L1[00:48:22] <KillTyrant> I dont think you should conflate a feature with a bug. I was more focused on tracks more so than trains but I dont think its a bridge to far. id just have to think of a way to balance it so it wouldnt seem like needless tedium.

L2[00:53:25] <CovertJaguar> such things are typically referred to as "resource sinks" in the game design community, rather than goals, they are a way to consume a player's output so they don't ever have quite enough resources

L3[00:55:44] <CovertJaguar> in Factorio it's research, in Space Engineers (with modded enemies) its ammunition

L4[00:55:46] <texaswriter> I'd have to agree with Nate.. I hated this City simulator tha tmade me repair roads...

L5[00:55:58] <texaswriter> i ended up having to congest my already congested roads

L6[00:55:58] <CovertJaguar> Minecraft doesn't have many resource sinks

L7[00:56:11] <texaswriter> with traffic to keep the roads maintained... unmaintained roads congested roads too.

L8[00:56:32] <texaswriter> congest congested roads to prevent congested roads

L9[00:56:40] <texaswriter> that's some inception-level congestion right there

L10[00:57:13] <CovertJaguar> Tools and enchantment roulette are about the only non-modded resource sinks

L11[00:57:48] <CovertJaguar> For Railcraft its generally fuel

L12[00:58:53] <CovertJaguar> and honestly, a lot mods are about "solving" resource sinks, rather than creating new ones

L13[00:59:46] <CovertJaguar> the end result almost always being pseudo-creative mode

L14[01:01:30] <CovertJaguar> as for whether Railcraft needs a metals resource sink.... I have no idea... I'd lean no just because, yes maintenance type resource sinks are always painful and hard to make "fun"

L15[01:02:28] <texaswriter> If RC was used by itself, it probably uses plenty of resources.

L16[01:02:45] <texaswriter> combined with a tech mod, other than crafting cost, the continuous cost isn't too bad

L17[01:03:09] <texaswriter> a lot of mods make maintenance (power usage) ... at least for electric, not too painful

L18[01:04:20] <CovertJaguar> don't mistake me, resource sinks _are_ necessary to create challenging and fun gameplay, you just have to be careful that your resource sink add challenge rather than tedium

L19[01:05:06] <CovertJaguar> fuel is one that adds challenge, because it makes you seek out or build better fuel sources

L20[01:05:57] <CovertJaguar> which if Forestry is your primary source fuel, adds it own resources sinks... and suddenly you have an economy of sorts to balance and manage

L21[01:06:22] <CovertJaguar> which if Forestry is your primary source of fuel, it adds it own resources sinks... and suddenly you have an economy of sorts to balance and manage [Edited]

L22[01:06:46] <CovertJaguar> which is "fun", rather than tedious

L23[01:09:56] <CovertJaguar> anyway that's my thoughts, I need to get to sleep

L24[01:24:08] <KillTyrant> I know RC doesnt exist in a vacuum but too often im seeing other mods brought up as a "counter" of sorts. If we can be blunt and honest, the stuff RC does, other mods do faster and more efficient. However, the purpose of this mod is to scratch a certain itch that only rails and trains can do. I kinda brought up the idea of maintenance as a green hat idea. Just threw the idea out there and see where we can potenti

L25[01:24:08] <KillTyrant> thought of degradation to eventual replacement with "abandoned tracks". Maybe with trains, it can be sand and oil (sand helps with climbing elevation and oil lubricates). With electric trains there could be capacitors (or insert some other component) that needs to be replaced over time. I just think it adds a layer of gameplay that I think would be interesting. Perhaps I just suck at selling the idea is all

L26[01:36:13] <texaswriter> Everybody has ideas. it's good to be able to express one's ideas

L27[01:36:38] <texaswriter> Having options is always nice

L28[01:36:48] <texaswriter> Such a thing might be a config option

L29[01:36:55] <texaswriter> definitely, real world railroads need maintenance

L30[01:37:00] <texaswriter> like all things

L31[01:56:53] <KillTyrant> Im also a sucker for punishment of wrong choices. I come from an era in gaming where a memory card didnt exist and you had to beat a game in one sitting so I enjoy the rough path. Makes overcoming them all the more enjoyable for me. I know I might the minority so I try to keep my ideas tempered with that in mind

L34[06:59:55] <Darkelarious> in that respect, I think that railcraft could consider to abandon some of the less relevant blocks, like coke ovens and steam turbines, but on the other hand, that would create a dependency on other mods. I think dependency on other mods is dangerous because that means that when others decide to drop or change certain features, it breaks your mod instead

L35[07:03:07] <LuigiHutch> what? so it should remove its blocks because other mods have copied RC and have added them?

