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L11[13:43:06] <Mat2ch> Althego: it's called automated warp drive flytome
L12[13:43:32] <Althego> to me my board!
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L21[14:12:01] <UmbralRaptop> TheKosmonaut: just confirmed that I'm unable to download Making History with Firefox, Chrome, and Safari.
L22[14:13:46] <ve2dmn> Is it serious, Doctor? Will It live?
L23[14:14:49] <UmbralRaptop> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
L24[14:15:30] <UmbralRaptop> And to think I stuck with the store version because I wanted to avoid the hassles of Steam.
L25[14:16:07] <ve2dmn> You should be rewarded for your loyalty
L26[14:18:49] <UmbralRaptop> I am, just rather poorly.
L27[14:19:55] <ve2dmn> want my extra copy of TIS-100?
L28[14:20:15] <Althego> how, i could download it on the release day
L29[14:20:17] <Althego> it was rather hard
L30[14:20:23] <Althego> but it shouldnt be that hard now
L31[14:21:09] <UmbralRaptop> ve2dmn: I, er, already have a copy on Steam. >_>;;
L32[14:21:34] <UmbralRaptop> Althego: 1.4 is fine, Making History, however…
L33[14:23:13] <ve2dmn> Infinifactory?
L34[14:24:24] * UmbralRaptop ? ?. No, I don't want to switch from ?? to Safari for my default browser.
L35[14:24:34] <UmbralRaptop> hm. don't have that.
L36[14:24:58] <ve2dmn> I have around a few extra HB keys
L37[14:26:41] <ve2dmn> Humble Monthly is fine, but I do get a few games that I already have
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L46[14:48:02] <Fluburtur> lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKk0VnVU2Q0&t=1s
L47[14:48:02] <kmath> YouTube - Terre Plate : Les Vraies Fusées Contre Les Fausses - VOF - DITRH
L48[14:48:22] <Fluburtur> dude thinks earth is flat because he thinks real rockets are CGI
L49[14:48:41] <ve2dmn> And the other ones?
L50[14:49:22] <Fluburtur> what other one
L51[14:49:34] <Althego> lol that is a compression artifact
L52[14:49:39] <ve2dmn> "Vraie/Fausse"
L53[14:49:46] <Fluburtur> yes bt that dude is obviously an idiot
L54[14:50:00] <Mat2ch> Fluburtur: nooooooo, don't post this stuff. Those people get too much attention already
L55[14:50:05] <Fluburtur> so he thinks model rockets are real because they go fast
L56[14:50:16] <Fluburtur> but real ones are slow because they go slow
L57[14:50:22] <Fluburtur> so they are fake
L58[14:50:44] <Fluburtur> name one commercial rocket with a twr of 10
L59[14:50:45] <ve2dmn> Fluburtur: I saw a launch with my own eye. This guy is an idiot
L60[14:51:19] <Ezko> well if someone has managed to get convinced that the earth is flat then i don't see how they couldn't come to a conclusion like that
L61[14:51:25] <Fluburtur> you are obviously paid by nasa to lie to us
L62[14:51:40] <Althego> but that was a srussian rocket
L63[14:51:45] <Fluburtur> yes
L64[14:51:49] <Fluburtur> but that guys knows nothing
L65[14:52:02] <ve2dmn> Fluburtur: I wish I was paid for... something
L66[14:52:48] <Fluburtur> I would like being paid to say that the earth is round and rockets are rela
L67[14:52:50] <Fluburtur> real*
L68[14:53:26] <Althego> hehe
L69[14:53:45] <Althego> there are people like that. spokesperson
L70[14:53:59] <UmbralRaptop> Fluburtur: become a scientist! Be paid to mess around and write up your results! (well, sort of)
L71[14:54:18] <Fluburtur> I guess I could
L72[14:54:53] <ve2dmn> I'm sure I could seel a bridge or 2 to these peoples
L73[14:54:58] <ve2dmn> sell*
L74[14:59:19] <ve2dmn> I wonder what *could* convince them
L75[14:59:33] <Fluburtur> a trip in a rocket?
L76[14:59:41] <UmbralRaptop> Depends on their assumptions.
L77[14:59:41] <Fluburtur> if they don't think it is a simulator
L78[14:59:57] <ve2dmn> The windows are screens! it's all a lie!
L79[14:59:59] <Fluburtur> well a rocket ride and you throw them out
L80[15:00:12] <Fluburtur> they will all the time left int he world to decide if it is true or not
L81[15:00:15] <Fluburtur> before they die
L82[15:02:15] <ve2dmn> I wonder how they explain the differnce in shadow between latitudes... or a lunar eclipse shape
L83[15:02:20] <Althego> you can experience space for a while without harm
L84[15:02:33] <Althego> that should be enough to convince them
L85[15:02:36] <Althego> 20 sec or so
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L87[15:08:22] <UmbralRaptop> IIRC with shape, they do the YEC thing of "historically the ball earth people got some details wrong, therefore our hypothesis is correct"
L88[15:09:06] <ve2dmn> The '1% is wrong therefore 100% is wrong' fallacy
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L90[15:09:31] <UmbralRaptop> I haven't heard that term, but yeah.
