L1[00:33:22] <Amanda> %choose zzzmews?
L2[00:33:22] <MichiBot> Amanda:
Amanda's hair turns black
L3[00:33:37] <Amanda> my fur was already
black! Am a void kitn!
L4[00:41:11] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> I don't want to use vibecode on
principle, but legitimately…
L5[00:41:11] 
<Renno> The
single best thing that you can do or that any of us can do as
individual programmers is to actually kind of help and contribute
and oversee what they're doing
<Renno> The
single best thing that you can do or that any of us can do as
individual programmers is to actually kind of help and contribute
and oversee what they're doingL6[00:42:01] <Corded> > <Renno>
reacted 👆 to <Kristobear38> @SoraFirestorm if only everyone
who started their own port worked on an existin…
L7[00:42:47] <SoraFirestorm> You say that like my
philosophy on vibecode doesn't produce an oil and water
situation
<SoraFirestorm> You say that like my
philosophy on vibecode doesn't produce an oil and water
situationL8[00:43:29] <SoraFirestorm> especially in a case like
this because - again - I am largely a stranger to JVM land
<SoraFirestorm> especially in a case like
this because - again - I am largely a stranger to JVM landL9[00:44:08] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> You say that like my philosophy on vibecode
doesn't produce…
L10[00:44:08] <Renno> One
of the ultimate Achilles heels of programmers, especially the very
technical niche ones like most open computers ones are, is that
every single one of them wants to have their own creative way with
everything in such a way that it makes it very difficult or even
borderline impossible to actually mobilize any effort in a
consolidated
<Renno> One
of the ultimate Achilles heels of programmers, especially the very
technical niche ones like most open computers ones are, is that
every single one of them wants to have their own creative way with
everything in such a way that it makes it very difficult or even
borderline impossible to actually mobilize any effort in a
consolidatedL11[00:44:08] <Corded> form like a
community edition
L12[00:45:32] <SoraFirestorm> I really don't think
conflict of creative direction is what's stopping ports
<SoraFirestorm> I really don't think
conflict of creative direction is what's stopping portsL13[00:45:32] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> especially in a case like this because -
again - I am large…
L14[00:45:32] <Renno> I
personally kind of hate manually modding minecraft, it's not
very intuitive for me, so I know what you mean
<Renno> I
personally kind of hate manually modding minecraft, it's not
very intuitive for me, so I know what you meanL15[00:47:04] <Renno> I
think that's absolutely what's stopping it. I've
seen at least half a dozen different ports. Everyone wants to go
off on their own way and do it their own way. None of them want to
work together, or at least none of them want to do things in the
same way, and the few that do come together often have other real
life issues that get in
<Renno> I
think that's absolutely what's stopping it. I've
seen at least half a dozen different ports. Everyone wants to go
off on their own way and do it their own way. None of them want to
work together, or at least none of them want to do things in the
same way, and the few that do come together often have other real
life issues that get inL16[00:47:04] <Corded> the way so momentum
dies off. So they all make their own independent ports of
everything and basically never finish
L17[00:49:55] <Renno> So
say what you will, feel how you will feel about the vibe coded
version, but at least it's a version and it appears to be
generally kind of working, which is more than I can say for most,
if not all, prior attempts
<Renno> So
say what you will, feel how you will feel about the vibe coded
version, but at least it's a version and it appears to be
generally kind of working, which is more than I can say for most,
if not all, prior attemptsL18[00:54:22] *** Joins: Hawk777
(~Hawk777@2605:1700:1080:de00:6b5e:19ea:b2ae:826d) Hawk777
L19[00:59:27] <Izzy> good thing 1.12 is
still here huh
L20[01:00:09] <Hawk777> Michiyo, I am
curious, the 1.21 OC you were showing off, does that allow
pluggable architectures like the 1.12 one did?
L21[01:00:31] <Izzy> pretty much impossible
to avoid the slop though. was really hoping the bottom would fall
out of it before we got to this point but I guess people want to
throw more money at devaluing skilled labour
L22[01:00:43] <Izzy> gotta make sure the
wealthy have access to skills but the skilled have no access to
wealth
L23[01:01:21] <Izzy> ah well, we'll
all burn together
L24[01:01:37] <Corded> > <Renno>
I think that's absolutely what's stopping it. I've
seen at …
L25[01:01:37] <SoraFirestorm> It's probably just
because it's a bunch of people over time who have no idea
about each other just diving in instead of surveying whatever
efforts may or may not exist
<SoraFirestorm> It's probably just
because it's a bunch of people over time who have no idea
about each other just diving in instead of surveying whatever
efforts may or may not existL26[01:02:14] <SoraFirestorm> The undertones that people
are deliberately not working together are questionable
<SoraFirestorm> The undertones that people
are deliberately not working together are questionableL27[01:04:03] <Corded> > <Renno>
So say what you will, feel how you will feel about the vibe…
L28[01:04:03] <SoraFirestorm> It's a version in
legal limbo that realistically you shouldn't use as a base for
further work, so is it really of any legitimate long-term
value?
<SoraFirestorm> It's a version in
legal limbo that realistically you shouldn't use as a base for
further work, so is it really of any legitimate long-term
value?L29[01:04:31] <Izzy> that's an
interesting point, it can't be licensed as it's gone
through the license-washing machine
L30[01:04:55] <Amanda> I know several
independent tech contractors. Most of them charge more to clean up
slop code. And double again of you hide that it was slop
L31[01:05:54] <Amanda> The wealthy just
think they've stolen the skills, their heads will be on pikes
soon enough
L32[01:06:06] <Izzy> I envy your
optimism.
L33[01:06:22] <Izzy> Something will change
but I doubt it will be that cathartic.
L34[01:06:47] <Amanda> Yeah, they'll
just move into the next money laundering scheme
L35[01:06:59] <Izzy> Wonder what GPU-themed
scam will be next
L36[01:11:10] <Amanda> Izzy: I mean, also,
they're also starting to get the bills for the ai
"agents" they're trying to deploy trying over and
over to produce valid json so the "tools" talk to excited
each other. It literally turned out that the Claude thing was just
feeding json parser errors back into the plagerism machine instead
of the machine actually being able to use these
"tools"
L37[01:12:28] <Amanda> Burning thought so
many billed tokens just so the sloperators can ask about the
weather
L38[01:13:55] <Amanda> Anyways, I've
been up since 04-0500, time for Zzmwss
L39[01:14:11] <Izzy> sleeb well!
L40[01:14:26] *
Amanda pawhugs Elfi close, meows about the dream she can just
barely not remember
L41[01:14:32] <Amanda> Night girls
L42[01:35:21] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> It's a version in legal limbo that
realistically you should…
L43[01:35:21] <Renno>
Legal limbo? Where's the lawsuit?
<Renno>
Legal limbo? Where's the lawsuit?L44[01:36:32] <SoraFirestorm> The copyright status of
LLM-generated code is - to put it shortly and gently - not well
defined
<SoraFirestorm> The copyright status of
LLM-generated code is - to put it shortly and gently - not well
definedL45[01:36:58] <Renno> It
does also appear that quite a large portion of the code is actually
the original code, and that there were actually only specific edits
made to the Scala code, which is still mostly preserved, in order
to make it compatible with Neoforge and later newer Minecraft
conventions.
<Renno> It
does also appear that quite a large portion of the code is actually
the original code, and that there were actually only specific edits
made to the Scala code, which is still mostly preserved, in order
to make it compatible with Neoforge and later newer Minecraft
conventions.L46[01:37:21] <SoraFirestorm> You do not know where the
LLM lifed code, therefore you do not know the copyright license
attached to said code
<SoraFirestorm> You do not know where the
LLM lifed code, therefore you do not know the copyright license
attached to said codeL47[01:37:23] <Renno> And
it does appear that this is precisely why there the persistence bug
is still persistent, because the original code is still largely
preserved.
<Renno> And
it does appear that this is precisely why there the persistence bug
is still persistent, because the original code is still largely
preserved.L48[01:37:32] <SoraFirestorm> * lifted
<SoraFirestorm> * liftedL49[01:37:47] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> The copyright status of LLM-generated code
is - to put it s…
L50[01:37:47] <Renno>
so?
<Renno>
so?L51[01:37:55] <SoraFirestorm> What do you mean
'so'?
<SoraFirestorm> What do you mean
'so'?L52[01:37:59] <Renno>
Pragmatically that means basically nothing
<Renno>
Pragmatically that means basically nothingL53[01:38:12] <SoraFirestorm> LLM output must be defacto
considered to be tainted and unusable
<SoraFirestorm> LLM output must be defacto
considered to be tainted and unusableL54[01:38:22] <Renno>
That's a pretty wild opinion
<Renno>
That's a pretty wild opinionL55[01:38:38] <Izzy> it's either
public domain, so you can't license it, or it's not yours
to license
L56[01:39:03] <Renno> I
haven't checked the license for open computers, but if I do
recall, it's MIT licensed. And if I do recall, doesn't
that typically mean that you just need to extend the MIT license to
any continuation of that thing?
<Renno> I
haven't checked the license for open computers, but if I do
recall, it's MIT licensed. And if I do recall, doesn't
that typically mean that you just need to extend the MIT license to
any continuation of that thing?L57[01:41:11] <SoraFirestorm> Well what if the code that
the LLM lifts is GPL?
<SoraFirestorm> Well what if the code that
the LLM lifts is GPL?L58[01:41:25] <SoraFirestorm> You can't license
that under MIT, because GPL requires like-license
<SoraFirestorm> You can't license
that under MIT, because GPL requires like-licenseL59[01:41:47] <SoraFirestorm> And in general, you
can't know where LLM-generated code comes from, practically by
design
<SoraFirestorm> And in general, you
can't know where LLM-generated code comes from, practically by
designL60[01:41:53] <SoraFirestorm> the only safe thing to do
is to not use it
<SoraFirestorm> the only safe thing to do
is to not use itL61[01:42:20] <Renno> So
then have it write the code. You go in and you rewrite the code
that it wrote so that it's functionally equivalent, but
it's still written by you by the end of the day? I feel that
most, if not all, of this is ultimately pointless. I don't
really understand the kvetch or the the friction here. It's an
open source Minecraft mod. I
<Renno> So
then have it write the code. You go in and you rewrite the code
that it wrote so that it's functionally equivalent, but
it's still written by you by the end of the day? I feel that
most, if not all, of this is ultimately pointless. I don't
really understand the kvetch or the the friction here. It's an
open source Minecraft mod. IL62[01:42:20] <Corded> think that to the
scope of what we're talking about, that this legal status and
all of this other things are really nonfactors
L63[01:42:41] <SoraFirestorm> Didn't realize it was
"wild" to care about where code comes from
<SoraFirestorm> Didn't realize it was
"wild" to care about where code comes fromL64[01:43:02] <Renno>
Well, I think that in context, it is a wild opinion because
we're not talking about the code to launch a rocket to the
moon. We're talking about a Minecraft mod that is explicitly
open source
<Renno>
Well, I think that in context, it is a wild opinion because
we're not talking about the code to launch a rocket to the
moon. We're talking about a Minecraft mod that is explicitly
open sourceL65[01:43:23] <Corded> > <Renno>
So then have it write the code. You go in and you rewrite t…
L66[01:43:24] <SoraFirestorm> Not likely to be
sufficiently clean-room, especially if you want to be sure you
don't have tainted code
<SoraFirestorm> Not likely to be
sufficiently clean-room, especially if you want to be sure you
don't have tainted codeL67[01:43:29] <Izzy> Could also be
source-visible but not FOSS and then you're really in the
shit.
