

L588[16:22:00] <Eddi|zuHause> arguing stuff in a computer game channel is "not useless"?

L589[16:22:15] <mec> and fuel/oxidizer? weights 5kg per unit

L590[16:22:39] <BPlayer> mec: Yes

L591[16:22:55] <BPlayer> Let's calculate thoroughly, then

L592[16:23:20] <BPlayer> If you first burn all the fuel with rapiers, then burn all that's left with NERVAs, vs if you only use NERVAs

L593[16:23:25] <JVFoxy> some reason I thought NERV was 7tons..

L594[16:23:37] <BPlayer> NERV? Not NERVA?

L595[16:23:49] <KrazyKrl> NERV is 3000kg. Rapier is 2000kg

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L597[16:25:35] <mec> doing rapier then nerv: 305*9.8*ln(42895/30895)=980.9 + 800*9.8*ln(30895/21095)=3000

L598[16:26:19] <JVFoxy> I might be thinking something else.. or a mod I once used

L599[16:26:27] <mec> just nerv: 800*9.8*ln(42895/27695)=3430

L600[16:27:03] <BPlayer> mec: You can use ;calc <formula> in this channel :-)

L601[16:27:32] <mec> how would you calculate using both at the same time?

L602[16:28:14] <KrazyKrl> use more parenthesis

L603[16:28:21] <BPlayer> You need the thrust of both engines for a weighted average

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L605[16:28:34] <falalilal> KrazyKrl: what do you imagine would be a good use of our collective time? i feel like everything I do is just about waiting for death.

L606[16:29:17] <mec> hmm nerv is 60, 4 rapiers is 720

L607[16:29:28] <BPlayer> That is, engine a has an ISP of 100 and a thrust of 4, engine b has an ISP of 200 and thrust of 6, weighted average would be 4/10 * 100 + 6/10 * 200

L608[16:29:55] <BPlayer> That's what you take for the ISP value, at least

L609[16:30:12] <Eddi|zuHause> <JVFoxy> deathstar.... 100-160km version 1, 160-900km for second.. depending on source (wiki) <-- the problem with that number is the death star is not solid metal, so you can't easily compare it with similarly sized actual moons

L610[16:30:40] <BPlayer> Keep in mind this applies only for the time both engines have fuel. The Rapier runs out of fuel soon, though, so you end up having another phase of NERV only

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L612[16:31:41] <BPlayer> I believe this will yield less dV, though

L613[16:31:52] <Fluburtur> I should sharpen my sword again

L614[16:32:09] <mec> ya 4 rapiers use 26.48 oxidizer/sec so they will run for 49.8 seconds

L615[16:32:22] <JVFoxy> Eddi|zuHause I don't know... realize when the movies were being made, was back in the 70's.. we had only just started doing more space related things in the real world. 'Moon's, probably meant something more akin to 'Earth's moon'. Honestly, I fell a bit from the franchise a long while back.

L616[16:33:16] <BPlayer> Because if you use the rapier (lowest ISP engine) first, you burn lots of fuel away, then use the high ISP engine and little fuel for lots of delta v. If you use the high ISP engine first, you burn a little fuel and have to haul the bulk of it for the high ISP engine

L617[16:33:32] <BPlayer> So you want to use the low ISP rapier first

L618[16:33:42] <KrazyKrl> Well, if you treat it more like fantasy with dragons and space voodoo; you can have some fun. If you treat it like harder science fiction, you're gunna have problems.

L619[16:33:58] <BPlayer> What /might/ make sense is burning part of the oxidizer off with the Rapier and using the NERV with a little extra fuel

L620[16:34:04] <Eddi|zuHause> JVFoxy: i won't discuss the movie-usage of the word "moon" here, but certainly we knew about a few dozen moons even in the 60s

L621[16:34:28] <mec> that seems like it would be hard to calculate

L622[16:34:56] <KrazyKrl> Yep, tuning the oxydizer load in SSTOs is pretty important. But remember that NERVs aren't really intended to be high TWR, low dry mass engines.

L623[16:35:08] <falalilal> what about the kash value of the oxizider? maybe you want to save it and bring it back!

L624[16:35:28] <JVFoxy> Jupiter, Saturn.. outer planets

L625[16:35:32] <BPlayer> You'd have to make a function of total delta-v a sum of the two individual burns, and make it depend on the percentage of oxidizer you use for the Rapiers. Then minimize the function

L626[16:35:33] <KrazyKrl> just mine some LFO out of the fuel tank at the landing pad, ezmoney.

