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L8[01:18:09] <JVFoxy> mmm... anyone use
KAS/KIS?
L9[01:21:30] <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit
fiddly at the start
L10[01:24:46] <JVFoxy> fiddly is putting
things lightly
L11[01:25:28] <JVFoxy> so.. I go to connect
a port to the side of a plane, something happens and whole plane
just blows up. As well as jump about 50 meters into hte air
L12[01:25:44] <Althego> hehe
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L15[01:36:14] <JVFoxy> landing
wheels...
L16[01:36:27] <JVFoxy> retracted, plane
sitting on ground, its perfectly fine
L17[01:36:58] <JVFoxy> if its sitting on
the wheels, you so much as take something off or attach, kiss plane
goodbye as it spontaneiously blows up. :\
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L20[01:48:40] <JVFoxy> ok... turns out may
not be KIS/KAS... some reason my plane just blows up when it
stages.. something to do with the wings
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L23[01:59:37] <JVFoxy> uff.. ok seems to be
issue with these FAT-455 wings
L24[02:00:11] <JVFoxy> not even clipping, I
stage something off the nose, 455's just fall off... even with
rigid and autostrut. :\
L25[02:01:00] <Gasher[work]> hm, these
wings tended to detach on landing when i had wheels attached to
them
L26[02:04:36] <JVFoxy> flying... I shoot
the nose cone off no problems
L27[02:04:55] <JVFoxy> sitting belly on the
ground its fine..
L28[02:05:00] <JVFoxy> sitting on wheels
out.. something causes the whole thing to jump and boom
L29[02:07:04] <Gasher[work]> you have
wheels attached to these large wings, right?
L30[02:07:06] <JVFoxy> sort of annoying, I
was really hoping to cargo plane fuel to a depot later in a career.
Though if plane just blows up when I so much as connect a
hose...
L31[02:07:13] <JVFoxy> no.. side of the
body
L32[02:07:18] <Gasher[work]> ah
L33[02:07:24] <Gasher[work]> well,
weird
L34[02:07:34] <JVFoxy> I have two smaller
ones on the nose, dual wheel single axel on sides of body
L35[02:07:46] <JVFoxy> its a highwing cargo
plane
L36[02:08:08] <Gasher[work]> maybe plane is
too heavy for these wheels?
L37[02:08:13] <JVFoxy> ya.. something
causes a shock through the plane and wings just blow
L38[02:08:52] <Gasher[work]> there was an
issue with wheels starting to jump if they were overloaded because
of spring tension and damping being inadequate
L39[02:09:23] <Gasher[work]> also as i
noticed the huge wings' connections are "fragile"
L40[02:11:53] <JVFoxy> testing a eew ideas
out
L41[02:13:22] <JVFoxy> first I thought
because I have engines mounted on wings too
L42[02:13:30] <JVFoxy> took them off.
nope..
L43[02:13:51] <JVFoxy> it acts like
something slams the wings and knocks them off. Though this time,
something was pushing the remains of hte plane's body around on the
ground
L44[02:18:15] <JVFoxy> ok nose cap, no
ejection force, no engines on wings, all wheels are double tired.
on runway, landed, drop nose cone. its like the craft bounces off
the ground in a very hard jerk like something hit it from above.
Then wings fly off
L45[02:18:42] <JVFoxy> take wings off. try
same setup, nose slightly bounces, but doesn't act like nose cone
smashed it like an astroid
L46[02:25:51] <Althego> never put engines
on wings
L47[02:26:09] <Gasher[work]> why
L48[02:26:16] <Althego> because of
flexing
L49[02:26:28] <Althego> ok, with autostruts
you can help a lot
L50[02:26:48] <Gasher[work]> that's kinda
obvious thing
L51[02:26:54] <JVFoxy> even with
autostruts, I get structural failures from wings, pilons control
surfaces, body....