L68[01:43:55] <SoraFirestorm> Or something completely
intended to be proprietary that somehow ended up in the training
data anyways
<SoraFirestorm> Or something completely
intended to be proprietary that somehow ended up in the training
data anywaysL69[01:44:28] <SoraFirestorm> just because an LLM
regurgitated it back to you does not inherently absolve you of
responsibility
<SoraFirestorm> just because an LLM
regurgitated it back to you does not inherently absolve you of
responsibilityL70[01:44:39] <SoraFirestorm> +of following the
license
<SoraFirestorm> +of following the
licenseL71[01:44:46] <SoraFirestorm> the only winning move is
not to play
<SoraFirestorm> the only winning move is
not to playL72[01:44:52] <Renno>
That basically extends the crime of the company that stole the
data, which in this case would be the AI companies, to the then
customers. Is that what you're saying?
<Renno>
That basically extends the crime of the company that stole the
data, which in this case would be the AI companies, to the then
customers. Is that what you're saying?L73[01:45:22] <SoraFirestorm> because it's
essentially complicit, yeah basically
<SoraFirestorm> because it's
essentially complicit, yeah basicallyL74[01:45:49] <Renno> I
highly disagree
<Renno> I
highly disagreeL75[01:46:32] <Renno> If
you were to put tires on your car from this new company that come
to find out years later, they effectively did some industrial
espionage and stole the process from another tire company on how to
make tires better or how to make their own specific kind of tires
for themselves and then sell it as a business, are you then
compliant or
<Renno> If
you were to put tires on your car from this new company that come
to find out years later, they effectively did some industrial
espionage and stole the process from another tire company on how to
make tires better or how to make their own specific kind of tires
for themselves and then sell it as a business, are you then
compliant orL76[01:46:32] <Corded> in some way
complicit in their crime or simply being a consumer of their
product, even though you did not necessarily know that that was the
case ahead of time? I think not
L77[01:47:52] <SoraFirestorm> I don't feel like
that's the same situation but fine, you have a point
<SoraFirestorm> I don't feel like
that's the same situation but fine, you have a pointL78[01:47:56] <Renno> I
think that that is ultimately a preposterous precedent to even
assume because that is such an onset of implications on such a
scale that is simply not only ridiculous but frankly unenforceable.
The same applies to this
<Renno> I
think that that is ultimately a preposterous precedent to even
assume because that is such an onset of implications on such a
scale that is simply not only ridiculous but frankly unenforceable.
The same applies to thisL79[01:48:23] <Izzy> Say you got a disk
from a guy, right. It has source code on it. You think it's
neat. You don't question where it comes from, but you sell the
resulting program.
L80[01:49:10] <Renno>
Well, in that scenario, Izzy, the you in question would not be you
or me individuals. The you in that scenario is literally Anthropic
or OpenAI or any of these other AI companies
<Renno>
Well, in that scenario, Izzy, the you in question would not be you
or me individuals. The you in that scenario is literally Anthropic
or OpenAI or any of these other AI companiesL81[01:49:35] <Izzy> Yes. The guy is your
LLM provider, and you're trafficking in stolen goods.
L82[01:49:39] <Renno>
Because you do have to remember here that the code generated is not
a one-for-one example. It is rarely ever exactly the same. And in
many cases, it's meaningfully and materially different in
implementation from the actual source code that it was trained
on.
<Renno>
Because you do have to remember here that the code generated is not
a one-for-one example. It is rarely ever exactly the same. And in
many cases, it's meaningfully and materially different in
implementation from the actual source code that it was trained
on.L83[01:49:53] <SoraFirestorm> Prove it
<SoraFirestorm> Prove itL84[01:50:17] <Renno>
yea?
<Renno>
yea?L85[01:50:36] <Renno> so
the onus proof is on who here exactly?
<Renno> so
the onus proof is on who here exactly?L86[01:51:26] <Renno>
I'm pretty sure that when I have, for example, what I just did
earlier, when I have Deep Seek V4 Flash write its own extension for
itself to add to its own system prompt, that that code was never
used anywhere before, that it was never once created anywhere
prior. I know that for a fact. because it literally doesn't
exist except for that
<Renno>
I'm pretty sure that when I have, for example, what I just did
earlier, when I have Deep Seek V4 Flash write its own extension for
itself to add to its own system prompt, that that code was never
used anywhere before, that it was never once created anywhere
prior. I know that for a fact. because it literally doesn't
exist except for thatL87[01:51:26] <Corded> purpose
L88[01:52:17] <SoraFirestorm> LLMs don't synthesize
like that
<SoraFirestorm> LLMs don't synthesize
like thatL89[01:52:19] <Renno>
These algorithms are literally seeded RNG machines. Some parts of
their code, maybe individual lines, could potentially be
repetitions of exact lines in the training data. But to act as
though a custom-made piece of code generated by an AI is exactly
the same as the source training data is insane.
<Renno>
These algorithms are literally seeded RNG machines. Some parts of
their code, maybe individual lines, could potentially be
repetitions of exact lines in the training data. But to act as
though a custom-made piece of code generated by an AI is exactly
the same as the source training data is insane.L90[01:52:44] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> LLMs don't synthesize like that
L91[01:52:44] <Renno>
Synthesize like what?
<Renno>
Synthesize like what?L92[01:53:02] <SoraFirestorm> LLMs don't make new
data from scratch
<SoraFirestorm> LLMs don't make new
data from scratchL93[01:53:12] <Renno>
Except they do.
<Renno>
Except they do.L94[01:53:15] <Renno>
like actually
<Renno>
like actuallyL95[01:53:16] <Renno>
they do
<Renno>
they doL96[01:53:27] <SoraFirestorm> like actually they
don't
<SoraFirestorm> like actually they
don'tL97[01:53:29] <Renno>
It's literally generative
<Renno>
It's literally generativeL98[01:54:16] <Renno> If
they weren't generative and then that would mean that
they're deterministic in the way that you're describing,
that means that all code that they write has already been written
once before and therefore that means that once before, based on my
example, someone somewhere had written the code for that extension
before the model had even
<Renno> If
they weren't generative and then that would mean that
they're deterministic in the way that you're describing,
that means that all code that they write has already been written
once before and therefore that means that once before, based on my
example, someone somewhere had written the code for that extension
before the model had evenL99[01:54:17] <Corded> existed, before the
harness had even existed.
L100[01:54:27] <SoraFirestorm> they can only (re)combine
data already in the training set
<SoraFirestorm> they can only (re)combine
data already in the training setL101[01:54:38] <Renno>
Correct. That's literally the definition of creating new
data
<Renno>
Correct. That's literally the definition of creating new
dataL102[01:54:55] <Renno>
Every word, every sentence, every thought you have is a
recombination of the same base primitives of the alphabet and
numerical characters
<Renno>
Every word, every sentence, every thought you have is a
recombination of the same base primitives of the alphabet and
numerical charactersL103[01:55:03] <SoraFirestorm> Not in the copyright
'derivative works' sense it's not
<SoraFirestorm> Not in the copyright
'derivative works' sense it's notL104[01:56:07] <SoraFirestorm> If an LLM is 'trained
on' code that already exists, and (re)combines that code
together to make new code
<SoraFirestorm> If an LLM is 'trained
on' code that already exists, and (re)combines that code
together to make new codeL105[01:56:16] <SoraFirestorm> That is the textbook
definition of derivative work
<SoraFirestorm> That is the textbook
definition of derivative workL106[01:56:48] <Renno> You
do not need permission if the original work is old enough to be in
the public domain
<Renno> You
do not need permission if the original work is old enough to be in
the public domainL107[01:57:01] <Izzy> Good thing
they're only training on public domain works, then!
Wait.
L108[01:57:13] <SoraFirestorm> You are assuming that they
are only training on PD material
<SoraFirestorm> You are assuming that they
are only training on PD materialL109[01:57:17] <Renno> No,
they aren't. That much is now obvious. However, to act as if
it is simply one or the other is not true
<Renno> No,
they aren't. That much is now obvious. However, to act as if
it is simply one or the other is not trueL110[01:57:50] <Renno>
However, the public domain is very, very, very large and
undoubtedly quite a large quantity of their training data is public
domain.
<Renno>
However, the public domain is very, very, very large and
undoubtedly quite a large quantity of their training data is public
domain.L111[01:58:07] <SoraFirestorm> But that doesn't
matter if any of their training data isn't
<SoraFirestorm> But that doesn't
matter if any of their training data isn'tL112[01:58:36] <SoraFirestorm> The pool has copyright
material in it, so for certain uses, it is poison
<SoraFirestorm> The pool has copyright
material in it, so for certain uses, it is poisonL113[01:58:53] <SoraFirestorm> * copyrighted
<SoraFirestorm> * copyrightedL114[01:59:09] <SoraFirestorm> because you can't
even do a simple thing like ask 'where did this code come
from?'
<SoraFirestorm> because you can't
even do a simple thing like ask 'where did this code come
from?'L115[01:59:25] <Renno>
they also can't prove that you used AI, either
<Renno>
they also can't prove that you used AI, eitherL116[01:59:26] <SoraFirestorm> it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE
to do your due diligence with LLM-generated anything!
<SoraFirestorm> it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE
to do your due diligence with LLM-generated anything!L117[01:59:36] <SoraFirestorm> * *anything!*
<SoraFirestorm> * *anything!*L118[01:59:53] <SoraFirestorm> and THAT is the
problem!
<SoraFirestorm> and THAT is the
problem!L119[02:00:49] <Renno> I
don't really understand how this informs your position
whatsoever, especially considering the fact that it's not
explicitly illegal. And not only that, it's literally
impossible to enforce because you can't prove what is and is
not written by AI. And that even if you could, there is so much
code that you would have to do an audit to
<Renno> I
don't really understand how this informs your position
whatsoever, especially considering the fact that it's not
explicitly illegal. And not only that, it's literally
impossible to enforce because you can't prove what is and is
not written by AI. And that even if you could, there is so much
code that you would have to do an audit toL120[02:00:49] <Corded> such an extent
that it would take you a thousand years. So what exactly is the
point of this? Poison (as you say) or not, effectively it
doesn't matter.
L121[02:01:57] <SoraFirestorm> Using a previous example,
using GPL code in an MIT project and continuing to license the
entire thing as MIT is literally copyright infringement aka
illegal
<SoraFirestorm> Using a previous example,
using GPL code in an MIT project and continuing to license the
entire thing as MIT is literally copyright infringement aka
illegalL122[02:02:21] <Renno> So,
rewrite the code. Copy it, but don't copy it. Copy the
functionality, but do your own implementation
<Renno> So,
rewrite the code. Copy it, but don't copy it. Copy the
functionality, but do your own implementationL123[02:03:42] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> Not likely to be sufficiently clean-room,
especially if you…
L124[02:03:42] <SoraFirestorm> That's probably not
good enough for clean room law, though I don't know for sure
because IANAL
<SoraFirestorm> That's probably not
good enough for clean room law, though I don't know for sure
because IANALL125[02:03:47] <SoraFirestorm> I wouldn't be willing
to take that chance
<SoraFirestorm> I wouldn't be willing
to take that chanceL126[02:04:33] <Renno> To
some extent, it is a little refreshing to see so many people with
such reverence for the law. But, you know, at this rate, in this
specific context related to the open computers court, you're
basically arguing to self-litigate yourself out of having open
computers. At what point are you just someone trying to play
minecraft?
