L1[00:16:25] ⇦
Quits: turbo_penguin (~turbopeng@169-253-237-24.gci.net) (Quit:
Leaving)
L2[00:18:10] ⇨
Joins: smoke_fumus (~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90)
L3[00:19:54] <smoke_fumus> Guys, can someone
explain to me the low level ops of software. By that i mean, how OS
> program > os routines implemented?
L4[00:21:54] ⇦
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(~EiraIRC@47-51-43-210.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com) (Ping timeout:
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L5[00:24:21] 
<payonel>
smoke_fumus: i can explain any level of detail you want
<payonel>
smoke_fumus: i can explain any level of detail you wantL6[00:24:35] <payonel>
but before i give a thesis on how openos works, do you have a
specific question?
<payonel>
but before i give a thesis on how openos works, do you have a
specific question?L7[00:25:11] <smoke_th>
@payonel we could talk in private to not spam the chat.
<smoke_th>
@payonel we could talk in private to not spam the chat.L8[00:25:18] <payonel>
it's definitely not spam
<payonel>
it's definitely not spamL9[00:25:23] <payonel>
it's what this channel is for ?
<payonel>
it's what this channel is for ?L10[00:28:17] <smoke_th>
yeah, okay. i'll use discord rather than irc client then, since i
use it much more frequently.
<smoke_th>
yeah, okay. i'll use discord rather than irc client then, since i
use it much more frequently.L11[00:28:17] <smoke_th>
Okay let me back up a bit first. Basically - this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8QcZz2bcJM <
i've been working on a hacking game last year, but that version of
project got scrapped. Thing is - unlike OC - os in this one was
quite hardcoded. Right now project is about to restart, and i'm
glad i stumbled upon open computers while project was in
cooldown.
<smoke_th>
Okay let me back up a bit first. Basically - this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8QcZz2bcJM <
i've been working on a hacking game last year, but that version of
project got scrapped. Thing is - unlike OC - os in this one was
quite hardcoded. Right now project is about to restart, and i'm
glad i stumbled upon open computers while project was in
cooldown.L12[00:28:17] <smoke_th>
What i want to do - is i want to implement something closer to
opencomputers scope of simulationl, down to rudimentary
hardware.
<smoke_th>
What i want to do - is i want to implement something closer to
opencomputers scope of simulationl, down to rudimentary
hardware.L13[00:28:18] <MichiBot> NetBreakers
prototype preview 1 | length: 5m 28s | Likes:
0 Dislikes: 0 Views: 43 | by Smoke Fumus |
Published On 23/6/2016
L14[00:28:45] ⇦
Quits: smoke_fumus (~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90) (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0
Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
L15[00:31:01] <payonel>
smoke_th: i'm almost never in discord like this ?
<payonel>
smoke_th: i'm almost never in discord like this ?L16[00:31:08] <payonel>
but i am when i'm playing games because ... reasons
<payonel>
but i am when i'm playing games because ... reasonsL17[00:31:17] <smoke_th>
voicechat. ?
<smoke_th>
voicechat. ?L18[00:31:23] <payonel> ah
sure
<payonel> ah
sureL19[00:31:34] <payonel>
not in General though, pick one
<payonel>
not in General though, pick oneL20[00:31:41] <smoke_th>
no i mean, you use voicechat for games
<smoke_th>
no i mean, you use voicechat for gamesL21[00:31:48] <smoke_th> i
don't want to voicecall right now lel
<smoke_th> i
don't want to voicecall right now lelL22[00:31:53] <payonel>
oh, not that, i dont have hexchat on my gaming pc
<payonel>
oh, not that, i dont have hexchat on my gaming pcL23[00:32:03] ⇦
Quits: Sava (~Sava@cable-178-148-185-58.dynamic.sbb.rs) (Ping
timeout: 200 seconds)
L24[00:32:30] <smoke_th>
unlike opencomputers - this one uses SPRAK programming language,
which is mappable to C# calls out of the box and already has
"cpu clock" stack execution limiter, since it was
specifically designed and used for else heart.break() (great game
btw, you should totally check it). and i'm pretty certain it is a
good stand-in for lua. hell at least it has proper for-do cycle and
array counting starts from 0
<smoke_th>
unlike opencomputers - this one uses SPRAK programming language,
which is mappable to C# calls out of the box and already has
"cpu clock" stack execution limiter, since it was
specifically designed and used for else heart.break() (great game
btw, you should totally check it). and i'm pretty certain it is a
good stand-in for lua. hell at least it has proper for-do cycle and
array counting starts from 0L25[00:34:04] <payonel>
okok, reading your question now
<payonel>
okok, reading your question nowL26[00:34:06] <payonel> i
was in-game
<payonel> i
was in-gameL27[00:35:18] <payonel>
ok, read that
<payonel>
ok, read thatL28[00:35:23] <smoke_th> I
haven't typed it in yet, i just typed in the backstory. Basically i
want to understand how opencomputers manages to run it's general
architecture - from the 'object' to the "power on" to
bios to OS, and also understand OS execution call passing
implementation
<smoke_th> I
haven't typed it in yet, i just typed in the backstory. Basically i
want to understand how opencomputers manages to run it's general
architecture - from the 'object' to the "power on" to
bios to OS, and also understand OS execution call passing
implementationL29[00:35:42] <payonel>
so, do you have a question about building your own os and need to
know our hardware api or do you want to know how i built
openos?
<payonel>
so, do you have a question about building your own os and need to
know our hardware api or do you want to know how i built
openos?L30[00:36:05] <payonel>
well...that's a lot of ground to cover ?
<payonel>
well...that's a lot of ground to cover ?L31[00:36:23] <smoke_th>
Latter mostly. I need a guidance help here so i wouldn't spend
another 3 weeks coming up with my own/researching the depths of irl
os creation
<smoke_th>
Latter mostly. I need a guidance help here so i wouldn't spend
another 3 weeks coming up with my own/researching the depths of irl
os creationL32[00:37:16] <smoke_th>
Oh also - i already have a virtual graphics adapter (which uses
compute shader) working - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlICa6Xwygg unlike
real VGA - this one operates it's screen fill in parallel
<smoke_th>
Oh also - i already have a virtual graphics adapter (which uses
compute shader) working - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlICa6Xwygg unlike
real VGA - this one operates it's screen fill in parallelL33[00:37:17] <MichiBot> Virtual
graphics adapter on compute shader | length: 1m 17s |
Likes: 5 Dislikes: 0 Views: 85 | by Smoke Fumus |
Published On 13/4/2017
L34[00:37:54] ⇨
Joins: Sava
(~Sava@cable-178-148-185-58.dynamic.sbb.rs)
L35[00:38:07] <smoke_th>
and yes that is an oldschool pixelshift array action
<smoke_th>
and yes that is an oldschool pixelshift array actionL36[00:38:48] <payonel>
when you turn on a computer, it is the "computer"
component that is running
<payonel>
when you turn on a computer, it is the "computer"
component that is runningL37[00:39:15] <payonel>
well, no ... let me start over
<payonel>
well, no ... let me start overL38[00:39:31] <payonel>
first you have the arch, like the Lua arch, it is the cpu
<payonel>
first you have the arch, like the Lua arch, it is the cpuL39[00:39:40] <payonel> it
isn't a component as far as OC runtime is concerned
<payonel> it
isn't a component as far as OC runtime is concernedL40[00:40:05] <smoke_th>
by arch you literally mean lua commands api which is mapped to java
calls back and forth
<smoke_th>
by arch you literally mean lua commands api which is mapped to java
calls back and forthL41[00:40:58] <payonel>
in-game when you craft the cpu and select the arch, you are
selecting an implementation in scala for the Architecture
<payonel>
in-game when you craft the cpu and select the arch, you are
selecting an implementation in scala for the ArchitectureL42[00:41:12] <payonel> it
is that arch object that is executed
<payonel> it
is that arch object that is executedL43[00:41:44] <payonel>
the arch a few basic objects that represent the environment for the
user in-game
<payonel>
the arch a few basic objects that represent the environment for the
user in-gameL44[00:42:27] <payonel> 1.
the `component` api, providing methods such as component.list,
component.invoke, component.methods, etc
<payonel> 1.
the `component` api, providing methods such as component.list,
component.invoke, component.methods, etcL45[00:43:10] ⇨
Joins: Vexatos
(~Vexatos@p5B3C9D9D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L46[00:43:11] zsh
sets mode: +v on Vexatos
L47[00:43:25] <smoke_th>
that's zero layer api which is directly mapped to to java commands,
correct?
