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L36[02:47:57] <Tank2333> Hi
L37[02:47:58] <Mod9000> Hello, Tank2333
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L49[03:57:56] <Fluburtur> crap
L50[03:58:04] <Fluburtur> kerbinside makes ksp crash on launch
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L58[04:45:23] <Fluburtur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-air_retrieval
L59[04:49:05] <Truga> kerbinside? :D
L60[04:49:16] <Fluburtur> yeah
L61[04:49:19] <Fluburtur> not sure why
L62[04:50:16] <Truga> what's a kerbinside
L63[04:50:23] <RoboFreak> a mod
L64[04:50:31] <Fluburtur> a mod that adds a bunch of bases on kerbin
L65[04:50:34] *** RoboFreak is now known as Althego
L66[04:50:38] <Fluburtur> o
L67[04:51:03] <Fluburtur> and I need to wait for Draconiator so he can tell me which version he used
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L79[06:11:26] <Fluburtur> it's so dark outside
L80[06:11:29] <Fluburtur> goddamn weather
L81[06:11:32] <Fluburtur> wait
L82[06:11:36] <Fluburtur> it's snowing?
L83[06:11:39] <Fluburtur> what in hell
L84[06:12:30] <Fluburtur> nevermind just tiny ice cubes again
L85[06:14:27] <Truga> snow owns
L86[06:14:47] <Fluburtur> I want snow
L87[06:14:50] <Fluburtur> not rain
L88[06:14:57] <Fluburtur> and a plane with skis too
L89[06:14:58] <Truga> same
L90[06:15:42] <GlassYuri> wtf I just slipped and cut myself but there was no blood at first
L91[06:15:56] <Fluburtur> it does that sometimes
L92[06:16:07] <GlassYuri> like, the blade is clean, and I could see like one mm into my finger with no blood
L93[06:16:22] <Fluburtur> I cut myself with my cutter sometimes but because it's super sharp it takes a few minutes to start bleeding
L94[06:16:42] <Fluburtur> but fingers only have very thin blood vessels so that plays too
L95[06:16:49] <Fluburtur> they maybe contract to prevent bleeding
L96[06:18:31] <GlassYuri> also my finger literally feels normal again by now
L97[06:18:50] <Fluburtur> sharp blades do that
L98[06:19:20] <Fluburtur> also update: it's snowing for real
L99[06:19:28] <GlassYuri> the blade isn't sharp
L100[06:19:37] <Fluburtur> well then you are lucky
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L102[06:22:36] <GlassYuri> I mean it was still pretty sharp but dull enough to warrant a replacement
L103[06:26:05] <Fluburtur> https://youtu.be/eXaPfUs6sQw
L104[06:26:05] <kmath> YouTube - Gripen and g-force
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L106[06:28:34] <Fluburtur> modern planes can pull 15Gs no problem but pilots start to struggle at like 5
L107[06:28:43] <Fluburtur> what nice machines
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L109[06:42:41] <Fluburtur> I might get a micro quadcopter for free
L110[06:42:42] <Fluburtur> nice
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L112[06:45:23] <Althego> finally, managed to finish an acceptable audio for the eve mission
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L114[06:46:10] <Althego> btw the speakers still havent arrived, more than a week after i ordered them, i should have picked them up
L115[06:46:32] <Fluburtur> eh im used to 3 weeks when I order stuff
L116[06:46:41] <Althego> but normally it is 1 day
L117[06:46:50] <Fluburtur> one time my crap arrived in 2 and I was surprised by how fast it was
L118[06:47:03] <Althego> i dont believe we got so capitalist that 1 month before christmas everybody starts to buy all kinds of stuff
L119[06:47:19] <Althego> and you know it just needs to move inside the city
L120[06:47:26] <Fluburtur> yeah
L121[06:47:28] <GlassYuri> I think I once got something from china in under a week
L122[06:47:32] <Althego> but i didnt want to waste 2 hours
L123[06:47:43] <Althego> i got something from use in 1 day
L124[06:47:54] <Althego> then it took another week for the customs :)
L125[06:48:00] <Althego> *usa
L126[06:48:04] <Fluburtur> when I ordered my steam controller the delivery guy wasn't doing all of his work so I had to call the customer service lady 3 times
L127[06:48:27] <Althego> i tried to call them but hung up after 10 minutes of waiting music
L128[06:48:27] <Fluburtur> at the end she was so pissed she went to yell a the guy
L129[06:48:30] <Fluburtur> it was a nice lady
L130[06:48:34] <Althego> ok it wasnt 10 minutes, just 9:%9
L131[06:49:39] <Arcanitor> we should deliver packages by loading them into cheap ICBM's with minimum of guidance
L132[06:50:02] <Arcanitor> few hours delivery to pretty much anywhere
L133[06:50:10] <Arcanitor> maybe
L134[06:50:27] <GlassYuri> Arcanitor, regular small packet air also only has a few hours of actual flight time
L135[06:50:29] <Fluburtur> early warning systems will go nuts
L136[06:51:30] <Althego> survival of the package not guaranteed :)
L137[06:54:07] <GlassYuri> Althego, another thing that existing services already provide
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L144[06:56:57] <Althego> but not with this rate of success
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L149[07:54:43] <Fluburtur> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255748182426910720/385790729273868288/DSC_8061.JPG
L150[07:55:15] <Fluburtur> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255748182426910720/385790854234898432/DSC_8062.JPG
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L152[08:00:14] <daey> that latest NK rocket launch was nice.