<Renno> To
some extent, it is a little refreshing to see so many people with
such reverence for the law. But, you know, at this rate, in this
specific context related to the open computers court, you're
basically arguing to self-litigate yourself out of having open
computers. At what point are you just someone trying to play
minecraft?L127[02:04:49] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> I wouldn't be willing to take that
chance
L128[02:04:49] <Renno>
Chance of what? You think someone will SUE YOU for porting
OC?
<Renno>
Chance of what? You think someone will SUE YOU for porting
OC?L130[02:06:54] <Renno> I
find that to be ridiculous, but you do you ig
<Renno> I
find that to be ridiculous, but you do you igL131[02:16:21] <��>
wow...
<��>
wow...L132[02:16:21] <��> i
ltierally just joined and I'm already reading something batsht
retarded
<��> i
ltierally just joined and I'm already reading something batsht
retardedL133[02:17:11] <��> *
literally
<��> *
literallyL134[02:19:04] <��> Copy
coding has been around for decades before AI..
<��> Copy
coding has been around for decades before AI..L135[02:19:05] <��> Even
google forks and deploys opensource projects as subdomains
<��> Even
google forks and deploys opensource projects as subdomainsL136[02:19:30] <��> code
wiki google is deepwiki
<��> code
wiki google is deepwikiL138[02:20:11] <unitazer>
useless argument anyways because clanker companies will bribe
politicians to make it legal anyways
<unitazer>
useless argument anyways because clanker companies will bribe
politicians to make it legal anywaysL139[02:20:18] <unitazer>
theyve already done that iirc
<unitazer>
theyve already done that iircL140[02:20:47] <Izzy> important to
remember that the law will nonetheless be deployed against those
that aren't in the in-group
L141[02:21:15] <Izzy> what's the
phrase, group that the law binds but does not protect, and group
that the law protects but does not bind
L142[02:21:24] <unitazer>
whatever comes out of an llm is owned by whoever owns the llm, but
clod and other clankers write it into their tos that whatever slop
you get is yours or something close to that
<unitazer>
whatever comes out of an llm is owned by whoever owns the llm, but
clod and other clankers write it into their tos that whatever slop
you get is yours or something close to thatL143[02:21:41] <unitazer>
so you can go cry about it if you dont like being in the training
data for them
<unitazer>
so you can go cry about it if you dont like being in the training
data for themL144[02:21:46] <unitazer>
either that on dont use the internet
<unitazer>
either that on dont use the internetL145[02:24:12] <��> Even
with MIT license?
<��> Even
with MIT license?L146[03:15:42] <Corded> >
<Hawk777> Michiyo, I am curious, the 1.21 OC you were
showing off, do…
L147[03:15:43] <Michiyo>
It should yes. It's 1.12 with enough changes to get it running
in 1.21 the OC logic is largely unchanged, it's the MC side
that's vastly different
<Michiyo>
It should yes. It's 1.12 with enough changes to get it running
in 1.21 the OC logic is largely unchanged, it's the MC side
that's vastly differentL148[03:48:07] <Hawk777> Nice! Perhaps
when it’s more stable I will look into that.
L149[03:59:05] <SpiderEveryOS> %tonkout
<SpiderEveryOS> %tonkoutL150[03:59:06] <MichiBot> Gadsbudlikins!
SpiderEveryOS! You beat Forecaster's previous record of 3
hours, 21 minutes and 50 seconds (By 3 hours, 56 minutes and 57
seconds)! I hope you're happy!
L151[03:59:07] <MichiBot> SpiderEveryOS
has stolen the tonkout! Tonk has been reset! They gained 0.007 tonk
points! plus 0.006 bonus points for consecutive hours! (Reduced to
50% because stealing) Current score: 2.5350006. Position #1
L152[04:00:02] <Michiyo>
I'm considering rolling OpenPrinters into OC... but
shrug
<Michiyo>
I'm considering rolling OpenPrinters into OC... but
shrugL153[04:00:42] <SoraFirestorm> Honestly I probably would
in your shoes
<SoraFirestorm> Honestly I probably would
in your shoesL154[04:01:21] <SoraFirestorm> ComputerCraft has a
useless printer, OpenComputers should too :P
<SoraFirestorm> ComputerCraft has a
useless printer, OpenComputers should too :PL155[04:01:35] <Michiyo>
I'm currently ripping out as MUCH as the original port as I
can... so many WTFs
<Michiyo>
I'm currently ripping out as MUCH as the original port as I
can... so many WTFsL156[04:02:38] <SoraFirestorm> Gotta love LLM spaghetti
lol
<SoraFirestorm> Gotta love LLM spaghetti
lolL157[04:02:44] <Michiyo>
Oh 100%
<Michiyo>
Oh 100%L158[04:03:34] <SoraFirestorm> Are you planning on
keeping the T4 items introduced here or nah?
<SoraFirestorm> Are you planning on
keeping the T4 items introduced here or nah?L159[04:04:56] <Michiyo>
IDK.... They're kinda neat but I'm not sure if they feel
like the spirit of the original.
<Michiyo>
IDK.... They're kinda neat but I'm not sure if they feel
like the spirit of the original.L160[04:05:27] <Michiyo> I
know Vex did the t3.5 RAM in Computronics, but again it was an
addon sooo
<Michiyo> I
know Vex did the t3.5 RAM in Computronics, but again it was an
addon soooL161[04:06:28] <SoraFirestorm> What about the new screens
(the flat ones and the holographic ones)?
<SoraFirestorm> What about the new screens
(the flat ones and the holographic ones)?L162[04:07:02] <Michiyo>
BTW https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533325225867870288/1785643621829-c9da5a59f94c.png
<Michiyo>
BTW https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533325225867870288/1785643621829-c9da5a59f94c.pngL163[04:08:16] <Michiyo> I
like the holographic screens... Honestly OpenScreens was one of the
addons I ALWAYS installed when I was playing OC
<Michiyo> I
like the holographic screens... Honestly OpenScreens was one of the
addons I ALWAYS installed when I was playing OCL164[04:11:34] <SoraFirestorm> haha cool love it
<SoraFirestorm> haha cool love itL165[04:12:23] <Corded> >
<Michiyo> I like the holographic screens... Honestly
OpenScreens was …
L166[04:12:24] <SoraFirestorm> I looked it up just now
and... yeah, these are those
<SoraFirestorm> I looked it up just now
and... yeah, these are thoseL167[04:13:13] <Michiyo>
Yep they're licensed MIT, I'm going to open an issue, see
if the original dev cares if they're rolled into the 1.21.1
port, or if they want to update the mod themselves.
<Michiyo>
Yep they're licensed MIT, I'm going to open an issue, see
if the original dev cares if they're rolled into the 1.21.1
port, or if they want to update the mod themselves.L168[04:15:14] <SoraFirestorm> didn't occur to me
that it was already a mod
<SoraFirestorm> didn't occur to me
that it was already a modL169[04:17:43] <Michiyo>
https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533327916811944036/1785644263381-713d9e5a1564.png
<Michiyo>
https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533327916811944036/1785644263381-713d9e5a1564.pngL170[04:18:17] <Michiyo>
So yeah I'll keep them, they're neat to have, and worst
case, folks just don't use it.
<Michiyo>
So yeah I'll keep them, they're neat to have, and worst
case, folks just don't use it.L171[04:19:04] <SpiderEveryOS> Me and some other people
tried bringing oc to newer minecraft before but didn't have
time since we got other projects
<SpiderEveryOS> Me and some other people
tried bringing oc to newer minecraft before but didn't have
time since we got other projectsL172[04:19:19] <Michiyo>
Well, 1.21.1 seems to be working pretty well so far
<Michiyo>
Well, 1.21.1 seems to be working pretty well so farL173[04:19:52] <Forecaster> I love how in this long
discussion about LLMs nobody brought up any of the various other
reasons to not like them
<Forecaster> I love how in this long
discussion about LLMs nobody brought up any of the various other
reasons to not like themL174[04:20:11] <Forecaster> It's not like
"where the code comes from" is the only issue
<Forecaster> It's not like
"where the code comes from" is the only issueL175[04:20:41] <SoraFirestorm> I was trying so hard not
to argue about GenAI that I tried to end it as gracefully as
possible as quickly as possible
<SoraFirestorm> I was trying so hard not
to argue about GenAI that I tried to end it as gracefully as
possible as quickly as possibleL176[04:20:57] <SoraFirestorm> There are definitely other
reasons to not like them, I just kept them to myself
<SoraFirestorm> There are definitely other
reasons to not like them, I just kept them to myselfL177[04:25:38] <Forecaster> The other day I was offered a
DLL as a fix for something. It had been tainted by LLM.
<Forecaster> The other day I was offered a
DLL as a fix for something. It had been tainted by LLM.L178[04:25:38] <Forecaster> When I said I wouldn't
touch it because of that I got a couple of paragraphs of rant about
how "DirectX 11 is complicated"
<Forecaster> When I said I wouldn't
touch it because of that I got a couple of paragraphs of rant about
how "DirectX 11 is complicated"L179[04:25:38] <Forecaster> I just didn't
respond
<Forecaster> I just didn't
respondL180[05:04:32] <Forecaster> %tonk
<Forecaster> %tonkL181[05:04:33] <MichiBot> Yikes!
Forecaster! You beat SpiderEveryOS's previous record of
<0 (By 1 hour, 5 minutes and 26 seconds)! I hope you're
happy!
L182[05:04:34] <MichiBot>
Forecaster's new record is 1 hour, 5 minutes and 26 seconds!
Forecaster also gained 0.00109 tonk points for stealing the tonk.
Position #2. Need 0.2222812 more points to pass
SpiderEveryOS!
L183[05:50:32] <Michiyo>
I'm really not a fan of Scala... lol
<Michiyo>
I'm really not a fan of Scala... lolL184[05:52:37] <Hawk777> Probably a huge
amount of work to port it to a different language though…
L185[05:54:38] <Michiyo>
Yeah
<Michiyo>
YeahL186[05:57:13] <Forecaster> Noo I'm sure you'll
have it done in an afternoon
<Forecaster> Noo I'm sure you'll
have it done in an afternoonL187[05:57:25] <Forecaster> ( +- a year )
<Forecaster> ( +- a year )L188[06:48:45] <Forecaster> %tonkout
<Forecaster> %tonkoutL189[06:48:47] <MichiBot> Dogast!
Forecaster! You beat your own previous record of 1 hour, 5 minutes
and 26 seconds (By 38 minutes and 47 seconds)! I hope you're
happy!
L190[06:48:48] <MichiBot> Forecaster has
tonked out! Tonk has been reset! They gained 0.001 tonk points!
Current score: 2.3137194, Position #2 Need 0.2212812 more points to
pass SpiderEveryOS!
