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L17[01:32:30] <Shane> mechjeb. cheating or
nah
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L22[01:43:26] <lpg> up to you
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L24[01:47:42] <Japa> Apollo Guidance
computer: Cheating or nah?
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L26[01:51:01] <JCB> .. what about the
AGC?
L27[01:54:50] <lpg> cheating or nah?
L28[02:02:07] <JCB> mean.. in real life or
in game?
L29[02:03:43] <JCB> I don't think its
cheaty... then again, I know a lot about it myself
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L33[02:17:54] <Blaank> I can't really say
it's cheaty when IRL people used it in the 60's
L34[02:18:17] <Blaank> That's kind of not
cheating unless you think they should have gone to the moon raw
dogging it with no maneuver planner.
L35[02:18:38] <Blaank> The navball is
cheating. DV readouts are cheating. Doing math to figure out your
TWR is cheating.
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L37[02:21:03] <JCB> those days, people
didn't exactly read things out in DV
L38[02:21:27] <JCB> what I think is most
cheaty is how much fine control ksp engines are allowed to
have
L39[02:22:28] <JCB> the LEM has the most
control of its descent engine. Even that was limited. It was
capable of 1g thrust down to something like 10%, in
incriments.
L40[02:22:58] <tawny> I find myself never
really caring about that part, honestly
L41[02:23:17] <tawny> the times at which my
engines aren't either at full throttle or off are very few
L42[02:26:39] <Oneiros> i think reaction
wheels are cheating..
L43[02:27:34] <JCB> the AGC was more for
guidance and instrumentation.. also helped run some of the optical
tools onboard. A lot of the figuring out was done on the ground by
bigger mainframes
L44[02:27:39] <Oneiros> it even looks
cooler using rcs to control attitude, and makes you attempt to be
more efficient at it.
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L46[02:29:12] <JCB> reaction wheels do seem
a touch.. over powered. there are systems that actually use RW..
the biggest being the ISS.. smallest being MOST, which I was just
reading up on. It was a small suitcase sized telescope built by
Canadians
L47[02:36:20] <Oneiros> it must be a huge
mechanism on the iss
L48[02:37:46] <JCB> a pair of units on the
truss section.. I think each has 4 gyros each
L49[02:42:23] <tawny> the ISS's gyros are
enormous also
L51[02:44:54] <tawny> although, that'd
probably be about the size of a 1.25m or 2.5m reaction wheel part
in KSP, I guess
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L68[04:59:43] <JCB> hhhhhrrrg...
L69[05:00:26] <JCB> launching at the right
time to do a direct rendezvous with an already orbiting
part...
L70[05:00:34] <JCB> lol.. sometimes feels
like hit or mis
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L97[08:58:52] <GuestBanana> Hi all and
happy new years!
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L100[09:01:14] <darsie> Merry
Christmas!
L101[09:01:44] <petti> Jolly Waiting For
The Friggint Summer Already!
L102[09:03:04] <madmerlyn> hi
L103[09:03:05] <Mod9000> Hello,
madmerlyn
L104[09:03:09] <GuestBanana> hello
L105[09:03:12] <Mod9000> Hello,
GuestBanana
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L118[10:17:04] <ve2dmn> good morning
fellow rocketeers.
L119[10:20:01] <madmerlyn> hi
L120[10:20:05] <Mod9000> Hello,
madmerlyn
L121[10:20:10] <madmerlyn> heh
L122[10:20:18] <Althego> hehe
L123[10:20:26] <madmerlyn> Mod9000 always
there to make you feel not alone in the universe, unlike all the
aliens who are clearly avoiding us
L124[10:21:00] <Althego> maybe they are
just not in our light cone
L125[10:21:24] <madmerlyn> that's what I
never understood about the Prime Directive in Star Trek, if a
civilization hasn't achieved warp yet, but has already advanced to
basic space travel, why make them feel like they're alone?
L126[10:21:44] <Althego> because it would
change their progression
L127[10:21:53] <madmerlyn> but they're
already exploring space
L128[10:22:02] <ve2dmn> too
disruptive
L129[10:22:03] <Althego> there was an
episode about it
L130[10:22:15] <Althego> where the
population, including politicians were xenophobic
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L132[10:22:28] <Althego> and they noticed
the observers
L133[10:23:06] <madmerlyn> well any alpha
species is going to have warlike past etc., but I don't think
discovering warp technology in itself is a good metric to establish
that they are beyond their primal instincts as a society
L134[10:23:09] <madmerlyn> look at the
Klingons
L135[10:23:23] <Althego> klingons are
relatively ok
L136[10:23:41] <madmerlyn> isn't their
entire social structure built around war?
L137[10:23:47] <Althego> but also around
honor
L138[10:24:16] <Althego> compare it to the
dominion
L139[10:24:47] <ve2dmn> honour*
L140[10:26:13] <madmerlyn> I just don't
think a civilization's ideology is going to be fundamentally
changed by the discovery of warp, Prime Directive should include
making peaceful contact with any space-faring civilization, and
actively preventing espionage from any that are overtly aggressive
or xenophobic
L141[10:26:50] <madmerlyn> I mean look at
us here on Earth, call me a dreamer but I think if intelligent life
confirmed its existence to us we'd see a drastic change for the
better in world-views amongst most populations
L142[10:27:03] <madmerlyn> to the point
where we might actually all come together as a species like the
humans in Star Trek did
L143[10:27:24] <Althego> just avoid the
borg invasion first :)
L144[10:28:43] <madmerlyn> in Star Trek
lore wasn't there still international war on Earth when warp was
discovered too? Wasn't it the arrival of the Vulcans that radically
changed humanity's perspective?
L145[10:28:58] <Althego> they were after a
nuclear war
L146[10:29:13] <Kalpa> Cochrane was a
hippie
L147[10:29:17] <Althego> yes
L148[10:29:42] <Althego> launch to magic
carpet ride lol
L149[10:30:12] <ve2dmn> Tom Cochrane is a
hippie?
L150[10:30:23] <Althego> zefram
L151[10:39:21] <ve2dmn> Zefrank is a
hippie?
L153[10:40:14] <kmath> YouTube - Star Trek
Zefram Cochrane Warp Flight
L154[10:40:38] <Althego> note that
trajectory, velocity, and distance is completely off
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L156[10:47:26] <GuestBanana> Q: What's the
best way to get into Star Trek as a whole?
L157[10:48:22] <Althego> not with
abrams
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L159[10:55:44] <ve2dmn> never seen that
movie
L160[10:57:08] <ve2dmn> Althego: they had
to buy the rights for that song...
L161[10:57:21] <ve2dmn> ...or did it last
only 8 seconds in the movie?
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L164[11:00:28] <TheKosmonaut> GuestBanana:
You dont need to watch it chronologically really
L165[11:00:33] <TheKosmonaut> I mean, not
by series anyway
L166[11:00:43] <TheKosmonaut> But I'd
honestly go for TNG first
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L168[11:01:37] <ve2dmn> TheKosmonaut: the
reason I didn't get into star trek as a kid is that the stories
required that your knew a bit of the background first
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L170[11:01:55] <TheKosmonaut> You dont
really need much TOS knowledge to get into TNG
L171[11:02:19] <ve2dmn> I know in insight
it's irrelevant, but I was trying to remember who what species was
and got real confused real fast
L172[11:03:26] <madmerlyn> I think TOS was
kinda like the SW OT, I mean yeah it's there and it's canon, but
things didn't really get fleshed out until people started writing
novels and subsequent series/movies came out
L173[11:03:27] <Althego> ve2dmn: yes, that
was the whole lenght
L174[11:03:51] <madmerlyn> some of TOS
stuff is really really dated and not in-line with ST as a
whole
L175[11:04:40] <madmerlyn> and when people
mention TOS I always think of that scene where the extra was
turning an imaginary gear on the wall
L176[11:04:54] <Althego> tos has its
charm, but honestly i find kirk annoying and it is really
dated
L177[11:05:41] <madmerlyn> if anything TNG
really fleshed the universe out
L178[11:05:44] <ve2dmn> imaginary
gear?
L179[11:05:55] <Althego> what is
that
L180[11:05:56] <madmerlyn> so much so that
they had spinoff mania with Voyager and DS9
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L184[11:08:14] <madmerlyn> I mean there is
technically a crank in his hand, but what is it attached to, and
why would there be a crank on a *highly advanced starship* in a
hallway?
L186[11:08:49] <JCB> gotta realize.. back
when TOS was being made, it was sort of a different world back then
on earth too
L187[11:09:15] <Althego> yes
L188[11:09:18] <Althego> very much
L189[11:09:28] <ve2dmn> very yes
L190[11:09:42] <Althego> and it was about
that too. that is why it has an international crew
L191[11:09:50] <madmerlyn> "oi
Captain, the clockwork that drives the automatic door to this
crewman's cabin needs to be wound back up, lemme crank
it"
L192[11:10:11] <Althego> maybe that let us
closer to that world a bit. after all there is an iss
L193[11:10:27] <ve2dmn> Let's hope
so
L194[11:10:35] <madmerlyn> do you think
they have cranks on the ISS? :P
L195[11:10:41] <Althego> yes
L196[11:10:44] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn:
yes
L197[11:10:51] <Althego> maybe some
special zero torque ones
L198[11:10:53] <JCB> There was also a
number of struggles with production just with the idea of what the
series was about
L199[11:11:13] <ve2dmn> the thing that
opens and closes the windows shutters
L200[11:11:30] <madmerlyn> "this is
the ISS dynamo, we crank it to power our laptops so we don't have
to plug them in."
L202[11:11:44] <kmath> YouTube - 7 HOLES
in the Space Station - Smarter Every Day 135
L203[11:11:46] <JCB> actually.. there is a
little crank for the shutters on the ISS coupula dome
L204[11:12:26] <madmerlyn> that's a
logical place for a crank though
L205[11:12:46] <madmerlyn> it's not on an
interior hallway randomly attached to nothing on the wall
L206[11:12:54] <Althego> i think i saw
this video
L207[11:12:58] <Althego> the 7 holes
L208[11:13:04] <JCB> maybe he was cranking
on a flow tube for some fluid or gas line
L209[11:13:35] <madmerlyn> gas on an
antimatter powered starship?
L210[11:13:43] <Althego> certainly
L211[11:13:46] <JCB> mind you.. a bare
wall, then suddenly some 'greeble' in one spot... then you look at
TNG's hallways..
L212[11:13:50] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn:
water
L213[11:14:01] <JCB> gas.. coulda been
O2
L214[11:14:19] <Althego> gor example
L215[11:14:31] <Althego> still can be lot
of pneumatic mechanisms
L216[11:14:39] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: but
yeah, it looks very silly
L217[11:15:12] <JCB> idea in acting was to
make the ship look like it was active.. lived in
L218[11:15:21] <ve2dmn> it's a bad filming
but visual medium should be self-explanitory
L219[11:15:36] <ve2dmn> -but
+because
L220[11:16:10] <JCB> it would have
probably looked pretty boring, weird if there was no one there at
all...
L221[11:16:47] <JCB> or.. I don't know,
maybe they were trying things out. Could have had people just
walking by too..
L222[11:16:54] <ve2dmn> JCB: it makes it
looks like a 1800s ship, not far future
L223[11:17:18] <ve2dmn> If you look at the
modern equivalent, it's people looking at screens
L224[11:17:20] <JCB> heh.. blame it on low
budget?