L52[02:27:21] <Gasher[work]> i mean, it's
not 'never put' ,just 'beware of flexing'
L53[02:27:21] <Althego> but i usually put
the engines on the body and offset them under the wing
L54[02:27:26] <JVFoxy> even added a few of
my own struts tough seems to have made things even worse. plane
jumped way higher
L55[02:27:29] <Althego> that way they look
like they were on the wing
L56[02:27:33] <Gasher[work]> that's
cheating
L57[02:27:48] <Althego> that has additional
benefit of less modifications if i change the wing
L58[02:27:53] <Althego> i can just leavethe
engines in place
L59[02:27:55] <JVFoxy> took engines off to
test.. still caused wings to rip off
L60[02:28:05] <Althego> autostruts are also
cheating
L61[02:28:12] <Althego> invisible metal
rods
L62[02:29:29] <Althego> so for example i
give a little angle for the wings so that they produce lift even
with 0 aoa
L63[02:29:52] <Althego> but if the engine
are on them too i also need to change the engine rotation, and for
every change in the wings i have to follow that
L64[02:30:09] <JVFoxy> ok so.. stage a
thing on hte plane.. fat-455s fail, then poof.. gone. plane goes
nuts after
L65[02:30:18] <Althego> hehe
L66[02:30:25] <Althego> some parts
clipping<
L67[02:30:26] <Althego> >
L68[02:30:38] <Althego> ?
L69[02:31:33] <Althego> are there some
parts vibrating before the explosion?
L71[02:35:15] <Althego> lol
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L77[02:41:31] <JVFoxy> no.. parts are
fine
L78[02:42:06] <JVFoxy> took all but the
455's off, then made so they were unclipped...
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L81[02:48:42] <Eddi|zuHause> Gasher[work]:
that second one looks like it's in the middle of
transformation
L82[02:48:56] <Gasher[work]> yeah - to a
pile in a crater
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L84[02:49:11] ***
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L86[02:55:16] <Eddi|zuHause> i meant
besides that... :p
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L89[03:14:39] <JVFoxy> stupid net giving me
issues, sorry took a bit.. some screen shots of what happens. first
set, wings not clipping. second how normally had it minus
engines
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L93[03:55:21] <packbart> JVFoxy: the KAS
hoses might be a problem in "docked" mode. If I connect a
rover to a tank and switch the connection to "docked",
the rover jumps up high and crashes
L94[03:55:47] <packbart> I guess it's the
wheels autostruts restrutting to the new heaviest part, which also
sits several metres away
L95[03:56:58] <taniwha> KAS hoses in docked
mode are, for me, a nightmare
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L98[04:01:17] <JVFoxy> I'll keep it in
mind. Sorry, decided to take a break for a little. Back though,
testing an idea if I rebuilt hte plane...
L99[04:01:32] <JVFoxy> It may have been
acting up because I ported the craft file from previous ksp
version
L101[04:04:31] <Gasher[work]> heh
L102[04:04:46] <packbart> ah, heh. you
could fix that now with "same vessel interaction" on the
pads, I guess?
L103[04:05:06] <taniwha> maybe, now, but
this was 1.5 or 1.6
L104[04:07:14] <taniwha> and, tbh, I had
forgotten about that (probably because I knew of it months ago but
otherwise ignored it)
L105[04:17:58] <JVFoxy> make fuel tanks
seperate from base?
L106[04:18:17] <JVFoxy> also ugh.. how to
get pilons to fit straight on these fat wings..
L107[04:18:24] <JVFoxy> *pylons
L108[04:20:00]
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L111[04:24:34] <taniwha> rotation too,
absolute mode
L112[04:25:07] <taniwha> can snap the
angle
L113[04:25:35] <taniwha> JVFoxy: my
solution was to make EL's resource manager support inter-vessel
transfers
L114[04:26:10] <taniwha> ie, use the KAS
link in undocked mode and use EL's (or KAS's, as I later found out)
manager to do the transfer
L115[04:26:28] <taniwha> (EL's is nicer
when dealing with larger vessels)
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L117[04:32:44] <packbart> I need to have a
look at EL. I've been playing with GroundConstruction so far
L119[04:42:03] <JVFoxy> ok so far so
good...
L120[04:42:18] <JVFoxy> plane jumps a
little bit but doesn't just rip itself to crud..
L121[04:42:43] <Althego> lately they are
constantly jumping
L122[04:44:44] <JVFoxy> right now is a
test flight..