L627[16:36:16] <JVFoxy> any case.. someone said Deathstar seemed to have no 'outside gravity'... considering its size..

L628[16:36:21] <Eddi|zuHause> is that possible?

L629[16:36:44] <KrazyKrl> when i last played, you could get LFO out of the KSC fuel tanks via a drill.

L630[16:36:51] <JVFoxy> lol

L631[16:36:59] <Eddi|zuHause> i've never actually used a drill

L632[16:37:01] <BPlayer> LOL

L633[16:37:20] <BPlayer> So no Ore mining and processing, but direct LFO mining?

L634[16:38:24] <Eddi|zuHause> "when i last played", is that before or after 1.0? :p

L635[16:38:25] <JVFoxy> forget middle guy.. straight to the source

L636[16:38:47] <KrazyKrl> before 1.0 maybe

L637[16:39:00] <KrazyKrl> it wasn't too much after resources were actually added, lol.

L638[16:39:33] <Eddi|zuHause> (when i got the game, it was on 1.0.5)

L639[16:39:33] <KrazyKrl> "last played 4/22/2013" uhh... oh my.

L640[16:39:55] <Eddi|zuHause> some recent steam update broke the date format :/

L641[16:40:17] <falalilal> KrazyKrl: so you're in this channel, telling people how to enjoy talking about a game that you haven't played in 5 years?

L642[16:40:33] <KrazyKrl> rocket science doesn't change.

L643[16:40:34] <Eddi|zuHause> falalilal: that's really not so uncommon

L644[16:40:47] <KrazyKrl> and the game is after alpha, so the major features should be frozen.

L645[16:40:52] <Eddi|zuHause> falalilal: if you've been to a few gaming channels

L646[16:40:58] <mec> i get 4039dV from both then nerv, 3981dV from rapier then nerv, and 3430 from just nerv

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L648[16:41:09] <mec> thats weird, i would have also expected burning all the oxidizer first would be better

L649[16:41:22] <KrazyKrl> you can't use just the NERV, since you need a dry jet engine to get you there.

L650[16:41:29] <mec> im on minmus

L651[16:42:43] <KrazyKrl> does the just nerv portion count jettisoning all oxidizer and using just the NERV?

L652[16:42:54] <mec> no, i don't think you can do that

L653[16:43:00] <KrazyKrl> with mods you can.

L654[16:43:18] <mec> i guess i could burn it all up and then mine some more LF

L655[16:43:47] <KrazyKrl> i mean... if you're running a fueling station, wasted dV literally does not matter before takeoff.

L656[16:44:26] <KrazyKrl> or you could just, say, transfer the oxy out of the craft, and launch with LF only.

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L658[16:45:04] <falalilal> burn the oxidizer while grounded

L659[16:45:40] <KrazyKrl> there is no reason to burn it off if you can transfer it into a tank.

L660[16:45:53] <falalilal> maybe he can't tho

L661[16:46:13] <KrazyKrl> [30:17:43:18] <mec> i guess i could burn it all up and then mine some more LF

L662[16:46:18] <Eddi|zuHause> "you touch it you buy it, no refunds"

L663[16:46:21] <KrazyKrl> e.g. there is tank space with some LFO

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L665[16:46:41] <mec> my mining rig is part of my spaceplane

L666[16:47:05] <falalilal> you've got some crazy designs lol

L667[16:47:22] <KrazyKrl> oof... running a NERV and ISRU stuff must dumpster your cargo capacity.

L668[16:47:35] <mec> lol wuts cargo

L669[16:47:39] <KrazyKrl> exactly.

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L671[16:48:02] <Eddi|zuHause> unrelated: i've been meaning to ask, can i edit actions (1-9, light, gear, etc.) while in flight?

L672[16:48:25] <mec> only with a mod

L673[16:49:04] <Eddi|zuHause> because i can't see any gameplay reason why that should be restricted to VAB

L674[16:49:52] <KrazyKrl> i mean... there might not be an elegant way of adding it?

L675[16:50:00] <KrazyKrl> even though KSP has been out for like 7 years.

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L677[16:52:49] <DracoLinux> trying to clone this thing's SSD because I wanna try something else with it.

