OCLogs: 2018-10-11.log

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L3[02:40:34]

<wormzjl> Actually, making a pack which requires trains for remote logistics is what I did.

L4[02:41:23]

<wormzjl> See https://www.atlauncher.com/pack/PerFabricaadAstra

L5[02:41:55]

<wormzjl> But from my observations, players tries to evade using rails as much as they could

L6[02:42:48]

<wormzjl> Mainly due to the amount of effort required to build them, even through rails are dirt-cheap.

L7[02:43:04]

<wormzjl> Actually, making a pack that requires trains for remote logistics is what I did. [Edited]

L8[02:45:43]

<Hanakocz> so

L9[02:45:51]

<wormzjl> Also https://github.com/Railcraft/Railcraft/issues/1460 this issue makes players who already built rails stopped their train lines -.-

L10[02:46:16]

<Hanakocz> if they were able to "blueprint" chunks of railroad, do you think that they would build it way often?

L11[02:47:32]

<wormzjl> It's somthing needs to be done in the railcraft framework

L12[02:47:46]

<wormzjl> I call it "accesibility"

L13[02:47:57]

<wormzjl> It's somthing that needs to be done in the railcraft framework [Edited]

L14[02:49:24]

<Hanakocz> well most of us did played factorio and blueprinting builds is kinda needed evolutionary step ?

L15[02:49:46]

<wormzjl> Currently for most players, railcraft is just a bunch of multioblock machines, rails "doesn't exist" -.-

L16[02:49:49]

<Hanakocz> even though it can be done via Architect mod nowadays, some more direct support would be useful

L17[02:50:05]

<wormzjl> Currently for most players, railcraft is just a bunch of multiblock machines, rails "doesn't exist" -.- [Edited]

L18[02:52:31]

<Hanakocz> well...typical me...too many ideas,not enough time to implement them....hopefully one day...

L19[02:54:24]

<wormzjl> Gonna write a issue for that

L20[02:56:34]

<wormzjl> Gonna write an issue for that [Edited]

L21[03:30:38]

<Natesky9> I think the biggest issue is actually setting up tracks

L22[03:32:05]

<Natesky9> it's one thing to clear out an area, but having to fuss with lining up tracks, clearing space, building bridges, it really takes away from actually using them. Even with blueprints, I don't think people will really use tracks unless there's a very clear benefit to using them

L23[03:34:01]

<Natesky9> the track laying cart, undercutter, bore etc, those should be core pieces of setting up rails, but currently they're more "supervised tools", where yeah, you can expect them to do their job, but you have to keep an eye on them

L24[03:35:54]

<Natesky9> also, I'm always worried about relying on trains because they're surprisingly fragile. fire, lightning, skeletons, a stray swing, alot of things can just break themd, causing all your other systems to jam, and that's no fun

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L26[03:52:43]

<wormzjl> And performance

L27[04:04:29]

<Natesky9> well, the only performance issues I've ever encountered was because of the need for chunkloading

L28[04:28:43]

<wormzjl> I call it "accessibility" [Edited]

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L33[06:09:06]

<AlexJ6301> I agree that chunkloading is an issue, and I think we need a better solution then what we have today as we seem to want to make chunkloading difficult whereas for railways it's a basic need. Building tracks, signals etc does get a little boring (and signals are expensive) but with a good *reason*, it's worth it.

L34[06:11:12]

<Natesky9> I've never gotten bored of setting up signals, that's part of the excitement

L35[06:11:41]

<Natesky9> it'd be amazing if somehow, the trains were 100% reliable, through unloaded chunks, in saving/loading

L36[06:13:37]

<Natesky9> that'd be pretty interesting, having the rail system be more of a system, where it runs regardless of the state of the world

L37[06:13:58]

<Natesky9> but for that, you'd need some way to know what is loaded, what it is or isn't interacting with

L38[06:15:43]

<Natesky9> for example, what if loaders and unloaders were, instead of just a block, behaved like a global inventory

L39[06:16:55]

<Natesky9> trains would be simulated, and their entity just changed to reflect that. That kind of system would make the mod amazing

L40[06:18:27]

<Natesky9> I'm just thinking about how factorio handles their engine, where everything runs simultaniously, and nothing really gets unloaded

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L43[06:22:51]

<Hanakocz> factorio does not run in java ?

