L5[04:06:35] <Darkelarious> thanks for the reminder, I almost forgot

L6[04:12:02] <Darkelarious> About yesterday's discussion with CovertJaguar and Natesky9 (no highlight) ,

L7[04:12:02] <Darkelarious> The logic is, from an abstract point of view, very specific for railcraft. I have my own ideas about that logic and it works most of the time, but even with Forecaster's tutorial videos, I often struggle with some basics. What I would really like to see is a depiction of "correct" signalling in some standard situations, like two or more tracks merging into one (main track and side track)

L8[04:12:45] <Darkelarious> and eventually it's up to the user to make their definition of correct, but I need a starting point from which to compare whether I'm doing it as intended, or that I'm deviating from that "Standard"

L9[04:15:04] <Darkelarious> the other problem I'm having is with high speed rails and signalling, I think we discussed that some time ago already; when a train moves with high speed from one signalling block to the other, with a holding (or equivalent) track inbetween, the tail of my train either catches the unpowered holding track at high speed and will explode, or due to constructions with booster/transition tracks, it gets slowed down

L10[04:16:33] <Darkelarious> my solution was to make that separation somewhere 20-30 blocks in front of the next track, but that means you have "gaps" in your signalling as you're trusting that there's nothing coming into the other block from either a junction or opposite direction

L11[04:17:16] <Darkelarious> I think there are solutions in "vanilla" railcraft without introducing new or modified blocks, but I have not found a "clean" solution yet

L13[04:28:40] <Darkelarious> oh, and another thing I was wondering about.. is it possible, preferable and realistic to have some cosmetically good-looking block that repulses all mobs from the tracks? like the magnum torch that prevents mobs from spawning in a certain area, would it be an idea to have some expensive end-game block or torch that pushes/repulses/despawns all mobs away from your (high speed) tracks so that you either don't ne

L14[04:28:41] <Darkelarious> monorail-like bridge, but that you can put your tracks inside the landscape safely instead?

L15[04:29:05] <Darkelarious> or some fence that looks like it's only 1 block high, but repells arrows up to 3-4 blocks high so you don't get hit?

L18[08:28:49] <Forecaster> crushed obsidian blocks mob spawning

L19[08:28:52] <Forecaster> that's what it's for

L20[08:31:40] <Forecaster> @Darkelarious I'm confused about your issues

L21[08:32:06] <Forecaster> there is no standard, you build a system that does what you need

L22[08:32:18] <Forecaster> my videos are there to explain how the pieces work

L23[08:32:42] <Forecaster> if there's something that's missing from then I'd like to know so I can take that into account when I re-make them

L24[08:32:50] <Forecaster> if there's something that's missing from them I'd like to know so I can take that into account when I re-make them [Edited]

L25[08:38:21] <Darkelarious> I should go through the vids and compare them with my problems, I'm also not up-to-date anymore on what exists

L26[08:40:38] <Darkelarious> when rc for 1.12 is publicly available (is it already?) i'll just make some testcases and see what status is

L27[08:41:08] <Forecaster> there's a beta

L28[08:45:22] <Darkelarious> as soon as i have the hardware for my new server in, i'll get to it and report back :)

L29[09:18:03] <fLAK> @Forecaster I believe what @Darkelarious was asking for was a way to prevent mobs from getting near tracks, because while you can prevent mobs from spawning there they can still walk into areas they shouldn't be, unless you build on elevated platforms or enclose the whole thing in a tunnel.

L30[09:18:24] <Forecaster> put fences on the sides...

L31[09:19:05] <fLAK> It does't sound like he want's that

L32[09:19:54] <Forecaster> well that's their choice

L33[09:19:58] <fLAK> I mean, if he's asking here then wouldn't you think he already considered fences?

L34[09:20:06] <Forecaster> I elevate my HS tracks generally to keep mobs away from them

L35[09:23:18] <fLAK> Yeah but just reread his question, he's suggesting an expensive end-game item/block/torch to repel mobs so he can run HS tracks nicely along the terrain.

L36[09:25:44] <Forecaster> I know. I read the same thing you did.