L225[11:18:16] <ve2dmn> that will probably
look weird to someone in the future
L226[11:18:42] <Althego> as usual
L227[11:18:46] <ve2dmn> but a ship from
the future acting like a 'modern' submarine or sea vessel?
sure
L228[11:18:52] <JCB> then again.. someone
looking at a computer panel may also look weird as an idea to
someone in our future.. nerual inplants
L229[11:19:01] <Althego> in hindsight most
scifi things are never how people imagined them
L230[11:20:48] <JCB> I'm sort of 'eh', not
sure what to make of the re-do of latest version of startrek
designs.
L231[11:20:53] <madmerlyn> ha I remember
going on Spaceship Earth in 2001 (Epcot) before they updated
it
L232[11:21:02] <madmerlyn> still had the
original 1960s narrative
L233[11:21:09] <Althego> i like the abrams
design
L234[11:21:15] <ve2dmn> they updated
it?
L235[11:21:25] ⇦
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L236[11:21:28] <Althego> i just dont like
that they discarded all the star trek history
L237[11:21:30] <JCB> then again.. I sorta
my own ideas
L238[11:21:37] <madmerlyn> "By the
year 2000, the entire workforce will be replaced by robots and
humans will be free to spend their time on leisurely activities and
more intellectual work"
L239[11:21:57] <Althego> except t hat the
intellectual work is done by ais
L240[11:22:11] <madmerlyn> "food will
largely be replaced by pills, and flying cars will be
common"
L241[11:22:14] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: nah, we
just did like how ancesters did: use these tools to make us more
productive and still work
L242[11:22:56] <Althego> the idea of a
next genertiion ship is stupid. the ship's computer runs ais in its
spare time for the holodeck. it could do all its jobs without
humans
L243[11:23:03] <JCB> self driving cars..
trucks.. now they talk'n about removing pilots from planes... uh..
that might be pushing it a little too much
L244[11:23:21] <Althego> pilots are not
very useful even now
L245[11:23:28] <ve2dmn> ^
L246[11:23:36] <Althego> they are largely
there for other reasons
L247[11:23:52] <JCB> backup... look at the
landing in the river in new york..
L248[11:23:53] <Althego> so that there is
somebody to take responsibility if anything happens
L249[11:23:58] <madmerlyn> the humans on
the TNG bridge were all playing KSP while the ship's computer did
all the work
L250[11:24:09] <Althego> note that many
accidents are caused by the humans
L251[11:24:14] <Althego> you are better
off by removing them
L252[11:24:27] <JCB> going by that
logic... starsihps fly themselves by the time we even get around to
making them.. then agian, that wouldn't make too good a tv
series
L253[11:24:48] <Althego> exactly
L254[11:24:55] <ve2dmn> JCB: give them an
AI, and it might makes a good TV series
L255[11:24:57] <JCB> accidents can be
caused by weather too...
L256[11:24:58] <madmerlyn> I mean our
spaceships already fly themselves now
L257[11:25:01] <Althego> on the other hand
i would say humans would be there because they liek to
explore
L258[11:25:25] <madmerlyn> I think the
only reason astronauts are trained on manual control is for the
event of systems failure
L259[11:25:31] <ve2dmn> Althego: exactly.
Took me 50h to be bored of No Man Sky
L260[11:25:33] ⇦
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L261[11:25:36] <JCB> human exisistance is
starting to look pretty grim
L262[11:25:45] <ve2dmn> Also took me 400h
to be bored of Minecraft
L263[11:25:53] <Althego> and ksp?
L264[11:26:01] <ve2dmn> not bored yet, too
many mods
L265[11:26:17] <ve2dmn> 1550h according to
Steam
L266[11:26:38] <ve2dmn> Speaking of which,
I didn't make it into space today
L267[11:27:03] <madmerlyn> there's a
reason Hawking and Musk think AI is dangerous
L268[11:27:19] <Althego> let it be
dangerous
L269[11:27:45] <JCB> eh.. Musk wants all
cars AI driven
L270[11:27:46] <madmerlyn> if there's any
real evidence of humanity's existence 1 billion years from now,
it'll be in the form of AIs we've built that have managed to
endure
L271[11:27:50] <Althego> humans die?
nothing of value has been lost. as long as the machnes remember us
as their creators, and store history and culture
L272[11:27:57] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: There
is an interesting video in the last CCC about 'corporation as very
slow AI'
L273[11:28:08] <madmerlyn> yes but Musk
started openAI or whatever to promote a conservative, safe
development path of AI
L274[11:28:22] <madmerlyn> he has serious
concerns about some of the military stuff etc. that's being
developed
L275[11:29:17] <ve2dmn> If we build an AI,
will it view us as a cat, a dog, a friend, a cow, a pig or a
fly?
L276[11:29:21] <JCB> having a machine to
decide who dies or lives... though that also depends on what sort
of stuff you feed the machine to decide that. Or the limits
L277[11:29:53] <ve2dmn> Think about how,
we, act toward other creatures and the AI will probably follow
similar trend. Some more hardcore then others
L278[11:30:24] <madmerlyn> the key
difference is AI won't have an impetus to kill and eat us
L279[11:30:42] <JCB> just hope the ai
doesn't have a glitch..
L280[11:30:49] <madmerlyn> although if AI
reaches "singularity" levels it could use our matter to
reconfigure into micromachines
L281[11:30:52] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: instead
we will have 'Brave New World' or 'we lucky Few' as a
distopia?
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L283[11:31:20] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: or turn
us into them, slowly, organ by organ
L284[11:31:33] <madmerlyn> borg.
L285[11:31:40] <ve2dmn> kind of
L286[11:31:40] <madmerlyn> AI turns us
into borg
L287[11:31:48] <madmerlyn> but without the
necessary organic component
L288[11:31:53] <JCB> then again.. with AI
like with phones, people would probably want the next best thing,
even if it comes out ever few weeks. This idea of the scene from
i-robot... machine graveyard
L289[11:32:04] <ve2dmn> So, like in
Stellaris: Assimilator, Exterminator or Rogue Servitor
L290[11:32:22] <madmerlyn> I doubt there'd
be robot graveyards, there'd be robot recycling centers
L291[11:32:28] <ve2dmn> JCB: was it a good
movie?
L292[11:32:35]
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L294[11:33:09] <JCB> guess it was ok.. was
based on book, didn't really read it. Friend had a copy, though at
the time was pretty young.
L295[11:33:28] <ve2dmn> I read the books,
that's why I didn't see the film
L296[11:33:49] <ve2dmn> got told it
vaguely ressembled the books...
L297[11:34:05] <JCB> some of it was filmed
across the river from where I lived
L298[11:34:11] <madmerlyn> if you think
about it, even the "latest model" will require a lot of
the same components, there is already a demand to recycle them in
that respect
L299[11:34:56] <madmerlyn> there might be
landfills filled with parts of robots that weren't valuable or
useful enough to recycle though, if we don't embrace recycling more
aggressively by the time we're building AI robots en masse
L300[11:35:20] <JCB> CGI movie Robots was
pretty good. Friend found he had to watch it several times and was
still finding a lot of details he missed
L301[11:35:53] <JCB> sorta touches on the
idea of tossing out the old, for newer, though not always in best
interests.
L302[11:35:55] <Althego> i prefer the
cybran nation from supcom
L303[11:36:00] <ve2dmn> Someone told me to
watch 'ex-machina'
L304[11:36:59] <ve2dmn> Althego: so let
the AI do the background process and do the strategic
thinking?
L305[11:37:17] <Althego> it is not
specified what the components do
L306[11:37:31] <Althego> they are jsut
define themselves as an organic-ai hybrid
L307[11:37:46] <ve2dmn> Although, if I
remember correctly, they are succeptible to 'hacking'
L308[11:38:39] ⇦
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L309[11:38:47] <JCB> ghost in the shell...
people's implants could get hacked..
L310[11:38:54] <madmerlyn> sufficiently
advanced AI could only feasibly be hacked by another advanced
AI
L311[11:38:56] <ve2dmn> but I guess it
makes them no different then to the religious cults in supcom
L312[11:39:17] <madmerlyn> once the AIs
start designing themselves they'll be well beyond the realm of
human capability to reverse engineer in a meaningful manner
L313[11:39:29] <JCB> heh.. I've seen
someone hack a SNES through the game controller.. not easy but was
able to turn it into another game
L314[11:39:41] <Althego> in supcome the
only side that is moreally ok are the cybrans
L315[11:39:44] <madmerlyn> and SNES was
designed by humans like 30 years ago
L316[11:39:56] <Althego> even though they
have spiky red-black structures, they are the good
L317[11:39:59] <ve2dmn> JCB: SMB3 is now
beatable under 2 sec thanks to that
L318[11:40:11] <Althego> the other two
sides are out for destruction
L319[11:40:20] <Althego> or religious
fanatics
L320[11:40:24] <JCB> meh... never cared
for speed runs
L321[11:40:52] <ve2dmn> JCB: it's a tool
assited speedrun... requires something like 8000 inputs per
second
L322[11:41:31] <ve2dmn> All Hail our
TASbot overlords
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L325[11:41:52] <JCB> ya.. they hooked a
controller board to the game controller. exploited some kinks in
the SNES hardware to get into the memory, change things
around
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L327[11:47:05] <ve2dmn> great... my
parents just lost power in this frigid weather. Let's hope the pipe
don't burst
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L329[11:47:23] <Althego> that wouldnt have
changed the heating here
L330[11:47:50] <ve2dmn> You probably don't
have cheap power
L331[11:49:16] <madmerlyn> a lot of US
homes have both cheap power and non-electric heating
L332[11:49:31] <Althego> heating has
almost nothing to do with the powergrid
L333[11:49:33] <madmerlyn> especially in
the north, where gas furnaces are more economical than heat
pumps
L334[11:49:53] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: I don't
think you understand how 'cheap' we have it
L335[11:50:15] <madmerlyn> I have a heat
pump because we only have on average a dozen or so days below
freezing in my region
L336[11:50:25] <madmerlyn> but many homes
even in my area still use gas for heating
L337[11:50:30] <madmerlyn> which does not
require grid power to function
L338[11:51:26] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: yes,
but my electric bill, which include heating, is less then 150CAD
per month
L339[11:51:47] <ve2dmn> can be as low as
45CAD some months
L340[11:51:49] <madmerlyn> in Canada I
doubt you're using a pure electric heating system
L341[11:52:52] <madmerlyn> ground
temperatures aren't stable enough unless you go deeper than normal
for a heat pump, and using a thermal coil with raw AC isn't
economical even with cheap electricity
L342[11:52:53] <ve2dmn> I know very few
people with gas heating
L343[11:53:31] <ve2dmn> We aren't using
heat pump below -15C if that is what you are thinking
L345[11:56:22] <madmerlyn> doesn't matter,
if you're using a pure electric system to heat your home, you're
going to use substantially more electricity to the point of it far
exceeding market value for natural gas
L346[11:56:58] <JCB> we use gas here on
west coast Canada.. but still need use of power
L347[11:57:59] <madmerlyn> if I lived up
north I'd have a potbelly stove and/or generator
L348[11:58:17] <madmerlyn> let the
convection from the stove push the air through the ventillation
system
L350[11:59:25] <JCB> fellow I watch on
youtube, sometimes heats his RV with a buddy heater... runs on
propane bottles, doesn't need power
L351[11:59:50] <ve2dmn> JCB: compared to
me, you don't really need heating at all :P
L352[12:00:15] <JCB> ve2dmn how do you
figure?