L91[15:09:44] <ve2dmn> It has a name, I just don't remember it
L92[15:09:50] <UmbralRaptop> See: the weird polygonal actual shape of the umbra.
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L94[15:10:24] <UmbralRaptop> Also for simulating eclipses, make sure that they see happens with the umbra when the body casting a shadow is smaller than the light source. (I've seen one who was mislead by using a light source smaller than their shadow casting object)
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L104[15:40:45] <ve2dmn> UmbralRaptop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_fallacy
L105[15:44:24] <Fluburtur> I think I found the best WWII plane https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/fe/d4/7afed4df88ed8040a450195e3e6ff732.jpg
L106[15:44:53] <Truga> why
L107[15:45:00] <Althego> probabéy was never in production
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L109[15:45:39] ⇨ Joins: korniton (korniton!webchat@31.223.135.251)
L110[15:45:48] <korniton> Hello
L111[15:45:50] <Mod9000> Hello, korniton
L112[15:46:00] <ve2dmn> Truga: why not?
L113[15:46:04] <Althego> hi
L114[15:46:06] <Mod9000> Hello, Althego
L115[15:46:09] <Althego> oh no
L116[15:46:15] <Althego> i hate it when that happens
L117[15:46:18] <korniton> I got a station science continued mod question, can I ask it here?
L118[15:46:27] <ve2dmn> korniton: go ahead
L119[15:46:47] <Truga> ve2dmn well, probably science :v
L120[15:46:54] <korniton> My prograde kuarqs dont work
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L122[15:47:01] <korniton> and my retrograde cant even be activated
L123[15:47:17] <ve2dmn> What version of KSP are you running?
L124[15:47:21] <korniton> 1.4.1
L125[15:47:59] <korniton> Im first time on the mod, maybe im doing something wrong
L126[15:48:05] <ve2dmn> did you get an updated version of the mod for 1.4.x?
L127[15:48:23] <korniton> I donwloaded the latest version, if thats what you mean?
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L129[15:48:28] <BadRocketsCo> Hullo
L130[15:48:39] <ve2dmn> ha. maybe. Screenshot of your station?
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L132[15:49:03] <korniton> Its not really a station, I just launch a rocket with everything needed into space lol
L133[15:49:17] <ve2dmn> that might be the issue then
L134[15:49:17] <korniton> I just redo it, let me get it into space again
L135[15:49:27] <ve2dmn> what do you have on that rocket?
L136[15:49:27] <korniton> is it?
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L138[15:50:12] <korniton> 12 Cyclotron, th-nkr lab, 1 prograde and 1 retrograde kuorq, a few scientist and a pilot. A lot of batteries and solar panels
L139[15:50:25] <korniton> My kuarq fills up to 24 as thats the max
L140[15:50:30] <korniton> and than I cant do anything else
L141[15:50:54] <korniton> Tried high and low altitues in orbit
L142[15:50:57] <ve2dmn> What about the other experiments?
L143[15:51:38] <korniton> Well, it req only kuarq for those two. I dont need the others right now
L144[15:51:40] <ve2dmn> You need enough 'Eureka' to finilise the experiment...
L145[15:52:10] <korniton> What is Eureka now? :S
L146[15:52:18] <ve2dmn> produced in the lab
L147[15:52:45] <korniton> Well, I start the lab...but the lab, it even works. I fast forward a year and still nothing
L148[15:53:10] <ve2dmn> do you have scientists in the lab and is it the *RIGHT* lab
L149[15:54:01] <korniton> It the TH-NKR lab and I have a scientist lv 1. When I got a scientist lv 0 I cant start the lab
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L151[15:55:18] <ve2dmn> from the forum page: "Prograde Kuarqs: use a Cyclotron to manufacture the stable Prograde variety of Kuarqs. You'll also need a Science Lab, and at least some source of power."
L152[15:56:05] <ve2dmn> If you can't do "Plant growth" which is the easiest one with only the science lab, I doubt the rest will work
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L154[15:56:46] <korniton> 1 sec
L155[15:56:47] <ve2dmn> "Each experiment requires Eurekas generated by the Science Lab."
L156[15:56:51] <korniton> Let me gets this baby into space
L157[15:57:04] <korniton> Yeah, I generat 24 as its capped at that
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L160[15:57:10] <korniton> I cant finish experiment
L161[15:57:29] <ve2dmn> see any Eureka?
L162[15:57:54] <korniton> when I do EVA with a scientis, I get the finalize eperiment button and only when I EVA and click on it I get the option. But I cant actualy finalize it, as nothing happens
L163[15:58:32] <korniton> Give me few minutes, I let you know :D
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L165[15:58:44] <Supernovy> Evening, Gentlemen.
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L169[16:01:44] <ve2dmn> korniton: make sure it's *not* the Mobile Processing Lab MPL-LG-2
L170[16:03:48] <ve2dmn> korniton: "Eurekas and Bioproducts generate while you're focused elsewhere, so you can leave those mult-hour experiments running while you control other ships, or just go to the launchpad to timewarp through it all. Kuarqs do not generate while unfocused, due to their electric charge requirement, but they only takes minutes of in-game time to reach quota if you have sufficient charge flowing in."