<smoke_th>
that's zero layer api which is directly mapped to to java commands,
correct?L48[00:43:55] <payonel> 2.
and some other less essentials, like `unicode` `system`, etc
<payonel> 2.
and some other less essentials, like `unicode` `system`, etcL49[00:44:00] <payonel>
yes, zero layer is a fair name for it
<payonel>
yes, zero layer is a fair name for itL50[00:44:20] <payonel>
the Lua arch translates, or maps, those api in _G. tables
<payonel>
the Lua arch translates, or maps, those api in _G. tablesL51[00:44:37] <payonel>
the first, and really only, thing the Lua arch does is load the
machine.lua
<payonel>
the first, and really only, thing the Lua arch does is load the
machine.luaL52[00:45:18] <payonel>
this is outside the sandbox, machine.lua creates the sandbox, then
checks components via`component.list` for an EEPROM
<payonel>
this is outside the sandbox, machine.lua creates the sandbox, then
checks components via`component.list` for an EEPROML53[00:45:26] <payonel>
then, loads and executes the code on the EEPROM
<payonel>
then, loads and executes the code on the EEPROML54[00:45:48] <payonel> at
this point, machine.lua is "done" (it loops for yields
and events and such, but does nothing more)
<payonel> at
this point, machine.lua is "done" (it loops for yields
and events and such, but does nothing more)L55[00:46:31] <payonel>
our default Lua EEPROM is then executing. and you are inside the
sandbox
<payonel>
our default Lua EEPROM is then executing. and you are inside the
sandboxL56[00:47:04] <payonel>
the default Lua EEPROM checks for a last used filesystem disk,
tries to load init.lua from it, then checks all disks and loads and
executes the first init.lua is finds
<payonel>
the default Lua EEPROM checks for a last used filesystem disk,
tries to load init.lua from it, then checks all disks and loads and
executes the first init.lua is findsL57[00:47:28] <payonel>
that is when OpenOS is started, and everything in OpenOS is then
running from that init.lua
<payonel>
that is when OpenOS is started, and everything in OpenOS is then
running from that init.luaL58[00:48:22] <smoke_th>
machine.lua piece is separated from actual editable user input, and
in fact, considered 'hardcoded' from what i can understand. So, in
essence - machine.lua can be called "soft motherboard initial
startup routine where it goes to bios....okay Kickstart - this is
definitely more like amiga kickstart rom and loads current
components and what-not, then checks for command EEPROM code entry
and it all spins from there".
<smoke_th>
machine.lua piece is separated from actual editable user input, and
in fact, considered 'hardcoded' from what i can understand. So, in
essence - machine.lua can be called "soft motherboard initial
startup routine where it goes to bios....okay Kickstart - this is
definitely more like amiga kickstart rom and loads current
components and what-not, then checks for command EEPROM code entry
and it all spins from there".L59[00:48:55] <payonel> a
few corrections in our case
<payonel> a
few corrections in our caseL60[00:49:16] <payonel> 1.
machine.lua doesn't load any components, it ONLY looks for EEPROM
and loads and executes the code on it
<payonel> 1.
machine.lua doesn't load any components, it ONLY looks for EEPROM
and loads and executes the code on itL61[00:49:32] <payonel>
yes it is hardcoded, it is outside the sandbox, the user never sees
and cannot edit it
<payonel>
yes it is hardcoded, it is outside the sandbox, the user never sees
and cannot edit itL62[00:49:58] <payonel> i
guess i only had that 1 correction ?
<payonel> i
guess i only had that 1 correction ?L63[00:50:22] <smoke_th>
So it's head-less machine startup. more akin to arduino where it
just loads the chip and unless "burned" chip info (EEPROM
in this case) has a specific serial check - it doesn't bother with
components.
<smoke_th>
So it's head-less machine startup. more akin to arduino where it
just loads the chip and unless "burned" chip info (EEPROM
in this case) has a specific serial check - it doesn't bother with
components.L64[00:50:24] <smoke_th>
Got it
<smoke_th>
Got itL65[00:51:04] <smoke_th> i
mean, does it? what about cpu/ram presence check?
<smoke_th> i
mean, does it? what about cpu/ram presence check?L66[00:51:13] <payonel> it
does not check for those
<payonel> it
does not check for thoseL67[00:51:17] <payonel>
the CPU IS the arch
<payonel>
the CPU IS the archL68[00:51:27] <payonel>
the arch is running machine.lua
<payonel>
the arch is running machine.luaL69[00:51:31] <smoke_th>
OH.
<smoke_th>
OH.L70[00:51:39] <payonel>
the memory is merely a limit
<payonel>
the memory is merely a limitL71[00:51:40] <smoke_th>
yeah, that makes more sense architecture wise
<smoke_th>
yeah, that makes more sense architecture wiseL72[00:52:04] <payonel>
the arch is checking the memory limit during runtime
<payonel>
the arch is checking the memory limit during runtimeL73[00:52:13] ⇦
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(~Brandon@pa49-185-188-47.pa.vic.optusnet.com.au) (Ping timeout:
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L74[00:52:23] <smoke_th>
i'd need to code that in. the whole memory alloc
<smoke_th>
i'd need to code that in. the whole memory allocL75[00:52:25] <payonel> we
don't provide direct memory access, at least not in the Lua
arch
<payonel> we
don't provide direct memory access, at least not in the Lua
archL76[00:52:42] ⇨
Joins: brandon3055
(~Brandon@pa49-185-229-93.pa.vic.optusnet.com.au)
L77[00:52:44] <smoke_th>
oh yeah, pointer fun in lua. The horrors just around the
corner.
<smoke_th>
oh yeah, pointer fun in lua. The horrors just around the
corner.L78[00:53:11] <payonel>
Lua provides a very nice hook, where we can be notified of every
realloc
<payonel>
Lua provides a very nice hook, where we can be notified of every
reallocL79[00:53:17] <payonel> we
use that to trigger OOM
<payonel> we
use that to trigger OOML80[00:53:34] <smoke_th>
not in case with .net so i will probably need to code in direct
variable usage stack as well ?
<smoke_th>
not in case with .net so i will probably need to code in direct
variable usage stack as well ?L81[00:53:36] <payonel>
but that happens in the arch
<payonel>
but that happens in the archL82[00:54:51] <payonel> as
for processes in OpenOS ... either that is actually far more
complex, or I'm just biased because I wrote it and I know the
details far more than i know everything else i just said
<payonel> as
for processes in OpenOS ... either that is actually far more
complex, or I'm just biased because I wrote it and I know the
details far more than i know everything else i just saidL83[00:55:05] <payonel> i
have written an emulator for OC, which is where 90% of my knowledge
of what i just explained came from
<payonel> i
have written an emulator for OC, which is where 90% of my knowledge
of what i just explained came fromL84[00:55:29] <Vexatos> I can confirm all
he just said, and I did not write any emulator >_>
L85[00:55:59] <payonel>
no, but computronics ?
<payonel>
no, but computronics ?L86[00:56:32] <smoke_th>
Hm. Okay. How would you go about implementing RAM limiting without
having direct access to realloc hook of lua?
<smoke_th>
Hm. Okay. How would you go about implementing RAM limiting without
having direct access to realloc hook of lua?L87[00:56:46] <payonel>
that completely depends on your arch
<payonel>
that completely depends on your archL88[00:57:12] <payonel> OC
doesn't babysit the arch
<payonel> OC
doesn't babysit the archL89[00:57:34] <smoke_th> i
don't plan on implementing registers and actual assembly or direct
cpu emulation if that's what you're asking. it's gonna be too
redundant
<smoke_th> i
don't plan on implementing registers and actual assembly or direct
cpu emulation if that's what you're asking. it's gonna be too
redundantL90[00:57:44] <smoke_th> i
don't plan on implementing registers and actual assembly and direct
cpu emulation if that's what you're asking. it's gonna be too
redundant
<smoke_th> i
don't plan on implementing registers and actual assembly and direct
cpu emulation if that's what you're asking. it's gonna be too
redundantL91[00:57:52] <smoke_th> i
don't plan on implementing registers and actual assembly and direct
cpu emulation if that's what you're asking. it's gonna be too
redundant in that case
<smoke_th> i
don't plan on implementing registers and actual assembly and direct
cpu emulation if that's what you're asking. it's gonna be too
redundant in that caseL92[00:58:37] <payonel> i
dont know about c# memory management. i worked in c# for about 5
years but I didn't do any memory allocation control
<payonel> i
dont know about c# memory management. i worked in c# for about 5
years but I didn't do any memory allocation controlL93[00:58:51] <smoke_th>
because c# has nice GC and does it all automatically. ?
<smoke_th>
because c# has nice GC and does it all automatically. ?L94[00:58:57] <Vexatos> Why would you have
to in a language with a sane GC >:>
L95[00:59:12] <Vexatos> Java even has three
sane GCs
L96[00:59:14] <Vexatos> D:
L97[00:59:18] <payonel>
haha
<payonel>
hahaL98[00:59:31] <smoke_th> i
think it's more like 4 at this point.
<smoke_th> i
think it's more like 4 at this point.L99[01:00:03] <Vexatos> there is the GM,
G1, whatever the default was called... what else >_>
L100[01:00:04] <smoke_th>
There's the linear, there's old parallel, there's parallel and then
there's recent one which partially uses graph logic
multidimensional, somewhat similar to GCC's graphite
<smoke_th>
There's the linear, there's old parallel, there's parallel and then
there's recent one which partially uses graph logic
multidimensional, somewhat similar to GCC's graphiteL101[01:01:03] <Vexatos> right, serial was
the fourth one >_>
L102[01:01:15] <payonel>
smoke_th: so about processes in Lua. a process can have a child
process. each process has some metadata. but the threading is
cooperative, and not preemptive. There are background processes and
events, but they occur when the user yields (cooperatively), and
then intercepts cause things to happen in parallel
<payonel>
smoke_th: so about processes in Lua. a process can have a child
process. each process has some metadata. but the threading is
cooperative, and not preemptive. There are background processes and
events, but they occur when the user yields (cooperatively), and
then intercepts cause things to happen in parallelL103[01:01:31] <payonel> i
meant, processes in OpenOS
<payonel> i
meant, processes in OpenOSL104[01:01:45] <smoke_th>
in parallel or in ienumerator?