L353[12:00:27] <ve2dmn> What's the current
weather?
L354[12:00:53] <madmerlyn> -7C here right
now
L355[12:02:01] <JCB> just coming out of -1
or so... suppose to warm up only slightly
L356[12:02:11] <ve2dmn> JCB: we had a cold
advisory. Now it's lifted because it's 'only' -18C with no
wind
L357[12:02:28] <JCB> most of Canada was
under -10c or so the past few days
L358[12:02:43] <JCB> reginia was around
-38c at night
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L360[12:02:54] <ve2dmn> Wind chill or
not?
L361[12:03:23] <madmerlyn> TBF "most
of Canada" is the Northern Territories where like 17 Inuit
live.
L362[12:03:29] <ve2dmn> because if you
account for wind chill, it was -46C in some places.
L363[12:03:46] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: over
70% of the population was under a cold advisory
L364[12:04:09] <madmerlyn> doesn't 70% of
the population live in the same region?
L365[12:04:27] <JCB> officially, no wind
chill.. regina had low of -35c at night around dec 29-30
L366[12:04:49] <ve2dmn> 40% in Ontario,
but the adivory stretched from Alberta all to way to Labrador
L367[12:05:23] <ve2dmn> so it covered
Alberta, Ontario and Quebec, which is around 70% of the
population
L368[12:06:12] <JCB> everyone, save for my
area and far east coast was stuck under -10c or way less the past
few days
L370[12:07:19] <ve2dmn> yes. The
Qubec-Windsor corridor is where 60% of the population lives
L371[12:07:29] <ve2dmn> or close to
L372[12:08:34] <JCB> I'm in that purple
area on the far west coast
L374[12:11:09] <ve2dmn> The joke on reddit
was that, since the advisory didn't cover Toronto at first 'nothing
was happening in Canada'
L375[12:11:42] <JCB> people used to joke..
soon as you crossed into Canada, you'd hit year round snow.. and
that eveyone lived in snow caves
L376[12:12:13] <petti> pfft,
southerners
L377[12:12:27] <petti> greetings from the
62nd ;)
L378[12:13:08] <ve2dmn> petti: how's the
weather?
L379[12:13:26] <JCB> meh.. 49th
here..
L380[12:14:20] <JCB> cold don't bother me
much. Wish we got more snow here...
L381[12:14:24] <petti> ve2dmn: rainy..
:D
L382[12:14:55] <JCB> rest of Canada ends
up under dozen feet of snow, we end up drowning all the time
L383[12:14:57] <petti> no winter to speak
of in 4 years or so
L384[12:15:45] <ve2dmn> I'm below the 49th
and I have the same climate as Jyväskylä
L385[12:16:01] <Althego> winter has not
been very.. wintery in the last 10 years
L386[12:16:14] <petti> yep, can't really
compare the continents
L387[12:16:48] <JCB> not too sure who we'd
compared with
L388[12:17:02] <ve2dmn> 45th to be more
precise
L389[12:17:36] <JCB> mind you... we've had
some summers which were nothing but sun for months.. no rain at
all
L390[12:17:50] <petti> some part of
siberia
L391[12:18:03] <ve2dmn> Average low in
January: 12.C, average high in July: 26.6C
L392[12:18:49] <petti> I was in montreal a
year ago, pretty breezy with -28 and high winds for a couple of
days, otherwise it was quite ok
L393[12:19:05] <ve2dmn> For comparison,
Jyväskylä (at 62°14.5′N) , has lows of 12C and highs of 21.8C
L394[12:19:13] <ve2dmn> so, kind of the
same climate
L395[12:19:33] <petti> I'm on the coast so
it's just wet and miserable
L396[12:20:16] <ve2dmn> petti: we just
don't get the 14hours per month of sunlight in december
L397[12:20:18] <petti> not much difference
between christmas and midsummer except for the amount of light
:)
L398[12:21:13] <JCB> would love to take a
drive up far north..
L399[12:21:39] <ve2dmn> JCB: I dream of
going to see Auroras
L400[12:21:56] <ve2dmn> but it took me
hours to get to the 50th parallel
L401[12:22:01] <petti> my brother has a
house up at the arctic circle
L402[12:22:27] <petti> last time I visited
the ground was frozen a bit on the morning of 1st of july
L403[12:23:13] <ve2dmn> petti: there is a
lack of roads and civilization above the 50th parallel in Most of
Quebec
L404[12:24:23] <petti> I've seen the
tundra in google earth. pretty vast void.
L406[12:25:53] <JCB> ve2dmn I've seen..
well sorta
L407[12:26:11] <JCB> oddly enough, it came
down as far south as my area once
L408[12:26:14] <ve2dmn> there are a few
mines, but the entire thing is just too remote for anythingof
economic value. And no good river
L410[12:27:35] <ve2dmn> right now: no
sunspots
L411[12:29:19] <JCB> sun still in low
cycle... they thinking its in some kind of other bigger cycle
L412[12:29:36] <ve2dmn> petti: The only
issue I ever had with fins was over Santa
L413[12:30:16] <ve2dmn> JCB: our fourrier
analysis of the Sun Cycle frequency is not perfect
L414[12:30:20] <JCB> also.. ouch.. 34km/s
object...
L415[12:30:32] <JCB> wonder if thats our
visitor from outside the system
L418[12:31:25] <ve2dmn> I wanted to go to
Iceland, but everyone seems to go there these days...
L419[12:32:59] <madmerlyn> Iceland is on
my vacation list in the next decade or so
L420[12:33:06] <madmerlyn> want to go see
the Aurora Borealis
L421[12:34:04] ⇦
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reset by peer)
L422[12:34:24] <JCB> oh feh.. uses
applet.. which doesn't work on 64 bit systems.. sigh
L423[12:40:23] <Althego> applet?
L424[12:40:41] <Althego> java applet from
a galaxy far far away?
L425[12:41:04]
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L426[12:49:13] <JCB> website wanted to
have java applet to show the astroid's orbit..
L427[12:49:30] <JCB> but since I'm on a 64
bit system.. it won't work
L428[12:50:04] <Althego> link?
L429[12:50:26] <ve2dmn> I went down the
rabbit hole of comparing energy prices for 1 KWh equivalent in
several regions
L430[12:52:26] <ve2dmn> The reasons I
don't have gas heating is because the infrastructure is just not
there. Very few pipes in the ground because electrification was the
main focus of infrastructure construction
L431[12:53:09] <ve2dmn> It would probably
be around 20% cheaper with gas heating, but the installation cost
would be VERY high
L432[12:53:09] <JCB> I was looking at this
astroid.. mostly for the fact it lists it at 34km/s
L434[12:54:01] <JCB> major city in my area
wanted to have all gas and anything carbon related pulled out, turn
everything into electric. Caused a bit of an uproar..
L435[12:54:25] <JCB> also turns out, an
organization was trying to push for something and was getting a bit
of a kick back from the electric company.. I think
L437[12:55:18] <madmerlyn> weaponized law,
the reason we can't have proper progress in a lot of
utilities.
L438[12:55:44] <Althego> oh wait i
donteven have java installed lol
L439[12:56:45] <JCB> didn't java just get
tossed out the window at some point a while back?
L440[12:56:57] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: I would
rather rant about my lack of proper internet then paying 20CAD more
for heating every 2 months 6month per year
L441[12:57:07] <Althego> not really
L442[12:57:20] <Althego> "7 billion
devices run java" - unchanged for many years :)
L443[12:57:29] <Althego> flash is almost
dead
L444[12:57:39] <Althego> but both are
almost as bad
L445[12:58:02]
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L447[12:59:50] <ve2dmn> For the record, my
electric bill is lower then my Internet price
L448[13:00:01] <ve2dmn> by about
30-40%
L449[13:00:15] <JCB> eh well java doesn't
run 64bit.. oh wel
L450[13:00:24] <User57893> so you have a
very good energy saving home ;)
L451[13:00:41] <ve2dmn> I pay 70CAD per
month on power, and more then 100CAD per month for crappy ADSL
(uncapped)
L452[13:01:42] ⇦
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L454[13:02:04] <ve2dmn> User57893: not
that much. My highest bill was 2788 kWh for 2 months and my lowest
was 943 kwh for 2 month
L455[13:02:24] <ve2dmn> I'm bill every 2
month. why? no idea.
L456[13:02:37] <Althego> java is multi
platform it should run on any system
L457[13:04:27] <JCB> found on Java's
website: We have detected you are using the 64-bit version of
Firefox which will not run the Java plugin.
L458[13:05:04] <JCB> also: The 64-bit
version of Firefox does not support NPAPI plug-ins, including
Java.
L459[13:05:13] <Althego> now that is a
real reason
L460[13:05:25] <Althego> doesnt matter let
it die peacefully
L461[13:06:16] <JCB> seems after firefox
v52, it dropped java support
L462[13:07:03] ⇦
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L464[13:12:57] <ve2dmn> JCB: it should be
dead by now
L465[13:13:05] <ve2dmn> but you found a
zombie website
L466[13:13:21] <Althego> what is dead is
java in browser then
L467[13:13:28] <Althego> java will be here
for a long time
L468[13:13:33] <Althego> not that i want
it
L469[13:14:17] <JCB> if it really came
down to it.. I'd just drag the little laptop machine out.. since
its only 32bit.. use that to check the site.
L470[13:14:31] <JCB> not a big deal.. I
found a rough idea of the orbital path on google images..
L471[13:14:55] <JCB> I'm just kind of
wasting time.. trying to push my sleep back to normal again.
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L476[13:38:53] <Lili-Anna> Hey,
everybody.
L477[13:39:08] <Althego> hi
L478[13:39:10] <Mod9000> Hello,
Althego
L479[13:39:12] <Althego> argh
L480[13:39:17] <Althego> i hate it when it
does that
L481[13:39:31] <Lili-Anna> How are
you?
L482[13:39:40] <User57893> hey. Fine
thx
L483[13:40:13] <Lili-Anna> No problem.
<Smiles softly>
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L487[13:46:35] <Althego> haha
L488[13:49:02] <Lili-Anna> Hey,
Madmerlyn.
L489[13:49:17] <madmerlyn> hi
L490[13:49:19] <Mod9000> Hello,
madmerlyn
L491[13:49:33] <Lili-Anna> How are
you?
L492[13:49:56] <madmerlyn> it's 2018 and I
still have 1 viable ISP option at my residence. Well at least I
have my health.