L44[06:23:22]

<Hanakocz> also it has basically one layer while MC has 256¨

L45[06:23:24]

<Hanakocz> also it has basically one layer while MC has 256 [Edited]

L46[06:30:56]

<Natesky9> true and true, but it's the same concept

L47[06:47:38]

<Hanakocz> it would work in MC on limitedly sized map and with no creatures xD

L48[06:48:18]

<Hanakocz> factorio also has lesser issues with hitboxes and pathfinding is 2d which really takes a lot of load away

L49[06:49:52] <MCenderdragon> run factorio 256 times slower and see if you still get 60 FPS

L50[06:51:16] <MCenderdragon> Also you dont need to load every chunk for the trains to work, even if a chunk is not ticking you can still alter the blocks in it, so pathfinding would be easy enough

L51[07:13:54]

<Natesky9> yes, but the issue is that entities don't tick in inactive chunks

L52[09:41:25]

<Generalcamo> Forge did fix an issue where entities disappeared during chunk loading

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L55[10:50:13]

<liach> we need to verify that issue first though

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L57[12:23:35] <Rurko> Hi, anyone here?

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L59[12:33:48]

<Generalcamo> Maybe

L60[12:35:40]

<JMencol> okay, bot post it here... one question, is there any playable version? anythig that will allow me to build early versions of my survive mode mines before there will be official release with full funcionality? Becoming patreon would tell me it positive? (Sorry for my language)

L61[12:36:48]

<JMencol> I mean 1.12.2 version

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L64[12:48:01]

<Generalcamo> We are working on it

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L68[12:51:28]

<Resuz> I'm wondering how much time it takes to verify code

L69[12:51:46]

<Resuz> (what CovertJaguar does now)

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L72[12:52:26]

<JMencol> I know, and I'm amazed about this work but i've got only few days free and wondering if there is any possibility to play with your mod (even partialy done)

L73[12:55:33]

<Resuz> @JMencol !run

L74[12:55:38]

<Resuz> !run

L75[12:55:39]

<GearBot> https://github.com/Railcraft/Railcraft/wiki/Running-instructions-for-Minecraft-1.12.2

L76[12:57:28]

<JMencol> yeah... 3 hours today running for nothing

L77[13:03:08]

<JMencol> sorry if i'm annoying but i'm also tired searching for as I think now, my own shadow

L78[13:16:53]

<liach> in fact the build is broken, so the instruction does not work yet

L79[14:50:03]

<Cream Tea> excuse me lads

L80[14:50:20]

<Cream Tea> i have a point to add on to @wormzjl

L81[14:50:33]

<Cream Tea> I find that it's not the cost of the rails

L82[14:50:47]

<Cream Tea> when I had a server I was literally the only person bothering with rails

L83[14:51:01]

<Cream Tea> You could run and carry items quicker than needing a train

L84[14:51:39]

<Cream Tea> the max speed of a steam loco wasn't *that* much faster than running

L85[14:51:43]

<Cream Tea> on standard rails

L86[14:51:49]

<Cream Tea> I feel like standard rails should be made faster

L87[14:52:01]

<Cream Tea> but at the same time making reinforced and high speed rails faster too

L88[14:52:20]

<Cream Tea> so basically just increase the overall speed of all rails

L89[14:53:22]

<Cream Tea> @CovertJaguar consider this, iron strap track is a GREAT concept too and I know it's iron strap track but it definitely needs to be a tad faster.