L191[06:59:53] *** Joins: Vexatos
(~Vexatos@2001:4647:af75:0:bb33:d464:9e18:52bb) Vexatos
L192[06:59:53]
zsh sets mode: +v on Vexatos
L193[07:01:56] <Corded> >
<Renno> I think that's absolutely what's stopping
it. I've seen at …
L194[07:01:57] <asie> Yes,
and I think vibe coding is part of why that is the case. If the
cost of producing code is lower than the cost of socializing, it is
more "efficient" for people to go their own way with
their own forks that serve their personalized needs, than to
collaborate with others to build something that benefits more
people. I don't think it's
<asie> Yes,
and I think vibe coding is part of why that is the case. If the
cost of producing code is lower than the cost of socializing, it is
more "efficient" for people to go their own way with
their own forks that serve their personalized needs, than to
collaborate with others to build something that benefits more
people. I don't think it'sL195[07:01:57] <Corded> an issue exclusive
to vibe coding, but it, as an LLM would say, "changes the
calculus".
L196[07:02:48] <Corded> >
<Michiyo> BTW
L197[07:02:49] <Renno>
dude, that looks cool. imagine if you could place a tablet on a
surface
<Renno>
dude, that looks cool. imagine if you could place a tablet on a
surfaceL198[07:02:59] <asie>
There's a good reason, IMO, why two of the three OC update
attempts I'm aware of appeared after Claude and Codex became
mainstream
<asie>
There's a good reason, IMO, why two of the three OC update
attempts I'm aware of appeared after Claude and Codex became
mainstreamL199[07:03:45] <asie> Part
of that is the fact nobody from the official development team was
left to steward efforts, yes, but the first attempt did reach out
to us for advice, and I helped however much I could. The other two
efforts were discovered only because I happened to run into them in
places which were not official spaces for the project
<asie> Part
of that is the fact nobody from the official development team was
left to steward efforts, yes, but the first attempt did reach out
to us for advice, and I helped however much I could. The other two
efforts were discovered only because I happened to run into them in
places which were not official spaces for the projectL200[07:03:53] <asie>
Well, I brought up one here, and then the other revealed
itself.
<asie>
Well, I brought up one here, and then the other revealed
itself.L201[07:03:59] <asie> If I
recall correctly.
<asie> If I
recall correctly.L202[07:04:17] <asie> The
first attempt was also written in pre-Claude/Codex days. I'm
talking about the 1.16.5 port that languished in our pull
requests.
<asie> The
first attempt was also written in pre-Claude/Codex days. I'm
talking about the 1.16.5 port that languished in our pull
requests.L203[07:04:36] <SoraFirestorm> I still suspect it's
not enough people coordinating at the same time, blissfully unaware
of the existence of others
<SoraFirestorm> I still suspect it's
not enough people coordinating at the same time, blissfully unaware
of the existence of othersL204[07:04:37] <asie> The
second is OC:CE, and there was also a third one but I'm not
sure if it released any code. Those were done with heavy
utilization of LLM technology
<asie> The
second is OC:CE, and there was also a third one but I'm not
sure if it released any code. Those were done with heavy
utilization of LLM technologyL205[07:04:50] <asie> as
far as I'm aware
<asie> as
far as I'm awareL206[07:05:10] <SoraFirestorm> The third one: are you
talking about the one by NorthwesternDevelopment?
<SoraFirestorm> The third one: are you
talking about the one by NorthwesternDevelopment?L207[07:05:18] <asie>
Maybe. I don't remember. I don't pay much attention to OC
these days
<asie>
Maybe. I don't remember. I don't pay much attention to OC
these daysL208[07:05:20] <Corded> > <asie>
Yes, and I think vibe coding is part of why that is the cas…
L209[07:05:21] <Renno> yea
I mean post AI coming into the scene I could see that for sure.
there were attempts before that and even some afterwards that still
refused to utilize AI
<Renno> yea
I mean post AI coming into the scene I could see that for sure.
there were attempts before that and even some afterwards that still
refused to utilize AIL210[07:05:49] <asie> As
for the copyright issue. I think people need to stop acting like
that argument even works these days. The US seems to be zeroing in
on "training is fair use so long as the copyrighted material
was acquired lawfully", which led us to a world where
Anthropic is destroying books instead of pirating books, because
that's Judge Approved and
<asie> As
for the copyright issue. I think people need to stop acting like
that argument even works these days. The US seems to be zeroing in
on "training is fair use so long as the copyrighted material
was acquired lawfully", which led us to a world where
Anthropic is destroying books instead of pirating books, because
that's Judge Approved andL211[07:05:49] <Corded> the other way
isn't
L212[07:06:11] <SoraFirestorm> I'm just
half-heartedly trying to figure out if the ones you're aware
of are the ones I'm aware of
<SoraFirestorm> I'm just
half-heartedly trying to figure out if the ones you're aware
of are the ones I'm aware ofL213[07:06:31] <asie>
We'll see where the EU goes - probably next year. Other
countries I'm not paying as much attention to, but for example
Ukraine is already working on laws which treat LLM output under sui
generis/database-style copyright regimes
<asie>
We'll see where the EU goes - probably next year. Other
countries I'm not paying as much attention to, but for example
Ukraine is already working on laws which treat LLM output under sui
generis/database-style copyright regimesL214[07:06:55] <SoraFirestorm> It might be fair game to
ingest, but it's not fair game to just regurgitate stripped of
its original source
<SoraFirestorm> It might be fair game to
ingest, but it's not fair game to just regurgitate stripped of
its original sourceL215[07:06:56] <asie> The
US and EU, instead, appear to be zeroing in on "LLM output is,
by itself, not a matter of copyright at all". There may be new
laws passed in the next few years, but I don't expect them to
outlaw LLMs.
<asie> The
US and EU, instead, appear to be zeroing in on "LLM output is,
by itself, not a matter of copyright at all". There may be new
laws passed in the next few years, but I don't expect them to
outlaw LLMs.L216[07:07:26] <asie> The
Polish law scholar whose work on copyright law I follow is also of
the opinion that this all is here to stay, and I'll trust an
educated lawyer on this one
<asie> The
Polish law scholar whose work on copyright law I follow is also of
the opinion that this all is here to stay, and I'll trust an
educated lawyer on this oneL217[07:07:29] <asie> *
one, as I'm not one myself
<asie> *
one, as I'm not one myselfL218[07:07:45] <Corded> > <asie>
The Polish law scholar whose work on copyright law I follow…
L219[07:07:45] <Renno> I
don't think they could get rid of it if they tried tbh
<Renno> I
don't think they could get rid of it if they tried tbhL220[07:07:52] <Renno> but
yea it is definitely here to stay
<Renno> but
yea it is definitely here to stayL221[07:07:56] <Corded> >
<Renno> I don't think they could get rid of it if they
tried tbh
L222[07:07:56] <asie>
Napster was a venture capital funded company which revolutionized
music access
<asie>
Napster was a venture capital funded company which revolutionized
music accessL223[07:07:59] <asie> And
yet, music piracy remains illegal, 25 years on
<asie> And
yet, music piracy remains illegal, 25 years onL224[07:08:02] <asie> So,
you can't know for sure
<asie> So,
you can't know for sureL225[07:08:15] <asie>
+what will happen
<asie>
+what will happenL226[07:08:17] <Renno>
making it illegal and getting rid of it are two different
things
<Renno>
making it illegal and getting rid of it are two different
thingsL227[07:08:22] <SoraFirestorm> Like... the end result of
where we are going is that it's fair game to copyright launder
material through an LLM
<SoraFirestorm> Like... the end result of
where we are going is that it's fair game to copyright launder
material through an LLML228[07:08:37] <asie> From
the perspective of FOSS development, most projects which care about
licensing also care about legality
<asie> From
the perspective of FOSS development, most projects which care about
licensing also care about legalityL229[07:08:44] <SoraFirestorm> I don't exactly have
love of Intellectual Property as a concept but like
<SoraFirestorm> I don't exactly have
love of Intellectual Property as a concept but likeL230[07:08:48] <asie> So,
in the context of a project like OpenComputers, making it illegal
== getting rid of it
<asie> So,
in the context of a project like OpenComputers, making it illegal
== getting rid of itL231[07:08:49] <Renno>
I'm talking about at large, in society
<Renno>
I'm talking about at large, in societyL232[07:08:54] <Renno>
they can make it 'illegal', all they want
<Renno>
they can make it 'illegal', all they wantL233[07:09:04] <Renno> but
short of enforcing it, good luck
<Renno> but
short of enforcing it, good luckL234[07:09:15] <asie>
Either way.
<asie>
Either way.L235[07:09:31] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> I don't exactly have love of
Intellectual Property as a con…
L236[07:09:31] <asie> What
upsets me, and might upset you, is the unfairness of it all
<asie> What
upsets me, and might upset you, is the unfairness of it allL237[07:09:39] <Forecaster> it's going to be a
question about cost in the end I think
<Forecaster> it's going to be a
question about cost in the end I thinkL238[07:09:54] <asie> I
can get in considerable legal trouble for pirating a movie. Yet all
of these companies are making billions by pirating movies. And
books. And websites. And songs.
<asie> I
can get in considerable legal trouble for pirating a movie. Yet all
of these companies are making billions by pirating movies. And
books. And websites. And songs.L239[07:10:03] <asie>
+Like, three movies, for personal use.
<asie>
+Like, three movies, for personal use.L240[07:10:22] <asie>
It's not a new issue - YouTube and Crunchyroll also became
massive companies on the back of piracy - but it is particularly
egregious this time around.
<asie>
It's not a new issue - YouTube and Crunchyroll also became
massive companies on the back of piracy - but it is particularly
egregious this time around.L241[07:10:29] <SoraFirestorm> Like I said, I'm not
a fan of Intellectual Property as a conceptual thing
<SoraFirestorm> Like I said, I'm not
a fan of Intellectual Property as a conceptual thingL242[07:10:46] <SoraFirestorm> and yes, that includes the
horrifically lopsided way the law gets applied and when it
doesn't
<SoraFirestorm> and yes, that includes the
horrifically lopsided way the law gets applied and when it
doesn'tL243[07:10:50] <asie> So
why aren't you supportive of LLMs from a legal angle no less?
They are the one thing most likely to demolish "intellectual
property" as we understand it today
<asie> So
why aren't you supportive of LLMs from a legal angle no less?
They are the one thing most likely to demolish "intellectual
property" as we understand it todayL244[07:10:53] <SoraFirestorm> * ways
<SoraFirestorm> * waysL245[07:11:06] <asie>
Plenty of moral, social, ethical arguments against LLMs - but I
don't think I can square the legal arguments with an anti-IP
mindset
<asie>
Plenty of moral, social, ethical arguments against LLMs - but I
don't think I can square the legal arguments with an anti-IP
mindsetL246[07:11:18] <asie> LLMs
are, in fact, the ultimate realization of the "information
wants to be free" slogan from the infoanarchist circles
<asie> LLMs
are, in fact, the ultimate realization of the "information
wants to be free" slogan from the infoanarchist circlesL247[07:11:21] <SoraFirestorm> oh, I think it's bad
on those other vectors too
<SoraFirestorm> oh, I think it's bad
on those other vectors tooL248[07:12:10] <SoraFirestorm> The angle about it being
probably illegal is mostly about why using LLM code is a bad
idea
<SoraFirestorm> The angle about it being
probably illegal is mostly about why using LLM code is a bad
ideaL249[07:12:35] <asie> The
problem is that actual lawsuits in many of the countries I track
are going towards the "probably legal" direction. It was
a valid argument in 2024, but by 2027-2028 it might not be one.