L37[09:27:33] <Darkelarious> the fences or same-level track are just a open question, not related to the signalling thing

L38[09:28:08] <Forecaster> I doubt railcraft will have a magic way of keeping tracks clear

L39[09:28:34] <Forecaster> you'll either have to elevate the tracks, build a glass tunnel or something, or use something from another mod

L40[09:28:41] <Darkelarious> what i noticed about my same-level tracks, is that even with fences, arrows can be shot over by skeletons, and that mobs start following you

L41[09:28:56] <Darkelarious> that's what I'm trying to address

L42[09:29:09] <Darkelarious> and indeed, elevated tracks, glass tunnels, magnum torches, etc that all works

L43[09:29:14] <Forecaster> See glass tunnel :P

L44[09:29:23] <Forecaster> and certain mods add very fancy glass

L45[09:29:39] <Darkelarious> myeah

L46[09:30:27] <Darkelarious> i think that I'll give some full-transparent glass a chance next

L47[09:30:47] <Darkelarious> so it looks like a single wooden fence, but 2-3 layers of transparent panes on top

L48[09:31:28] <Forecaster> railcraft also have fairly fancy posts (that are kinda buggy in 1.12 but still)

L49[09:31:52] <Darkelarious> ow, the metal posts that if you have a single block in the air, it's invisible? :)

L50[09:32:12] <Forecaster> yeah, like I said, buggy :P

L51[09:32:27] <Darkelarious> that was the case in 1.10 or 1.11 already as well :)

L52[09:32:38] <Darkelarious> but meh, it's known and worked on, so not relevant :P

L53[09:32:39] <Forecaster> there's no 1.11 version

L54[09:32:43] <Darkelarious> then it was 1.10

L55[09:32:47] <Darkelarious> it's been a while since I tried

L56[09:33:03] <Forecaster> it's know and will be fixed eventually

L57[09:33:11] <Darkelarious> >eventually

L58[09:33:15] <Darkelarious> that's all we're ever hope for :)

L59[09:33:17] <Forecaster> yep

L60[09:33:25] <Darkelarious> that's all we ever hope for :) [Edited]

L61[09:33:39] <Forecaster> I can make up a timeframe if you want

L62[09:33:50] <Darkelarious> wait wait, there should be a dilbert comic about that

L63[09:35:08] <Darkelarious> anyway

L64[09:35:44] <Darkelarious> as said, I'll sketch some signalling issues / routing issues / block issues that I'm having and discuss them around the same time those bugs get fixed >:)

L65[09:36:18] <Forecaster> you do that

L66[09:38:51] <Darkelarious> it'll probably be around the same time that I finish my first minecraft mod that I started on so long ago in the future already

L67[09:38:57] <Darkelarious> \* cries in java \*

L68[09:39:28] <Forecaster> "long ago in the future"

L69[09:39:29] <Forecaster> :P

L70[09:40:20] <KillTyrant> I chuckled at that as well

L71[09:41:29] <KillTyrant> Dark, I generally do what engineers IRL do. Raised track and if it cant be raised than bushes with fences.

L72[09:41:47] <Darkelarious> oh, i didn't say I couldn't get it done :P

L73[09:42:07] <Darkelarious> *pulls out 400 screenshots of a few thousands blocks of Epic. f-ing. rail track.

L74[09:42:35] <Forecaster> you can post som of those in #showcase if you want

L75[09:42:53] <Darkelarious> I linked it in showcase, but i cleaned up my server yesterday so that link is dead

L76[09:56:26] <Darkelarious> what do you prefer, a 120MB dump of screenshots, or link to a website? :)

L77[09:57:32] <Darkelarious> (arf, afk, bbl)

L78[09:58:00] <Forecaster> I did say "some"

L79[09:58:18] <texaswriter> so, like less than 120 MB lol?

L80[09:58:22] <Forecaster> just post a select few directly to the channel

L81[11:12:14] <WiFiN> plow cart could solve the problem of mobs on the track in a spectacular way

L82[11:35:29] <liach> well, mob ai avoid tracks by default

L83[11:36:55] <Darkelarious> anyway, link posted with some sshots

L84[11:37:30] <Darkelarious> too bad the generic survival landscape does not have flat areas with different biomes for 3000 blocks

L85[11:37:43] <Darkelarious> on the other hand, it's minecraft. you can make it happen.

L86[11:38:04] <Darkelarious> anyway, later.

L87[11:38:40] <TheMadMen> Hello everyone, my name is Louis, also know as TheMadMen on MineCraft.

L88[11:38:53] <Darkelarious> there's still so many things I want to do in minecraft. and irl. and mod-wise. I'm going to game the shit out of my retirement in 96 years....

L89[11:39:01] <Darkelarious> hi @TheMadMen

L90[11:40:05] <TheMadMen> I have aspiration of becoming a mod pack creator, and Railcraft is one of my favourite mod.