L90[14:54:04]

<Cream Tea> otherwise iron strap track is just completely useless, it should be like the current standard rail but slightly slower

L91[14:54:24]

<Cream Tea> assuming the current standard rail speed would be increased as of my idea

L92[14:55:08]

<Cream Tea> The old mines that used to use iron strap track, the carts couldn't go super fast but they were not snail speed

L93[14:55:17]

<Cream Tea> ?

L94[15:24:09]

<SkySom> The issue is with High speed tracks you already are pushing up against chunk loading IIRC

L95[15:26:22]

<Cream Tea> If I recall the amount of chunks you can have loaded at once is just dependant on your computer's specs

L96[15:27:01]

<Cream Tea> You know how the block signals work, imagine if we could have a similar device that keeps all the chunks in that section loaded.

L97[15:27:18]

<Cream Tea> Can't go faster than chunks are loading if they are already loaded :Smug:

L98[15:28:44]

<Cream Tea> That would solve an age old problem of trains stopping when they are far away

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L100[15:31:00]

<liach> the true cap of rail speed in mc is glitchy minecart motion

L101[16:15:14]

<AlexJ6301> Sooo, summarising, chunkloading and slow trains are important issues. Slowness we can fix by making steam locos faster (or a faster version of a steam loco). Chunkloading will never get fixed in Java (or any single threaded system design), and CPU’s aren’t getting fast enough. So, why not make chunkloading when a player is absent essentially resource free, but let the server admin allocate the number of chu

L102[16:15:14]

<AlexJ6301> After all chunkloading is a game artefact, not really the point of the game and I get tired having to design for it...

L103[16:21:26]

<Player> idk if this has been mentioned yet, but the limitation is more with how trains move and stick to the rail

L104[16:22:11]

<Cream Tea> @AlexJ6301 And hs tracks would therefore make steam locos even faster because it works on percentage.. right?

L105[16:22:23]

<Cream Tea> also chunks on single player or lan servers shouldn't be an issue

L106[16:22:25]

<Player> iirc mc is using some fairly clunky "step forward along the velocity vector", then try to snap back to the tracks

L107[16:22:33]

<Cream Tea> but on a proper server i agree

L108[16:22:38]

<Cream Tea> might need to limit that

L109[16:23:03]

<Player> fixing this would require limiting the step size by doing multiple steps per tick

L110[16:23:10]

<Player> or swapping the simulation mechanism

L111[16:23:22]

<Cream Tea> and probably increasing lag

L112[16:23:26]

<Cream Tea> xd

L113[16:24:13]

<Player> chunk loading should be fast enough

L114[16:24:54]

<Cream Tea> i mean increasing steps per tick

L115[16:25:13]

<Player> shouldn't make a big difference

L116[16:25:51]

<Player> the problem is more with lots of convoluted code being involved

L117[16:26:18]

<Player> i.e. all of mc's entity simulation logic

L118[16:27:30]

<Player> you can't just tick the whole thing twice, but have to tear all this messy code apart

L119[16:28:41]

<Cream Tea> tbh let's just make Minecraft: 2

L120[16:28:52]

<Cream Tea> but way more optimized with cool features

L121[16:28:57]

<Cream Tea> ??

L122[16:41:39]

<AlexJ6301> Actually @Cream Tea , I’d prefer train speed to be dependent on the loco, with track quality imposing an upper limit on safe speed. That way we could have better, faster, more expensive locos of all types.

L123[16:41:39]

<AlexJ6301> And yes, we need a 3D simulation building game that’s designed from the ground up to use many threads/cores/cpus/etc so that all “chunks” are loaded all the time, up to the available amount of distributed processing power. And if a particular function needs more processing power, it can have it.

L124[16:41:40]

<AlexJ6301> IMHO, the belief that Moore’s Law would last forever really did MC a disservice (and most other stuff too, especially, but not limited to, Java).