Unless the laws change
<asie> The
problem is that actual lawsuits in many of the countries I track
are going towards the "probably legal" direction. It was
a valid argument in 2024, but by 2027-2028 it might not be one.
Unless the laws changeL250[07:13:00] <SoraFirestorm> It's definitely been
harmful to society in a number of ways
<SoraFirestorm> It's definitely been
harmful to society in a number of waysL251[07:13:03] <SoraFirestorm> I also like
<SoraFirestorm> I also likeL252[07:13:18] <asie> So I
recommend focusing on the moral arguments you hold. Those are more
subjective, but they are also generally more... real?
<asie> So I
recommend focusing on the moral arguments you hold. Those are more
subjective, but they are also generally more... real?L253[07:13:32] <SoraFirestorm> The thing I don't
like is that I don't like how we as a society are training and
using the models
<SoraFirestorm> The thing I don't
like is that I don't like how we as a society are training and
using the modelsL254[07:13:36] <SoraFirestorm> as opposed to the
technology itself
<SoraFirestorm> as opposed to the
technology itselfL255[07:13:44] <asie> I
mean, yeah, hating a mathematical matrix is a preposterous
idea
<asie> I
mean, yeah, hating a mathematical matrix is a preposterous
ideaL256[07:14:00] <asie> I
dislike LLMs on a number of axes. The fact they work at all feels,
in a way, insulting
<asie> I
dislike LLMs on a number of axes. The fact they work at all feels,
in a way, insultingL257[07:14:01] <SoraFirestorm> You're smart enough
to know there's a difference
<SoraFirestorm> You're smart enough
to know there's a differenceL258[07:14:39] <SoraFirestorm> A lot of people seem to
not understand the distinction there
<SoraFirestorm> A lot of people seem to
not understand the distinction thereL259[07:15:27] <SoraFirestorm> And it's mostly
frustration for me that it's like
<SoraFirestorm> And it's mostly
frustration for me that it's likeL260[07:15:28] <asie>
Because social media is overran by what I cheekily call "vibe
ethics". People are flooded with so many social causes that
they don't really have time for nuance, plus the nuance is
honestly irrelevant
<asie>
Because social media is overran by what I cheekily call "vibe
ethics". People are flooded with so many social causes that
they don't really have time for nuance, plus the nuance is
honestly irrelevantL261[07:15:45] <asie>
It's like arguing cryptocurrency is actually good because
there's a few fun research projects buried in the sea of
grifting and conmannery and inefficiency and weird
speculation
<asie>
It's like arguing cryptocurrency is actually good because
there's a few fun research projects buried in the sea of
grifting and conmannery and inefficiency and weird
speculationL262[07:15:53] <asie>
Like, sure, they exist, but at the grand scale *it doesn't
really matter8
<asie>
Like, sure, they exist, but at the grand scale *it doesn't
really matter8L263[07:15:55] <asie> *
matter*
<asie> *
matter*L264[07:16:03] <SoraFirestorm> LLMs could be fine and I
could not care about them or whatever
<SoraFirestorm> LLMs could be fine and I
could not care about them or whateverL265[07:16:31] <SoraFirestorm> but no, we have to be
training unethically, using output data probably illegally, causing
even more societal stress in the process, etc etc etc
<SoraFirestorm> but no, we have to be
training unethically, using output data probably illegally, causing
even more societal stress in the process, etc etc etcL266[07:16:32] <Forecaster> I can't believe you
would say that, won't anyone think about the poor
cryptobros?!
<Forecaster> I can't believe you
would say that, won't anyone think about the poor
cryptobros?!L267[07:16:36] <asie>
Personally, I just decided to raise the "why the fuck do my
hobbies have to be productive or efficient?" card. It's
my hobby. I don't like LLMs. So I won't use them.
<asie>
Personally, I just decided to raise the "why the fuck do my
hobbies have to be productive or efficient?" card. It's
my hobby. I don't like LLMs. So I won't use them.L268[07:17:01] <asie> In
my own projects, I get the say, people can fork it if they
don't like it. You know, the same argument Linus Torvalds
used.
<asie> In
my own projects, I get the say, people can fork it if they
don't like it. You know, the same argument Linus Torvalds
used.L269[07:17:31] <asie> But
for OC that doesn't matter either as the OC upstream is
dead
<asie> But
for OC that doesn't matter either as the OC upstream is
deadL270[07:18:10] <asie>
I'm not sure how long this stance will last, though. A lot of
the projects I do care about are seeing positive returns from LLM
usage, at least in terms of short term efficiency
<asie>
I'm not sure how long this stance will last, though. A lot of
the projects I do care about are seeing positive returns from LLM
usage, at least in terms of short term efficiencyL271[07:18:36] <Forecaster> the question is how long
these companies will survive
<Forecaster> the question is how long
these companies will surviveL272[07:18:45] <Forecaster> haven't a few of them
already gone under or are in trouble
<Forecaster> haven't a few of them
already gone under or are in troubleL273[07:18:52] <asie> Yeah
but that's any bubble isn't it?
<asie> Yeah
but that's any bubble isn't it?L274[07:19:00] <asie>
There's an investment frenzy, most companies die, a few
survive
<asie>
There's an investment frenzy, most companies die, a few
surviveL275[07:19:11] <SoraFirestorm> I mean... arguably
we're already done irreparable damage
<SoraFirestorm> I mean... arguably
we're already done irreparable damageL276[07:19:14] <SoraFirestorm> ie look at rsync
<SoraFirestorm> ie look at rsyncL277[07:19:20] <Renno>
cost is becoming less of an issue as of late since Chinas efforts
have started to pay off
<Renno>
cost is becoming less of an issue as of late since Chinas efforts
have started to pay offL278[07:19:27] <asie>
people bring up rsync but they never bring up the various
incredible fuckups from the pre-LLM era
<asie>
people bring up rsync but they never bring up the various
incredible fuckups from the pre-LLM eraL279[07:19:51] <asie> like
CVE-2008-0166, or the time Steam accidentally wiped hard drives in
a rare edge case
<asie> like
CVE-2008-0166, or the time Steam accidentally wiped hard drives in
a rare edge caseL280[07:20:31] <Corded> > <asie>
I'm not sure how long this stance will last, though. A lot
…
L281[07:20:32] <Renno> why
the emphasis on short term? is there some indication that there is
reason to be skeptical of the efficiency gains in a longer time
scale?
<Renno> why
the emphasis on short term? is there some indication that there is
reason to be skeptical of the efficiency gains in a longer time
scale?L282[07:20:48] <asie> I am
worried about overreliance. Much like people were worried about the
overreliance on Wikipedia twenty odd years ago.
<asie> I am
worried about overreliance. Much like people were worried about the
overreliance on Wikipedia twenty odd years ago.L283[07:20:57] <Renno> the
trend seems to be that they are only improving in
effectiveness
<Renno> the
trend seems to be that they are only improving in
effectivenessL284[07:21:06] <Renno>
except for googles models... lol
<Renno>
except for googles models... lolL285[07:21:09] <asie> We,
as an industry, already have a problem where many old (20+ years)
codebases are poorly understood by their current maintainers, I do
not think LLMs will make this problem better
<asie> We,
as an industry, already have a problem where many old (20+ years)
codebases are poorly understood by their current maintainers, I do
not think LLMs will make this problem betterL286[07:21:12] <Corded> > <asie>
I am worried about overreliance. Much like people were worr…
L287[07:21:12] <SoraFirestorm> Overreliance is already
happening, I expected it first hand
<SoraFirestorm> Overreliance is already
happening, I expected it first handL288[07:21:20] <SoraFirestorm> * experienced
<SoraFirestorm> * experiencedL289[07:21:48] <asie> As
it's a case of missing information, not inferrable
information. And if we give too much of our code maintenance to
LLMs, we might end up with a mix of hallucinated and correct
information, which is arguably even worse, as it shifts you from
"known unknowns" (no docs) to "unknown
unknowns" (untrustworthy docs)
<asie> As
it's a case of missing information, not inferrable
information. And if we give too much of our code maintenance to
LLMs, we might end up with a mix of hallucinated and correct
information, which is arguably even worse, as it shifts you from
"known unknowns" (no docs) to "unknown
unknowns" (untrustworthy docs)L290[07:22:07] <asie> I
think LLMs will accelerate the issue of code debt/code rot in this
way. Thus my concern about long term gains.
<asie> I
think LLMs will accelerate the issue of code debt/code rot in this
way. Thus my concern about long term gains.L291[07:22:16] <asie> This
is not an issue invented by LLMs but it's like pouring
gasoline on a fire, if you catch my drift?
<asie> This
is not an issue invented by LLMs but it's like pouring
gasoline on a fire, if you catch my drift?L292[07:22:19] <SoraFirestorm> One of the big things
working against the LLMs is that being fed LLM output back in
causes what is essentially neurological collapse
<SoraFirestorm> One of the big things
working against the LLMs is that being fed LLM output back in
causes what is essentially neurological collapseL293[07:22:40] <SoraFirestorm> GIGO on an epic
scale
<SoraFirestorm> GIGO on an epic
scaleL294[07:23:14] <Corded> > <asie>
I think LLMs will accelerate the issue of code debt/code ro…
L295[07:23:14] <Renno>
I've definitely noticed, but there are ways around it as I
have discovered. A lot of it really comes down to initial design
choices and initial design philosophy and creating reliable
knowledge systems that are both agent and human navigable
<Renno>
I've definitely noticed, but there are ways around it as I
have discovered. A lot of it really comes down to initial design
choices and initial design philosophy and creating reliable
knowledge systems that are both agent and human navigableL296[07:23:14] <SoraFirestorm> Codebases that are already
mostly LLM slop are just going to get worse
<SoraFirestorm> Codebases that are already
mostly LLM slop are just going to get worseL297[07:23:34] <Corded> >
<Renno> I've definitely noticed, but there are ways
around it as I …
L298[07:23:34] <asie> Yes,
and if there's anything my software development experience
taught me, it's that the vast majority of companies will
sacrifice long term code quality for short term functionality
gains.
<asie> Yes,
and if there's anything my software development experience
taught me, it's that the vast majority of companies will
sacrifice long term code quality for short term functionality
gains.L299[07:23:46] <asie>
Because the latter makes money.
<asie>
Because the latter makes money.L300[07:23:56] <Renno> Oh
absolutely
<Renno> Oh
absolutelyL301[07:24:09] <Renno> but
there are still plenty of solutions and tradeoffs that are possible
to make
<Renno> but
there are still plenty of solutions and tradeoffs that are possible
to makeL302[07:24:35] <SoraFirestorm> Which was a borderline
inevitably before, but LLMs have definitely poured the high-octane
fuel on that particular fire
<SoraFirestorm> Which was a borderline
inevitably before, but LLMs have definitely poured the high-octane
fuel on that particular fireL303[07:24:39] <asie> Yes,
but also, a lot of code quality ops were only made possible because
programmers had a strong negotiating hand. LLMs are weakening this
negotiating hand.