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L175[16:05:44] <korniton> @ve2dmn https://i.imgur.com/D262Mc5.png
L176[16:06:18] <korniton> I cant start prograde. Retrograde is full. Eurekas full. Cyclotron working. I cant do anything else :(
L177[16:06:50] <Draconiator> https://i.gyazo.com/f1ec56d45716e47c1715506867be8c53.png - Yayyy my glider works. for the initial boost I have 6 Seperatrons on a pylon.
L178[16:07:25] <ve2dmn> must be a 1.4.1 because I don't know
L179[16:07:29] <ve2dmn> sorry
L180[16:07:46] <korniton> https://i.imgur.com/gRjTtZF.png I have the finalize results button, but clicking it doesnt do anything :(
L181[16:08:10] <ve2dmn> You are supposed to get a 'Eureka' bar above that Kuarq one
L182[16:08:37] <ve2dmn> I have to go. bbl
L183[16:08:46] <UmbralRaptop> \o
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L185[16:09:28] <korniton> bye
L186[16:10:01] <GuestBanana> adios
L187[16:10:02] <korniton> I hope someone approves my post on the forum of the station science continues post so I get some help soon maybe :(
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L189[16:10:25] <GuestBanana> korniton: what version do you have
L190[16:10:26] ⇨ Joins: McKaby (McKaby!~Forgon@95.148.116.21)
L191[16:10:44] <GuestBanana> actually, what mod is that from>
L192[16:11:20] <korniton> Game version?
L193[16:11:33] <korniton> Station science continues mod
L194[16:11:39] <korniton> https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154629-14-station-science-continued-v240/&page=5
L195[16:12:22] <GuestBanana> oh, i haven't made it to the great realm of mods yet, I couldn't help you
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L197[16:12:25] <GuestBanana> I would if I could
L198[16:12:33] <korniton> Thank you anyways! :D
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L200[16:14:46] <VanDisaster> at least get scatterer & a cloud mod, those are an instant transformation
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L202[16:15:14] <Althego> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/399309813713993730/424314186496081940/7-circles-of-developer-hell-toggl-infographic-02.jpg
L203[16:16:29] <korniton> My PC cant handle any of those visual mods
L204[16:16:38] <korniton> *laptop not pc
L205[16:17:12] <VanDisaster> that I could imagine
L206[16:17:30] <korniton> Im harldy runing the game lol
L207[16:17:36] <VanDisaster> but if you have an actual gpu, then https://i.imgur.com/xm4ZACL.png boom instant transformation
L208[16:17:37] <GuestBanana> i upgraded lately to a middle-tier PC, I really should just get some prettification mods
L209[16:17:40] <korniton> Playing for 2 hours than letting laptop cool down
L210[16:18:05] <GuestBanana> VanDisaster: ohmigosh it's beautiful
L211[16:18:16] <korniton> I got a rog strix 1080 ti siting around...saldy i lost my job and wasnt able to buy the rest of the pc
L212[16:19:44] <VanDisaster> https://flic.kr/p/KYzgYv evenings etc
L213[16:19:59] <VanDisaster> I don't appear to have any pics from space :p but that's just coz I don't really go to space anymore
L214[16:20:03] <korniton> That looks amazing
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L216[16:20:40] <VanDisaster> scatterer should be reasonably lightweight if you turn the water off
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L220[16:24:02] <GuestBanana> I'm feeling kind of impatient about the dev diary
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L222[16:24:36] <GuestBanana> don't rush it but still
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L226[16:26:04] <darsie> Can class D asteroids be heavier than class E?
L227[16:26:24] <darsie> I had like 800 t class E.
L228[16:26:42] <darsie> Hmm, I geuss the class is more about volume.
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L230[16:26:59] <VanDisaster> rr... random lockups are what we love
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L247[16:45:12] <Guest60155> KSP won't start on pc
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L249[16:46:45] <Guest60155> can anyone help?
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L253[16:51:36] <darsie> Try a Mac, then ;).
L254[16:52:02] <darsie> Which is a PC, too ...
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L256[16:57:00] <VanDisaster> ow, haha, this is chugging a bit... but woo boy https://flic.kr/p/FzqQix
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L261[17:00:58] <VanDisaster> would need to know a biut more than "ksp won't start"
L262[17:01:07] <VanDisaster> like what you're doing to start it, etc
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L270[17:15:24] *** pizzaoverhead_ is now known as pizzaoverhead
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L283[17:46:14] * UmbralRaptop pokes halcyon_b with a cat-3 cable.
L284[17:46:33] <UmbralRaptop> VanDisaster: driveby questioning
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L305[18:21:02] <N70> anyone here familar with MKS?
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L311[18:32:28] <TheKosmonaut> N70: nope. Apparently not. But what is the problem?