L123[04:45:07] <JVFoxy> I've feeling
porting over the craf file from previous game did some weird
stuff
L124[04:45:18] <JVFoxy> stock to modded
game too
L125[04:47:17] <JVFoxy> well stable, not
banking...
L126[04:47:31] <JVFoxy> well a tiny but
had to physic warp to see a little bit
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L129[04:54:00] <Gasher[work]> the issue i
have with these cargo planes is to actually fit and get the stuff
in
L130[04:54:04] <Gasher[work]> and then
out
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L132[04:56:47] <JVFoxy> oh?
L133[04:57:19] <JVFoxy> as in... other
craft docking inside or just getting kerbals inside the cargo hold
for starts?
L134[04:58:04] <JVFoxy> ok now that I
basically built a new compatible cargo plane, now off to do what I
was originally trying: seeing what it takes to build a fuel depot
on the abandoned island
L135[05:03:03] <Gasher[work]> its not a
spaceplane so getting something inside and docking it there
L136[05:07:49] <JVFoxy> wish we had wheels
between the tiny rover ones and the moon ones
L137[05:10:43] <packbart> great, I
stranded tourists on the Mun. 478m/s are not enough to launch and
return to Kerbin
L138[05:14:33] <Gasher[work]> i guess you
need about 1750
L139[05:14:45] <Gasher[work]> less than
that even
L140[05:15:43] <packbart> yeah, not much
more. some 500-ish to launch and then ~250 for a return into
Kerbin's atmosphere
L141[05:16:26] <Gasher[work]> ywah, 1750
is from deltaV map to land on Mun from lko
L142[05:27:03] <JVFoxy> can't fit fuel
tanks inside containers so strapped them to side of plane. unbolted
htem when I got the site. Kerbal just pushed it over to the pylon
:P
L144[05:39:30] <Eddi|zuHause> "478m/s
are not enough to launch and return to Kerbin" <-- pretty
much all my mun landings have been like that
L145[05:41:19] <Gasher[work]> i tend to
have extra unused dV
L146[05:42:05] <taniwha> there's no such
thing as excess delta-v, only insufficient mission
L147[05:43:26] <Eddi|zuHause> i can
usually fix it by reloading and performing a more efficient
landing
L148[05:44:01] <JVFoxy> whoa.. ok so
loaded up a few nose cones into cargo bay, loose. took off from
runway and now graphics acting werid
L149[05:44:27] <JVFoxy> kind of like that
thing it does when you view the planet's surface and its not got
full res yet.
L150[05:44:30] <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds
incredibly dangerous
L151[05:44:49] <JVFoxy> like all the
textures just fighting each other
L152[05:44:58] <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't
secure your cargo, your flight is probably not very long
L153[05:46:15] <Gasher[work]> though it'd
be quite eventful
L155[05:47:28] <Eddi|zuHause> there was a
plane like that which had loaded tanks. it took off, and basically
did a full-stop midair
L156[05:48:05] <Gasher[work]> i can think
of at least one video of a cargo plane crash, somewhere in the
middle east and it was US army one
L157[05:48:50] <Gasher[work]> the cargo
detached in midflight and you could see that the control surfaces
were functional right until the end as they were struggling to
control it
L160[05:49:15] <kmath> YouTube - Dramatic
footage: Cargo Boeing 747 crashes at Bagram Airfield
L161[05:49:41] <Gasher[work]> thast
one
L162[05:50:18] <FLHerne> (and yes, caused
by CoM shift from unsecured cargo)
L163[05:51:09] <Gasher[work]> you can see
that they rolled it back to parallel to the ground and were lifting
its nose with elevator but did not manage to
L164[05:51:45] <JVFoxy> ya, I remember
seeing something explaining how straps broke and load shifted,
threw plane pitch up. wasn't recoverable
L165[06:07:39] <JVFoxy> well.. 36t didn't
seem too much a problem for this plane...
L166[06:08:00] <JVFoxy> still a bit fuel
limited though, whatever is in the wings (1200) plus aux tanks in
the strakes.
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L169[06:43:17] <packbart> "This
runway debris evidence strongly suggests that, about the time of
the airplane’s rotation, the rear M-ATV moved aft, struck the E8
rack (which provides a shelf for the CVR and FDR), penetrated the
APB, and damaged hydraulic system No. 2, the tubing for which
passes through the APB on the airplane’s lower left
side."