L493[13:50:08] <Althego> hehe
L494[13:51:22] <madmerlyn> local electric
Co-op needs to hurry their rollout up
L495[13:51:34] <Althego> transform and
rollout! :)
L496[13:51:35] <madmerlyn> I want uncapped
fiber internet from a company I actually have faith in
L497[13:51:52] <Althego> and oddly
fitting, because transformers are regularly used by electric
companies :)
L498[13:52:25] <madmerlyn> yeah local
coop, Ozarks Electric, has started a secondary company with the
goal of providing FTTH to all their customers, even rural
ones
L500[13:53:03] <kmath> YouTube -
Stationeers - Building A Space Station using Both Hands
L501[13:53:05] <madmerlyn> I'm
unfortunately in a neighborhood that doesn't have them for electric
BUT I'm sandwiched in between 2 rural areas that they do service so
their fiber lines are going to come right through my neighborhood
on the way there anyway
L502[13:53:21] <madmerlyn> so I'm in their
"future service" category atm
L503[13:53:29] <madmerlyn> probably 5
years out I'd wager
L504[13:53:59] <madmerlyn> just long
enough for Cox to really screw me with their deregulation victory
last month
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L507[13:56:43] <JCB> petti derp.. just
finished watching that... sorta 'ummm.. like the idea of the game
physics.. not sold on the style they went with'
L508[13:58:10] <petti> yeah, it's not for
me for sure
L509[13:58:53] <JCB> ugh, why's everything
gotta be on steam
L510[13:59:21] <petti> where else should
it be
L511[14:00:27] <JCB> develeoper's
site?
L512[14:01:05] <petti> I prefer shopping
from one place
L513[14:01:33] <petti> as long as it does
not mean too much DRM and such trouble
L514[14:01:45] <JCB> I wouldn't mind
getting space engineers, but its, having to get setup on steam,
having to get setup on paypal, having to register the game through
online means before can even play it...
L516[14:02:34] <petti> paypal is pretty
low hassle and secure since no credit card is required
L517[14:03:10] <petti> I didn't like the
whole steamy thing until I actually started using it, now it seems
to work OK for most things.
L518[14:03:51] <petti> I wasn't too happy
though when I bought skyrim on physical media and... well it
required me to register into steam in order to play my game off the
DVD...
L519[14:04:04] <JCB> I heard a few things
in the past, issues people had with steam.. but who knows now.
Guess maybe I'm old, like actual physical copies. Not just a right
to use code
L520[14:04:05] <petti> but then again that
might have been the last game I bought on a disc.
L521[14:04:54] <JCB> lol.. physical media
not so physical... its just a 'link' to get you started in
downloading the game, then register it
L522[14:05:06] <petti> yeah, that
sucks
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L532[14:25:45] <Althego> haha
L533[14:26:51] <madmerlyn> I think I might
actually do a r/KSP challenge this week
L534[14:27:08] <Althego> what is the
challenge?
L535[14:27:26] <madmerlyn> it's a duna
land and return mission, no more than 10t, each kerbin launch can
only contribute 2t
L536[14:27:36] <madmerlyn> hard mode is no
fuel transferring
L537[14:28:03] <Althego> so you have to
assemble a duna mission in orbit from 2 t payloads?
L538[14:28:06] <madmerlyn> and now I think
I understand why normal mode is easier.. you could lift 2t of
drymass and siphon fuel off the lifter for it?
L539[14:28:08] <Althego> or 2 t
vehicles?
L540[14:28:09] <madmerlyn> yes
L541[14:28:27] <madmerlyn> 2t per launch,
but can be assembled into larger vessel
L542[14:28:52] <madmerlyn> I'm thinking of
doing like a cupcake lander style deal, command chair inside a
service bay
L543[14:29:08] <madmerlyn> I also think
the wording says it has to be assembled in low orbit
L544[14:29:29] <madmerlyn> so I'm thinking
for launch vehicle I use my stock mk3 spaceplane the
"Gallahad" and park my pieces at 245km orbit
L545[14:29:35] <madmerlyn> still
technically low orbit :P
L546[14:30:01] <madmerlyn> assemble and
transfer out from there
L547[14:30:52] <Althego> what does it mean
fuel transfer between parts?
L548[14:31:03] <Althego> by the fuel
transfer menu? or by the normal flow?
L549[14:31:12] <madmerlyn> I've found at
~250km what you lose in Oberth isn't greater than the difference in
cost vs. transferring out from a lower orbit
L550[14:31:21] <madmerlyn> I think they
mean manually moving fuel around
L551[14:31:34] <madmerlyn> like you can't
launch a dry tank and then fill it up
L552[14:33:38] <Althego> this shouldnt be
too hard
L553[14:34:18] <madmerlyn> 10t is a pretty
slim budget though
L554[14:34:21] <Althego> i just dont like
the fact the small payload would mean more wasted fuel
L555[14:34:41] <madmerlyn> only if you
were using an oversized rocket
L556[14:34:56] <madmerlyn> the
"scenario" was that the only rocket available could only
lift a 2t payload, but could be reused
L557[14:35:35] <Althego> i think it would
be better normally to put the whole thing on a single rocket
L558[14:35:48] <madmerlyn> if you had a
rocket capable of that sure
L559[14:36:05] <madmerlyn> I think the
idea is combining orbital assembly with a low tonnage
interplanetary mission
L560[14:36:35] <madmerlyn> the part I'm
pondering is assembly tugs.. do you have to use that as part of
your payload?
L561[14:36:48] <madmerlyn> it's too bad
there isn't a stock canadarm :P
L562[14:37:01] <Althego> why would you
need that?
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L564[14:37:23] <madmerlyn> put your 2t in
orbit, use arm to dock all the pieces together, no need to waste
mass on RCS or vernors
L565[14:37:24] <Althego> you just need to
slam few tanks and engines together
L566[14:37:49] <Althego> like the whole 1
unit of rcs need normally?
L567[14:37:57] <Althego> and can even skip
on that
L568[14:38:01] <madmerlyn> how do you put
just 1 unit of RCS in it?
L569[14:38:11] <Althego> no, i mean that
is what is needed for a docking
L570[14:38:13] <Althego> or even
less
L571[14:38:23] <Althego> and certianly it
is possible to dock without rcs
L572[14:38:59] <madmerlyn> maybe.. since
the payload just has to be 2t, I can design my rocket so the upper
stage is also the docking probe
L573[14:39:25] <madmerlyn> that way no
wasted mass on the final vessel
L574[14:40:03] <User57893> u can use an
extra "vehicle" for docking
L575[14:40:15] <Althego> not needed
L576[14:40:24] <madmerlyn> I think I'm
going to try Apollo style though, have a lightweight lander for
Duna, and a transfer vessel to meet up with in orbit
L577[14:40:36] <Althego> obviously the
best
L578[14:40:58] <oren> space train
L579[14:41:24] <oren> lander with side
engines at front, buncha fuel tanks behind it
L580[14:41:49] <madmerlyn> I posted on
reddit asking if all parts have to return to kerbin
L581[14:42:00] <Althego> but that also
causes some overead, and from duna to kerbin is less than from duna
surface to duna orbit
L582[14:42:01] <madmerlyn> it's very vague
on the requirements for returning
L583[14:42:20] <madmerlyn> if I can ditch
the lander after making orbit again it makes everything a lot
easier
L584[14:42:33] <Althego> it doesnt say
that everything has to return
L585[14:42:48] <Althego> but wouldnt
matter much anyway because of the overhead
L586[14:42:56] <madmerlyn> well the
wording is: Assemble a craft in low orbit around Kerbin in 5
launches, then fly it to Duna and back
L587[14:43:43] <Althego> i would interpret
it (based on the premise): land a kerbal on it on duna and then
make it back with the surface sample
L588[14:44:29] <madmerlyn> so you think
taking the whole vessel to surface and back would be more practical
in 10t gross mass than a lightweight lander would?
L589[14:45:37] <Althego> no
L590[14:45:53] <madmerlyn> I didn't know
IR was allowed in subreddit challenges, that seems like it would
make a lot of things easier
L591[14:45:58] <Althego> i say it is
practical to havea single 10 t launch, but the challenge explicitly
forbids it
L592[14:46:11] <Althego> without actually
limiting anything, because docking ports are light
L593[14:46:53] <Althego> i would leave the
return craft in duna orbit
L594[14:47:24] <Althego> if i found it
hard to make an ssto from duna to kerbin
L595[14:47:34] <Althego> but that is
probably not too hard, did that many times
L596[14:47:42] <Althego> one docking
less
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L598[14:48:14] <Althego> but even then, i
would lose some stages going to duna
L599[14:48:17] <madmerlyn> well really you
don't even have to dock with a dedicated lander, just
rendezvous
L600[14:48:36] <madmerlyn> provided it was
attached to the main craft without a docking port somehow
L601[14:48:37] <Althego> because the goal
is to get the surface ssample
L602[14:48:41] <Althego> in 2t payload
launches
L603[14:49:20] <Althego> you dont even
need a cabin for that
L604[14:49:26] <madmerlyn> Redbiertje
confirmed just the kerbal needs to come back
L605[14:49:30] <Althego> i just usually
avoid cabinless designs
L606[14:49:47] <madmerlyn> and he said
transferring fuel after landing at Duna for balancing purposes is
ok
L607[14:49:52] <Althego> now if you
combine that with a crew report, then you would need a cabin
too
L608[14:50:51] <madmerlyn> and he said
SSTO planes are allowed as launch vehicle
L609[14:51:19] <madmerlyn> so I'll just
send a mk3 plane up to 245km orbit with an assembly probe since
probe won't count against weight requirements
L610[14:53:48] <ConductingCat> :3
L611[14:53:52] <madmerlyn> Althego I think
another reason the 2t requirement is there: it disallows
Nukes
L612[14:53:58] <Althego> obviously
L613[14:55:12] <Althego> can i go to
laythe instead? :)
L614[14:56:11] <madmerlyn> can you build a
mass efficient stock prop in less than 2t? Would the lift from a
stock prop be enough to realize mass efficiency over just using
that mass for additional fuel?
L615[14:56:32] <Althego> a stock prop
gives you infinite delta v
L616[14:56:43] <Althego> the problem is it
d oesnt give you infinite speed
L617[14:57:18] <madmerlyn> right, and
Duna's atmo is small, so can you save enough dv by flying a stock
prop through Duna's atmosphere instead of burning out of it
L618[14:57:26] <Althego> no
L619[14:57:35] <Althego> on eve
however
L620[14:58:04] <Althego> you can fly up
with it to say 10 km where the remainig chemical engines would be
more efficient, thus needing less fuel
L621[14:58:55] <madmerlyn> if you use an
external command chair lander, can you get to the surface of Duna
safely without retrothrust using a parachute you think?
L622[14:59:19] <Althego> it is still
better to pack at least an ant
L623[14:59:36] <Althego> or maybe try one
of the small metal plates as lending leg
L624[14:59:45] <madmerlyn> ha, can you
make orbit with only 2kN of thrust?
L625[14:59:46] <Althego> the half sized i
beam like thingie
L626[15:00:05] <Althego> not sure, but it
would be enough to land you with a parachute
L627[15:00:26] <Althego> the problem is
the atmosphere is not enough for a parachute lannding
normally
L628[15:00:47] <Althego> so even with a
tiny engine and a minimal amount of fuel you are lighter than the
amount of parachutes needed
L629[15:01:04] <madmerlyn> I was thinking
like an oscar with a spark on it and a reaction wheel + command
chair
L630[15:01:15] <Althego> or pack a crush
zone that explodes, or some tolerant parts
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L632[15:01:40] <Althego> anyway for
landing you probably dont need more than 200 m/s
L633[15:01:58] <Althego> if you are
lightenough
L634[15:02:05] <Althego> or have one
parachute
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L640[15:12:31] <oren> lol I use better
atmospheres and FAR so all this talk about duna's atmosphere and
I'm like what atmosphere
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L642[15:12:56] <ve2dmn> FAR got rid of the
Duna atmosphere?