L36[07:04:11] <LuigiHutch> that makes no sense

L37[07:59:05] <Natesky9> well, yes and no

L38[07:59:26] <Natesky9> Vanilla added core features that started out as mods

L39[07:59:37] <Natesky9> and then those mods were unnecesary

L40[07:59:58] <Natesky9> for example, pistons and hoppers

L41[08:00:12] <Natesky9> but that doesn't mean that there can't exist similar features

L42[08:00:34] <Natesky9> after all, a good mod is one that doesn't need anything but itself and vanilla to function

L43[08:02:31] <KillTyrant> Funny enough I thought the piston mod was still better.

L44[08:02:53] <KillTyrant> Hoppers were from BC right?

L45[08:06:37] <KillTyrant> @Darkelarious

L46[08:06:37] <KillTyrant> I dont think coke ovens and the turbine are irrelevant. They are an optional step in processing but one that depending on mod pack, may be necessary. I could understand if there was let's say a less efficient coke oven that is so easily made obsolete then I would say there is merit in that thought process. However, I think you might be conflating your own play style and tastes with "fat" on a mod.

L47[08:11:45] <Natesky9> I have never used the rock crusher unless there was a craftweaker recipe

L48[08:11:57] <Natesky9> it's simply too expensive

L49[08:12:06] <Darkelarious> imagine that you have railcraft, industrialcraft and immersive engineering

L50[08:12:18] <Darkelarious> immersive engineering has coke ovens too

L51[08:12:25] <Darkelarious> and industrialcraft provides for generators

L52[08:12:34] <Darkelarious> in theory you could take components out of railcraft now

L53[08:12:44] <Darkelarious> but that would also make it a demand to install immersive as well

L54[08:12:56] <Darkelarious> what if i don't want to play immersive? what if it crashes me so i dont' want it?

L55[08:13:17] <Darkelarious> those are reasons *not* to want to depend on other mods

L56[08:13:42] <Darkelarious> on the other hand, if i have enderio, immersive, industrialcraft and railcraft, i have 2 or 3 kinds of coal coke, 4 different generators and so on

L57[08:13:48] <Darkelarious> do they have to be interoperable?

L58[08:13:58] <Darkelarious> should i have 2 kinds of coke ovens? etc

L59[08:14:06] <Darkelarious> i think it's pretty compatible by now

L60[08:14:20] <Darkelarious> but i'm saying that I don't consider it selfexplanatory or implied that this is how it should work

L61[08:14:48] <Darkelarious> for the record, i'm not pushing one or the other statements in favour or against

L62[08:15:20] <Darkelarious> but if the decision were to made for railcraft to depend on specific mods, then railcraft could focus solely on rail stuff like signals, tracks and trains

L63[08:15:28] <Darkelarious> without having to maintain the dependencies around it

L64[08:16:08] <Natesky9> yes, if it depended on another mod, it could focus more on it's own features, than having to reinvent things that already exist

L65[08:17:00] <Darkelarious> exactly

L66[08:17:14] <Darkelarious> of course, also the other disadvantages I brought up against that :)

L67[08:18:05] <Forecaster> we're not going to get rid of coke ovens and turbines

L68[08:19:39] <Darkelarious> it was just any generic example, nor am I asking for any of that to be removed (i think it would also be ridiculous to be demanding or asking that in the first place)

L69[08:19:55] <Forecaster> Railcraft is intended to operate with no other mods

L70[08:20:14] <Darkelarious> \* raises hand to ask a question \*

L71[08:20:30] <Darkelarious> what about industrialcraft for power? or is that something that now is no longer necessary?

L72[08:20:42] <Forecaster> what do you mean

L73[08:20:58] <Natesky9> though, that is a good question. If there is a better say, coke oven, available within a modpack, should railcraft disable theirs in favor of the other?