L312[18:32:51] <N70> i was hoping i could get some help with making a patch for kerbalism and MKS
L313[18:33:12] <N70> since it SHOULD technically work now, because I made the ISRUs/Drills use stock modules
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L320[18:39:30] <PumaTato> Howdy
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L323[18:41:30] <UmbralRaptor> \o
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L336[18:59:59] <Pakaran> should I wait to make a permanent station until I unlock the lab, so I can design it with the lab 'central'?
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L363[19:39:47] <Draconiator> "Launch delayed until tomorrow, on account of Jebediah being stuck in the Snackbar vending machine....again"
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L373[19:48:38] * UmbralRaptor pokes website hamsters with a stick.
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L377[19:59:59] <Draconiator> https://i.gyazo.com/84dc0684aa9fe40930e4e2516d36c1fb.png - yep, experimenting again.
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L383[20:07:53] <Supernovy> I mean, I guess.
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L389[20:14:11] <Guest76910> hello
L390[20:14:12] <Mod9000> Hello, Guest76910
L391[20:14:44] <Guest76910> are you real?
L392[20:14:58] <Guest76910> i thought so....
L393[20:15:10] <Guest76910> hello
L394[20:15:10] <Mod9000> Hello, Guest76910
L395[20:15:13] <Guest76910> hello
L396[20:15:15] <Mod9000> Hello, Guest76910
L397[20:15:19] <Guest76910> nice
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L404[20:22:08] <StCypher> n i c e
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L416[20:39:57] <UmbralRaptor> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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L429[21:03:39] <Guest48754> is there any time frame for a 1.4.1 KSP update?
L430[21:04:06] <Guest48754> cause i may want to wait before building a new server.
L431[21:04:17] <lordcirth> Guest48754, 1.4.1 is already out
L432[21:04:39] <Guest48754> but for Dark KSP?
L433[21:05:12] <UmbralRaptor> Poke #DMP and/or darklight directly?
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L448[21:21:12] *** N70 is now known as N70|zzz
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L450[21:23:43] <Scolar_Visari> Sons and daughters of Kerbin: All for sample and regolith, life support won't last forever, every Kerbal wants to land on Mun!
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L452[21:24:14] <Scolar_Visari> United States likely to get Adeptus Astartes http://spacenews.com/defense-official-trump-is-serious-about-creating-a-space-force/
L453[21:24:54] <Scolar_Visari> Ahem, provided that one branch of the government that passes laws passes out in a bar.
L454[21:24:58] <UmbralRaptor> Don't we need thunder warriors first?
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L456[21:25:53] <Scolar_Visari> UmbralRaptor: Punk Rockers were essentially technobarbarians
L457[21:26:53] <VanDisaster> hail probe
L458[21:27:10] <Scolar_Visari> We who are about to science salute you!
L459[21:27:46] <VanDisaster> I miss the bot responding :S
L460[21:27:47] * UmbralRaptor hails Luna 3!
L461[21:28:15] <Scolar_Visari> The probe you have attempted to dial is no longer in service.
L462[21:28:56] <UmbralRaptor> They can't all be Voyager. =\
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L464[21:29:34] <Scolar_Visari> No. Most of them are around Mars.
L465[21:29:54] <Scolar_Visari> Voyager calls collect, anyway.
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L467[21:30:27] <VanDisaster> MRO is like a post office for rovers
L468[21:30:56] <Scolar_Visari> And that's problematic if something happens to it.
L469[21:31:07] <Scolar_Visari> Particularly with Mars 2020 coming up!
L470[21:31:15] <VanDisaster> can they bounce through maven?
L471[21:32:10] <Scolar_Visari> Wonky orbit does not help.
L472[21:33:18] <Scolar_Visari> Clearly we must transition to Hyperpulse Communications!
L473[21:33:33] <Scolar_Visari> In the name of Blake, contact Comstar!
L474[21:33:41] <UmbralRaptor> Also, it's a minor miricle that Mars Odyssey still works.
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L476[21:34:46] <Scolar_Visari> UmbralRaptor: Ended better than that *other* space odyssey.
L477[21:34:56] <VanDisaster> kinda surprised noones talking to a voyager right now, they always seem to be chatting
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L479[21:36:33] <UmbralRaptor> Well, you more or less need a radio telescope…
L480[21:37:07] <Scolar_Visari> VanDisaster: Not much to say. Most of the instruments are off to economize on precious RTG energy.
L481[21:37:36] <VanDisaster> dsn always seemed to have a dish pointing at them for the last I dunno how many months
L482[21:37:56] <VanDisaster> mebbe we're on the wrong side of the sun or something, no idea if there's an online orbit visual
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L484[21:38:49] <Scolar_Visari> https://theskylive.com/voyager1-tracker
L485[21:39:00] <Scolar_Visari> This reminds me . . . I still need to track down Voyager 1 or 2 in Elite.
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L487[21:41:11] <Scolar_Visari> Are these the Halcyon_b days?
L488[21:43:34] * Scolar_Visari ponders why there is so much . . . unmerited optimism assuming the success of the BFR.
L489[21:43:50] <VanDisaster> Orbital did a tune called Halcyon & on & on, how appropriate
L490[21:43:57] <VanDisaster> I haven't heared that in a while
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L492[21:44:38] <Scolar_Visari> What on the Moon? " It's time to build a military base on the Moon. We eventually will have to have a military base in space, it should logically be on the Moon. The giant lava tubes at Marius Hills seems to be an ideal location."