L153[08:00:26] <Fluburtur> yeah
L154[08:00:40] <daey> really impressive how fast they are able to develop their rocket program
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L158[08:22:51] <Althego> and it is finished https://youtu.be/bMjlPHoZF6c
L159[08:22:51] <kmath> YouTube - Bathysphere in the seas of Eve in KSP 1.3.1
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L176[09:23:17] <EricPoehlsen> Hi anyone online who can answer a question regarding Kerbal Star Systems and Galileo Planets Pack - I want to use both - do I need to add the GPP_Secondary or is that not necessary?
L177[09:24:03] <EricPoehlsen> it is mentioned in the docs that both mods are compatible yet it is not really documented on how to go about it
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L180[09:40:50] <Fluburtur> behold https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255748182426910720/385817420876742689/DSC_8064.JPG
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L186[09:50:37] <TheKosmonaut> Careful. It looks like you’ve made an infiniglider
L187[09:50:57] <Fluburtur> t's not too far from that really
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L192[10:38:34] <ve2dmn> Can you glide to space in KSP (using bugs)?
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L198[10:51:15] <Althego> to orbit or just space?
L199[10:51:24] <Althego> but i think infiniglide is not a thing anymore
L200[10:55:01] <Fluburtur> I should make a special super plane for my collab with drac
L201[10:55:16] <Fluburtur> name it "gleipnir" or something from the ace combat series
L202[10:55:34] <Fluburtur> because the gleipnir is scary as crap
L203[11:01:52] <Althego> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleipnir
L204[11:01:58] <Althego> hehe those impossible things are possible
L205[11:02:11] <Althego> except i dont know what sinews and spittle is
L206[11:02:55] <Arcanitor> spittle is saliva
L207[11:03:02] <Arcanitor> sinews are like tendons and stuff
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L209[11:05:01] <ve2dmn> So dwarves are from Norse Mythos... where are elves from? The same?
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L217[11:24:39] <EricPoehlsen> hmm starting KSP - six minutes and counting ... KSS+GPP + all the mods I use seems to be a heavy load for my laptop
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L219[11:25:18] <Arcanitor> it's a laptop
L220[11:25:20] <Arcanitor> of course it is
L221[11:26:20] <bees> EricPoehlsen: troubleshooting for long KSP loads - 1) check if you have enough memory to keep KSP in it 2) check for unused/misconfigured network adapters
L222[11:26:25] <kubi> it seems to me that there is a memory leak in some of the mods
L223[11:26:36] <kubi> how can I check?
L224[11:26:40] <kubi> is there any debug tool?
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L226[11:27:51] <Arcanitor> what does KSP have to do with network adaptors?
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L228[11:28:20] <EricPoehlsen> hmm it is eating up about 4.9G or RAM currently
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L230[11:29:15] <EricPoehlsen> maybe I should drop the visual enhancement stuff (EVE and scatterer)
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L233[11:34:11] <EricPoehlsen> ok 15 minutes is not acceptable I think I'll drop GPP and the visual stuff ... KSS should be more enough to explore
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L236[11:39:17] <UmbralRaptor> Arcanitor: Unity
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L239[11:49:14] <bees> Arcanitor: black magic that causes very slow load if you have unresponive network adapters
L240[11:50:25] <bees> EricPoehlsen: if you have 8+gb ram in your pc, then it is probably a network adapter issue
L241[11:50:44] <ve2dmn> bees: I did not know that... symptoms?