L171[06:44:20] <Gasher[work]> em, don't
they have like 3 parallel hydraulic systems?
L172[06:45:32] <packbart> I guess planes
are just not built for cargo crashing through the bulkheads
L173[06:46:06] <packbart> " the NTSB
concludes that the airplane’s loss of pitch control was the result
of the improper restraint of the rear M-ATV, which allowed it to
move aft through the APB and damage hydraulic systems Nos. 1 and 2
and horizontal stabilizer drive mechanism components to the extent
that it was not possible for the flight crew to regain pitch
control of the airplane."
L174[06:46:19] <Gasher[work]> aha
L175[06:47:38] <Gasher[work]> so it was
not just CoM moving (btw is that covered? was it really outside the
viable area?) but also loss of control
L176[06:48:42] <Gasher[work]>
"balance envelope" is the right term
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L180[07:21:50] <packbart> "Wheels are
iffy on a good day." - so, Space Engineers have the same
physics problems :)
L181[07:22:31] <packbart> Windows only. So
I'm not going to have a look at it
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L188[08:25:55] <packbart> do the propeller
blades work in Jool's atmosphere? someone must have already tried
that, though I can't find anything on the internets
L189[08:29:42] <Althego> they work on
eve
L190[08:29:51] <Althego> very well in
fact
L191[08:30:04] <Althego> so it is probable
that jool is ok too
L192[08:30:11] <Althego> however duna is a
total failure
L193[08:30:20] <Althego> we would need
higher rpm probably
L194[08:30:33] <Althego> like 1.5 orders
of magnitude higher
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L198[08:59:09] <packbart> ooh, I don't
even need to land the rescue capsule. I picked the SSPXr larger
Hitchhiker pod, with integrated Experience Management
L199[08:59:44] <packbart> rendezvous with
a rescue, upgrade them to level-1 so they get their chute and off
they jump the next time the capsule passes over the KSC
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L204[09:40:21] <packbart> "Some
Kerbals say that every place on Duna looks exactly the same."
- the first probe hasn't even reached Duna, yet the Kerbals at home
already know exactly what it must look like.
L205[09:40:50] <packbart> so human
L206[09:43:01] <Althego> to explode is
kerbal
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L211[10:20:27] <Althego> so on duna my
porops created 2x0.3 kN "lift", while the total drag
minimum was around 10 times of that
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L217[10:39:23] <kmath> YouTube - KSP
1.7.3: refined + improved (simplified) helicopter controls
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L224[11:10:31] <Althego> hmm, tomorrow is
hopper raptor test
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L228[11:23:37] <UmbralRaptop> Hrm. How
well could a kerbal astronomer make out surface features on
Duna?
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L230[11:24:51] <UmbralRaptop> AFAICT, a
typical opposition has Duna ~18" across, and without the
inclination or obliquity of Mars
L231[11:25:01] <Althego> they sure have
big eyes :)
L232[11:25:10] <UmbralRaptop> Sure its
icecaps are larger, but still…
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L234[11:25:32] <UmbralRaptop> And does it
have the contrast of eg: Syrtis Major?
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L236[11:36:33] <Althego> wow, with the big
propeller blades (the helicopter blades still dont work), i get 2x1
kN "lift" on duna
L237[11:36:42] <Althego> it is almost able
to counteract drag :)
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L239[11:44:03] <UmbralRaptop>
Progress!