<smoke_th>
in parallel or in ienumerator?L105[01:02:06] <payonel>
nonconcurrent parallelism
<payonel>
nonconcurrent parallelismL106[01:03:00] <smoke_th>
you sure it's not the other way around?
<smoke_th>
you sure it's not the other way around?L107[01:03:08] <smoke_th>
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1050222/concurrency-vs-parallelism-what-is-the-difference
<smoke_th>
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1050222/concurrency-vs-parallelism-what-is-the-differenceL108[01:03:16] <payonel>
init runs the shell, and shell creates child processes (based on
command line input) and executes those child processes until they
complete
<payonel>
init runs the shell, and shell creates child processes (based on
command line input) and executes those child processes until they
completeL109[01:03:59] <payonel>
smoke_th: thanks, i got them flipped
<payonel>
smoke_th: thanks, i got them flippedL110[01:04:02] <smoke_th>
?
<smoke_th>
?L111[01:04:10] <smoke_th>
so, literally concurrent execution
<smoke_th>
so, literally concurrent executionL112[01:04:21] <Vexatos> if they are not
parallel... are they orthogonal? D:
L113[01:05:18] <smoke_th>
Nah, think of it more like a list of subtasks and a single rollodex
- you put them into it one after another, sometimes subtasks from
different processes stuck between each other - but it's still
concurrent- you have a single rollodex
<smoke_th>
Nah, think of it more like a list of subtasks and a single rollodex
- you put them into it one after another, sometimes subtasks from
different processes stuck between each other - but it's still
concurrent- you have a single rollodexL114[01:05:38] <smoke_th>
Nah, think of it more like a list of subtasks and a single rolodex
- you put them into it one after another, sometimes subtasks from
different processes stuck between each other - but it's still
concurrent- you have a single rolodex
<smoke_th>
Nah, think of it more like a list of subtasks and a single rolodex
- you put them into it one after another, sometimes subtasks from
different processes stuck between each other - but it's still
concurrent- you have a single rolodexL115[01:05:56] <Vexatos> ...I was making a
joke
L116[01:06:05] <Vexatos> I know how to
programming ,_,
L117[01:06:08] <smoke_th>
Yeah, but some other peers here might've not understood the
principle ?
<smoke_th>
Yeah, but some other peers here might've not understood the
principle ?L118[01:06:13] <payonel>
the problem is that in the work place, concurrency is used
"incorrectly"
<payonel>
the problem is that in the work place, concurrency is used
"incorrectly"L119[01:06:27] <payonel>
and i use those quotes heavily ?
<payonel>
and i use those quotes heavily ?L120[01:06:53] <payonel>
language is, after all, interpreted
<payonel>
language is, after all, interpretedL121[01:07:02] <payonel>
but i do appreciate the correction. i prefer to be accurate
<payonel>
but i do appreciate the correction. i prefer to be accurateL122[01:07:24] <smoke_th>
Well i mean there is lua multithreading but last thing i heard -
programmer who tried using it kept weeping in the corner after few
hours of work
<smoke_th>
Well i mean there is lua multithreading but last thing i heard -
programmer who tried using it kept weeping in the corner after few
hours of workL123[01:07:30] <smoke_th>
Well i mean there is lua multithreading but last thing i heard -
programmer who tried using it started weeping in the corner after
few hours of work
<smoke_th>
Well i mean there is lua multithreading but last thing i heard -
programmer who tried using it started weeping in the corner after
few hours of workL124[01:07:37] <payonel>
anyways, i'm going to play a bit more tonight. if you want more
details on openos, feel free to chat me up during "the
day" (where "day" is PDT)
<payonel>
anyways, i'm going to play a bit more tonight. if you want more
details on openos, feel free to chat me up during "the
day" (where "day" is PDT)L125[01:08:00] <payonel>
yes, and we do not plan to add any form of concurrency to the Lua
arch in OC ?
<payonel>
yes, and we do not plan to add any form of concurrency to the Lua
arch in OC ?L126[01:08:08] <Vexatos> payo's daylight
time
L127[01:08:09] <smoke_th>
*parallelism
<smoke_th>
*parallelismL128[01:08:11] <payonel>
any form == a true form
<payonel>
any form == a true formL129[01:08:16] <Vexatos> talk about
payollelism
L130[01:08:17] <payonel>
vex! ha, i love it
<payonel>
vex! ha, i love itL131[01:08:29] <payonel>
smoke_th: did it again
<payonel>
smoke_th: did it againL132[01:08:32] <smoke_th>
;D
<smoke_th>
;DL133[01:08:36] <payonel>
see, work, seriously, it's how ppl use the term
<payonel>
see, work, seriously, it's how ppl use the termL134[01:08:45] <payonel>
meh
<payonel>
mehL135[01:08:52] <payonel>
i'm not too old to learn
<payonel>
i'm not too old to learnL136[01:09:22] <smoke_th>
Nobody's too old to learn. Brain, in a way is like a muscle, only
you pump it using information analysis and algorithmical thinking
(as well as information storage)
<smoke_th>
Nobody's too old to learn. Brain, in a way is like a muscle, only
you pump it using information analysis and algorithmical thinking
(as well as information storage)L137[01:09:25] <payonel>
anyways, openos does have multithreading
<payonel>
anyways, openos does have multithreadingL138[01:09:35] <payonel>
it's fairly recent, and it's really freaking cool
<payonel>
it's fairly recent, and it's really freaking coolL139[01:09:41] <payonel>
but i dont think anyone is using it seriously yet
<payonel>
but i dont think anyone is using it seriously yetL140[01:09:51] <smoke_th>
@payonel mutex?
<smoke_th>
@payonel mutex?L141[01:10:17] <payonel>
there is no need for CS when cooperative yielding is the only
option
<payonel>
there is no need for CS when cooperative yielding is the only
optionL142[01:10:28] <smoke_th>
that's on the one hand
<smoke_th>
that's on the one handL143[01:10:39] <smoke_th>
but on the other - you want some sort of variable-thread
association
<smoke_th>
but on the other - you want some sort of variable-thread
associationL144[01:11:14] <smoke_th>
at least so that programmer wouldn't tear his/her hair out whenever
some rogue thread he forgot he created changes a variable and whole
execution turns into "what the hell is happening
anymore"
<smoke_th>
at least so that programmer wouldn't tear his/her hair out whenever
some rogue thread he forgot he created changes a variable and whole
execution turns into "what the hell is happening
anymore"L145[01:11:46] <smoke_th>
or rather - variable-thread protection when variable reside in
parent/multithread starter body
<smoke_th>
or rather - variable-thread protection when variable reside in
parent/multithread starter bodyL146[01:12:02] <payonel> a
mutex doesn't protect you from that
<payonel> a
mutex doesn't protect you from thatL147[01:12:34] <smoke_th>
:V sorry, i goofed. Just variable protection in general
<smoke_th>
:V sorry, i goofed. Just variable protection in generalL148[01:12:46] <smoke_th>
see - you're not the one who messes up the terms ?
<smoke_th>
see - you're not the one who messes up the terms ?L149[01:12:51] <smoke_th>
see - you're not the only one who messes up the terms ?
<smoke_th>
see - you're not the only one who messes up the terms ?L150[01:13:05] <payonel>
well even without threading, that a problem
<payonel>
well even without threading, that a problemL151[01:13:16] <payonel>
you can have a function modifying a global or a captured
reference
<payonel>
you can have a function modifying a global or a captured
referenceL152[01:13:35] <smoke_th>
or implementing something akin to C# members with get/set
<smoke_th>
or implementing something akin to C# members with get/setL153[01:13:39] <payonel> it
comes down to the implementation details, and coding
practices
<payonel> it
comes down to the implementation details, and coding
practicesL154[01:13:47] <smoke_th>
with set being private only
<smoke_th>
with set being private onlyL155[01:14:03] <payonel>
sure, but that's not the responsibility of a thread
<payonel>
sure, but that's not the responsibility of a threadL156[01:14:10] <payonel>
there are things openos threads do
<payonel>
there are things openos threads doL157[01:14:13] <smoke_th>
Yeah, that's coder's responsibility in general
<smoke_th>
Yeah, that's coder's responsibility in generalL158[01:14:30] <payonel>
for example, if you create child threads, or if you create event
listeners, or timers
<payonel>
for example, if you create child threads, or if you create event
listeners, or timersL159[01:14:38] <payonel>
those things are sandboxed to the thread
<payonel>
those things are sandboxed to the threadL160[01:14:49] <smoke_th>
sandboxed or scoped?