L643[15:13:25] <madmerlyn> FAR is an
allowed mod
L644[15:13:32] <ve2dmn> I know someone
made a stock plane that uses only Xenon and made it into
orbit...
L645[15:13:33] <oren> er, I meant
realistic atmospheres
L646[15:13:43] <ve2dmn> ...BEFORE the ion
drive was boosted
L647[15:14:29] <oren> FAR doesn't get rid
of Duna's atmosphere but it does mean you can't really fly
L648[15:14:56] <oren> even with huge
wings, you can't fly on duna any slower than mach 1.5
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L650[15:15:24] <ve2dmn> What's the speed
of sound in the Martian atmosphere?
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L652[15:15:45] <Supernovy> Evening,
Gentlemen.
L653[15:16:10] <ve2dmn> a quick google
says the speed of sound on Mars is 240m/s
L654[15:16:46] <oren> realistic
atmospheres does help a little, by making duna's atmosphere deeper
(up to 70 km)
L655[15:17:03] <ve2dmn> so Mach 1 on mars
would be 864km/h
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L657[15:18:27] <oren> relistic atmospheres
makes Eve flybys even more broken, because Eve's atmosphere only
goes up to 55 km because of the high lapse rate caused by eve's
high gravity
L658[15:19:02] <ve2dmn> I wonder if kOS
knows this
L659[15:20:15] <oren> flying by Eve at 90
km is broken enough but you can basically reverse your trajectory
relative to Eve with a 55 km flyby
L660[15:24:19] <ve2dmn> dammit ksp
crashed
L661[15:24:50] <madmerlyn> bummer
L662[15:25:05] <madmerlyn> I haven't had
any KSP crashes since I stopped using Steam overlay (on
Linux)
L663[15:25:40] <ve2dmn> it always crashes
on load
L664[15:26:58] <madmerlyn> ve2dmn you
gonna do this week's reddit challenge?
L665[15:27:04] <madmerlyn> I think it's
going to be my project tonight
L666[15:27:40] <ve2dmn> what's the
challenge?
L667[15:28:37] <madmerlyn> Duna landing
and back, maximum weight 10, can only launch 2t at a time, hard
mode no fuel transfers
L668[15:29:01] <madmerlyn> so basically
you can assemble a vessel up to 10t in low orbit, with only 2 tons
per launch
L669[15:29:12] <ve2dmn> that's beyond my
habilities, but I could try
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L671[15:29:34] <madmerlyn> well the
payload only has to be 2t per launch, launch vehicle can be as big
as you need
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L673[15:29:54] <madmerlyn> I'm going to
send my pieces up in a spaceplane to 245km orbit and use a tug on
the plane to assemble the pieces
L674[15:31:19] <madmerlyn> I'm thinking a
cupcake-style lander will be light and draggy enough to land and
return from Duna cheaply enough
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L678[15:39:05] <ve2dmn> I wish I could run
ksp in borderless window mode
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L681[15:45:06] <madmerlyn> play on linux
and you can just put it in its own workspace :P
L682[15:45:39] <ve2dmn> I could, that's
true
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L685[15:48:07] <ve2dmn> wow... I have
100m/s of dv to make my 350km orbit into a 375km one for
rendez-vous with my space hotel
L686[15:48:20] <ve2dmn> ...out of an
initial value of 5540
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L689[15:57:03] <madmerlyn> one thing I
love about doing Hohmann transfers in Kerbin orbit, super easy to
set up
L690[15:57:18] <madmerlyn> just push your
AP out and move the node around the orbit until you get a super
close encounter
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L693[15:58:39] <ve2dmn> I tried to go
directly to 350km from ground
L694[16:00:29] <madmerlyn> direct
rendezvous are hard to do manually, that's why I don't do them
:P
L695[16:01:00] <madmerlyn> even when I
have rescue contracts that are in the 70-80km range, I usually just
push my rescue craft into a higher orbit to catch them
L696[16:01:03] <ve2dmn> the timing was
real bad. They are at the opposite sides of kerbin.
L697[16:01:19] <ve2dmn> I might revert and
do it again at 80km
L698[16:01:23] <madmerlyn> in that case
you almost certainly should have parked in a lower orbit and did a
Hohmann
L699[16:01:54] <ve2dmn> I'm trying to see
what used less dV. Then I'll try doing the math :D
L700[16:02:19] <madmerlyn> I know for a
fact going from like 175km to 350km with Hohmann around Kerbin with
similar inclination will put you around 80m/s relative at
encounter
L701[16:03:03] <ve2dmn> I just want a
'close enough encouter' that I can then wait out with KAC
L702[16:03:33] <madmerlyn> park in 175km
orbit and Hohmann out and you can make encounter in less than 2
orbits every time
L703[16:03:47] <madmerlyn> which comes out
to like what.. 1 in game hour?
L704[16:04:18] <madmerlyn> less time than
timewarping for the optimal launch window I'd wager
L705[16:04:39] <madmerlyn> the dv savings
for direct ascent probably isn't significant either
L706[16:04:54] <madmerlyn> maybe 100m/s or
so that you spent on circularization at lower orbit
L707[16:06:53] <ve2dmn> say you have a
100kmx175km orbit. which would be more efficient: several burns at
100km to raise to 350km or a single burn at 175km and then
circularise at 350km.
L708[16:07:02] <ve2dmn> I'm thinking the
low orbit is better
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L710[16:07:11] <ve2dmn> because
Hoffman
L711[16:07:38] <madmerlyn> the higher
eccentricity can increase your relative velocity on the final
encounter though, increasing the amount of dv you have to spend
there
L712[16:08:16] <madmerlyn> and doing it
that way would require you wait until your phase angle is right so
you can do your burn at peri to benefit from oberth
L713[16:08:37] <ve2dmn> right
L714[16:09:09] <madmerlyn> a proper
circular to circular Hohmann maneuver you don't have to wait for
phase angles, you just burn at the appropriate spot in your own
orbit
L715[16:09:47] <ve2dmn> but then my
encouter would be at high speed and I don't think I have enough
thrust
L716[16:09:52] <madmerlyn> and even still,
doing the eccentric one will increase circularization cost on the
final orbit
L717[16:09:59] <madmerlyn> due to higher
relative velocity coming in
L718[16:10:28] <ve2dmn> this is also a
test of my kOS scripts... so this is not my first revert :D
L719[16:10:37] <ve2dmn> because 'check yo
staging'
L720[16:11:18] <madmerlyn> I'd love to see
math etc., oberth is a 2 way street AFAIK, you're saving by pushing
apo out at peri, but then you have to circularize at apo which is
much more highly eccentric than it would've been
L721[16:11:47] <madmerlyn> I imagine the
difference in dv costs is going to be very similar to just
circularizing at 175km, but I've been wrong many times before
L722[16:12:50] <ve2dmn> which is why I was
trying to go to 350km from ground directly. The target is slightly
above 350, so I would have an encouter eventually
L723[16:14:10] <ve2dmn> The point was to
get out of the atmosphere as soon as possible to limit air
resistance, then burn at AP (350)
L724[16:15:07] <madmerlyn> you should see
what costs are for KSC>175km then Hohmann are vs. KSC>350
rendezvous
L725[16:15:26] <madmerlyn> I personally
default to Hohmann just because it's so much easier heh
L726[16:16:05] <ve2dmn> yeah. But in this
case, it's mostly automated, so I just want to see what I could
do
L727[16:17:12] <madmerlyn> on the case of
kOS scripts, I think I'm going to put some logic in mine to better
tune the target orbit
L728[16:18:09] <madmerlyn> like maybe have
an if statement during the main loop during "coasting
stage" that if the current AP drops below the orbitHeight
parameter to burn 10% at prograde until orbitHeight is exceeded
again
L729[16:20:31] <madmerlyn> because drag
losses are dropping my orbits by as much as 5km on some
launches
L730[16:20:57] <madmerlyn> what I've been
doing is just manually specifying like 178km instead of 175
L731[16:21:06] <madmerlyn> but I'd like it
to be a bit more precise on the final orbit
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L739[16:57:13] <ve2dmn> going for a
transfer orbit left me with 1000m/s more dV
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L742[17:20:48] <oren> If the rover can't
land on Moho even with the extended-range ion upper stage, I think
I'll have to do a manned mission with a much much larger
craft
L743[17:22:50] <oren> last attempt had
10km/s, this one has 11 km/s and will flyby Eve to save some
L744[17:23:19] <ve2dmn> pff. just make it
17km/s. Problem solved
L745[17:23:56] <oren> ve2dmn: Last time I
went to Moho it was a manned mission using ion clusters, and had
over 50 km/s
L746[17:28:19] <oren> of course that was
using the super-OP nuclear reactors
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L749[17:33:06] <oren> this time for my
endgame ultracruisers I can use open-cycle gas core nuclear
rockets
L750[17:38:04] <ve2dmn> arrgh... I
assembled a pair of docking ports upside down...
L751[17:38:10] <ve2dmn> I have to do
everything AGAIN
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L761[18:19:40] <madmerlyn> oh hi
there
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L763[18:23:19] <JCB> blep
L764[18:26:51] <madmerlyn> blep, it's like
pleb but less Roman
L765[18:27:03] <JCB> eh...
L766[18:28:32] *
JCB face-palms while trying to find a pic...
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L769[18:34:43] <JCB> ugh good thing I
hadn't started recording... -dragged off to help room mate with
something, sigh...
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L771[18:36:19] <madmerlyn> external
command seat, does navball prograde point the same direction kerbal
is facing?
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L776[18:54:37] <whales> that pic is some
goooood blep action
L777[18:56:17] <ve2dmn> wow, Rover didn't
lie when he said that compressin the Contruction docking ports
could wake the Kraken
L778[18:59:11] <ve2dmn> KSP, where the
speed of light can be done by unplanned explosions
L779[19:07:19] <darsie> Are there also
slow or thorough saves? All I ever see are quick saves.
L780[19:09:08] <ve2dmn> MOD-F5
L781[19:09:19] <ve2dmn> you can rename
your saves and have more then 1
L782[19:09:51] <ve2dmn> also, I believe
KAC can be configured to save before each scene load
L783[19:10:02] <madmerlyn> so dv map says
duna is 1450dv to make orbit, that's not my experience so far
:P
L784[19:13:27] <madmerlyn> I'm not even
making it with 1900dv, hrm
L785[19:15:59] <madmerlyn> taking huge
drag losses
L786[19:16:38] <ve2dmn> same map says 3400
m/s for orbit around Kerbin
L787[19:16:52] <madmerlyn> I can make
kerbin orbit in 3400 dv though
L788[19:16:59] <ve2dmn> I can't
L789[19:17:30] <ve2dmn> usually takes me
more because of the lower ground ISP
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L792[19:19:01] <madmerlyn> hrm
L793[19:19:09] <madmerlyn> now I need to
figure out what I'm doing wrong or change lander design
L794[19:20:33] <madmerlyn> according to
KER I shouldn't be losing hardly any engine efficiency from duna's
atmosphere
L795[19:21:09] <madmerlyn> 3.3m/s is and
0.209kN of thrust is all I lose at sea level on Duna
L796[19:21:15] <madmerlyn> and I landed at
an altitude of 3km
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L798[19:23:34] <ve2dmn> *sigh*
L799[19:23:58] <ve2dmn> I used Contruction
ports to make sure things were aligned to 90 degree angles...