L125[16:42:11]

<Cream Tea> i mean that was a half joke

L126[16:42:14]

<Cream Tea> but it would be really cool

L127[16:42:20]

<Cream Tea> like if it was actually made

L128[16:42:33]

<Cream Tea> could be a higher definition minecraft

L129[16:42:45]

<Cream Tea> instead of the current blocks perhaps blocks on a new game could be half the size

L130[16:42:46]

<AlexJ6301> I’d pay lots of $$$

L131[16:42:48]

<Cream Tea> allowing for more detail

L132[16:42:48]

<Cream Tea> yeah

L133[16:42:56]

<Cream Tea> i'd pay $$$ for a cooler version of minecraft with more detail

L134[16:43:01]

<Cream Tea> but still keeping the blocky style obviously

L135[16:43:12]

<Cream Tea> half sized blocks could help with that

L136[16:43:15]

<AlexJ6301> Obviously. That makes it very cool!

L137[16:43:35]

<Cream Tea> like how people use slabs to decorate a roof

L138[16:43:49]

<Cream Tea> if blocks were just smaller then you could be much more detailed

L139[16:44:07]

<Cream Tea> and it would have to be built on something *other* than java

L140[16:44:29]

<Cream Tea> it would have to be object oriented though

L141[16:44:38]

<Cream Tea> and I'm not an expert on object oriented still

L142[16:44:44]

<AlexJ6301> Btw, I know what I’m saying is a really hard computational and design problem... If it were easy, it would have been done. ?

L143[16:44:47]

<CovertJaguar> I already have to artificially limit cart speed on corners and slopes for reinforced track or the carts fall off the tracks

L144[16:44:53]

<Cream Tea> lmao

L145[16:45:01]

<CovertJaguar> More speed just isn't feasible

L146[16:45:02]

<Cream Tea> i get u alex

L147[16:45:10]

<Cream Tea> well tbh

L148[16:45:19]

<Cream Tea> if I could make it I would

L149[16:45:29]

<AlexJ6301> Even to make steam as fast as electric on normal rail?

L150[16:45:39]

<Cream Tea> and I would release it as open source cuz i'd just want a cool game that can always be improved

L151[16:45:55]

<CovertJaguar> This misconception that java is slow is just that, a misconception

L152[16:45:56]

<AlexJ6301> I could design one, that didn’t work!

L153[16:46:00]

<Cream Tea> well it would half to be open source tbh

L154[16:46:07]

<Cream Tea> @Alex404 this is a normie question but i mean

L155[16:46:19]

<Cream Tea> Minecraft doesn't own the idea of voxel based

L156[16:46:24]

<Cream Tea> right

L157[16:46:32]

<CovertJaguar> Java is comparable to other languages, especially C# which all games are coded in these days

L158[16:46:32]

<AlexJ6301> Java isn’t slow as such, just the thought processes at the time it was designed that performance would be fixed by Moore’s Law.

L159[16:46:41]

<Cream Tea> like if you just had a blocky world but custom textures and sounds

L160[16:46:45]

<Cream Tea> that would be alright

L161[16:46:44]

<AlexJ6301> And C# has the same issue.

L162[16:47:17]

<Cream Tea> like

L163[16:47:17]

<Cream Tea> Also if anybody did attempt it

L164[16:47:38]

<AlexJ6301> In fact, I think that was kind of part of the point of the C# runtime design choices.

L165[16:47:50]

<CovertJaguar> Minecraft's problem is one of a few questionable design decisions limiting performance

L166[16:48:28]

<CovertJaguar> A big one being how it handles tile entities

L167[16:48:28]

<AlexJ6301> Yes, but so many other games seem to have the same problem, and I don’t think MS dealt with those in the C# design, did they?

L168[16:48:36]

<Cream Tea> i think it's just very ineffecient

L169[16:48:47]

<AlexJ6301> But still single threaded...