<asie> Yes,
but also, a lot of code quality ops were only made possible because
programmers had a strong negotiating hand. LLMs are weakening this
negotiating hand.L304[07:24:46] <Renno>
even earlier today I was working with the latest deepseek v4 flash
model and doing some self modification of the system prompt to make
it smarter and more targeted in it's work
<Renno>
even earlier today I was working with the latest deepseek v4 flash
model and doing some self modification of the system prompt to make
it smarter and more targeted in it's workL305[07:25:10] <asie> So
managers are exerting more pressure, "Claude can do this in 30
minutes" is a literal quote 😉
<asie> So
managers are exerting more pressure, "Claude can do this in 30
minutes" is a literal quote 😉L306[07:25:23] <asie> That
I've heard someplace, sometime.
<asie> That
I've heard someplace, sometime.L307[07:25:28] <Corded> > <asie>
Yes, but also, a lot of code quality ops were only made pos…
L308[07:25:28] <Renno>
that's why it's time to transition from being the
worker
<Renno>
that's why it's time to transition from being the
workerL309[07:25:29] <Renno> to
being the owner
<Renno> to
being the ownerL310[07:25:46] <Renno> who
needs managers when you can program and actually leverage the AI
better than the supposed manager?
<Renno> who
needs managers when you can program and actually leverage the AI
better than the supposed manager?L311[07:26:15] <asie> My
latest side hustle lent me a net loss. It's not as rosy as it
sounds
<asie> My
latest side hustle lent me a net loss. It's not as rosy as it
soundsL312[07:26:44] <asie> The
companies which will have solid moats will have moats in the areas
LLMs can't just slop up for you
<asie> The
companies which will have solid moats will have moats in the areas
LLMs can't just slop up for youL313[07:26:50] <asie> And
then you're back to square one.
<asie> And
then you're back to square one.L314[07:27:02] <Renno>
honestly the thing I'm most grateful for when it comes to
OpenComputers is how thoroughly it taught me about effiency
<Renno>
honestly the thing I'm most grateful for when it comes to
OpenComputers is how thoroughly it taught me about effiencyL315[07:27:54] <Corded> > <asie>
The companies which will have solid moats will have moats i…
L316[07:27:54] <Renno> I
mean yea it definitely depends on what you're trying to do,
but right now there is more potential for programmers to be their
own bosses than ever before
<Renno> I
mean yea it definitely depends on what you're trying to do,
but right now there is more potential for programmers to be their
own bosses than ever beforeL317[07:28:19] <asie> I
think that starting your own business is still very much a
gamble
<asie> I
think that starting your own business is still very much a
gambleL318[07:28:27] <asie>
Especially given, like, you're not the only one thinking like
this.
<asie>
Especially given, like, you're not the only one thinking like
this.L319[07:28:35] <Renno>
always was
<Renno>
always wasL320[07:28:50] <Renno> but
it's now possible
<Renno> but
it's now possibleL321[07:29:01] <asie>
Always has been. One of my friends made that transition in
2015
<asie>
Always has been. One of my friends made that transition in
2015L322[07:29:02] <Renno>
competition should only ever be expected
<Renno>
competition should only ever be expectedL323[07:29:30] <asie> By,
once again, using the more efficient tools of his era than the
competition. High level scripting languages, modern codebase
practices, IDEs, modern database approaches
<asie> By,
once again, using the more efficient tools of his era than the
competition. High level scripting languages, modern codebase
practices, IDEs, modern database approachesL324[07:29:32] <Corded> > <asie>
Always has been. One of my friends made that transition in …
L325[07:29:32] <Renno> yea
but I bet that was pretty damn hard to do all by themselves unless
they had significant cooperation from some other people
<Renno> yea
but I bet that was pretty damn hard to do all by themselves unless
they had significant cooperation from some other peopleL326[07:29:56] <asie> It
was a matter of identifying a market where the moat was weak
<asie> It
was a matter of identifying a market where the moat was weakL327[07:30:01] <Renno>
still hard, but the difference is the tooling at the moment
<Renno>
still hard, but the difference is the tooling at the momentL328[07:30:01] <asie> Weak
enough that he could take it on largely by himself
<asie> Weak
enough that he could take it on largely by himselfL329[07:30:57] <Renno> the
ratio of time that I have to actually working on business stuff
myself has massively increased now that I can actually reliably
delegate work to LLMs
<Renno> the
ratio of time that I have to actually working on business stuff
myself has massively increased now that I can actually reliably
delegate work to LLMsL330[07:31:53] <asie>
Anyhow. Setting business efficiencies and the ruthlessness of
market capitalism aside, I still don't like LLMs, the future
is impossible to predict, and I continue to loathe how we as a
society just decided to add more festering problems to the
festering problems pile
<asie>
Anyhow. Setting business efficiencies and the ruthlessness of
market capitalism aside, I still don't like LLMs, the future
is impossible to predict, and I continue to loathe how we as a
society just decided to add more festering problems to the
festering problems pileL331[07:31:59] <asie> I
need to get off this train in a few minutes, so.
<asie> I
need to get off this train in a few minutes, so.L332[07:32:45] <asie>
Also, the Steam issue I was referencing: <https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671>.
CVE-2008-0166 was also wild: <https://github.com/g0tmi1k/debian-ssh>.
<asie>
Also, the Steam issue I was referencing: <https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671>.
CVE-2008-0166 was also wild: <https://github.com/g0tmi1k/debian-ssh>.L333[07:32:46] <MichiBot> Title:
Moved ~/.local/share/steam. Ran steam. It deleted everything on
system owned by user. | Posted by: keyvin | Posted:
Wed Jan 14 23:28:17 UTC 2015 | Status: closed
L334[07:34:02] <asie>
CVE-2008-0166 was caused by a code analysis tool raised a warning,
which the resolution of nerfed OpenSSL's random number
generator to the point of making all generated keys much more
trivial to crack
<asie>
CVE-2008-0166 was caused by a code analysis tool raised a warning,
which the resolution of nerfed OpenSSL's random number
generator to the point of making all generated keys much more
trivial to crackL335[07:34:18] <asie> So,
very much a "computer makes terrible suggestion, human
commits, the world blows up" kind of thing...
<asie> So,
very much a "computer makes terrible suggestion, human
commits, the world blows up" kind of thing...L336[07:48:33] ⇦
Quits: Hawk777 (~Hawk777@2605:1700:1080:de00:6b5e:19ea:b2ae:826d)
(Quit: Leaving.)
L337[07:54:06] <Izzy> should've
unionised much earlier
L338[07:55:00] <Izzy> the real gain with
these is devaluing labour
L339[07:55:49] <Izzy> Whether it can
actually work is irrelevant to "can I use it to pay people
less?"
L340[07:56:20] <Izzy> Glad I'm not a
programmer but dealing with this shit is miserable.
L341[08:09:22] <asie> very
much agreed
<asie> very
much agreedL342[08:09:35] <asie> if
we look at the fate of the translation profession in the age of
machine learning, they had to deal with it a decade earlier
<asie> if
we look at the fate of the translation profession in the age of
machine learning, they had to deal with it a decade earlierL343[08:09:38] <asie>
that's pretty much what happened
<asie>
that's pretty much what happenedL344[08:11:45] <Renno>
well, times change
<Renno>
well, times changeL345[08:11:54] <Renno> I
imagine there were many scribes that were pretty upset about the
printing press
<Renno> I
imagine there were many scribes that were pretty upset about the
printing pressL346[08:11:59] <asie> i
don't think translation changed for the better though as a
result
<asie> i
don't think translation changed for the better though as a
resultL347[08:12:11] <asie> all
I see is constant laments about subtitling quality dwindling, all
in the name of more profits
<asie> all
I see is constant laments about subtitling quality dwindling, all
in the name of more profitsL348[08:12:29] <asie> not
all of those laments are the result of technological progress, but
technological progress has caused the conditions for those cost
cuts to take place
<asie> not
all of those laments are the result of technological progress, but
technological progress has caused the conditions for those cost
cuts to take placeL349[08:12:41] <asie> i
think "well, times change" does not invalidate being
upset about the changes!
<asie> i
think "well, times change" does not invalidate being
upset about the changes!L350[08:13:22] <Corded> >
<Renno> I imagine there were many scribes that were pretty
upset ab…
L351[08:13:22] <asie>
also, if you want to pull that card, a much better example is the
backlash towards sound films
<asie>
also, if you want to pull that card, a much better example is the
backlash towards sound filmsL352[08:13:29] <asie> both
from actors, producers, and viewers
<asie> both
from actors, producers, and viewersL353[08:13:35] <asie> back
when they were being introduced in the interwar period
<asie> back
when they were being introduced in the interwar periodL354[08:13:48] <Izzy> 2027; year of the
haiku desktop?
L355[08:14:26] <asie> not
really, no. people will stick to Linux
<asie> not
really, no. people will stick to LinuxL356[08:14:32] <Izzy> I knowwwwww
L357[08:14:38] <Izzy> A girl can
dream
L358[08:14:56] <asie>
however, I think some hobbyist developers might end up gravitating
to projects like Haiku or NetBSD as a result
<asie>
however, I think some hobbyist developers might end up gravitating
to projects like Haiku or NetBSD as a resultL359[08:15:03] <asie>
which might help those projects. just not enough for commercial
relevance
<asie>
which might help those projects. just not enough for commercial
relevanceL360[08:18:20] <Corded> > <asie>
i think "well, times change" does not invalidate being
upse…
L361[08:18:20] <asie>
also, in the end, times are humans. we are the times. while i
don't think LLMs will leave programming, I do think the
backlash to genAI in the arts will persist for some time
<asie>
also, in the end, times are humans. we are the times. while i
don't think LLMs will leave programming, I do think the
backlash to genAI in the arts will persist for some timeL362[08:22:14] <Corded> > <asie>
not all of those laments are the result of technological pr…
L363[08:22:14] <asie> (but
also, access to cultural media is seemingly cheaper than
ever)
<asie> (but
also, access to cultural media is seemingly cheaper than
ever)L364[09:30:41]
⇨ Joins: flurry
(~flurry@dynamic-002-208-171-083.2.208.pool.telefonica.de)
L365[09:31:10] ⇦
Quits: flurry
(~flurry@dynamic-002-208-171-083.2.208.pool.telefonica.de) (Client
Quit)
L366[09:34:59] *
Amanda meows and looks around
L367[09:35:03] <Amanda> Busy night
L368[09:47:41] <tema5002>
Thought that I should share this here https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533410955801657344/1785664061554-2cebab703adb.png
<tema5002>
Thought that I should share this here https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533410955801657344/1785664061554-2cebab703adb.pngL369[09:55:33] <Amanda> @Renno worth
noting, the Oracle v Google copyright fight around java mostly
relied on line 10 lines of code. The only reason Oracle lost is
because the judge was a programmer and was like "this is the
only way to write those 10 lines of code. I've probably
written those lines of code!"