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L494[21:46:14] <UmbralRaptor> Is that from some 1950s report?
L495[21:46:46] <Scolar_Visari> UmbralRaptor: No, it's some one commenting on the linked SpaceNews article. Another person also stated, "Why do we have humans in charge of ICBMs? To make the final judgement if no one else can. Lower launch cost will enable human control from orbit/space for many issues."
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L497[21:47:29] <Scolar_Visari> Because if there's one way to insure the continuation of your nuclear arsenal's ability to launch, it's to literally place your entire operation in the most vulnerable position imaginable.
L498[21:47:54] <Scolar_Visari> Heaven forbid there's ever a CME.
L499[21:48:29] <UmbralRaptor> Oh, it's much worse than that. Both vulnerable and capable of striking more quickly, so encourages a first strike.
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L501[21:49:02] <UmbralRaptor> (A lunar basing at least gives time to react)
L502[21:49:14] <Scolar_Visari> I don't know what is worse. The fact that people are taking the unlikely suggestion of a Space Force seriously despite it only having one Congress-critter backing it, or the fact that they're literally imagining the use of Space Marines.
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L506[21:51:41] <Scolar_Visari> Particularly concerning given that the Secretary of Defense is not really on board with the idea.
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L508[21:52:19] <Scolar_Visari> Oh dear. "Having nuclear missiles on the moon (or somewhere far away) eliminates the temptation for an enemy to launch a first strike with the hopes of destroying us quickly enough not to respond."
L509[21:53:00] <Scolar_Visari> We'll just ignore the difficulty in conducting a first strike against flotillas of hidden Doomsday-in-a-Can.
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L511[21:53:31] * UmbralRaptor pokes reality with a stick.
L512[21:53:47] <UmbralRaptor> At least TESS launches soon.
L513[21:53:58] <Scolar_Visari> I WANT MORE INSIGHT!
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L516[21:54:12] <Scolar_Visari> After Insight, I recommend sending roughnecks to the Martian polar icecaps.
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L518[21:54:55] <Scolar_Visari> The Lunacy continues: "The warheads would be much more difficult to detect. Seeing a terrestrial ICBM launch is pretty obvious and makes it much more easy to predict where the warhead is than a cold object coming in from deep space."
L519[21:55:12] <UmbralRaptor> Uh
L520[21:55:25] <Scolar_Visari> Launch detection no real.
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L523[21:57:20] <Scolar_Visari> It's amazing how much a person can unlearn by getting their general spaceflight knowledge from television, comic books and bad novels.
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L525[21:59:54] <bees> Scolar_Visari: detecting moon missiles would be much harder imho
L526[22:00:16] <VanDisaster> ah there we go, canberra setting up for voyager 2
L527[22:00:59] <bees> Scolar_Visari: you would need full coverage of the moon by satellites
L528[22:01:00] <Scolar_Visari> bees: Launch detection gear could be placed on Earth and the heat plumes would be rather notable during the missiles' boost phase.
L529[22:01:13] <bees> Scolar_Visari: boost phase would be on the far side of the moon
L530[22:01:18] <bees> Scolar_Visari: that much is obvious
L531[22:01:26] <Scolar_Visari> No it isn't. That's a terrible place to put them.
L532[22:01:35] <bees> Scolar_Visari: to avoid being detected? not at all
L533[22:01:54] <Scolar_Visari> You would increase telecom costs and missile size requirements per payload.
L534[22:02:08] <Scolar_Visari> Likewise, they'll still be detected as the boost would have to continue on an intercept trajectory from Earth.
L535[22:02:47] <bees> you certanly can boost directly to the earth from the far side
L536[22:02:49] <Scolar_Visari> In fact . . . I'd bargain the missiles would be more visible because they would be obligated to conduct much of their boost phase against space, rather than against the potentially Sunlit side of the Moon.
L537[22:03:02] <bees> it would not be the fastest arrival, but it would be fully covered
L538[22:03:31] <Scolar_Visari> There's also that matter of the reentry vehicles reflecting Sunlight in the visible and infrared spectrums.
L539[22:04:40] <bees> paint heatshields dark, duh
L540[22:04:42] <Scolar_Visari> If some one's gone through the multi-hundred billion dollar venture of putting a missile base on the Moon, some one's also gone through the multi-million dollar effort of making the semi-autonomous telescope network needed to detect the projectiles mid flight.
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L543[22:07:12] <Scolar_Visari> Why not just build an armada of SSBNs!?
L544[22:07:33] <Scolar_Visari> Launch close enough to a target's shore, and you get nifty depressed trajectories.
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L546[22:08:15] <bees> <Scolar_Visari> If some one's gone through the multi-hundred billion dollar venture of putting a missile base on the Moon,
L547[22:08:21] <bees> you overestimate the cost imho
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L551[22:09:00] <Scolar_Visari> Overestimate? The ISS cost over $100 billion, and that's trivial compared to a missile base on the Moon.