L74[08:21:00] <Darkelarious> electric trains were powered with IC2 power/EU last time i played

L75[08:21:12] <Forecaster> yeah... in the alpha versions...

L76[08:21:14] <Natesky9> electric trains now are powered with charge

L77[08:21:17] <Forecaster> that don't have boilers

L78[08:21:22] <Darkelarious> ah, ok

L79[08:21:28] <Darkelarious> I missed that, excellent, I like that

L80[08:21:55] <Darkelarious> but as Nate points out, that's the kind of consideration that exists

L81[08:22:02] <Darkelarious> on the other hand, you would also depend on the other mod's progression

L82[08:22:10] <Darkelarious> in railcraft, coke ovens require nether

L83[08:22:15] <Forecaster> that's up to the pack creator

L84[08:22:21] <Darkelarious> what if my mod makes a coke oven that only uses sand and cobble?

L85[08:22:42] <Darkelarious> or worse, what if my coke coal is not compatible with railcraft?

L86[08:24:21] <KillTyrant> Think ore dictionary takes care of that last worry, right? (Never made a mod pack so I'm not 100% familiar)

L87[08:32:02] <KillTyrant> That said, you're looking at RC through the lens of other mods. You cant view individual mods in that fashion because you lose the flavor that mod brings to the table. RC is more or less meant to scratch and itch that instant goods transportation cant. There is a reason alot of people use RC as a means to transport people mostly and even that is quickly made obsolete with instant transmission mods or plugins. Whi

L88[08:32:02] <KillTyrant> should be changed or cut based on over abundance or ease of use from other mods. Modpack authors can make the call on how they want to tailor their modpacks. RC shouldn't do it for em.

L89[08:32:02] <KillTyrant> Does that make sense?

L91[11:38:08] <Rail Network Chief> Uh

L92[11:48:07] <Rail Network Chief> Yes. That's true. But some people like to do those team bases on servers but don't have insta TP or item transfer available. Railcraft brings a nice change in transportation of everything. Tying averagely well with Coms and mods like botania or Steve's, they bring more fun to MC a whole. It's more fun to see trains of manacarts traveling to the eastern parts of the Rail Network from the Northern smoke fil

L93[11:48:07] <Rail Network Chief> massive trains loaded with piles of essentia crystals to the Southern City of Mages from the advanced tech city of Yîs in the West.

L104[18:59:02] <KillTyrant> I 100% agree with you. Hence why I'm a bit on the unrelenting side. I've always used RC because it was off the beaten path and harder to do right. So when you got that multiple connections going and you watch at trains full of your extracted goods are converted into refined and finished product to be shipped elsewhere. It's a kind of amazing sight to behold.

L105[19:26:33] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> agree with what u just said @KillTyrant at 200%, everytime i've been playing when RC is on the pack im using i just have to do it that way

L106[19:26:54] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> even item sorting systems i've done them with RC and advance loaders

L107[19:27:41] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> i tend to build far appart where i have small bases each one for a certain mod and i use RC to move items around

L108[19:28:28] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> i remember once having a 23 line station recieving about 40 trains each min

L109[19:29:17] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> shame the world is lost otherwhise i would post a ScreenSHot

L110[19:31:50] <KillTyrant> Sad to hear

L111[19:34:12] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> minght end up doing a Creative build just to show off xD

L112[19:34:25] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> or just build one in the server LOL

L113[19:34:33] <xXxNeeD4BlooDxXx> well, im out, Cya tmrow

L114[19:38:06] <KillTyrant> Lata m8y

L115[19:41:57] <Rail Network Chief> Hahahahaha

L116[19:43:04] <Rail Network Chief> You should try. Making your own ME system with RC, proj red, wrcbe, a few coms and some brains

L117[19:44:00] <Rail Network Chief> Then try doing that

L118[19:44:03] <Rail Network Chief> In vanilla

L119[19:44:09] <Rail Network Chief> Omfl

L120[19:45:21] <CovertJaguar> I just want to add.... _ALL_ that stuff you guys are talking about as "being redundant", was _first_ seen in Railcraft before everyone else copied it

L121[20:05:36] <KillTyrant> Indeed. Haha the OG of coke ovens