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L679[16:58:37] <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a "famous last words" entry

L680[17:01:08] <JVFoxy> uff... whoops, forgot a bigger RW.. this is going to make for interesting landing on mun

L681[17:01:59] <JVFoxy> at least with high polar orbit relay.. radio connection will last a tiny bit longer

L682[17:04:24] <KrazyKrl> well, that's when you send up a multiple microsat in which you decouple and make differing mid-course corrections to deploy the communications cluster on the same day.

L683[17:09:37] <JVFoxy> ... huh?

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L685[17:13:15] <KrazyKrl> MIRV, but instead of nukes, they are comsats.

L686[17:14:22] <KrazyKrl> (but everyone knows that project Eeloo should have never been cancelled)

L687[17:14:24] <Fluburtur> candy canisters

L688[17:14:35] <Fluburtur> oh I upgraded the koyuz a bit as well

L689[17:15:15] <KrazyKrl> "please do not moisten the fairing plate"

L690[17:15:23] <Fluburtur> heh

L691[17:15:40] <Fluburtur> I changed the booster separation a bit and made a new vessel

L692[17:15:51] <Fluburtur> with a nice escape system

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L695[17:16:28] <JVFoxy> KrazyKrl here: https://youtu.be/n2eBwgW6sig?t=1m10s

L696[17:16:46] <JVFoxy> btw.. who says you have to do mid-course corrections?

L697[17:17:11] <KrazyKrl> mid course corrections are very efficent dV-wise.

L698[17:17:47] <KrazyKrl> i.e. you can swap between normal and retrograde orbits for like 0.5 m/sec dV

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L700[17:18:00] <JVFoxy> well if you launching 250 micro sats and shotgunning them at a planet..

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L709[17:29:11] <JVFoxy> .... whoops

L710[17:29:53] <JVFoxy> gotta love timewarp... https://imgur.com/a/BkzI0sV

L711[17:29:54] <kmath> https://i.imgur.com/8UHfSTM.png

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L713[17:32:32] <mec> all that working to get rid of the extra ox and it only gave me 100dV more

L714[17:33:54] <BPlayer> That's 100 m/s you may end up needing in order to land your crew

L715[17:34:11] <BPlayer> Any 100 m/s of free delta v are good 100 m/s of delta v

L716[17:39:28] <JVFoxy> Ok.. so somehow I managed to go 119km under water... generate 183117 out of 4000 needed to crush kerbal parts..

L717[17:39:42] <JVFoxy> kPa....

L718[17:41:10] <BPlayer> JVFoxy: RUS = Rapid Unscheduled Submersion

L719[17:42:28] <JVFoxy> well did try to unwarp but wasn't fast enough.

L720[17:42:45] <JVFoxy> went directly from mun straight into kerbin's water

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L722[17:45:11] <BPlayer> No worries, that's part of the MarsDirect mission proposal

L723[17:46:02] <KrazyKrl> Unity physics engine - "This is a reasonable result."

L724[17:46:56] <JVFoxy> wanted to revert anyways.. forgot to add a few experiments

L725[17:47:12] <JVFoxy> also, polar orbital relay didn't really do a whole lot

L726[17:47:22] <JVFoxy> suppose I could jump it in higher orbit, though later

L727[17:47:29] <UmbralRaptop> Unity: No one has improved on numeric integration since Isaac Newton" physics

L728[17:47:47] <UmbralRaptop> s/: / "/

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L731[17:49:57] <BPlayer> Unity: See, Isaac was a great guy. Thank you Isaac.

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L739[18:28:02] <JVFoxy> I don't suppose anyone here has made mods for KSP?

L740[18:29:17] <darsie> I think I've seen Ferram here (or in #ro ?)

L741[18:29:51] <darsie> He's in #ro

L742[18:30:59] <JVFoxy> lol..

L743[18:31:16] <JVFoxy> just some ideas I had.. wondered if even possible... charging for use of launch pad

L744[18:32:02] <darsie> Charging for you own launchpad?

L745[18:32:10] <darsie> That you built with your own money?

L746[18:32:48] <UmbralRaptop> Maintenance costs?

L747[18:34:18] <JVFoxy> sorry, just small part of a bigger idea I've got... this wouldn't be at kerbals own home world

L748[18:35:28] <JVFoxy> pad is shared resource with some another NPC angency...