L91[11:44:13] <Darkelarious> ?faq

L92[11:44:16] <Darkelarious> .faq

L93[11:44:24] <Darkelarious> !faq

L94[11:44:25] <GearBot> Message contained 4 or more newlines and was pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/runizibiqi

L95[11:44:27] <Darkelarious> there we go

L96[11:47:09] <TheMadMen> Oups, did I trigger the bot ?

L97[11:53:35] <Forecaster> no

L98[12:09:29] <liach> darkelarious did

L99[12:14:03] <KillTyrant> Gahhh why are lga 1155 boards so expensive >.<

L100[12:53:36] <Natesky9> old standard?

L101[12:59:34] <KillTyrant> But 500+??

L102[12:59:55] <KillTyrant> Not even new, but a refurbished

L103[13:37:05] <Chocohead> Even X79 boards aren't that much

L104[14:18:20] <KillTyrant> I know! It's almost cheaper to build a modern rig over older one.

L105[14:56:19] <CovertJaguar> regarding skeletons shooting trains, I do plan to make carts more resistant to mob damage

L106[14:57:27] <CovertJaguar> @Darkelarious you mention locking tracks catching the end of trains... that isn't supposed to happen with train mode locking tracks, if it is, I'd consider it a bug

L107[14:58:23] <CovertJaguar> I admit I haven't given HS track signaling much thought

L108[14:59:31] <CovertJaguar> junctions these days are mostly just token signals all around with interlocks on the approach lines

L109[15:01:21] <CovertJaguar> I do know however that there is some kind of rare serialization bug with interlock, but the result seems to be deadlock rather than collisions and sometimes Token Signals lose track of trains existing the zone, but the result there is also deadlock

L110[15:01:42] <CovertJaguar> I do know however that there is some kind of rare serialization bug with interlock, but the result seems to be deadlock rather than collisions and sometimes Token Signals lose track of trains exiting the zone, but the result there is also deadlock [Edited]

L111[15:02:13] <Darkelarious> I think the HS catching is not a bug, but implementation issue on my side

L112[15:02:38] <Darkelarious> i think we also discussed that during the time that i pointed out that a train could go from high speed to standstill on a locking track if red signal

L113[15:03:09] <CovertJaguar> hmm.... yeah I could see a red arriving too late for the train to stop

L114[15:03:24] <Darkelarious> yup, basically that

L115[15:03:27] <Darkelarious> but not only

L116[15:04:07] <CovertJaguar> you'd basically have to trigger the slowdown and then using a capacitor box for a delay before activating the locking track

L117[15:04:14] <Darkelarious> i want to do fancy things like "if next section is clear, but the one after that occuppied, then slow down"

L118[15:04:34] <CovertJaguar> but the result could be the train entering an occupied zone

L119[15:04:38] <Darkelarious> but right now it's indeed a lot of boxes

L120[15:05:33] <CovertJaguar> hmm....we were talking about the other day, a new type of signal based on graphs that would cover the use cases of bother types of existing signals and do it better

L121[15:05:36] <Darkelarious> and i haven't found a solution yet for large freight areas with a lot of tracks

L122[15:05:53] <CovertJaguar> one of the consideration was detection of occupied zones beyond the current block

L123[15:05:53] <Darkelarious> grahs?

L124[15:05:55] <Darkelarious> graphs*?

L125[15:06:10] <Darkelarious> but yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about

L126[15:06:41] <CovertJaguar> ie scan the track layout and build connection graphs to define complex shaped blocks

L127[15:06:59] <Darkelarious> nice

L128[15:08:46] <Darkelarious> what i often struggle with, is that i have a lot of tracks at a station, then some double-track to some far-out corner on the map, an intersection or a split to 2-3 more locations, and at every location another set of tracks fanning out into multiple platforms, industrial/freight areas and so on

L129[15:08:54] <CovertJaguar> hmm....we were talking about the other day, a new type of signal based on graphs that would cover the use cases of both types of existing signals and do it better [Edited]

L130[15:09:08] <Darkelarious> and Forecaster helped with the general routing logic about two years ago, and that works great

L131[15:09:20] <Darkelarious> but the signalling i sort of did in a (in my opinion) dirty way

L132[15:09:27] <Darkelarious> by having overlap in the signalling areas

L133[15:09:51] <CovertJaguar> I definitely agree signaling is burdensome atm

L134[15:10:12] <Darkelarious> fyi, i'm not complaining -- i think it demands abstract thinking and I'm in favour of that

L135[15:10:21] <Darkelarious> but it's a subject worth of discussion :)

L136[15:10:22] <CovertJaguar> the Token Signals help _alot_, but they aren't perfect

L137[15:10:53] <Darkelarious> that aside, i don't think tokens are the solution if you have a lot of trains and a lot of destinations

L138[15:11:23] <CovertJaguar> deadlock due to too many trains wanting to use an intersection?