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L802[19:24:38] <ve2dmn> except for one
port... which I already compressed...
L803[19:26:07] <madmerlyn> so I think it's
drag losses, though I'm not sure why I'm getting such huge
drag
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L805[19:44:18] <JCB> madmerlyn whats
wrong?
L806[19:44:54] <madmerlyn> trying to make
orbit on this Duna lander I made and even with 1930dv it's not
getting anywhere close to orbit
L807[19:44:58] <bees> madmerlyn: lander is
small, right?
L808[19:45:03] <madmerlyn> yes
L809[19:45:05] <bees> madmerlyn: and
lander has horrible aerodynamics, right?
L810[19:45:07] <bees> this is your
answer
L811[19:45:20] <bees> you are trying to
orbit a feather, relatively speaking
L812[19:45:24] <JCB> you following your
vector or you trying to force it over?
L813[19:45:38] <madmerlyn> I've tried a
ton of different ascent vectors heh
L814[19:45:50] <JCB> got a pic?
L815[19:45:51] <bees> you would be
surprised how much normal little lander parts add drag
L816[19:46:01] <bees> especially with
small crafts
L817[19:46:37] <bees> 1450dv assumes a
streamlined rocket, not a something with 100x things attached to
it
L818[19:46:54] <JCB> I was trying to land
on the mun a few times with 700dv.. I only needed 580 exactly.. I
still was running out of fuel. granted its airless but what the
problem was my correction vectoring was eating up dv
L819[19:47:29] <JCB> depends on how you
mounted those things to your craft.. part clipping does cut back a
little I think
L820[19:47:42] <JCB> on the flip side,
parts clipping has been known to cause krakkens
L821[19:48:02] <bees> part clipping has
been known to cause low fps
L822[19:48:18] <bees> this is the main
reason i unclip to have a small airgap
L823[19:48:31] <JCB> for me.. fps drop
usually caused by parts count rather than clipping
L824[19:48:38] <bees> this way it stops
constantly calculating something and fps jumps to the sky
L825[19:48:54] <bees> most radially
attached boosters are affected
L826[19:49:17] <bees> this is a very easy
way to drastically increase your launch fps - airgap all radial
boosters
L827[19:49:28] <JCB> it also depends on
how good a system you've got.. whats in the background
L828[19:49:30] <bees> and preferably all
radial things on your craft
L829[19:49:49] <JCB> i usually don't do
big craft anyways
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L831[19:55:33] <madmerlyn> alright made a
much larger lander that still fits in the challenge parameters that
should be aerodynamic
L832[20:03:07] <madmerlyn> ok that worked
a lot better
L834[20:07:52] <madmerlyn> course with it
being more aerodynamic I had to use more engine to not crash on
landing :P
L835[20:10:07] <JCB> ya well..
tradeoffs
L836[20:10:21] <JCB> maybe consider
airbrakes?
L837[20:10:42] <ve2dmn> I don't think
that's allowed
L838[20:11:00] <JCB> and what exactly is
the challenge parameters?
L840[20:11:46] <madmerlyn> airbrakes are
allowed, but possibly heavy
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L842[20:13:06] <ve2dmn> Well... the new
Space Hotel is officially Open
L843[20:13:10] <ve2dmn> it needs a
name
L844[20:13:23] <JCB> I don't see anything
saying airbrakes aren't allowed... its a stoke part
L845[20:13:25] <JCB> er stock
L846[20:13:45] <madmerlyn> but each 1 is
50kg :/
L847[20:13:57] <madmerlyn> I'm already
using a parachute to cut down the velocity
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L849[20:14:14] <madmerlyn> also airbrakes
are HUGE compared to my lander heh
L850[20:14:42] <Lili-Anna> Hello, again!
Again, hello.
L851[20:15:21] <JCB> well there are big
airbrakes, then there are the little control surfaces which can be
made to act as airbrakes if done right
L852[20:15:49] <JCB> I'll sometimes use
sets on my aircraft to help slow it down.. even act like flaps,
though I think KSP gets weird on them sometimes
L853[20:19:24] <ve2dmn> Should I go with
'Orbits Inn' or 'Super 8000'
L854[20:20:38] <ve2dmn> Or maybe even
'Rent-a-Space'
L855[20:20:47] <JCB> Orb-i-shack
L856[20:21:17] <JCB> .... space
closet..?
L857[20:21:42] <JCB> I have a hard enough
time trying to come up with a name for my LKO or munar orbit
stations
L858[20:22:34] <ve2dmn> Orbit Estate Space
& Spa
L859[20:23:01] <ve2dmn> Orbitside
Resort
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L861[20:25:28] <JCB> keep wanting to do an
orbiting mun shack..
L862[20:26:39] <ve2dmn> JCB: I have
Tourism+. A Kerbin Space hotel is one of the main contract
L863[20:27:09] <ve2dmn> I also have to a a
100kerbal-with-4-asteroid-space-casino
L864[20:27:50] <ve2dmn> 'Where your money
has all the weigh'
L865[20:28:54] <JCB> not really a hotel..
I had a bunch of tourists wanna go around the mun in one go..
L866[20:29:09] <JCB> >_> oh.. that
ryhmed
L867[20:30:29] <ve2dmn> anyway. While the
hotel is 'opened' it's not 100% operational: it lacks any supplies
for now
L868[20:31:41] <ve2dmn> And a new contract
was generated: bring 37 tourist to our Space hotel: Exosphere
Inn
L869[20:31:43] <JCB> kerbals vs classic
space lego.. mini figures... or something
L870[20:32:25] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: I'll
need a good spaceplane to carry 37 kerbal to 350km... any
suggestions?
L871[20:32:42] <madmerlyn> stock or are
OPT wings + Mk4 ok? ;)
L872[20:32:56] <ve2dmn> .. stock
L873[20:33:58] <ve2dmn> OPT should really
be named OP-Tech
L875[20:34:32] <ve2dmn> Anyway, I barely
have Mk2 plane parts unlocked. I need MORE SCIENCE
L876[20:34:33] <madmerlyn> and I don't use
the OPT engines, just the wings :P
L877[20:34:45] <madmerlyn> oh well 37
kerbals on mk2 is no small feat
L878[20:35:39] <ve2dmn> I'll have to do
several planes
L879[20:36:20] <madmerlyn> I swear KER
doesn't understand multipart vessels at all sometime
L880[20:37:02] <madmerlyn> add a tank to
this craft, of which 1.125/1.6 tons of it is REACTION MASS, KER
estimates my dv drops by 1400
L881[20:40:20] ⇦
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L882[20:43:57] <madmerlyn> alright I think
I have mission planned, but I'll deal with it tomorrow
L883[20:45:13] <madmerlyn> that test does
have me wondering if my rover bay on the bottom of my Lockheed
style lander is going to cause drag losses on Duna.. although it
has a LOT more mass than the lander I was just using
L884[20:45:21] <ve2dmn> interestingly, my
probe heading for Jool is relaying its' signal through the probe
heading for Eeloo
L885[20:50:57] ⇦
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L887[20:59:38] ***
Lili-Anna is now known as ElizabethMoore
L888[21:06:49] ⇦
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L890[21:07:26] <ElizabethMoore>
Hello...
L891[21:07:28] <Mod9000> Hello,
ElizabethMoore
L892[21:08:01] <ElizabethMoore> Hi.
<Smiles weakly> How are you?
L893[21:11:04] <ElizabethMoore> Everyone
has become so quiet.
L894[21:13:33] ⇦
Quits: lqid (lqid!~lqid@104.238.51.52) (Quit: My MacBook has gone
to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
L895[21:14:44] <JCB> hello..
L896[21:14:45] <JCB> kinda here
L897[21:14:46] <Mod9000> Hello, JCB
L898[21:15:06] <JCB> rwar..?
L899[21:15:39] <ElizabethMoore> Hi... You
wouldn't know of a welcoming channel, would you?..
L900[21:16:19] ⇦
Quits: Profound
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L901[21:16:48] <ElizabethMoore> I'm in
need of a conversation, and I can't find one anywhere.
L902[21:17:30] <JCB> suppose I should
eventually stick in a proper irc client.. I've just been using the
web based one off the squad/ksp site. actually, I never closed the
tab since finding it.
L903[21:17:48] <JCB> otherwise.. it
probably be a lot easier to go digging through the channels
L904[21:17:49] <madmerlyn> Hexchat
L905[21:18:22] <ElizabethMoore> Thanks,
Madmerlyn. ^^
L906[21:18:32] <madmerlyn> that's an IRC
client, not a channel
L907[21:18:57] <JCB> I might just grab a
copy of mIRC off my other machine or something.. eventually
L908[21:19:05] <ElizabethMoore> Ah, okay.
<Nods, smiling a little>
L909[21:19:19] <madmerlyn> :/
L910[21:19:55] <ElizabethMoore> I am very
new to this, apparently. (I've only heard of three places now.
Freenode, Hexchat, and....forgotten name.)
L911[21:20:45] <madmerlyn> freenode is an
IRC network, this is Esper
L912[21:20:53] <madmerlyn> Hexchat is
software to connect to IRC with
L913[21:21:41] <madmerlyn> this channel
specifically is mostly about Kerbal Space Program as well as RL
Space Exploration in general
L914[21:22:23] <madmerlyn> on that note..
SpaceX is launching Zuma payload on Friday
L915[21:22:23] <JCB> as well as the odd
occasional silliness on just about any random thing it seems
L916[21:22:28] <ElizabethMoore> Alright.
(I'm completely clueless in IRC subjects, as well as any
video/online games.)
L917[21:22:44] <JCB> madmerlyn correction.
The /mysterious/ Zuma payload :P
L918[21:23:16] <madmerlyn> what got you
looking for chatrooms? Just bored?
L919[21:23:42] <JCB> apparently us
Canadians is gearing towards getting our own launch facility over
on the east coast, to be finished sometime by 2020
L920[21:23:46] <ElizabethMoore> A friend
invited me.
L921[21:24:19] ⇦
Quits: aradapilot (aradapilot!~aradapilo@2001:4998:ef99:7806::10b8)
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⇨ Joins: aradapilot
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L923[21:24:36] <ElizabethMoore> I haven't
seen the person in a while, so I branched off from what little I
knew.
L924[21:25:26] <ElizabethMoore> I'm here
for the people. Conversation,
L925[21:25:36] <ElizabethMoore> *people
and conversation.
L926[21:25:49] <JCB> eh well.. can't have
one without the other...
L927[21:25:53] <JCB> unless you like
talk'n to yourslef
L928[21:27:08] <ElizabethMoore> I don't
particularly enjoy it, but it can be relaxing.
L929[21:27:50] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: do we
have more info on Zuma?
L930[21:28:07] <madmerlyn> if you ask Alex
Jones it's a mind control satellite I'm sure
L931[21:28:51] <madmerlyn> who knows
though, secret US Government launches are always hard to make sense
of as a civilian
L932[21:29:01] <ElizabethMoore> I meant
conversation; something more than polite greetings and small
topics.
L933[21:29:28] <JCB> just that its for
NRO...