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L555[22:09:25] <bees> ISS is scientific
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L557[22:09:32] <bees> missile base on the Moon is practical
L558[22:09:39] <bees> very big difference.
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L560[22:10:09] <Scolar_Visari> You're not *just* launching missiles and landing them for future use. You have to R&D the Hell out of them so they can last years in an environment hostile to machinery, you have to invest in telecoms and C&C infrastructure and you have to have the launches to even get into space.
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L563[22:11:56] <bees> Scolar_Visari: for some reason i think that digging 5m deep holes on the moon and putting small rockets there is quite simple compared to full of scientific equipment rovers
L564[22:12:03] <Scolar_Visari> A missile base on the Moon isn't practical. It's absolutely worse than useless, and that still would not get rid of the hideous R&D costs on top of the launches. Heck, the launch costs alone would eclipse the ISS' expenses.
L565[22:12:16] <Scolar_Visari> bees: DIGGING FIVE METER HOLES ON THE MOON IS NOT SIMPLE.
L566[22:12:21] <bees> Scolar_Visari: why?
L567[22:12:32] <Scolar_Visari> For starters, we can't even dig holes that big in space environments.
L568[22:12:41] <Scolar_Visari> Insight, for instance, will drill about a meter.
L569[22:12:48] <bees> Scolar_Visari: [citation needed]
L570[22:12:54] <bees> Insight is not a drill.
L571[22:13:11] <Scolar_Visari> Insight has the largest drill afforded to a spacecraft since Apollo.
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L573[22:13:39] <Scolar_Visari> Furthermore, you also have to place the missiles in said holes. Do you know what sort of engineering that would take without sending people there to crane them into place?
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L576[22:14:38] <Scolar_Visari> Lunokhod was hard enough to operate, and that was just equipped with passive sensors.
L577[22:15:09] <bees> Scolar_Visari: this is moon, you can operate remotely
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L579[22:15:40] <Scolar_Visari> Operating remotely with severe communications lag is neither easy nor quite possible if you're assuming a far side operation.
L580[22:15:45] <bees> Scolar_Visari: point is, when you drop every mention of "science" from your mission, you suddenly face a 1234534632463 times solved problems (on Earth) that you just need to adapt a bit
L581[22:15:48] <Scolar_Visari> You, again, need a new C&C infrastructure.
L582[22:16:11] <Scolar_Visari> Your point ignores the actual reasons for the Space Station's costs.
L583[22:16:47] <Scolar_Visari> You can't handwave the R&D and launch costs away, and this isn't as straight forward a process as you're insinuating. You need to develop a signfiicant amount of new hardware.
L584[22:17:07] <bees> a significant amount of new SIMPLE MECHANICAL hardware
L585[22:17:21] <Scolar_Visari> Ballistic missiles are not simple, nor are cislunar missiles.
L586[22:17:40] <bees> you already have ballistic missiles
L587[22:17:52] <bees> they already designed to operate in space for some time
L588[22:17:54] <Scolar_Visari> They would not work on the Moon. They require human maintanance and have lower delta-vs.
L589[22:18:03] <Scolar_Visari> Their operational time in space is literally measured in minutes.
L590[22:18:31] <Scolar_Visari> Heck, I'm not even sure the nuclear payloads would survive well given long term exposure to cosmic and stellar radiation.
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L593[22:19:25] <Scolar_Visari> To say nothing of sensitive electronics. It'd be rather unfortunate if your interial guidance computers got so fried from spending years in space that they couldn't hit their target's continent!
L594[22:19:55] <bees> Scolar_Visari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-36_(missile)#R-36ORB
L595[22:20:27] <bees> also 5 meters below surface of the moon and enviroment is almost the same as missile silo
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L597[22:20:32] <bees> a little bit colder
L598[22:20:33] <Scolar_Visari> And that's really far away from spending years in space.
L599[22:20:44] <bees> 5 meters below surface != space
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L601[22:21:36] <Scolar_Visari> Er, no. Five meters below the surface doesn't include the weeks or months they'd spend in transit before being position. Though, again, we have absolutely no equipment for digging such large structures on the moon.
L602[22:21:51] <Scolar_Visari> And, again, those missiles on Earth also get regular maintenance.
L603[22:22:53] <bees> we dont have such equipment because noone had the reason to create one
L604[22:23:02] <Scolar_Visari> Because it's hideously expensive.
L605[22:23:07] <bees> because it is useless
L606[22:23:23] <bees> (for science)
L607[22:23:27] <Scolar_Visari> I guarantee you planetary scientists wouldn't think so.
L608[22:23:41] <Scolar_Visari> Deep core samples from Mars would be a Godsend for climate sciences.
L609[22:24:00] <Scolar_Visari> As it turns out, however, digging holes is hard.
L610[22:24:05] <bees> if you dig a hole, that would not be a sample
L611[22:24:08] <bees> that would be a hole
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L613[22:24:28] <bees> digging SCIENTIFIC holes is different
L614[22:24:31] <Scolar_Visari> You get the sample by digging a hole.
L615[22:24:45] * Scolar_Visari also notes certain landers had shovels.