L170[16:48:56]

<Cream Tea> if i redesigned minecraft

L171[16:49:14]

<CovertJaguar> Java is great language for threaded applications, it is in fact it's primary use case

L172[16:50:11]

<AlexJ6301> And that’s cool, when we design systems that way. But when we don’t... ?

L173[16:51:23]

<AlexJ6301> We used to write a lot of parallel code in separate processes “in the old days” for mission critical stuff. Such as tile entities... ?

L174[16:53:03]

<AlexJ6301> In any case, I do love RC &MC even with what we have to work with today. And the fact that RC has good chunkloading facilities helps a lot. But, @Cream Tea , one day...!

L175[16:53:11]

<Cream Tea> maybe

L176[16:53:26]

<AlexJ6301> Well, not in my lifetime...

L177[16:53:27]

<Cream Tea> minecraft + rc could literally be its own game

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L179[16:53:37]

<Cream Tea> since it changes the dynamics a lot

L180[16:54:03]

<CovertJaguar> The reason games aren't coded in Java usually is because of how easy it is to turn byte code into source code, al la Minecraft

L181[16:54:05]

<AlexJ6301> That’s why the discussion on how to provide more reason for trains was so good.

L182[16:55:18]

<AlexJ6301> Yeah, well, bytecode... Sorry, just not a fan of extra layers of interpretation, but that is just my opinion having grown up hand assembling for microprocessors.

L183[16:56:18]

<AlexJ6301> But, I’m glad MC is Java as it allows Forge et al, to make such modding possible (if not easy Covert).

L184[16:56:34]

<CovertJaguar> The .NET languages are the same, they just aren't as easy to decompile

L185[16:56:54]

<AlexJ6301> Exactly, and I don’t like .net for that reason. I want a real compiler!

L186[16:59:27]

<CovertJaguar> But yeah, Minecraft is performance capped because _all_ voxel games are capped like that, there are several orders of magnitude more things that they need to keep track of that say a first person shooter which has a few entities and a static unchanging world

L187[17:00:03]

<CovertJaguar> Space Engineers for example suffers the same kind of limitations

L188[17:00:43]

<Cream Tea> any of you guys good with C

L189[17:00:48]

<Cream Tea> not c++ just c

L190[17:01:07]

<AlexJ6301> Absolutely (and I don’t play first person shooters), which gets us back to designing for performance in vowel simulation games (which I know is super hard, so this is just wishful thinking).

L191[17:01:23]

<CovertJaguar> I've use c just enough to know I hate it =P

L192[17:02:06]

<Cream Tea> if minecraft was written in C

L193[17:02:10]

<Cream Tea> imagine how much faster it would b

L194[17:02:11]

<Cream Tea> e

L195[17:02:55]

<AlexJ6301> C is so much fun, until... I’ve worked in it in a number of large systems (including an old style 4GL). I may have tried to use a null pointer or two at times, or run off the end of a string... ?

L196[17:03:32]

<Chocohead> Probably not as much as you'd think, there have been community contributed code blocks that improved game performance in beta which you wouldn't get with C

L197[17:04:24]

<Chocohead> The whole game would be an even bigger blob of Notch code

L198[17:04:29]

<CovertJaguar> Yeah, I'd posit that you'd see no significant difference if it was written in c

L199[17:04:40]

<AlexJ6301> I’ve also worked on high performance monitoring software in C++ where we needed to use less cpu/mem than the cost of monitoring. And some embedded real-time stuff too.... ah, those were the days!

L200[17:05:04]

<CovertJaguar> And probably worse because c is not even object oriented which makes the code look like spaghetti

L201[17:05:38]

<Cream Tea> true

L202[17:05:40]

<Cream Tea> but not impossible

L203[17:05:55]

<AlexJ6301> Swings and round abouts of course. Some things faster, but we’d be at a very buggy MC 1.2 by now...