L370[09:55:46] <Amanda> On like*
L371[09:56:27] <Amanda> Literally,
that's all deploracle could cite as "stolen"
L372[10:01:13] <Amanda> There's
literally no way to know if the slop machine is outputting those 10
lines of code that are basically protected as the only way to do
something, or literally regurgitating some gpl code. It's very
easy to make the slop machine regurgitate it's input
verbatim
L373[10:03:57] <Amanda> You can't
system prompt your way out of this, because the source info
isn't preserved, otherwise they'd have to admit where
they stole the code from
L374[10:10:18] *
Amanda offers Izzy a single-use doodad that takes your open world
game save, and compresses it so the world is smaller
L375[10:10:41] <Amanda> (aka a cardboard
box, and a cardboard ring)
L376[10:10:46] <Izzy> compression
(squishes your world)
L377[10:11:13] <Amanda> Remember, if you
don't do this regularly, your fuel costs are going to go up,
as the world expands like a balloon
L378[10:12:28] <Amanda> Also super weird
that Nintendo let this game dev put a pokemon centre on the dark
side of the moon
L379[10:13:45] <Amanda> Also don't
trust the cop duo who show up at suspiciously-well-timed moments
whenever you're buying rocket fuel to go to the moon
L380[10:14:21] <Amanda> There's mods
to remove them, but they're a pain to install, as the
installer assumes you're using home assistant os
L381[10:16:47] ⇦
Quits: KindOne (kindone@2604:a880:400:d0::1f56:d001) (Ping timeout:
201 seconds)
L382[10:17:00] *
Amanda settles down atop Izzy's chest, continues meowing about
the nonsense from her dream, such as how you have to be careful
when you decide to do a race, because the split screen camera will
focus on whichever driver is closer to the next story beat, which
could leave you 3 screens away and unable to navigate the twisting
roads
L383[10:18:47] <Amanda> %choose wake
laptop?
L384[10:18:47] <MichiBot> Amanda:
Ohwouldyoulookatthetime! I suddenly need to be on the other side of
the planet!
L385[10:19:03] <Amanda> Wow, rude
L386[10:27:48] *** Joins: KindOne
(kindone@68.183.114.86) KindOne
L387[10:32:33] <Amanda> Hrm.. I've
gotta figure out how/if I can turn off the automatic
home/away/sleep thingy in the thermostat. It's overriding my
config via ha
L388[10:45:38] <Forecaster> just sit next to it and never
sleep!
<Forecaster> just sit next to it and never
sleep!L389[10:48:26] <SpiderEveryOS> %tonk
<SpiderEveryOS> %tonkL390[10:48:27] <MichiBot> Yay!
SpiderEveryOS! You beat Forecaster's previous record of
<0 (By 3 hours, 59 minutes and 41 seconds)! I hope you're
happy!
L391[10:48:29] <MichiBot>
SpiderEveryOS's new record is 3 hours, 59 minutes and 41
seconds! SpiderEveryOS also gained 0.00399 tonk points for stealing
the tonk. Position #1.
L392[10:51:19] ⇦
Quits: dustinm`
(~dustinm@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de) (Ping timeout:
201 seconds)
L393[10:55:32]
⇨ Joins: dustinm`
(~dustinm@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de)
L394[11:42:21] <Amanda> %choose wake
laptop or start space
L395[11:42:21] <MichiBot> Amanda: Is it a
bird?! Is it a plane?! No! It's "wake laptop"!
L396[11:48:18] <Forecaster> that's one way to wake
it up I suppose
<Forecaster> that's one way to wake
it up I supposeL397[13:03:30]
⇨ Joins: George (~George@188.163.92.223)
L398[13:04:08] <George> Hello
L399[13:04:41] ⇦
Quits: George (~George@188.163.92.223) (Client Quit)
L400[13:07:16] <Forecaster> kbye
<Forecaster> kbyeL401[13:08:22] <Brisingr
Aerowing> +
<Brisingr
Aerowing> +L402[13:37:23] <Amanda> Unlike the steam
controller, my laptop does not emit the Wilhelm scream when
thrown
L403[13:38:29] <Amanda> Now that
we've left the campgrounds, I can say this: Camping next to a
roller coaster is like camping near a beach full of thallophobic
people. Sounds liks waves, witht he occasional scream
L404[14:20:36] <Michiyo>
Ugh fuckin robots are broken....
<Michiyo>
Ugh fuckin robots are broken....L405[14:35:22] <Forecaster> Are they in warranty?
<Forecaster> Are they in warranty?L406[14:59:24] <Michiyo>
checks the release date of robots in the mod.
<Michiyo>
checks the release date of robots in the mod.L407[14:59:25] <Michiyo>
No
<Michiyo>
NoL408[15:05:16] <Forecaster> Well shoot, gonna have to pay
a fortune to repair them then
<Forecaster> Well shoot, gonna have to pay
a fortune to repair them thenL409[15:20:49] <SpiderEveryOS> %tonkout
<SpiderEveryOS> %tonkoutL410[15:20:51] <MichiBot> Willikers!
SpiderEveryOS! You beat your own previous record of 3 hours, 59
minutes and 41 seconds (By 32 minutes and 41 seconds)! I hope
you're happy!
L411[15:20:52] <MichiBot> SpiderEveryOS
has tonked out! Tonk has been reset! They gained 0.004 tonk points!
plus 0.006 bonus points for consecutive hours! Current score:
2.5489906, Position #1
L412[16:01:02] <Michiyo>
sigh ok took a bit to trace it down, but fixed.
<Michiyo>
sigh ok took a bit to trace it down, but fixed.L413[16:23:11] <Forecaster> at least it didn't take
two bits, or eight
<Forecaster> at least it didn't take
two bits, or eightL414[16:57:03]
⇨ Joins: Novexx (~Novexx@104.145.210.100)
L415[17:20:40] *
Amanda meows and looks around
L416[17:20:41] *
Amanda orders MichiBot some %soup % for lunch
L417[17:20:41] <MichiBot> Waiter!!
Waiter!! Theres Dollar Store Thor in my soup!
L418[17:23:28] <Amanda> %choose tablet or
tv
L419[17:23:28] <MichiBot> Amanda: The
sands of time whisper to me... they're saying
"tv".
L420[17:47:33] ⇦
Quits: Novexx (~Novexx@104.145.210.100) (Remote host closed the
connection)
L421[17:57:32] <Forecaster> %tonk
<Forecaster> %tonkL422[17:57:33] <MichiBot> By my throth!
Forecaster! You beat SpiderEveryOS's previous record of
<0 (By 2 hours, 36 minutes and 42 seconds)! I hope you're
happy!
L423[17:57:34] <MichiBot>
Forecaster's new record is 2 hours, 36 minutes and 42 seconds!
Forecaster also gained 0.00261 tonk points for stealing the tonk.
Position #2. Need 0.2326612 more points to pass
SpiderEveryOS!
L424[17:57:36] <Forecaster> and also %sip
<Forecaster> and also %sipL425[17:57:37] <MichiBot> You drink a hot
black potion (New!). Forecaster now has a mullet until they have a
diluted potion.
L426[17:57:44] <Forecaster> D:
<Forecaster> D:L427[17:57:52] <Vaur>
%chug
<Vaur>
%chugL428[17:57:52] <MichiBot> You drink a
liquid honey potion (New!). The potion bottle insults Vaur's
haircut.
L429[18:35:22] <Forecaster> %sip diluted
<Forecaster> %sip dilutedL430[18:35:22] <MichiBot> You drink a
diluted cerulium potion (New!). Forecaster: Nothing seemed to
happen...
L431[18:35:36] <Forecaster> at least it cured the mullet
situation
<Forecaster> at least it cured the mullet
situationL432[18:45:41] <SoraFirestorm> @Michiyo since you are
putting a bunch of effort into making the 1.21 port presentable,
least I can do for you is be a test subject when you are ready for
it
<SoraFirestorm> @Michiyo since you are
putting a bunch of effort into making the 1.21 port presentable,
least I can do for you is be a test subject when you are ready for
itL433[19:06:35] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> @Michiyo since you are putting a bunch of
effort into makin…
L434[19:06:35] <Michiyo>
https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/opencomputers-rebooted/files/all?page=1&pageSize=20&showAlphaFiles=show
Sure, watch for 1.9.2 to be approved and you can check it
out.
<Michiyo>
https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/opencomputers-rebooted/files/all?page=1&pageSize=20&showAlphaFiles=show
Sure, watch for 1.9.2 to be approved and you can check it
out.L435[19:06:35] <Michiyo>
You'll also need https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/scalable-cats-force
Until I eventually get sick of Scala and port it out. :P
<Michiyo>
You'll also need https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/scalable-cats-force
Until I eventually get sick of Scala and port it out. :PL436[19:07:21] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> reacted :yebuddyts: to <Michiyo>
https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/opencomputers-rebooted/files/all?p…
L437[19:08:24] <Michiyo>
Please break it, let me know what you find. I'm sure there are
problems. Like I said I've been ripping out as much of the LLM
cruft as I can. And I've discovered a number of issues on my
own, and I'm not even GOOD with OC or Lua. Lol
<Michiyo>
Please break it, let me know what you find. I'm sure there are
problems. Like I said I've been ripping out as much of the LLM
cruft as I can. And I've discovered a number of issues on my
own, and I'm not even GOOD with OC or Lua. LolL438[19:09:26] <Michiyo>
I'm not used to CF taking so long to approve one of my files.
Though I guess most of my mods are A LOT smaller than OC.
<Michiyo>
I'm not used to CF taking so long to approve one of my files.
Though I guess most of my mods are A LOT smaller than OC.L439[19:09:44] <Forecaster> I thought you were a licensed
Lua-tichian!
<Forecaster> I thought you were a licensed
Lua-tichian!L440[19:09:59] <Michiyo> I
can iterate a loop!
<Michiyo> I
can iterate a loop!L441[19:10:10] <Brisingr
Aerowing> New projects tend to take a bit for some reason
<Brisingr
Aerowing> New projects tend to take a bit for some reasonL442[19:10:20] <Brisingr
Aerowing> More checks methinks
<Brisingr
Aerowing> More checks methinksL443[19:10:28] <Michiyo>
Also, I'm open to PRs and ANY suggestions.
<Michiyo>
Also, I'm open to PRs and ANY suggestions.L444[19:10:41] <Forecaster> Suggestion: more
cowbell
<Forecaster> Suggestion: more
cowbellL445[19:10:45] <Brisingr
Aerowing> I may look later.
<Brisingr
Aerowing> I may look later.L446[19:10:52] <Corded> >
<Forecaster> Suggestion: more cowbell
L447[19:10:52] <Michiyo>
Will add a cowbell component.
<Michiyo>
Will add a cowbell component.L448[19:10:54] <Michiyo>
:P
<Michiyo>
:PL449[19:11:00] <Michiyo>
Hmmm...
<Michiyo>
Hmmm...L450[19:11:14] <Michiyo>
Change to beep to let you specify beep or cowbell.
<Michiyo>
Change to beep to let you specify beep or cowbell.L451[19:11:20] <Forecaster> it's so we can ping the
cows, of course
<Forecaster> it's so we can ping the
cows, of courseL452[19:13:41] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> @Michiyo since you are putting a bunch of
effort into makin…
L453[19:13:42] <Michiyo>
Approved!