<smoke_th>
sandboxed or scoped?L161[01:14:53] <payonel> if
the thread is suspended, or killled, none of its children run
<payonel> if
the thread is suspended, or killled, none of its children runL162[01:15:06] <payonel>
well it is scoped to the parent process
<payonel>
well it is scoped to the parent processL163[01:15:12] <smoke_th>
Oh, right. got it.
<smoke_th>
Oh, right. got it.L164[01:15:18] <payonel>
because in Lua i don't have functional scope
<payonel>
because in Lua i don't have functional scopeL165[01:16:24] <smoke_th>
Yeah..interpreted languages and all that. Then again i think
javascript....nevermind javascript is more VM-driven language than
it is fully interpreted. or at least it's getting there by the
looks of it. Especially with asm.js and recent webassembly
developments
<smoke_th>
Yeah..interpreted languages and all that. Then again i think
javascript....nevermind javascript is more VM-driven language than
it is fully interpreted. or at least it's getting there by the
looks of it. Especially with asm.js and recent webassembly
developmentsL166[01:16:45] <Vexatos> how is that
related to Lua being interpreted >_>
L167[01:16:56] <Vexatos> Where the scope
comes from is a design choice more than anything
L168[01:17:22] <Vexatos> also please don't
talk about the third-worst language in the world ,_,
L169[01:17:41] <smoke_th>
yeah, and let's face it - lua was designed, at least initially, by
a bunch of CS class dropouts who couldn't even run array counting
from 0.
<smoke_th>
yeah, and let's face it - lua was designed, at least initially, by
a bunch of CS class dropouts who couldn't even run array counting
from 0.L170[01:17:59] <Vexatos> except the guy
who made it is a professor of computer science
L171[01:18:27] <smoke_th>
Good for him. Doesn't change the fact that some lua designs are
archaic or weird, like beforementioned array counting
<smoke_th>
Good for him. Doesn't change the fact that some lua designs are
archaic or weird, like beforementioned array countingL172[01:18:31] <Vexatos> and the array
index choice was also very much intentional >_>
L173[01:18:42] <Vexatos> There are two
reasons why you would do it
L174[01:18:53] <Vexatos> In Lua, it's
because it is a heckload more intuitive
L175[01:18:54] <payonel>
smoke_th: fyi: vex is a strong supporter for 1-based arrays
<payonel>
smoke_th: fyi: vex is a strong supporter for 1-based arraysL176[01:19:02] <Vexatos> I am not
L177[01:19:05] <Vexatos> I am very much
indifferent
L178[01:19:05] <smoke_th>
*sigh*
<smoke_th>
*sigh*L179[01:19:08] <Vexatos> But I know why it
is in Lua
L180[01:19:20] <Vexatos> I don't care
whether it's 0 or 1 based in a language
L181[01:19:24] <Vexatos> I just know
arguments for both
L182[01:19:27] <payonel> ok
fair, vex strongly feels 1-based arrays are intuitive
<payonel> ok
fair, vex strongly feels 1-based arrays are intuitiveL183[01:19:32] <Vexatos> yes
L184[01:19:35] <Vexatos> for
non-programmers
L185[01:19:42] <Vexatos> i.e. people who
maybe had maths in school
L186[01:19:58] <Vexatos> Lua is one of the
best languages to start programming with
L187[01:20:00] <smoke_th>
how do i put it....uh. yeah. Fuck em.
<smoke_th>
how do i put it....uh. yeah. Fuck em.L188[01:20:03] <Vexatos> because it is so
god damn easy
L189[01:20:05] <Vexatos> by syntax
L190[01:20:12] <payonel>
smoke_th: relax
<payonel>
smoke_th: relaxL191[01:20:36] <Vexatos> It is,
didactically, one of the best languages, in my opinion
L192[01:20:43] <smoke_th>
Nah mate, Logo is the best language to start programming with -
sure it's not very usable in irl application - but when you just
need to build up basic casue-effect algorithmic thinking for a
child - logo is the king
<smoke_th>
Nah mate, Logo is the best language to start programming with -
sure it's not very usable in irl application - but when you just
need to build up basic casue-effect algorithmic thinking for a
child - logo is the kingL193[01:20:59] <payonel>
vex knows what he's talking about. i dont fully agree, but there is
wisdom
<payonel>
vex knows what he's talking about. i dont fully agree, but there is
wisdomL194[01:21:03] <Vexatos> you can teach
someone programming basics without all the shit around it. You
maybe shouldn't, but you can, if you just want to dive right into
programming
L195[01:21:26] <Vexatos> yea I know. I'm
not a CS student but I know my share of languages and I know how
teaching works :I
L196[01:21:31] <Vexatos> (and
learning)
L197[01:21:36] <smoke_th>
and because it's so simple - it also been translated to a lot of
irl languages. there is even russian version of logo. again - it's
for covering basics in fun and intuitive weay
<smoke_th>
and because it's so simple - it also been translated to a lot of
irl languages. there is even russian version of logo. again - it's
for covering basics in fun and intuitive weayL198[01:21:52] <smoke_th>
and because it's so simple - it also been translated to a lot of
irl languages. there is even russian version of logo. again - it's
for covering basics in fun and intuitive way
<smoke_th>
and because it's so simple - it also been translated to a lot of
irl languages. there is even russian version of logo. again - it's
for covering basics in fun and intuitive wayL199[01:22:09] <Vexatos> Now then
L200[01:22:16] <Vexatos> you
L201[01:22:28] <Vexatos> are trying to
tell me that a lisp dialect could be easy to learn >_>
L202[01:22:30] <Vexatos> ok then
L203[01:22:32] *
Vexatos dies
L204[01:22:35] <smoke_th>
Neither am i, in fact i haven't even attended any sort of colledge
after graduating high-school. just self-educated.
<smoke_th>
Neither am i, in fact i haven't even attended any sort of colledge
after graduating high-school. just self-educated.L205[01:23:37] <Vexatos> Nah seriously, if
someone came to me and said "I want to write a program and I
want to do it now", without any knowledge about the
mathematical and electronic background required for programming,
I'd tell them to go Lua
L206[01:23:49] <Vexatos> which is, like,
exactly the target group of mods like CC and OC, by the way
L207[01:24:25] <Vexatos> Here's the second
point in favour of 1-based indexing
L208[01:24:33] <Vexatos> I do not think
this is a point you can make for Lua
L209[01:24:43] <Vexatos> but my new
favourite language Julia explicitly uses it
L210[01:24:53] <Vexatos> Julia is a
language for technical computing and you write it like maths
L211[01:25:03] <Vexatos> therefore, it is
as close to mathematical syntax as you can probably get
L212[01:25:23] <Vexatos> And, in maths,
the first element of a matrix happens to be A₁₁
L213[01:25:33] <Vexatos> there's your
first index
L214[01:25:52] <Vexatos> I doubt Lua makes
that point, but it definitely uses the first one
L215[01:26:04] <Vexatos> since it is a
language made for beign easy and introducing new people to
programming
L216[01:26:22] <smoke_th>
*points at sprak and else heart.break()*
<smoke_th>
*points at sprak and else heart.break()*L217[01:26:28] <Vexatos> It is used in
exactly those cases: Where people with little to no programming
background want to write stuff
L218[01:26:31] <Vexatos> e.g. computer
mods
L219[01:26:34] <Vexatos> e.g. factorio
mods
L220[01:26:40] <Vexatos> e.g. WoW
addons
L221[01:26:52] <Vexatos> etc etc etc
L222[01:27:18] <payonel>
zug
<payonel>
zugL223[01:27:19] <payonel>
vex
<payonel>
vexL224[01:27:21] <payonel>
i......