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L617[22:25:38] <Scolar_Visari> Phoenix in particular illustrated how different Mars can get once you've gotten beneath the regolith.
L618[22:25:53] <bees> shovels? halfway there
L619[22:26:20] <Scolar_Visari> Except, of course, they lifted up mere grams of materials. You're talking about tons of Lunar regolith, which is a pain given that it's particularly bad for moving parts.
L620[22:27:23] <Scolar_Visari> Have any idea how you're going to get a Lunar excavator on the Moon? How to power it?
L621[22:28:07] <Scolar_Visari> Or, better yet, how much in R&D it would cost to make one that doesn't last more than a few days when regolith gets in the moving parts you can't cover?
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L623[22:29:04] <Scolar_Visari> And then you need hardware to move the missiles in the place, hardware to actually create a functional silo (otherwise they're just opened top and still vulnerable to radiation), and hardware to connect missiles to your C&C infrastructure and telecoms.
L624[22:29:23] <UmbralRaptor> This, uh, isn't the best channel for this discussion, given the strong implicit politics.
L625[22:29:27] <Scolar_Visari> The ISS didn't have to go through any of that, and that was just to make a facility that could house seven people in orbit.
L626[22:29:46] <bees> every hardware for digging a hole already exists
L627[22:29:48] <Scolar_Visari> UmbralRaptor: I demand satisfaction on the field of honor, good dromeaosaur
L628[22:30:05] <Scolar_Visari> bees: Digging a hole on Earth is a lot different than digging a hole on the Moon.
L629[22:30:18] <bees> Scolar_Visari: hole is a hole
L630[22:30:21] <Scolar_Visari> Unless you just send people there with shovels, of course, but then you have to house them.
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L633[22:31:07] <Scolar_Visari> You can't just send a terrestrial excavator to the Moon and expect it to work, particularly since most of them are diesel powered!
L634[22:31:26] <bees> pick one that is electrically powered, duh
L635[22:31:30] <UmbralRaptor> There is always /msg
L636[22:31:50] <bees> UmbralRaptor: the topic is digging holes in the moon, what is wrong with that
L637[22:31:51] <Scolar_Visari> bees: I don't know if you've noticed, Solar power is kind of weaksauce for industrial applications.
L638[22:32:31] <bees> Scolar_Visari: do we have a strict time limit?
L639[22:32:43] <Scolar_Visari> Photovoltaics do not age well in the space environment, so yes.
L640[22:32:56] <bees> so, a few years?
L641[22:33:24] <Scolar_Visari> To say nothing of other components breaking down. Again, Lunar regolith is murder on sensitive equipment and moving parts, which a complex digging vehicle must inevitable expose.
L642[22:33:53] <bees> "sensitive equipment"
L643[22:34:00] <bees> hole digging, sensitive equipment
L644[22:34:01] <bees> pick one
L645[22:34:01] <Scolar_Visari> Like, for instance, wheels.
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L647[22:35:04] <bees> not being limited by vibration/shocks that would break micronanogammabetaneutrinoprotonradiodetectoreflector is nice
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L649[22:35:46] <Scolar_Visari> That's not really a problem on most of the equipment NASA sends up, because they have to survive the shock of launch and landing.
L650[22:36:39] <bees> (while being inactive, i presume)
L651[22:36:42] <Scolar_Visari> Heck, several rovers landed on Mars in a bouncing balloon shell.
L652[22:37:33] <Scolar_Visari> I think you're overestimating the cost of the scientific instruments. A lot of the cost and mission payload mass for that matter consists of the chassis for a given probe.
L653[22:38:36] <bees> that needs to provide everything for 205723958235 different instruments
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L655[22:38:44] <bees> have there been any single-purpose missions?
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L659[22:39:49] <UmbralRaptor> Magellan immediately comes to mind.
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L661[22:39:59] <Scolar_Visari> For instance: Of Mars Science Laboratory's total program cost in 2009 of then $1.631 billion, only $124.3 million went to payload development.
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L664[22:40:29] <Scolar_Visari> Scientific probes can only carry a small handful of instruments.
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L666[22:41:20] <Scolar_Visari> Juno, orbiting Jupiter at this very moment, has ten scientific instruments.
L667[22:41:29] <Scolar_Visari> Excuse me, nine.
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L669[22:44:58] <Scolar_Visari> The MSL has around 13 if you include the brushes and drills.
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L671[22:46:23] <bees> more than enough if you ask me
L672[22:47:49] <Scolar_Visari> Heck, the Hubble only carried *five* instruments when it launched.
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L675[22:51:57] <Scolar_Visari> The Viking landers are perhaps the best comparsion. As comprehensive a package as they were, the costs of the then revolutionary experimental payloads was still less than a third of that needed for the rest of the lander.
L676[22:53:01] <Scolar_Visari> Those platforms did a *lot* less than you're wanting to do with extraterrestrial earthmoving gear.
L677[22:53:56] <bees> Moon is also quite a bit easier
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L680[22:55:12] <Scolar_Visari> The Moon's every bit as difficult, if not more so, than Mars. You don't get photovoltaic cleaning anomalies like the MER hardware got, and you get long nights with no power for Solar gear followed by long days with extra stress on heat rejection.