L749[18:36:43] <JVFoxy> altho.... launching from a pad, depending on size of craft could incur repair costs after each launch for more 'stock game'.

L750[18:47:06] <KrazyKrl> extraplanetary launchpads might have this feature.

L751[18:52:54] <JVFoxy> I've also considered a station or two in fixed orbit from another agency you could fly up to

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L756[19:05:16] <Glass|phone> my 3d printer just arrived

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L758[19:15:19] <falalilal> you should print out another 3d printer and then send it back to get your money back

L759[19:16:59] <UmbralRaptop> (Getting the computer and metal parts is an exercise left up to the reader)

L760[19:22:06] <falalilal> don't bring your facts and logic into this

L761[19:22:48] <Glass|phone> you can 3d print working 3d printers, with the caveat mentioned by UmbralRaptop

L762[19:25:06] <UmbralRaptop> I mean, metal parts that you can get cheaply from home despot are not a big deal. But the nozzle might be, and the motors definitely are.

L763[19:25:37] <Glass|phone> Because my printer is made in china it contains safety features such as a three prong grounded plug that basically don't exist in japan

L764[19:26:03] <Glass|phone> UmbralRaptop: nozzles are cheap

L765[19:26:38] <UmbralRaptop> Glass|phone: that helps

L766[19:26:51] <UmbralRaptop> Also, the prong part is amusing.

L767[19:27:44] <Glass|phone> we only have screw terminals for ground, and I only have one of them for my entire room

L768[19:28:41] <Glass|phone> so I will have to get an adapter and a ground extension cable

L769[19:28:58] * UmbralRaptop recalls some extension cord shenanigans at a previous place because of a lack of 3 prong outlets.

L770[19:29:19] <Glass|phone> I just know that most people would just get the adapter and leave the ground floating in the air

L771[19:30:21] <UmbralRaptop> hrm

L772[19:31:18] <Glass|phone> and the hilarious thing is, you can force the screw terminal blades into a live outlet, they more or less fit

L773[19:31:22] <JVFoxy> .... 3d printing electronics and boards... that would be interesting

L774[19:31:48] <Glass|phone> JVFoxy: some people appear to have built printers that can extrude solder

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L776[19:32:10] <JVFoxy> also whoops.. rocket got waaaaaay to much DV

L777[19:32:56] <JVFoxy> Glass|Phone EDM... electrical discharge machine.. uses electricity to super heat little bits of metal and weld them together, much like 3d printer

L778[19:33:14] <Glass|phone> idk but unless you are at war with both china and the US you can get PCBs made for dirt cheap

L779[19:33:33] <JVFoxy> dad back when I was a kid, gave me a metal object. Had Mitsubishi symbol on one side, metal morphed to the letters EDM

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L790[21:42:34] <Jennifer> Evenin', anyone about?

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L792[21:48:34] <UmbralRaptop> somewhat

L793[22:05:37] <Jennifer> Messing with the Acapello version of the LEM. Trying to recreate Apollo 9, basically.

L794[22:06:10] <Jennifer> Can't find how to split the LEM into upper and lower halves. Is the KSP version all one piece, with just a lower engine?

L795[22:07:53] <Eddi|zuHause> random piece of music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBjdE3A7Xuc&index=42&list=PLCB801CBC132E92DA

L796[22:07:53] <kmath> YouTube - Die Gilde - Burgfräulein

L797[22:09:02] <Eddi|zuHause> (not that despite the name similarity, i have no relation to that user)

L798[22:09:11] <Eddi|zuHause> *note

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L800[22:29:53] <UmbralRaptop> I'd need to double check, but want to say that the making history LEM is just the upper stage, and you need to build the lower stag out of other parts?

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L804[22:34:39] <Jennifer> They did make a lower stage, just didn't seem to put a decoupler between them.

L805[22:35:48] <Jennifer> I noticed there's only two stages to their version of Apollo, too. No equiv of the second stage.

L806[22:36:36] <Jennifer> Not that they really need one, but it feels weird to boost to the Mun with the first rather than third stage.

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L812[22:54:30] <UmbralRaptop> Ah, I missed that this was the Acapella 13 scenario initially >_>;;

L813[22:55:48] <UmbralRaptop> Yeah, side effect of the small size. On the other hand, *gestures at interplanetary missions that use(d) anything with a centaur upper stage*

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