<payonel>
i......L225[01:27:28] <payonel>
i'm pained to agree with you on the matrix example
<payonel>
i'm pained to agree with you on the matrix exampleL226[01:27:33] <payonel> oh
the shame
<payonel> oh
the shameL227[01:27:39] <Vexatos> you can't
disagree, maths were there first
L228[01:27:46] <Vexatos> if your language
is made for maths
L229[01:27:49] <Vexatos> you better agree
with maths
L230[01:27:54] <Vexatos> Julia is made for
maths
L231[01:27:57] <payonel> i
dont like this conversatoin
<payonel> i
dont like this conversatoinL232[01:28:01] <payonel>
i'm leaving now
<payonel>
i'm leaving nowL233[01:28:02] <payonel>
o/
<payonel>
o/L234[01:28:09] <Vexatos> Am I destroying
your view of the world? :⁾
L235[01:29:13] <Vexatos> As you may be
able to tell, I have had this conversation once or seventeen times
before, I know arguments for and against my languages >_> and
the most abused one against Lua happens to be this one
L236[01:30:49] <smoke_th>
Well first of all - math background or physics background chumps
who don't understand basic algorithmic shouldn't be allowed
anywhere near programming - i've seen what these idiots write -
it's a shitshow
<smoke_th>
Well first of all - math background or physics background chumps
who don't understand basic algorithmic shouldn't be allowed
anywhere near programming - i've seen what these idiots write -
it's a shitshowL237[01:30:58] <Vexatos> sir
L238[01:31:11] <CompanionCube> how many
people seriously make use of LOGO's general lispiness
L239[01:31:12] <CompanionCube> als
L240[01:31:16] <Vexatos> jl is a language
for technical computing
L241[01:31:18] <CompanionCube> *also
L242[01:31:23] *
CompanionCube gets popcorn
L243[01:31:34] <smoke_th> i
said "who don't understand basic algorithmic"
<smoke_th> i
said "who don't understand basic algorithmic"L244[01:31:37] <Vexatos> you are supposed
to write high-performance multicore or GPU-intensive operations in
it
L245[01:31:45] <Vexatos> I am pretty sure
those people know what they are doing :I
L246[01:31:56] <smoke_th>
OpenCL called. told you to man up and learn some C
<smoke_th>
OpenCL called. told you to man up and learn some CL247[01:32:04] <Tazz> lol
L248[01:32:25] <Vexatos> Something
something reinvent the wheel
L249[01:32:39] <smoke_th>
Something something best Compute API around
<smoke_th>
Something something best Compute API aroundL250[01:32:46] <CompanionCube> C: jack of
many trades, master of none :3
L251[01:32:46] <Vexatos> Julia uses
those
L252[01:32:58] <Tazz> CompanionCube:
lol
L253[01:33:09] ⇦
Quits: Cervator (~Thunderbi@2601:4c1:4000:1050:8c72:6875:13eb:c4f4)
(Remote host closed the connection)
L254[01:33:15] <Vexatos> it accesses C and
FORTH computations libraries in its stdlib when necessary
L255[01:33:36] <Vexatos> it's almost just
as fast as C :P
L256[01:33:38] <smoke_th>
what you describing is syntax difference. it takes about few hours
to get used to 0-based arrays, and understand their validity. takes
another few hours to rudimentarily grasp scoping of most C-based
languages altogether. then what? there are not that many languages
which bend basic algorithmic structure of a program
<smoke_th>
what you describing is syntax difference. it takes about few hours
to get used to 0-based arrays, and understand their validity. takes
another few hours to rudimentarily grasp scoping of most C-based
languages altogether. then what? there are not that many languages
which bend basic algorithmic structure of a programL257[01:33:45] <Vexatos> This
L258[01:33:45] <Vexatos> is
L259[01:33:46] <Vexatos> not
L260[01:33:47] <Vexatos> about
L261[01:33:48] <Vexatos> getting
L262[01:33:49] <Vexatos> used
L263[01:33:49] <Vexatos> to
L264[01:33:50] <Vexatos> it
L265[01:33:54] <Vexatos> It is about
maths
L266[01:34:01] <Tazz> “It is not the
language that makes programs appear simple. It is the programmer
that make the language appear simple!”
L267[01:34:07] <Vexatos> Everyone who does
technical computing knows 0-based indexes
L268[01:34:19] <Tazz> to quote the
god
L269[01:34:24] <Vexatos> It's just that
it's not right for maths
L270[01:34:54] <smoke_th>
every c-based language is right for the maths as long as you know
how to put your function from your funky math annotation to a
regular code
<smoke_th>
every c-based language is right for the maths as long as you know
how to put your function from your funky math annotation to a
regular codeL271[01:35:06] <Vexatos> If you haven't
had further mathematics, you can't understand I guess :I
L272[01:35:21] <Tazz> smoke_th if you read
research papers for code algos then you can LOL
L273[01:35:49] <smoke_th>
you right, i didn't. doesn't change a thing. because there is a
reason it's still called a function and not subroutine
<smoke_th>
you right, i didn't. doesn't change a thing. because there is a
reason it's still called a function and not subroutineL274[01:35:58] <Vexatos> yes
L275[01:36:08] <smoke_th>
you right, i didn't. doesn't change a thing. because there is a
reason it's still called a function and not a subroutine
<smoke_th>
you right, i didn't. doesn't change a thing. because there is a
reason it's still called a function and not a subroutineL276[01:36:16] <Vexatos> and a function,
in maths, is also stuff like f(x)=2x+1
L277[01:36:21] <Vexatos> (which is valid
syntax in jl)
L278[01:36:54] <Vexatos> of course you
could do everything in C
L279[01:37:03] <smoke_th>
double f(double x) { return 2*x+1 }
<smoke_th>
double f(double x) { return 2*x+1 }L280[01:37:05] <Vexatos> But if that was a
real argument, no other language would exist
L281[01:37:06] <smoke_th>
what's your point?
<smoke_th>
what's your point?L282[01:37:19] <Vexatos> people would not
pay €2000 for MATLAB
L283[01:37:50] <Vexatos> if your argument
was valid, why is MATLAB so successful >_>
L284[01:37:58] <Vexatos> despite being
this expensive
L285[01:38:16] <Tazz> bloom(img) = img ∪
blur({ px ∈ img | px > 128 & px < 255})
L286[01:38:26] <Vexatos> it's _the_ go to
technical computing language
L287[01:38:32] <Vexatos> Tazz, now that is
some math syntax
L288[01:38:45] <Tazz> Vexatos: func for
bloom shaders
L289[01:38:49] <Tazz> using set
notation
L290[01:38:53] <smoke_th>
even if it was a real argument - there are still would've been
other languages - not for the reasons you described. Garbage
collection is a thing. :V, also C doesn't support classes so
complex scoping is problematic and requires alot of additional
tracking
<smoke_th>
even if it was a real argument - there are still would've been
other languages - not for the reasons you described. Garbage
collection is a thing. :V, also C doesn't support classes so
complex scoping is problematic and requires alot of additional
trackingL291[01:38:53] <MichiBot> ALOT: http://tinyurl.com/y42zurt
L292[01:38:58] <CompanionCube> the
starting index doesn't matter as long as there's a reason other
than 'because'
L293[01:39:04] <Vexatos> ^this
L294[01:39:26] <Tazz> lol GC can be
simulated or written
L295[01:39:28] <Vexatos> reason for
0-based: Because computers. reason for 1-based: a) more intuitive
b) maths
L296[01:39:43] <Vexatos> it's not better
or worse than the other >_>
L297[01:39:47] <Vexatos> at all
L298[01:40:21] <Vexatos> @smoke_th all the
stuff you explained, Julia has, so :I
L299[01:40:35] <CompanionCube> Vexatos:
reason 2 for 0-based: other languages/programmers.
L300[01:40:43] <Vexatos> "I am used
to it"
L301[01:40:46] <Vexatos> not a good
argument
L302[01:40:48] <Vexatos> at all
L303[01:41:06] <smoke_th>
Okay smarty pants. Code me an arcanoid on brainfuck.
<smoke_th>
Okay smarty pants. Code me an arcanoid on brainfuck.L304[01:41:17] <Vexatos> that's like still
writing derivatives as f'(x) instead of df/dx
L305[01:41:19] <CompanionCube> Vexatos: i
never said it had to be a *good* reason ;)
L306[01:41:21] <Vexatos> just because
"you are used to it"
L307[01:41:50] <Vexatos> @smoke_th I never
said 0-based indexing was bad
L308[01:42:02] <Vexatos> All I am saying
is that there are very, very good reasons to do it
differently
L309[01:42:15] <Vexatos> In specific
cases
L310[01:42:23] <Vexatos> a) didactic and
b) mathematical purposes
L311[01:42:33] <Vexatos> not all languages
do either of tose
L312[01:42:35] <Vexatos> those*
L313[01:42:43] <Tazz> if you want a GC for
C here https://gist.github.com/s0cks/cbe9d2759ae5fed75590494be3558b41
L314[01:42:48] <Tazz> knock yourself out
:3
L315[01:43:00] <Vexatos> It's gc.c
D:
L316[01:43:01] <smoke_th>
you used "familiarity is a bad argument" argument. that
on itself - is a horrid argument because you forgetting paradigm
logic and stuff which works is just works - aka Good UX is
benefactor.
<smoke_th>
you used "familiarity is a bad argument" argument. that
on itself - is a horrid argument because you forgetting paradigm
logic and stuff which works is just works - aka Good UX is
benefactor.L317[01:43:03] <CompanionCube> Tazz: or
just go Boehm
L318[01:43:25] <Vexatos> @smoke_th 1-based
indexing is the very epitome of good UX
L319[01:43:35] <Vexatos> because you write
your code just like you would write your papers
L320[01:43:35] <Tazz> CompanionCube: true
but boehm is more of a lib than a drop in like that
L321[01:43:42] <Vexatos> and just like you
would write your maths
L322[01:43:47] <Vexatos> on paper or a
blackboard
L323[01:43:52] <Vexatos> you know the
formulas
L324[01:43:54] <Vexatos> you read
them
L325[01:44:03] <Vexatos> and you can write
them into the program almost 1-to-1
L326[01:44:10] <Vexatos> because the
language is written like maths
L327[01:44:13] <Tazz> pretty much
lol
L328[01:44:13] <Vexatos> sounds like good
UX to me
L329[01:44:29] <Tazz> cause like when it
comes down to it everything in programming is based off of
maths
L330[01:44:39] <Tazz> everything is just
an offset of some register or address
L331[01:44:40] <Vexatos> especially
technical computing
L332[01:44:51] <Vexatos> where you have
silly maths to do
L333[01:44:52] <Tazz> everything is loaded
via numeric representations
L334[01:45:16] <Tazz> packed into chunks
of mem called structs and passed around like candy
L335[01:45:43] <Vexatos> I hardly count
numeric addition as maths >_>
L336[01:45:53] <Tazz> lol Vexatos
L337[01:46:21] <Vexatos> maths is stuff
like solving schrödinger equations
L338[01:46:33] <Tazz> lol
L339[01:46:51] <Tazz> or like my bloom
shader func?