<Michiyo>
Approved!L454[19:14:12] <SoraFirestorm> Great, will look at it
when I get home
<SoraFirestorm> Great, will look at it
when I get homeL455[19:14:23] <Michiyo>
Thanks. i've gotta run some errands.
<Michiyo>
Thanks. i've gotta run some errands.L456[19:15:28] <Michiyo>
https://github.com/CaitlynMainer/OpenComputers
I'll also be moving dev builds to jenkins as I hate how Github
does releases. So dev builds will be Jenkins, then releases will go
to CF.
<Michiyo>
https://github.com/CaitlynMainer/OpenComputers
I'll also be moving dev builds to jenkins as I hate how Github
does releases. So dev builds will be Jenkins, then releases will go
to CF.L457[19:16:35] <SoraFirestorm> You are amazing and great.
TYSM for working this port.
<SoraFirestorm> You are amazing and great.
TYSM for working this port.L458[19:18:22] *** Joins: Hawk777
(~Hawk777@2605:1700:1080:de00:68f:cdfa:7cf4:7d3d) Hawk777
L459[20:16:27] <Corded> >
<Michiyo> https://github.com/CaitlynMainer/OpenComputers
I'll also b…
L460[20:16:27] <asie> wait
what the fuck?
<asie> wait
what the fuck?L461[20:16:33] <asie>
amazing
<asie>
amazingL462[20:16:34] <asie> OC
is saved
<asie> OC
is savedL463[20:16:57] <asie> if
you're starting from the 1.20.1 code, I think it is based on
the 1.16.5 code, and so it might be missing a bunch of the patches
I made in the last year or two
<asie> if
you're starting from the 1.20.1 code, I think it is based on
the 1.16.5 code, and so it might be missing a bunch of the patches
I made in the last year or twoL464[20:16:59] <Michiyo>
Oh hay asie
<Michiyo>
Oh hay asieL465[20:17:18] <Michiyo>
Yeah, most likely
<Michiyo>
Yeah, most likelyL466[20:17:25] <Michiyo> *
hey
<Michiyo> *
heyL467[20:17:53] <Michiyo>
I'll work on porting stuff forward.
<Michiyo>
I'll work on porting stuff forward.L468[20:23:53] ⇦
Quits: xal (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (Quit: bye)
L469[20:24:21]
⇨ Joins: xal (~xal@mx1.xal.systems)
L470[20:24:44] ⇦
Quits: xal (~xal@mx1.xal.systems) (Client Quit)
L471[20:26:16]
⇨ Joins: xal (~xal@mx1.xal.systems)
L472[20:26:35] <Corded> >
<Michiyo> I'll work on porting stuff forward.
L473[20:26:35] <asie> if
you need any advice, make sure to ping me
<asie> if
you need any advice, make sure to ping meL474[20:26:41] <asie> and
I mean ping me, I don't lurk this place much anymore
<asie> and
I mean ping me, I don't lurk this place much anymoreL475[20:26:46] <Corded> >
<Michiyo> reacted 👍 to <asie> if you need any advice,
make sure to ping me
L476[20:27:01] <asie> make
my Discord light up like a mrbeast scam
<asie> make
my Discord light up like a mrbeast scamL477[20:27:04] <asie> then
I might even notice
<asie> then
I might even noticeL478[20:29:52] <Kristobear38> Are there any expectations
around what works/what should/what doesn't?
<Kristobear38> Are there any expectations
around what works/what should/what doesn't?L479[20:33:53] <Corded> >
<Michiyo> reacted 😂 to <asie> make my Discord light
up like a mrbeast scam
L480[20:34:20] <Michiyo>
No, the hope is it's all there except the updates asie has
made.
<Michiyo>
No, the hope is it's all there except the updates asie has
made.L481[20:35:41] <Michiyo> I
folded OpenPrinter into OC directly. And the 1.20 porter merged in
OpenScreens (without permission, but I got permission)
<Michiyo> I
folded OpenPrinter into OC directly. And the 1.20 porter merged in
OpenScreens (without permission, but I got permission)L482[20:40:37] <Kristobear38> what kind of help do you
need the most? testing? fixing regressions? anything else?
<Kristobear38> what kind of help do you
need the most? testing? fixing regressions? anything else?L483[20:40:46] <Michiyo>
Yes. lol
<Michiyo>
Yes. lolL484[20:41:21] <Michiyo>
Testing for sure, cause I was never an "advanced"
user.
<Michiyo>
Testing for sure, cause I was never an "advanced"
user.L485[20:41:44] <Michiyo>
My goal is to keep it as compatible with the OG as possible
<Michiyo>
My goal is to keep it as compatible with the OG as possibleL486[20:42:27] <Kristobear38> sure
<Kristobear38> sureL487[20:43:29] <Michiyo>
So the little things I've tested seem to work well enough...
but like ANYTHING above noob is gonna be an issue for me :P
<Michiyo>
So the little things I've tested seem to work well enough...
but like ANYTHING above noob is gonna be an issue for me :PL488[20:43:50] ⇦
Quits: Vexatos (~Vexatos@2001:4647:af75:0:bb33:d464:9e18:52bb)
(Quit: Insert quantum chemistry joke here)
L489[20:44:08] <Michiyo>
Then maybe I can bribe Vex to update Computronics to 1.21.1
:P
<Michiyo>
Then maybe I can bribe Vex to update Computronics to 1.21.1
:PL490[20:45:36] <SoraFirestorm> I'll try to stress it
as much as I can
<SoraFirestorm> I'll try to stress it
as much as I canL491[20:46:12] <SoraFirestorm> In the past I wasn't
ever a super heavy user, though I did have some computers and
robots employed
<SoraFirestorm> In the past I wasn't
ever a super heavy user, though I did have some computers and
robots employedL492[20:47:40] <SoraFirestorm> We should still have
access to mod-provided CC interop APIs, right? Will almost
certainly end up tasking computers to interact with Create if
possible
<SoraFirestorm> We should still have
access to mod-provided CC interop APIs, right? Will almost
certainly end up tasking computers to interact with Create if
possibleL493[20:59:22] <Michiyo>
Yeah, it has the Create compat. I removed a bunch of dead compat
code, and I'll be re-adding it slowly
<Michiyo>
Yeah, it has the Create compat. I removed a bunch of dead compat
code, and I'll be re-adding it slowlyL494[21:02:33] <Corded> >
<SoraFirestorm> reacted :yebuddyts: to <Michiyo>
Yeah, it has the Create compat. I removed a bunch of dead compat
code, and I'll…
L495[21:13:20] <Michiyo>
Mind, I've not TESTED that create compat, so IDK WTF it does
:D
<Michiyo>
Mind, I've not TESTED that create compat, so IDK WTF it does
:DL496[22:01:13] <SpiderEveryOS> %tonk
<SpiderEveryOS> %tonkL497[22:01:13] <MichiBot> Geez!
SpiderEveryOS! You beat Forecaster's previous record of 2
hours, 36 minutes and 42 seconds (By 1 hour, 26 minutes and 58
seconds)! I hope you're happy!
L498[22:01:14] <MichiBot>
SpiderEveryOS's new record is 4 hours, 3 minutes and 41
seconds! SpiderEveryOS also gained 0.00435 (0.00145 x 3) tonk
points for stealing the tonk. Position #1.
L499[23:16:32] <Amanda> %choose halucinate
or irradiate
L500[23:16:32] <MichiBot> Amanda: The
sands of time whisper to me... they're saying
"halucinate".
L502[23:49:24] <SoraFirestorm> I can toss you full logs
if you need them
<SoraFirestorm> I can toss you full logs
if you need themL503[23:49:39] <Michiyo>
o_O what? I'm running it right now.... That's the build
from CF?
<Michiyo>
o_O what? I'm running it right now.... That's the build
from CF?L504[23:49:43] <SoraFirestorm> yeah
<SoraFirestorm> yeahL505[23:49:50] <SoraFirestorm> I downloaded it via Prism
Launcher's built-in thing
<SoraFirestorm> I downloaded it via Prism
Launcher's built-in thingL506[23:50:04] <SoraFirestorm> it's own mod
downloader; I didn't download from CF manually
<SoraFirestorm> it's own mod
downloader; I didn't download from CF manuallyL507[23:50:45] <SoraFirestorm> I have generally not had a
problem using PM's built-in grabber
<SoraFirestorm> I have generally not had a
problem using PM's built-in grabberL508[23:50:59] <Michiyo>
.... the jar on CF is corrupt?
<Michiyo>
.... the jar on CF is corrupt?L509[23:51:26] <Michiyo>
https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533623291338559529/1785714686105-9470031c0736.jar
<Michiyo>
https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533623291338559529/1785714686105-9470031c0736.jarL510[23:51:26] <SoraFirestorm> My md5sum for
`opencomputers-v1.9.2.jar` is
`62628e4777d4f9b12487012a81713e8f`
<SoraFirestorm> My md5sum for
`opencomputers-v1.9.2.jar` is
`62628e4777d4f9b12487012a81713e8f`L511[23:51:31] <Michiyo>
ignore the 1.9.1
<Michiyo>
ignore the 1.9.1L512[23:51:52] <Michiyo>
Actually I'm going to run a fresh build
<Michiyo>
Actually I'm going to run a fresh buildL513[23:53:17] <Michiyo>
Ok NOW you can ignore the 1.9.1 this is fresh off the gradle build
https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533623754331263096/1785714796465-38642e2df978.jar
<Michiyo>
Ok NOW you can ignore the 1.9.1 this is fresh off the gradle build
https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533623754331263096/1785714796465-38642e2df978.jarL514[23:54:08] <Michiyo>
Yeah... the CF build is corrupt what the hell
<Michiyo>
Yeah... the CF build is corrupt what the hellL515[23:55:22] <SoraFirestorm> that ^^^ booted
<SoraFirestorm> that ^^^ bootedL516[23:56:26] <Michiyo>
OH FUCKSAKE
<Michiyo>
OH FUCKSAKEL517[23:56:43] <SoraFirestorm> mood honestly
<SoraFirestorm> mood honestlyL518[23:58:12] <SoraFirestorm> Recipe for EEPROM seems
goofed
<SoraFirestorm> Recipe for EEPROM seems
goofedL519[23:58:25] <SoraFirestorm> https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533625046621360359/1785715104723-2ee077595320.png
<SoraFirestorm> https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533625046621360359/1785715104723-2ee077595320.pngL520[23:58:39] <SoraFirestorm> https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533625108520898630/1785715119423-f820bec4f594.png
<SoraFirestorm> https://discordembeds.pc-logix.com/live/1533625108520898630/1785715119423-f820bec4f594.pngL521[23:58:47] <Michiyo>
Hmmm
<Michiyo>
HmmmL522[23:59:08] <Michiyo>
That's what I get for assuming that the recipes would port
forward from 1.12 :P
<Michiyo>
That's what I get for assuming that the recipes would port
forward from 1.12 :PL523[23:59:35] <SoraFirestorm> Also, please keep in mind
this is a test pack that has '124 mods' according to the
title screen count
<SoraFirestorm> Also, please keep in mind
this is a test pack that has '124 mods' according to the
title screen countL524[23:59:52] <SoraFirestorm> so anything I report might
be down to weird cross-interactions
<SoraFirestorm> so anything I report might
be down to weird cross-interactions