L934[21:29:37] <JCB> it'll be low orbit..
they guessing spy sat
L935[21:29:40] <madmerlyn> I really still
don't understand what you're looking for, we have conversations
here.. about space.
L936[21:30:13] <ElizabethMoore>
Alright....thanks.
L937[21:30:45] <ve2dmn> sigh
L938[21:31:44] <madmerlyn> smells a lot
like catfish
L939[21:31:44] <ve2dmn> JCB: we should
annex the Turks and Caicos Islands and put the launch site
there
L940[21:32:11] <JCB> meh.. I"m quite
happy for having a site on our own lands
L941[21:32:23] <JCB> churchill used to
launch sounding rockets..
L942[21:32:39] <JCB> I've actually been up
there for a little over a week some years ago.. mostly for the
polar bears though
L943[21:33:02] <madmerlyn> I live in the
US, we have multiple launch sites :shrug:
L944[21:33:18] <JCB> faclity had something
like 1mill btu heating.. but also 1/2mill btu for cooling of the
60-70's era computer gear
L945[21:33:38] <madmerlyn> I want to get
to the cape when they do the first crewed Mars launch
L946[21:33:43] <madmerlyn> bucket list
item
L947[21:34:44] <ve2dmn> madmerlyn: hard to
launch north of the 49th
L948[21:34:57] <ve2dmn> not impossible,
just a bit harder
L949[21:35:20] <madmerlyn> the cape is
only 28 degree latitude?
L950[21:35:28] <madmerlyn> I'm talking
about Canaveral
L951[21:35:51] <ve2dmn> something like
that
L952[21:36:10] <JCB> ... not hard
L953[21:36:20] <ve2dmn> I know France uses
their Oversea territories for the launches, for the same
reason
L954[21:36:55] <madmerlyn> I'm fairly
confident the next crewed launch beyond LEO is going to launch from
Canaveral
L955[21:36:56] <JCB> mind you.. denmark
launches with a sub and floating platform on the seas between
sealand and bornhlm
L956[21:37:36] <madmerlyn> unless China
just blows everyone's mind by going Lunar out of nowhere
L957[21:37:40] ⇦
Quits: fhmiv (fhmiv!~fhmiv@c-73-158-172-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
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L958[21:37:51] <JCB> there's been talk
about us canadians building our own launch system... problem is..
politics. ugh >.<
L959[21:38:23] <madmerlyn> I'd think it'd
be more likely you'd launch from Canaveral too though wouldn't
it?
L960[21:39:00] <ve2dmn> easier to use
existing facilities
L961[21:39:12] <madmerlyn> not to mention
it's a lot closer to the equator
L962[21:39:29] <madmerlyn> you all could
do polar launches just fine up there though
L963[21:39:42] <madmerlyn> in the summer
time
L964[21:39:43] <JCB> don't know... all I
know is there's already been work started on an east coast Canadian
launch port
L965[21:39:59] <JCB> maybe its a push from
being reliant..
L966[21:40:31] <ve2dmn> JCB: There's lot
of empty space, that's for sure. Any issues would be in low
population area
L967[21:41:07] <JCB> could hire the
pegasus launch system
L968[21:41:37] <JCB> though, payload is a
tad limited.. we already had a couple of our own homegrown sats
launched on it
L969[21:42:18] ⇦
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(Quit: Leaving)
L970[21:43:55] <madmerlyn> anyway, I'm
calling it a night, had enough "polite greetings and small
topics" for one night, lol
L971[21:45:02] <JCB> k.. lates
L972[21:46:10] <ve2dmn> bye
L973[21:46:14] ⇦
Quits: madmerlyn
(madmerlyn!~madmerlyn@ip72-204-59-67.fv.ks.cox.net) (Quit:
Leaving)
L974[21:47:24] <ve2dmn> I'm still trying
to remember the name of that company that want to do launches from
NZ
L975[21:48:19] <Blaank> Forgot to bookmark
Scott after installing new browser so I've missed out on a month of
videos.
L976[21:50:33] <JCB> bluh... doing this
direct ascent to meet up with this in orbit part proving more
difficult...
L977[21:53:48] <Blaank> I''ve never
managed a direct ascent to rendezvous.
L978[21:56:03] <JCB> I got it a few
times...
L979[21:56:42] <JCB> don't remember if it
was via spaceplane or rocket... its a little tricky because you
have to account for the in orbit's speed, how fast your launch
goes, and having the right amount of lead time
L980[22:04:41] <UmbralRaptor> ve2dmn:
rocket lab?
L981[22:08:24] <Blaank> Would it make
sense to use a sub-optimal ion thruster for ISS stationkeeping? For
example using argon because it's cheaper.
L982[22:09:34] <JCB> ... so not the
Vasmir?
L983[22:09:45] <Blaank> I don't know if
that's deployed yet.
L984[22:09:47] <JCB> er... Vasimr..
L985[22:09:57] <Blaank> I think it's still
in testing.
L986[22:10:25] <JCB> they were talking
about eventually using it, along with some lithium-ion battery
tech
L987[22:10:34] <Blaank> The VF-200
flight-rated thruster consists of two 100 kW VASIMR units with
opposite magnetic dipoles so that no net torque is applied to the
space station when the thruster magnets are working. The VF-200-1
is the first flight unit and was slated to be tested in space
attached to the ISS.
L988[22:11:04] <JCB> ya... kinda crazy
when you gotta counter magnetic torque..
L989[22:11:43] <ve2dmn> UmbralRaptor: not
sure
L990[22:12:33] <Blaank> As far as I can
tell it's not in use yet.
L991[22:12:41] <Blaank> I mean production
use
L992[22:15:37] <Blaank> Powerful
superconducting electromagnets, necessary to contain hot plasma,
generate tesla-range magnetic fields[9] that can cause problems
with other onboard devices and produce unwanted torque by
interaction with the magnetosphere.
L993[22:16:09] <JCB> I know microsats use
magnetic coils to help with turning in space
L994[22:16:30] <Blaank> Only works on
planets with magentic fields.
L995[22:17:02] <Blaank> Still neat
L996[22:17:17] <Blaank> That limits it to
earth and jupiter I think?
L997[22:19:02] <JCB> think some systems
use gravity gradient to help orient stuff... like the LDEF back in
the old days
L998[22:19:05] <bees> theoretically, you
can create planetary magnetic fields if you want
L999[22:19:06] <bees> so...
L1000[22:19:09] <Blaank> it was expected
that the VX-200 engine would have a system efficiency of 60–65% and
thrust level of 5 N. Optimal specific impulse appeared to be around
5,000s using low cost argon propellant.
L1001[22:20:41] <Blaank> No idea if they
actually mounted the thing to the ISS. Everything is from 2008 and
nothing about it actually being there.
L1002[22:20:47] <JCB> dang it wiki.. now
I'm looking up things spacey
L1003[22:21:32] <Blaank> and dead links
to the citation for the vasimiriss thing
L1004[22:21:47] <Blaank> how do you flag
a dead citation?
L1005[22:23:07] <JCB> 2015.. wiki saying
the ISS may not be ideal testing platform for the VASIMR..
L1006[22:23:35]
⇦ Quits: Supernovy
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L1007[22:23:40]
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L1008[22:24:54] <JCB> also states that
ISS only produces 200kw extra power.. may have to trickle charge a
battery pack and run the engine for no more than 15 minutes at a
time... mind you.. that might be old info too
L1009[22:25:40] <Blaank> It's a 200kw
unit they were planning on using.
L1010[22:25:41] <ve2dmn> what's the
stated max life for the ISS?
L1011[22:27:17] <JCB> wiki says it
shoulda been dead back in 2016
L1012[22:27:33] <Rokker> ve2dmn: there
isn't necessarily one
L1013[22:27:57] <JCB> so far.. things are
good to go at least till 2020
L1014[22:28:06] <Rokker> JCB: 2024
L1015[22:28:16] <Blaank> They overbuild
the crap out of stuff.
L1016[22:28:49] <ve2dmn> Blaank: because
replacements and repair price are out of this world
L1017[22:29:08] <Blaank> Well the cost to
built this overbuilt stuff is equally high.
L1018[22:30:15] <JCB> some of the parts,
can be referbished in space..
L1019[22:30:43] <JCB> there was talk
about returning stuff back ot Earth but currently with shuttle out
of commission, only option is to just keep it in orbit
L1020[22:31:49] <JCB> could force a
deorbit but with russia's help, its a lot of hardware to come down.
There is also the international co-operation side of things. With
skylab it was just USA only.. so only they had to worry about what
happens
L1021[22:31:51] <Blaank> Yeah, the
shuttle did have that going for it. It could return some
stuff.
L1022[22:32:42] <JCB> there's a lot of
talk about what to do, some ideas floating around was pulling off
some of the parts, rebuilding it into another station. disposing of
some of the older parts
L1023[22:32:47] <ve2dmn> I can only
imagine the headache to replace just one of the O-Rings in the
handles to open and close the shutters on the Cupola
L1024[22:33:16] <JCB> ve2dmn seal off the
cupola, pull it off, make the repair..
L1025[22:33:44] <JCB> chances are..
there's a couple of o-rings in place as backups. video I saw, says
they only dealing with 7lbs pressure
L1026[22:34:46] <ve2dmn> You would
probably have to close off the whole tranquility module... which
means no toilet for the enterity of the repairs
L1027[22:35:07] <Blaank> They only have
one toilet?
L1028[22:35:58] <JCB> no .. two
L1029[22:36:11] <JCB> and no.. the cupola
can be removed with affecting the whole moduel
L1030[22:36:30] <JCB> a panel gets placed
in the port its connected to, like all the other ports
L1031[22:37:13] <JCB> when they show you
around, each of the 'door ways' you can see tracks on either side.
There are panels that slide down, closes sections off.
L1032[22:40:25] <ve2dmn> last time I was
to KSC, the ISS wasn't a thing :/
L1033[22:43:18] <ConductingCat> :3
L1034[22:43:53] <JCB> you thought elon
musk had big plans...
L1035[22:43:56] <JCB> article from
2015...
L1037[22:44:14] <Blaank> hahahahahahhah
what the heck is that?
L1038[22:44:40] <JCB> I was looking up
pics for the isolation door panels on the ISS, a pic of this thing
shows up in google image search
L1039[22:45:10] <ConductingCat> The ISS
has to nucleate Valerian's City of a Thousand Planets.
L1040[22:45:17] <JCB> I don't knwo if its
a joke... someone toking one too many, or ...
L1041[22:45:23] <Blaank> The only reason
you want gravity is if you plan to return to earth.
L1042[22:45:37] <Blaank> People can't
seem to grasp that spacers can exist.
L1043[22:46:00] <ConductingCat> There are
other reasons.
L1044[22:46:04] <JCB> think the concern
is.. want to return people, but not have the ill effects
L1045[22:46:13] <Blaank> Once you get
over the initial bone loss you don't get kidney stones.
L1046[22:46:45] <JCB> been some talk
about if we do interplanetary, or evne interstellar, there is a
chance a new version of humans end up getting created in the
proccess
L1047[22:46:53] <JCB> or.. would they
still be humans?
L1048[22:46:56] <Blaank> It won't be a
new species.
L1049[22:47:00] <ConductingCat> Trees in
greenhouses will die if you don't shake them to simulate
wind.