L340[01:46:53] <Tazz> lol
L341[01:46:54] <Vexatos> numeric
maths*
L342[01:46:55] <Vexatos> yea
L343[01:46:56] ⇦
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L344[01:47:20] <Tazz> which is accurate
assuming one provides a set of data which correspond to pixel
data
L345[01:49:11] <Vexatos> anyways, got to
go
L346[01:49:12] <Vexatos> bye bye
L347[01:49:20] <Tazz> night Vexatos
L348[01:49:21] ⇦
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L350[01:52:50] <CompanionCube> 1 become: 0
" if this was possible imagine how badly it would break things
"
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L354[02:14:02] <Tazz> lol tell me if this
sounds like a good idea: I want to use my JIT I wrote to compile
assembly code in Java for a computer mod
L355[02:14:13] <Tazz> s/computer
mod/OC
L356[02:14:13] <MichiBot> <Tazz> lol
tell me if this sounds like a good idea: I want to use my JIT I
wrote to compile assembly code in Java for a OC
L357[02:14:34] <Tazz> depends on my
interest post getting these shenanigans working
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L360[03:01:32] <Lizzy> ~oc
event
<Lizzy> ~oc
eventL361[03:01:32] <ocdoc> http://ocd.cil.li/api:event
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L366[03:17:47] <Izaya> Tazz: apparently
there's an integrated circuit mod that compiles java code
L367[03:18:07] <Tazz> lol nice
L368[03:18:23] <Tazz> i was referring to
like native code doe
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L371[04:02:19] <Izaya> Tazz: what if the
server is running on ARM?
L372[04:02:48] <Tazz> Izaya: my JIT
supports a few arm archs and x86 & x64
L373[04:03:21] <Izaya> what if it's
running on MIPS or RISC-V?
L374[04:03:37] <Tazz> no MIPS or RISC-V
support no
L375[04:03:58] <Tazz> do I care? prolly
not unless there is an obvious demmand for it
L376[04:04:01] <Izaya> seems somewhat less
than ideal then
L377[04:04:22] <Izaya> ideally you'd turn
it into llvm bytecode then compile that
L378[04:04:46] <Izaya> or something along
those lines
L379[04:05:14] <Tazz> nah
L380[04:05:23] <Tazz> ideally Ill use my
JIT
L381[04:05:36] <Tazz> it has its own flow
graph compiler and supports a large enough variety of
platforms
L382[04:05:38] <Izaya> ok
L383[04:05:57] <Tazz> Ill be able to
quickly get it done with that otherwise Iw ould have to learn llvm
and I hate fucking with C++ libraries
L384[04:06:05] <Izaya> not shitting on
your idea I'm just saying it's not hugely portable as-is
L385[04:06:18] <Tazz> howso?
L386[04:06:24] <Tazz> support all desktop
types
L387[04:06:33] <Tazz> and some smaller
devices
L388[04:06:58] <Tazz> but not like sets of
archs that people rarely use besides the purely hardcore user
L389[04:07:06] <Izaya> no RISC-V support
will be an issue for me personally soon
L390[04:07:09] <Tazz> and at that point
add the stuff himself
L391[04:07:24] <Tazz> its not hard its
like adding a couple .cc files into the thing
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L403[06:51:41] <MGR> We
could begin by just looking at Gigabyte’s promo images, which show
that the X299 Aorus Gaming 7 has more RGB lighting than any of the
other boards we’ve tested. LEDs line all five PCIe x16-length slots
as well as all eight DIMM slots.
<MGR> We
could begin by just looking at Gigabyte’s promo images, which show
that the X299 Aorus Gaming 7 has more RGB lighting than any of the
other boards we’ve tested. LEDs line all five PCIe x16-length slots
as well as all eight DIMM slots.L404[06:51:49] <MGR>
Because more RGB = Better?
<MGR>
Because more RGB = Better?L405[06:52:34] <Izaya> RGB is pretty
useless
L406[06:52:42] <Izaya> but it pushes costs
up so \o/
L407[06:52:48] <Izaya> and people still
buy it
L408[06:53:39] <MGR> I like
RGB lighting, but there's a limit to how many lights should be on a
part
<MGR> I like
RGB lighting, but there's a limit to how many lights should be on a
partL409[06:54:03] <Izaya> Zero. RGB strips
are cheap.
L410[06:54:13] <MGR>
No
<MGR>
NoL411[06:57:23] <MGR> I'd
prefer to have my LEDs embedded, and not have to deal with light
strips
<MGR> I'd
prefer to have my LEDs embedded, and not have to deal with light
stripsL412[06:59:02] <Izaya> Eh, whatever, they
make boards for the people that want shiny LEDs and they make
boards for people that don't care and want a functioning
board.
L413[06:59:07] <Izaya> And that's true for
every component.
L414[06:59:15] <Izaya> RGB RAM is
unforgivable though.
L415[06:59:39] <MGR> I
personally think it's cool, but I don't have that kind of
money
<MGR> I
personally think it's cool, but I don't have that kind of
moneyL416[06:59:58] <MGR> And
I'll probably never end up buying it, because I'll always have
better areas to spend that money on
<MGR> And
I'll probably never end up buying it, because I'll always have
better areas to spend that money onL417[07:00:31] <MGR> Plus,
with most products I've seen, you can turn the LEDs off in
software.
<MGR> Plus,
with most products I've seen, you can turn the LEDs off in
software.L418[07:04:26] <Corded> * <Gavle>
doesn't buy cases with windows and thus ignores RGB LEDs in his
decisions
L419[07:06:01]
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L422[07:32:47] <MGR>
http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/X299-AORUS-Gaming-9-rev-10#kf
There is an impressive amount of marketing in that page
<MGR>
http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/X299-AORUS-Gaming-9-rev-10#kf
There is an impressive amount of marketing in that pageL423[07:33:12] <MGR> I, of
course, now want to buy it. I, of course, don't have the money to
buy it.
<MGR> I, of
course, now want to buy it. I, of course, don't have the money to
buy it.L424[07:39:11] <Skye> It's
funny
<Skye> It's
funnyL425[07:39:21] <Skye> The
best air coolers are ugly
<Skye> The
best air coolers are uglyL426[07:39:27] <Skye>
Noctua
<Skye>
NoctuaL427[07:39:41] <Skye> So of
course people like me use them.
<Skye> So of
course people like me use them.L428[07:39:52] <MGR> I had
a Noctua D15
<MGR> I had
a Noctua D15L429[07:40:06] <MGR> @Skye
It's not that ugly, just gigantic
<MGR> @Skye
It's not that ugly, just giganticL430[07:40:17] <Skye> Beige
and brown
<Skye> Beige
and brownL431[07:40:32] <MGR> That's
a bleh in my book, but not ugly
<MGR> That's
a bleh in my book, but not uglyL432[07:40:41] <Skye>
Well
<Skye>
WellL433[07:40:50] <Skye> For
the people who want RGB
<Skye> For
the people who want RGBL434[07:41:37] <Skye> My
computer is brown and black and various shades of blue, with some
transparent dark green and also red.
<Skye> My
computer is brown and black and various shades of blue, with some
transparent dark green and also red.L435[07:42:22] <MGR>
...
<MGR>
...L436[07:42:33] <MGR> I sold
my D15 and got a liquid cooler with an RGB pump
<MGR> I sold
my D15 and got a liquid cooler with an RGB pumpL437[07:44:24] <Skye> I
don't care about looks much
<Skye> I
don't care about looks muchL438[07:44:38] <Skye> My
computer is a black monolith
<Skye> My
computer is a black monolithL439[07:44:53] <MGR> For
me, looks take second place to performance
<MGR> For
me, looks take second place to performanceL440[07:44:59] <MGR> Unless
it looks really REALLY bad
<MGR> Unless
it looks really REALLY badL441[07:45:02] <Skye> With
some strange colors inside because I got the cheapest parts
<Skye> With
some strange colors inside because I got the cheapest partsL442[07:45:08] <Skye>
Well
<Skye>
WellL443[07:45:14] <Skye> Best
value for money
<Skye> Best
value for moneyL444[07:45:18] <MGR> That's
also important
<MGR> That's
also importantL445[07:45:28] <Saphire> https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2017/07/adobe-flash-update.html
L446[07:45:33] <Saphire>
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
L447[07:48:00] <Syrren> Saphire: isn't it
effectively EOLd already though?
L448[07:49:09] <Saphire> Now it's
officially EOLed
L449[07:49:10] <Saphire> HAHA
L450[08:05:53] ⇦
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L453[08:38:18] <Corded> * <Skye>
headpats @Saphire
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L455[08:47:12] <MGR>
Mimiru, Ryzen 3 is out
<MGR>
Mimiru, Ryzen 3 is outL456[08:49:21]
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L457[08:57:48] <Inari> How Zen is it
though?