L204[17:06:00]

<CovertJaguar> And as I said pointless, java isn't slow

L205[17:06:13]

<Cream Tea> imagine if minecraft was made in python

L206[17:06:25]

<CovertJaguar> Python is slow =P

L207[17:06:28]

<Cream Tea> yeah

L208[17:06:29]

<AlexJ6301> If we could just throw more cores at it, we’d be happy, right?

L209[17:06:30]

<Cream Tea> sad though

L210[17:06:38]

<Cream Tea> i used to tinker with PyGame

L211[17:06:54]

<Cream Tea> realised it's too slow to do anything more than a Scratch tier game

L212[17:07:08]

<Cream Tea> cuz i actually understand python

L213[17:07:14]

<Cream Tea> kind of understand java

L214[17:07:23] <Vexatos> ~~see that is why you use Julia~~

L215[17:07:23]

<Cream Tea> I just like simplicity of being able to press f5 and it runs

L216[17:07:59] <Vexatos> Minecraft has that :I

L217[17:07:59]

<AlexJ6301> However, it is a truth universally acknowledged that no matter how much cpu I could throw at a voxel simulation game, I would use it all up...

L218[17:08:11] <Vexatos> intelliJ has code hotswapping :^)

L219[17:08:20]

<AlexJ6301> With most trains...

L220[17:08:39]

<AlexJ6301> moar

L221[17:19:34]

<AlexJ6301> I just realised, that as a RC patron, I have spent more money on RC than I have on any other game, and close to as much as I’ve spent on all other games combined. I must really like it... ?

L222[17:19:46]

<Cream Tea> fund a new game

L223[17:19:48]

<Cream Tea> based on rc

L224[17:20:28]

<AlexJ6301> I wish I had that kind of money...

L225[17:29:26]

<CovertJaguar> And many thanks =P

L226[17:29:37]

<CovertJaguar> You people are why I'm still here

L227[17:34:24]

<AlexJ6301> And your efforts are why I am still a patron (though it was sad when you weren’t around). I consider it money well spent, given the fun I’ve had. More than KSP and Factorio (but not by much). Now, if I could just have all three in one game... sigh.

L228[18:48:42]

<Player> btw. i think i've proven that java can beat c++ in game performance now ?

L229[18:55:59] ⇦ Quits: Vexatos (Vexatos!~Vexatos@p200300C107205E723AD7F66FAC2E7C81.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Insert quantum chemistry joke here)

L230[19:01:32]

<AlexJ6301> C++ or c#?

L231[19:02:05]

<Player> well, mcpe/bedrock is the reference, which is written in c++

L232[19:03:19]

<AlexJ6301> OK, I’ll believe you... until I have evidence to the contrary... ;-).

L233[19:05:16]

<Player> you can try yourself, just needs a recent fastcraft 2 build ?

L234[19:09:35]

<AlexJ6301> OK, I'll look into it later. But what are they compiling the c++ into, I wonder... And different designs of course. And, ... and, and... I just want moar performance... ?

L235[19:17:51]

<Player> latest is at http://files.player.to/tmp/fastcraft-2.0.151.jar - for mc 1.12.2

L236[19:17:58]

<Player> i'd be surprised if you won't be ?

L237[22:05:48]

<Kobayen> So, lemmesee if I got this...

L238[22:05:48]

<Kobayen> Everyone wants better minecart speeds and functionality.

L239[22:05:48]

<Kobayen> But to have that, one must basically reqrite or redesign the entire minecart system.

L240[22:05:59]

<Kobayen> So, lemmesee if I got this...

L241[22:05:59]

<Kobayen> Everyone wants better minecart speeds and functionality.

L242[22:06:00]

<Kobayen> But to have that, one must basically rewrite or redesign the entire minecart system. [Edited]

L243[22:26:12]

<Natesky9> the motto of railcraft literally is

L244[22:26:12]

<Natesky9> *redefine your rails*

L245[22:26:35]

<Natesky9> so, doesn't that mean that the mod redefines how things work that use rails?

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