L1050[22:47:27] <Blaank> So they require
flexing to function?
L1051[22:48:08] <JCB> or that because of
stale air.. no fans
L1052[22:48:10] <Blaank> Humans don't
require a pulse as far as we can tell from two humans who at least
at one point were alive for years without one due to a mechinical
impeller blood pump and failed hearts.
L1053[22:49:12] <ConductingCat> Resisting
gravity is a useful form of exercise for the whole body.
L1054[22:49:48] <Blaank> Again, we can
have super weak hearts, pencil thin bones, nearly no muscle and be
alive and fine.
L1055[22:50:04] <JCB> so.. valley girl
syndrom?
L1056[22:50:25] <Blaank> As long as you
don't plan on returning to earth, none of that stuff is
needed.
L1057[22:50:26] <JCB> or.. wait.. am I
thinking something else..?
L1058[22:50:44] <Blaank> You will be
forced to live out the rest of your life in microgravity.
L1059[22:51:01] <ConductingCat> Broken
bones are a problem in space too.
L1060[22:51:14] <JCB> ... spaces from the
Expance...
L1061[22:51:17] <JCB> er.. spacers
L1062[22:51:21] <Blaank> Belters
L1063[22:51:34] <Blaank> They don't
function in microgravity, they function at 1/4 g or so.
L1064[22:51:44] <JCB> difference..
belters live in astroids.. spacers just in space.. or orbit of
planets
L1065[22:51:45] <Blaank> But it's like
that more or less. They can't live on earth.
L1066[22:52:21] <JCB> funny how the
expance and my Jovian Chronicals RPG books play along similar
lines
L1067[22:52:34] <Blaank> People call
becoming a spacer a problem but it's not in itself a problem.
L1068[22:52:46] <Blaank> The problem is
being a spacer and wanting to return to Earth.
L1069[22:52:52] <JCB> there was also one
for those that were from the moon..
L1070[22:53:10] <ve2dmn> Blaank: there a
lot of unkown beside just the issue of microgravity in low earth
orbit
L1071[22:53:14] <Blaank> Everyone thinks
humans have to live on Earth. A lot of people have that stuck in
their head and can't get over it.
L1073[22:54:26] <ve2dmn> I'm curious how
the first babies born and raised outside earth will be
like...
L1074[22:54:29] <ConductingCat> Someone
conditioned under gravity is more fit for space than someone who is
not.
L1075[22:54:43] <ve2dmn> they probably
won't have the same issues we do
L1077[22:55:10] <ConductingCat> Not good
for you anywhere.
L1078[22:56:41] <ConductingCat> Living in
space is basically an extreme version of living as a couch
potato.
L1079[22:56:43] <JCB> you could
technically build a rotating ring on the moon.. (damn it I keep
wanting to type mun, curse you ksp) ring would maintain a close to
1g pull..
L1080[22:57:23] <ve2dmn> Blaank: you
would still have to find better radiation shield, but the rest you
can probably live with, yes
L1081[22:57:27] <Blaank> Again it may be
perfectly fine having 0.1 g with less cost/mass/complication and
still get nearly all the benefits.
L1082[22:57:47] <Blaank> we could get 90%
of the benifits of 1 g at 0.1 g
L1083[22:58:02] <Blaank> I don't know and
it should be tested because 0.1 is a hell of a lot easier to
generate than 1.
L1084[22:58:26] <JCB> or easier to
manage.. not getting tossed into a tumble drier
L1085[22:58:36] <ve2dmn> People simulated
spine problems in space by spending weeks on a bed
L1086[22:58:43] <Blaank> Things go down.
hot air goes up.
L1087[22:58:54] <JCB> I'd just like to
see something made... tested.. last time was back in Gemini
11
L1088[22:59:11] <JCB> sorry, I couldn't
htink of something else that spun around fast
L1089[22:59:18] <JCB> toy top...
L1090[22:59:31] <ConductingCat> There
have been experiments raising chickens in >1 g.
L1091[22:59:39] <ConductingCat> Very buff
chickens.
L1092[22:59:59]
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L1093[23:00:54] <JCB> ... midgets in
space...
L1094[23:01:04] <Blaank> The largest
problem I see for spacers is intracranial pressure disrupting
vision.
L1095[23:01:13] <JCB> mind you, old days,
NASA was all gunho about trying to get average or slightly shorter
than average
L1096[23:01:20] <Blaank> Since that
doesn't go away no matter how long you spend in zero g
L1098[23:09:46]
⇨ Joins: Oneiros (Oneiros!webchat@144.130.153.1)
L1099[23:10:19] <Blaank> Ooooooooh
booooy. SpaceX is going to be doing fairing surfing now.
L1100[23:10:33] <Blaank> They are working
it out. The latest launch had RCS thrusters on the fairings.
L1101[23:11:38] <Oneiros> i would love to
ride waves on a spacex fairing surfboard
L1102[23:12:22] <Blaank> I love the chaos
and stuff it caused.
L1103[23:12:34] <Blaank> Who knew a
rocket launch could cause that much panic?
L1104[23:15:41] <JCB> caused at least one
car crash..
L1105[23:15:56] <Oneiros> o.O
L1106[23:16:31] <Oneiros> when was
this
L1108[23:19:25]
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closed for inactivity)
L1109[23:19:27] <tawny-> fairing
surfing?
L1110[23:20:09] <Oneiros> damn that looks
awesome
L1111[23:21:05] <JCB> fairing surfing the
chutes the last bit?
L1112[23:21:11] <JCB> the=then
L1113[23:22:27] <tawny-> as in, like,
gliding them down through the atmosphere, or?
L1114[23:23:16] <JCB> I suspect they
trying to glide them.. but probably some sorta chute system back to
the ground the last bit.
L1115[23:23:48] <JCB> mostly cuz I think
fairings into planes that fly back down might be .. um..
complex?
L1116[23:24:38] <Oneiros> hm, i thought
fairings would have burnt up
L1117[23:26:06] <JCB> not
nessarilly..
L1118[23:26:20] <JCB> they do keep out a
bit of heat going up..
L1119[23:26:42] <tawny-> I know people
have found pieces of them from reentry
L1120[23:26:53] <tawny-> which implies
they're at least sorta good at surviving it
L1121[23:27:26] <JCB> they also not going
completely at orbital velocity when they get ejected
L1122[23:28:44] ***
tawny- is now known as tawny
L1123[23:29:37] <tawny> vanilla ksp
fairings are basically just confetti in a convenient shape, but I
wonder if you could make procedural fairings or another mod's parts
into something that you can reenter safely?
L1124[23:30:28] <Oneiros> that would be
cool
L1125[23:31:01] <Oneiros> and have a
random chance that they land on someone, thus costing you
reputation and funds in the form of a damages claim
L1126[23:31:11] <JCB> you can clam shell
the stock fairings.. just have to take care with how they are
built
L1127[23:31:35] <Oneiros> unless you
safely parachute them or surf them into the sea or something.
L1128[23:32:02] <JCB> egh.. I'm sure
someone's built confetti style fireworks in ksp
L1129[23:32:29] <ve2dmn> ok, I was
confused by the MKS mod. It seems it can't really be used 'as
intended' without KAS
L1130[23:32:43] <ve2dmn> even if it
doesn't requires it
L1131[23:34:23]
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L1132[23:35:52]
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L1133[23:36:58] <Blaank> Oh no.
Stationeers is by the DayZ guy.
L1134[23:37:10] <JCB> saw that.. kinda
eh..
L1135[23:37:23] <JCB> system seems neat,
not so keen on the look style
L1136[23:37:25] <Blaank> That pentagonal
lens flare
L1137[23:37:25] <ve2dmn> link?
L1139[23:37:40] <kmath> YouTube -
Stationeers - Building A Space Station using Both Hands
L1140[23:37:52] <Blaank> horrifying
L1141[23:37:53] <JCB> also.. coal on the
mun.... moon.. ugh.
L1142[23:38:14] <JCB> remember when
people had a hard time trying to call it mun instead of moon and
kerbin instead of earth? c_C;
L1143[23:38:41] <Blaank> oh no, left and
right hands
L1144[23:44:18] <Blaank> This is a lot
more complicated than it needs to be.
L1146[23:44:52] <Blaank>
stationeers
L1147[23:44:54] <JCB> the game..?
L1148[23:45:04] <Blaank> It's like 3d
SS13 with all the bad parts ported as well
L1149[23:45:22] <ConductingCat> :3
L1150[23:45:39] <JCB> ok I should
probably look up SS13... people have made a number of references to
it
L1151[23:46:00] <Blaank> It's ...... a
thing
L1152[23:47:14] *
ConductingCat MASSIVE CHALICEs.
L1153[23:48:08] <Blaank> Another early
access space game.
L1154[23:48:10] <Blaank> ugh
L1155[23:48:16] <Blaank> Have any been
released?
L1156[23:49:04]
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L1157[23:49:28] <JCB> don't know...
L1158[23:49:46] <Blaank> Wait, KSP
released
L1159[23:49:48] <JCB> but some reason now
I'm pondering getting copy of xcom 1 and 2... just to get back to
building and managing type games
L1160[23:50:07] <Blaank> The new
xcoms?
L1161[23:50:11] <Blaank> Or the old
ones?
L1162[23:50:20] <JCB> old
L1163[23:50:31] <ve2dmn> try Xenonauts
too
L1164[23:50:35] <JCB> I had it ages
ago... friend used to play it on his pc and I sorta pickedup on it
after
L1165[23:51:00] <Blaank> I really don't
like the hand and tool switching of stationeers
L1166[23:51:03] <JCB> only down side was
... newer pc's ran it too fast
L1167[23:51:06] <Blaank> That's the least
good part of SS13
L1168[23:52:20] <ve2dmn> Blaank: I think
I'm gonna go with Astroneer insted of Stationeer
L1169[23:52:27] <Blaank> Space Engineers
feels like it's stagnated.
L1170[23:52:37] <Oneiros> there was space
engineers
L1171[23:52:47] <Blaank> Astroneer is an
ok arcady space thing
L1172[23:52:53] <Blaank> Pretty
shallow
L1173[23:54:25]
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L1174[23:55:14] <JCB> I would love to
build my ship from the RR'ing I've done online..
L1175[23:55:20] <Blaank> Stationeers is
certainly dragged down by the inventory system.
L1176[23:55:39] <ve2dmn> very
L1177[23:55:53] <Blaank> The design is
clearly inspired by another user interface atrocity: Space Station
13.
L1178[23:56:04] <ve2dmn> I mean..that
problem was solved back in System Shock 2
L1179[23:56:06]
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L1180[23:56:33] <JCB> what was it someone
said another game seemed a bit system shock like..?
L1181[23:56:53] <JCB> or was it
stationeers?
L1182[23:57:37]
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L1183[23:57:44] <Blaank> Oh, game is
hardcore mode only. You have one life. You die, deletes your save.
That's nice.
L1184[23:58:20] <JCB> lol... save another
copy of the game
L1185[23:59:20] <Blaank> right now I'm
looking for "Like Space Engineers but it doesn't delete your
inventory upon disconnecting from a multiplayer server."
L1186[23:59:51] <Blaank> If you loose
connection for any reason, your inventory is deleted, no corpse, no
loot, gone, period, 100% working as intended.