L458[09:00:20] <MGR> AMD is
pretty Zen, but I've seen people on both sides frothing at the
mouth
<MGR> AMD is
pretty Zen, but I've seen people on both sides frothing at the
mouthL459[09:00:30] <MGR> I'm
just happy for more competition
<MGR> I'm
just happy for more competitionL460[09:08:45] ⇦
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L464[09:43:26] <Michiyo>
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
L465[09:43:27] <Michiyo> it's hot
L466[09:43:41] <Inari> I wish it was hot
here xD
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L470[09:45:34] <Michiyo> %w 72396
L471[09:45:34] <MichiBot> Current weather
for Wynne, AR Current Temp: 84.5°F/29.2°C Feels Like: 105°F/40°C
Current Humidity: 100% Wind: From the SSW 4.0 Mph/6.4 Km/h
Conditions: Partly Cloudy
L472[09:45:38] <Michiyo> 84...
L473[09:45:39] <Michiyo> bs
L474[09:45:43] <Michiyo> 840? maybe
L475[09:46:05] <Michiyo> 100%
humidity...
L476[09:46:16] <Temia> Temperature: The
self-cleaning cycle on an oven is cooler than this
L477[09:46:27] <Michiyo> lol
L478[09:46:49] <MGR>
Michiyo, that's not good
<MGR>
Michiyo, that's not goodL479[09:46:57] <MGR> And
it's truck day, correct?
<MGR> And
it's truck day, correct?L480[09:47:02]
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L481[09:47:08] <Michiyo> truck is done,
thankfully
L482[09:47:14] <MGR> Did
you die?
<MGR> Did
you die?L483[09:47:27] <Michiyo> it was here when
I got here, POS at the store I get my breakfast was down, so I
couldn't use my card...
L484[09:47:32] <Michiyo> had to wait til
after the truck to eat.
L485[09:47:38] <Michiyo> and no... I'm
still somewhat alive.
L486[09:48:28] <MGR>
Wow
<MGR>
WowL487[09:48:34] <MGR> Did
you at least have your inhaler?
<MGR> Did
you at least have your inhaler?L488[09:50:18] <Michiyo> yeah
L489[09:51:33] <MGR> Well,
it wasn't all bad at least
<MGR> Well,
it wasn't all bad at leastL490[09:51:48] <MGR> So,
yay
<MGR> So,
yayL491[09:52:55] <MGR> Oh,
side note Michiyo, Bristol Ridge released
<MGR> Oh,
side note Michiyo, Bristol Ridge releasedL492[09:53:05] <Temia> Also Skye
L493[09:53:07] <MGR> I
wanted to tell you, because I know you love AMD's APUs ?
<MGR> I
wanted to tell you, because I know you love AMD's APUs ?L494[09:53:11] <Temia> At least your
computer isn't a motley of red and green overlaid with stripes of
purple and dark brown.
L495[09:53:34] <MGR>
Purple? What's purple?
<MGR>
Purple? What's purple?L496[09:53:41] <Skye> Temia, o_O
L497[09:54:02] <Temia> :D
L498[09:54:30] <MGR> Temia,
what part of your computer is purple?
<MGR> Temia,
what part of your computer is purple?L499[10:01:54] *
Izaya likes his grey and black of steel and spraypaint
L500[10:02:35] <Inari> I kind want a cute
computer case still
L501[10:02:40] <Inari> But they're all
kinda the same :|
L502[10:02:48] <Inari> a black box
L503[10:02:51] <MGR> Mine
has a lot of black with red accents
<MGR> Mine
has a lot of black with red accentsL504[10:02:52] <Inari> sometimes with some
fancy lights added
L505[10:03:04] <Inari> Sometimes a white
box instead
L506[10:03:15] <Izaya> Inari: buy the
barbie one /s
L507[10:03:35] <Izaya> in all seriousness
those are expensive as hell now
L508[10:03:42] <MGR> I saw
a Hello Kitty case once
<MGR> I saw
a Hello Kitty case onceL509[10:05:06] <MGR> Izaya,
btw, my friend has RGB RAM
<MGR> Izaya,
btw, my friend has RGB RAML510[10:06:21] <Izaya> waste of
money
L511[10:07:51] <MGR>
Yep
<MGR>
YepL512[10:07:52] <Inari> Yeah, making pc
cases cute seems to in most cases amount to "lets make it pink
and stick hello kitty onto it" :P
L513[10:07:56] <MGR> But
he's wasted a lot of money
<MGR> But
he's wasted a lot of moneyL514[10:08:16] <MGR> I
built him a computer, and then he had me pretty much rebuild
everything 6 months later
<MGR> I
built him a computer, and then he had me pretty much rebuild
everything 6 months laterL515[10:08:19]
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L517[10:08:50] <Inari> https://www.dhresource.com/600x600/f2/albu/g5/M00/30/98/rBVaI1juY9uAXCbFAAB6HiATJ_A435.jpg
cute
L518[10:09:03] <MGR> He
also doesn't need that high of a RAM speed
<MGR> He
also doesn't need that high of a RAM speedL519[10:09:44] <MGR> Side
bonus, I got a lot of parts for free
<MGR> Side
bonus, I got a lot of parts for freeL520[10:10:23] <MGR> He
gave his brother the RAM and monitor, but I got an i5-6500,
Gigabyte B150 motherboard, and an MSI R7 370 GPU for free
<MGR> He
gave his brother the RAM and monitor, but I got an i5-6500,
Gigabyte B150 motherboard, and an MSI R7 370 GPU for freeL521[10:11:28] <Izaya> I got both my GPUs
from a friend that plays a lot of WOW
L522[10:11:53] <Izaya> he upgraded to dual
980Tis, so I got his 690s
L523[10:11:59] <MGR>
Yep
<MGR>
YepL524[10:12:14] <MGR> My
1080Ti will be sitting in my computer for, hopefully, 5 years
<MGR> My
1080Ti will be sitting in my computer for, hopefully, 5 yearsL525[10:12:21] <MGR> That's
when the next major overhaul is due
<MGR> That's
when the next major overhaul is dueL526[10:12:56] <Syrren> here's hoping we
get more games with "native" SLI support
L527[10:13:11] <Syrren> (i.e. via
vulkan)
L528[10:13:23] <MGR>
Multi-GPU is dying slowly
<MGR>
Multi-GPU is dying slowlyL529[10:13:23] <MalkContent> oc dev for
1.12 seems somewhat functional
L530[10:13:28] <MalkContent> anybody
playing with that yet?
L531[10:13:36] <MGR> 2-way
SLI is the best we can hope for these days
<MGR> 2-way
SLI is the best we can hope for these daysL532[10:13:53] <Izaya> If my remaining 690
survives I won't replace it till I can get a RISC-V or POWER
box
L533[10:13:53] <Syrren> 2-way is the only
supported configuration for "classic" SLI
L534[10:14:37] <Syrren> more than 2-way
can be done if the application/game explicitly supports it, as
opposed to relying on the GPU itself (and/or drivers?) to
loadbalance frames
L535[10:14:48] <MGR>
Syrren, yes, but I don't think that will happen
<MGR>
Syrren, yes, but I don't think that will happenL536[10:15:05] <MGR>
MalkContent, is 1.12 dev new? I checked the jenkins a week ago, and
it wasn't up
<MGR>
MalkContent, is 1.12 dev new? I checked the jenkins a week ago, and
it wasn't upL537[10:15:20] <MalkContent> yea,
fairly
L538[10:15:24] <MGR> Ah
ok
<MGR> Ah
okL539[10:15:28] <Syrren> it won't totally
die because compute-intensive non-game stuff
L540[10:15:28] <Corded> * <MGR>
gives an evil grin
L541[10:15:30] <MalkContent> i think i
tried the first version ~5 days ago?
L542[10:15:36] <MalkContent> its at the
third now
L543[10:15:40] <MGR>
Michiyo, 1.12 OpenSecurity please?
<MGR>
Michiyo, 1.12 OpenSecurity please?L544[10:15:52] ⇦
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L545[10:15:59] <MGR>
Syrren, is that run over SLI though?
<MGR>
Syrren, is that run over SLI though?L546[10:16:05] <MalkContent> item textures
are black n (yellow) purple squaaares
L547[10:16:18] <MalkContent> but creatrix
boots
L548[10:16:22] <MalkContent> models are
there
L549[10:16:59] <MGR> psh,
you're such a square
<MGR> psh,
you're such a squareL550[10:16:59] <MGR>
Hah
<MGR>
HahL551[10:17:01] <Izaya> think the only game
I've played with quad-SLI support is Skyrim
L552[10:17:21] <Izaya> and it was running
ENBoost so
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L554[10:17:30]
zsh sets mode: +o on Michiyo
L555[10:20:12] <Syrren> @MGR: I remember
some raytracing or rendering thing which could do up to
quad-SLI
L556[10:21:08] <MGR>
Syrren, I was not aware of that. I thought most compute tasks ran
everything over PCIe or NVLink. I'm not in that field though, so
I'm far from an expert.