L139[15:11:33] <Darkelarious> no doubt that will happen too

L140[15:11:58] <CovertJaguar> what is the limitation of token signals then?

L141[15:12:57] <Darkelarious> i didn't experience limitations with token signels, i just doubled my tracks

L142[15:13:30] <Darkelarious> what I meant to say, is that token signals do not solve my particular issue

L143[15:14:16] <CovertJaguar> what is that issue? too many trains wanting to use a single track?

L144[15:14:27] <Darkelarious> sec

L145[15:17:01] <Darkelarious> I think that, when making my problems abstract workpackages, there are three general issues: 1) trains following too close behind each other at high speed, which you already addressed with possible new signals or different signalling techniques; 2) merging two tracks onto one track in a Y-merge, 3) trains crossing over from 1 track to another, sort of like an |\| layout

L146[15:17:17] <Darkelarious> er.. that last one requires some fancy ascii arting or drawing... sec

L147[15:20:32] <Darkelarious> situation 1 is pretty clear:

L148[15:20:32] <Darkelarious> `=|=====[train one]>========|=============[train two]>========|=====`

L149[15:20:33] <Darkelarious> where `|` are signal block start/ends

L150[15:21:11] <Darkelarious> Message contained 4 or more newlines and was pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/ekasasixid

L151[15:21:46] <Darkelarious> and situation 3:

L152[15:21:46] <Darkelarious> Code Block pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/icogiweyec

L153[15:21:46] <Darkelarious> where both trains are still driving in the same direction

L154[15:22:05] <Darkelarious> for all my sitations, i never expect trains driving towards each other

L155[15:22:16] <Darkelarious> unless something really Fabulous'd Up happens

L156[15:22:40] <Darkelarious> i think these are also the standard situations that I tried to describe to Forecaster, but didn't get explained in a clear way yet

L157[15:28:11] <Darkelarious> also to clarify, these are the kinds of problems that I'm struggling with in general and solved in some ways (but imo always the dirty way), it's not something I'm trying to get fixed urgently

L158[15:37:24] <Darkelarious> situation 2 I fixed now by having signals A B and C, and relay blocks D E and F in place like so:

L159[15:37:24] <Darkelarious> Code Block pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/ecuvevisin

L160[15:37:47] <Darkelarious> so the signal block is routed A-----D--E----B

L161[15:37:59] <Darkelarious> as if they were to make a U-turn instead of a Y-merge

L162[15:38:36] <Darkelarious> and it then relies on the train being long enough to keep ADEB occuppied if C-F is occuppied

L163[15:55:18] <Darkelarious> ..what.. was my monologue so boring that everyone fell asleep?

L164[15:58:13] <KillTyrant> Lol treat this chat as if its IRC

L165[15:58:26] <KillTyrant> Check back in a couple hours

L166[15:59:14] <Darkelarious> that's the spirit <3

L167[16:16:29] <CovertJaguar> sorry got distracted by other things

L168[16:18:27] <KillTyrant> "Things"

L169[16:18:50] <CovertJaguar> regarding #3, is this what you are talking about? https://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Path_signals

L170[16:19:53] <CovertJaguar> @Darkelarious regarding #3, is this what you are talking about? https://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Path_signals

L171[16:21:29] <CovertJaguar> #2 looks like it could be simplified with Token Signals

L172[16:22:32] <CovertJaguar> #1 would indeed benefit from "yellow means following block occupied"

L173[16:24:06] <CovertJaguar> any place you use several overlapping block signals can generally be simplified significantly with a single Token Signal block covering the entire area

L174[16:26:35] <CovertJaguar> as for #3, I'm not sure if your problem is just signaling it at all (which I assume yes) or if its the problem described on the TTD wiki. As I said the other day, Path Based Signaling is probably not coming to Railcraft as its basically a "total control" system and our framework isn't designed around such an idea

L178[17:36:18] <Darkelarious> @CJ yes, that looks like #3 yes

L179[17:37:11] <Darkelarious> maybe with routing blocks and signalling you could make your own pathing

L180[17:38:59] <Forecaster> You can already do that :P

L181[17:48:42] <Darkelarious> there you have it :p

L182[17:48:50] <Darkelarious> ok, bedtime