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L241[11:59:27] <Althego> based on the
arrows, and the tendency of the props to start spinning because of
your movement, there is autorotation
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L243[12:05:20] <Althego> ah i think i knwo
what the problem with the helicopter blades is. they have controls
activated by default. when i turn that off, they start to behave
better
L244[12:05:35] <Althego> probably there is
some sort of control runnning in the background and it is not very
good
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L248[12:22:26] <Althego> so finally that i
got them to somewhat work, the helicopter blades have high lift,
but low max speed. at least the smallest ones that are as big as
the big props dont like speed over 30
L249[12:22:37] <Althego> while i can get
up ot 120 with the props
L250[12:23:05] <Althego> on the other hand
the heli rotor blades easily have higher lift than the weighth of
the craft
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L252[12:26:54] <Althego> if cae did
anything correctly, that was the simulation of rotor blades. first
of all they were simulated as bending bodies, with not too many
elements, second thei visualization had several states
L253[12:27:38] <Althego> unlike in ksp,
after a while they started to be shown as blurred, then that blur
started to increase until finally it went to a rotor disk, which
needed very little actual rendering
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L256[12:50:39] <Althego> and it lands just
as easily
L257[12:52:36] <umaxtu_mobile> that
conversion to forward flight is a little bit crazy
L258[12:53:38] <Althego> yes, but it
starts to pitch up as anything else i tried
L259[12:54:15] <Althego> and actually the
big blades are pointless, i can get the same speed with smaller
ones, no need for the robotic parts
L260[12:54:21] <Althego> except for the
folding wings
L261[12:54:37] <Althego> and even the big
ones are useless for duna
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L263[13:02:07] <umaxtu_mobile> what about
lifting off with the motors at 45 degrees?
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L265[13:02:56] <Althego> i havent figured
out how to bind that
L266[13:04:32] <Althego> wait, i could
just adjust it manually
L267[13:06:53] <Althego> yes it works much
better
L268[13:07:00] <Althego> takes off in a
few meters
L269[13:11:43] <umaxtu_mobile> cool
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L304[16:36:49] <Guest93435> i found a typo
in the introductory stage of to the mun part 2 it said "lunar
orbit" instead of munar orbit
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L307[16:46:19] <Eddi|zuHause> literally
unplayable!
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L338[19:52:37] <JVFoxy> this little test
run with KAS/KIS sorta given me a little drive to get back into
sandbox a little more again
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L345[21:05:00] <JVFoxy> huh.. new vid from
CuriousMarc on AGC recreation
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L347[21:36:54] <JVFoxy> .... AGC mode for
KSP... anyone bothered looking into?
L348[21:37:27] <JVFoxy> maybe asking too
much but having a Gemini guidance computer would be neat to mess
around with too
L349[21:40:14] <lordcirth> JVFoxy, well,
there's kRPC already, and there's an AGC emulator on Github.
Perhaps something could be hacked together.
L350[21:44:33] <JVFoxy> wasn't familiar
with kRPC.. though I had seen a lot of home brewed control consols
online people have made
L351[21:45:23] <JVFoxy> I suspect not
everyone's going to have a working AGC on hand, so perhaps
something emulated... I had thought about a simplified version of
the AGC in a way
L352[21:46:26] <JVFoxy> also mentioned
Gemini, a bit of a fan of that program myself. I don't think it
gets much attention, let alone the computer they used. Ya its a
little more simple but still..
L353[21:49:39] <JVFoxy> manual on kRPC got
my gears turning, thinking of what I could make for later
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L356[21:57:22] <JVFoxy> though I think in
order to connect to the PC from outside, you have to use
network?
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L358[22:01:17] <lordcirth> JVFoxy, from
another PC? Yeah, how else?
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L363[22:28:22] <JVFoxy> sorry.. back
L364[22:28:51] <JVFoxy> Lordcirth I don't
know.. just seen pics of people building boxes with dials, gauges,
displays. I don't know if they were using USB or TCP/IP
L365[22:48:49] <umaxtu_mobile> so you are
talking about some sort of external flight panel?
L366[22:50:43] <lordcirth> JVFoxy, oh,
those generally use USB, I think.
L368[23:01:55] <JVFoxy> looks like a cute
starter set
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L370[23:10:01] <umaxtu_mobile> maybe try
starting with something like that first
L372[23:18:43] <JVFoxy> sits under the
bed... seen it a while back, but now foundout it wasn't actually
functional, but he left it unfinished for later if kid wanted to do
anything
L373[23:25:05] <JVFoxy> I've seen a few
other control systems people have built... I wouldn't mind a little
something myself as a project if I could ever get the
motivation
L374[23:25:56] <umaxtu_mobile> hows your
soldering?
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L379[23:37:15] <JVFoxy> umaxtu_mobile ...
I can solder. I've built various things.
L380[23:37:48] <JVFoxy> even repaired
things..
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