<MGR>
Syrren, I was not aware of that. I thought most compute tasks ran
everything over PCIe or NVLink. I'm not in that field though, so
I'm far from an expert.L557[10:22:52] <Syrren> @MGR: depends on
what kind of compute. I've done deep-learning on (non-SLI) Titans
at uni
L558[10:23:01] <MGR> That
makes sense
<MGR> That
makes senseL559[10:23:32] <Syrren> that box had 3
titans and one other card... it was hard to resist the temptation
to ask the admin whether they tried Crysis 3 on it
L560[10:24:13] <MalkContent> i feel like
that's the default way to check if its working
L561[10:25:36] <Syrren> yeah, but imagine
your academic supervisor walking in on you doing that
L562[10:25:39] <Syrren> awkward.gif
L563[10:27:10] <MalkContent> "stress
test, the game was cheaper than the software"
L564[10:27:21] <MalkContent> dont even
have to lie too much for that :D
L565[10:27:25] <Syrren> :-P
L566[10:28:23] <MalkContent> plus at least
around here its pretty common to get away with a very healthy
amount of fuck-around-ery
L567[10:28:27] <MalkContent> at uni
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L569[10:38:46] <MGR>
Heh
<MGR>
HehL570[10:39:18] <MGR> Ashes
of the Singularity is also pretty demanding
<MGR> Ashes
of the Singularity is also pretty demandingL571[10:40:24] <Michiyo> P.S. @MGR ._.
fuck off. kthx :D
L572[10:40:31] <MGR>
?
<MGR>
?L573[10:40:57] <Kilobyte> Syrren: i'd have
asked. most admins at uni are just like us
L574[10:41:03] <MGR>
Heheheh
<MGR>
HehehehL575[10:41:07] <Kilobyte> (well, in fact i
AM admin at an uni xD)
L576[10:42:15] <Kilobyte> and i can
confirm what MalkContent said, you can get away with quite a
bit
L577[10:42:56] <Syrren> :-P
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L579[10:44:55] <Kilobyte> the other day a
guy from the NOC did a talk on the university network (as guest
talk as part of the computer networks lecture), that was quite
interesting
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L596[13:59:19] <payonel> o/
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L599[14:13:42] <MGR> Hello
payonel, how are you?
<MGR> Hello
payonel, how are you?L600[14:14:46] ⇦
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L601[14:21:23] <payonel> doing well
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L605[14:44:10] <Inari> payonel: https://i.imgur.com/pag0lnv.mp4
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L608[14:56:03] <payonel> Inari: ha,
cute
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L611[15:00:39] <payonel> anyone like
datacenters?
L612[15:00:47] <payonel> i took a tour
with work today of our datacenter
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L614[15:10:35] <MGR>
Datacenters sound cool
<MGR>
Datacenters sound coolL615[15:17:18] <vifino> payonel: I do. I
have one in my bathroom.
L616[15:17:37] <payonel> haha
L617[15:17:48] <vifino> (spare bathroom,
not the one i actually use....)
L618[15:18:33] <vifino> At least I can say
that not everyone has 10GbE and fibrechannel in their
bathrooms.
L619[15:19:23] <vifino> So do tell,
payonel.
L620[15:19:31] <vifino> Sure hope it holds
up to my bathroom.
L621[15:22:39] <vifino> (Might have scared
them off...)
L622[15:23:22] *
Skye pokes payonel
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L624[15:24:24] <payonel> i don't know the
bandwidth of our datacenter. but it's not small
L625[15:40:27] <payonel> we have
approximately 20 cabinets of racks
L626[15:41:44] <payonel> with 48 10GB/s
lines each, and 10s of petabytes of storage. but mainly we process
data, we only store for testing and automation
L627[15:42:53] <payonel> we are connected
to the main backbone of the city
L628[15:44:05] <payonel> anyone have a
screenshot of a virtual datacenter built with oc parts i can share
with our senior IT manager that took me to the datacenter
today
L629[15:44:36] <Skye> payonel, there was
one in BTM...
L630[15:44:43] <Skye> I think Izaya has a
few
L631[15:45:34] <payonel> i'll upload some
of the pics i took in a bit
L632[15:46:02] <payonel> note that our
datacenter is not a warehouse - we rent a cage in a secured
building
L633[15:48:00] <Temia> everyone knows the
tastiest computers are wild-caught anyway
L634[15:48:37] <payonel> :/
L635[15:49:25] <Temia> :3
L636[15:49:43] <Skye> Temia, I nibbled on
my IRL friend's laptop
L637[15:50:26] <Temia> \o/
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L639[16:26:23] <vifino> payonel: i have a
nice screenshot somewhere
L640[16:26:25] <vifino> lemme look
L641[16:26:49] <vifino> actually wait,
other laptop, nvm
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L647[16:41:45] <payonel> vifino: https://cloud.pig64.com/index.php/s/87sZuTqnzKvXquH
L648[16:46:16] *
Michiyo pokes payonel's ssl certs
L649[16:46:24] <payonel> i dont want to
pay for that
L650[16:46:25] <payonel> :)
L651[16:46:29] <payonel> though i've heard
there are free options
L652[16:46:40] <AmandaC> let's encrypt is
god
L653[16:46:51] <payonel> ?
L654[16:46:56] <Michiyo> yeah, Let's
Encrypt is great
L655[16:47:08] <Michiyo> free certs, 90
day expire though, but you can automate renewal
L656[16:47:19] <payonel> linky?
L657[16:47:21] <Michiyo> it's what I use
for 99% of my stuff
L658[16:47:33] <Michiyo> https://letsencrypt.org/
L659[16:48:03] <payonel> ok i'll look into
that
L660[16:48:22] <Michiyo> I like it A LOT
more than startcom's ssl...
L661[16:49:18] <AmandaC> Esp. since
startcom is going to be deauthorised by Mozilla's CA registry
(whieh pretty much all software that isn't MS/ Apple uses) sometime
soon
L662[16:49:46] <Michiyo> Ah, yeah.. I
remember reading about that..
L663[16:50:25] <Michiyo> Java has never
trusted Startcom, they started trusting LE in 8u91 or
something..
L664[16:50:32] <Michiyo> (Wish it had been
a bit sooner though... lol)
L665[16:52:20] <AmandaC> Michiyo: given
how forceful Java is about updates on Windows / Mac it's not too
worrying, tbh
L666[16:52:56] <AmandaC> Well,
windows.
L667[16:53:22] <Michiyo> yeah.. I've some
some ANCIENT java installs from Mac users :P
L668[16:53:24] <AmandaC> a while back they
removed the jvm from the mac installs. You need the JDK to run
arbitary java apps, not the NPAPI plugin nobody uses, or will ever
use
L669[16:53:48] <AmandaC> And the JDK
doesn't auto-update, because Fuck You™
L670[16:53:53] <Izaya> openjdk builds for
Windows don't have the nagware
L671[16:54:22] <Izaya> and considering the
only thing people tend to do with java is minecraft
L672[16:54:40] <Izaya> certainly the only
thing I use it for on Windows
L673[16:55:29] <Izaya> oracle java is
obnoxious
L674[16:55:36] <AmandaC> historically
openjdk didn't work with minecraft. Might have changed in the last
like, 5 years though
L675[16:56:14] <Izaya> yup
L676[16:56:18] <Izaya> only version I
use
L677[16:57:43] <Temia> Yeah.
L678[16:57:54] <Temia> OpenJDK 7 and 8
work pretty smoothly from my experience.
L679[16:58:26] <Temia> Both for server and
client use, astoundingly.
L680[16:58:38] <Izaya> ^
L681[16:58:48] <Izaya> never had an issue
caused by OpenJDK
L682[16:59:00] <Izaya> which makes sense
because it's mostly the same code
L683[16:59:35] <Temia> I did encounter one
issue with a memory leak on an old 1.7 pack under OpenJDK7, but I
didn't test it under Oracle JDK7 -- wasn't an issue under OpenJDK 8
either way
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L685[17:16:03] <payonel> Izaya: you might
have a btm screenshot of some server racks
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L689[17:42:48] <payonel> Izaya ?
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L693[18:07:42] <AmandaC> He's dead,
jim
L694[18:13:30] <Izaya> ^
L695[18:14:27] <AmandaC> They're life, but
not as we know it!
L696[18:15:38] <Izaya> payonel: I mean I
could make some
L697[18:15:53] <Izaya> but my current OC
server setup is a lot of tower cases
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L702[20:01:12] <Kodos>
https/i.imgur.com/AMxgzdq.png
<Kodos>
https/i.imgur.com/AMxgzdq.pngL703[20:01:14] <zer0az> Anyone any good
with running multi-screen?
L705[20:02:18] <Kodos>
There we go
<Kodos>
There we goL706[20:21:33] <Izaya> Kodos: C and Python
in one?
L707[20:32:23] <Dudblockman> I like that brace style
<Dudblockman> I like that brace styleL708[20:32:30] <Dudblockman> I should start using
that
<Dudblockman> I should start using
thatL709[20:40:25] ⇦
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L720[23:19:16] <BobbyTables2012> hi
L721[23:26:36] <FLORANA> oh
god that syntax orgnization image looks terible
<FLORANA> oh
god that syntax orgnization image looks teribleL722[23:30:55]
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