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L683[22:55:52] <Scolar_Visari> Even if you ditch Solar and go for RTG or heavier, you still have to stop activity during Lunar nights to ensure your hardware doesn't freeze.
L684[22:56:25] <bees> Scolar_Visari: statistics are in favor of the moon
L685[22:57:15] <Scolar_Visari> Statistics that don't take into account any of what we're discussing, particularly in the context of the Moon only getting one unmanned rover to Mars' four.
L686[22:57:35] <Scolar_Visari> The sample size is so small as to be insignificant.
L687[22:58:13] <Scolar_Visari> Excluding the Jade Rabbit, of course, but I suppose that should count as half successful?
L688[22:59:39] <taniwha> bees: re rovers, the moon doesn't have statistics. it has one data point
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L691[23:01:39] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Well there's Lunokhod and Yutu (Jade Rabbit), but that last one didn't get much press and did sort of get stuck.
L692[23:02:19] <Scolar_Visari> Neither were technically complicated (though Yutu had ground penetrating radar!), so I can't imagine that boads well for putting a Caterpillar excavator or front loader on the Moon.
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L695[23:05:05] <Scolar_Visari> The manned Lunar Rovers were also pretty simple (being two seats on wheels developed within a couple of years) yet still required repairs
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L697[23:06:37] * Scolar_Visari ponders sending up Wallace and Gromit to excavate cislunar missile silos under the deceit of Lunar cheese mining.
L698[23:08:02] <taniwha> or just pay them with cheese
L699[23:08:18] <Scolar_Visari> "Analysis of data recovered from Lunar recon satellites reveals high concentrations of cheese-mass here, here, and here in the highlight regions. We will deploy a one man, one dog team to recover this material."
L700[23:09:02] <Scolar_Visari> "Commander Gromit will take point with Lieutenant Wallace acting as the mission payload specialist."
L701[23:10:45] <Scolar_Visari> Amazing! This is already more plausible than Europa Report!
L702[23:11:26] <Scolar_Visari> A Grand Day Out certainly could do with a gritty remake.
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L705[23:14:59] <ve2dmn> I can't imagine the trouble of sending a dog or cat to space
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L707[23:15:44] <Scolar_Visari> Ahem . . . Russian space dogs.
L708[23:16:25] <ve2dmn> Those were short term
L709[23:16:42] <ve2dmn> I mean, like, to the ISS for a month
L710[23:17:12] <Supernovy> Pigeons really don't like microgravity, I can tell you that much for free.
L711[23:17:14] <Scolar_Visari> I recall experiments with small birds aboard Mir (albeit those may have been with quail embryos, rather than adolescent birds).
L712[23:17:37] <Scolar_Visari> It's *possible* a cat might actually adapt to freefall. A dog perhaps less so.
L713[23:18:23] <Supernovy> Quail or something, wasn't it?
L714[23:18:41] <Supernovy> Oh boy, I'd expect a cat to just start spinning around trying to land on its feet forever.
L715[23:19:04] <Supernovy> actually - I think there are microgravitational feline experiments
L716[23:19:20] <Scolar_Visari> Supernovy: As do I, albeit in aircraft with the cats going crazy.
L717[23:19:34] <Supernovy> Right, yes, cat vomit comets.
L718[23:19:49] * Scolar_Visari would've thought it had been hilarious if a test pilot had been forced to eject do to a cat on their face.
L719[23:20:31] <Scolar_Visari> Also: the Quail embryo experiments on Mir revealed severe developmental issues in freefall among the control subjects. Though a centrifuge was designed, it apparently did not work
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L721[23:20:47] <Scolar_Visari> And, I did not know this, Skylab had mice!
L722[23:21:20] <Scolar_Visari> Killed by a power failure, however.
L723[23:21:50] <Draconiator> https://i.gyazo.com/f9fb7d79b693599030248d424309eafa.png
L724[23:22:02] <Scolar_Visari> Ah, here we go https://finchwench.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/cosmoquails/
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L726[23:22:55] <Scolar_Visari> Draconiator: I hope you have a gun synchronizer. Otherwise, Valentina's biplane will become a bi-glider.
L727[23:23:28] <UmbralRaptor> France did have a suborbital cat.
L728[23:23:41] <tawny> I wanna be a bi-glider :p
L729[23:24:28] <Scolar_Visari> We really need more quail experiments. The Mir attempts were . . . less than satisfying.
L730[23:25:45] * Scolar_Visari envisions chickens being sent up into space and de-evolving into dinosaurs as part of a plot for a terrible Carnosaurs reboot.
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L732[23:26:48] <Scolar_Visari> We were just talking about sending you into space.
L733[23:27:38] ⇦ Quits: halcyon_1 (halcyon_1!~halcyon_b@h69-129-161-87.chctok.dsl.dynamic.tds.net) (Ping timeout: 383 seconds)
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L736[23:31:01] <Scolar_Visari> Pheh, degenerate unterstar! https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1803/crab_lg.jpg
L737[23:35:17] * Scolar_Visari goes off to summon the Galactic Council for judgement.
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