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L243[11:51:51] <EricPoehlsen> its 8GB ram and the usage peaked at 5.7G before dropping to 3.2 after switching from the loading screen to the menut
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L245[11:52:44] <bees> ve2dmn: every file loaded takes ~0.1 second instead of ~0.001 second
L246[11:53:08] <EricPoehlsen> hmm I don't see anything happen on the network stack
L247[11:53:10] <bees> ve2dmn: because it first tries to search network for it, and if network times out... well, you have issues
L248[11:53:28] <bees> hamachi, vmware, etc etc etc?
L249[11:54:59] <EricPoehlsen> the 'network' column of ksp_x64.exe in the task-monitor says "0%"
L250[11:56:42] <ve2dmn> bees: hamachi... I havne't heard that name in a long time
L251[11:58:05] <Althego> lately i hear proxmox, esxi, lxc a lot
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L259[12:32:05] <Mathuin> For contracts that involve retrieving objects (not Kerbals, but 'Module 9-6RL' etc), do I just need a probe with a claw and a big heat shield behind which the module can hide, or what?
L260[12:32:26] <Althego> heat shield is not always necessary
L261[12:32:52] <Mathuin> If I had a space plane with cargo bay I could shove it in there, but I never seem to make those work.
L262[12:44:06] <Fluburtur> http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/Gleipnir
L263[12:49:35] <Fluburtur> http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/Fenrir#Ace Combat X: Skies of Deception
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L267[12:53:26] <Althego> i am down to single thread performance
L268[12:55:21] <Fluburtur> good plane http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/XFA-24A_Apalis#Ace Combat X: Skies of Deception
L269[12:56:44] <Mathuin> KSP just went into slideshow for some reason
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L271[12:58:11] <Mathuin> Ah, kill Chrome and we're back to one second per second
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L275[13:16:34] <Fluburtur> http://acecombat.wikia.com/wiki/Sublimation
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L278[13:23:53] <Fluburtur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading
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L298[14:51:05] <Althego> i dont understand how the people in the videos can assemble a stock propeller that ffast
L299[14:51:25] <Althego> for me it is always full of tiny changes until it starts to move fluently
L300[14:52:31] <Althego> now i am trying the tube type instead of the fairing type, because that had problems, like after changing an unrelated part of the plane, i always had to rebuild the fairing otherwise it was just stuck
L301[14:52:39] <Althego> and i get the same problems
L302[14:52:59] <Althego> move parts a bit around and to make it work. it doesnt at least not yet
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L304[14:56:18] <EricPoehlsen> Althego - a lot of those videos are like "I did that for four hours, let me show you the one time it worked"
L305[14:56:40] <Althego> hehehe
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L317[15:32:03] <ve2dmn> EricPoehlsen: AKA, the magic of hollywood: Post-editing
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L327[16:33:23] <Fluburtur> look at the wobble of the tail on tis one https://youtu.be/vJzDRsEKDa0?t=194
L328[16:33:23] <kmath> YouTube - 62 mph Crosswind in Close-up: Storm Doris
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L352[18:10:27] <Supernovy> Evening, Gentlemen.
L353[18:12:08] <icefire> konbanevening
L354[18:15:32] <Leveller> heh
L355[18:28:52] <Mathuin> Can reputation go over 100? I'm over 75 on the scrol and I can see blue and pink lines above 100.
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L357[18:50:16] <Iskierka> https://i.imgur.com/O70YBhP.jpg
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L365[19:52:31] <transitbiker> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcAmNb5XQuI
L366[19:52:31] <kmath> YouTube - KSP - Maximum Decouplers!
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L370[20:21:12] <Scolar_Visari> Sons and daughters of Kerbin: Who is looking forward to that big Falcon Heavy launch next month!? Oh, wait, it was moved back again? My bad.
L371[20:22:18] <Scolar_Visari> Almost as good: Next Dragon mission to involve a pre-owned first stage! http://spacenews.com/nasa-approves-use-of-previously-flown-booster-on-next-dragon-mission/
L372[20:22:31] <bees> Scolar_Visari: Falcon Heavy | Demo Flight 1 (Maiden Flight) - http://www.spacex.com/webcast/ - TBD/NET May 31, 2018 02:22:09 UTC
L373[20:22:36] <bees> T-6 months and holding
L374[20:23:15] <Scolar_Visari> bees: Let's see that get moved back . . . Again.
L375[20:23:27] <bees> it already moved back a full minute
L376[20:23:35] <bees> you cursed it!
L377[20:23:55] <Scolar_Visari> The Falcon Heavy is becoming what nuclear fusion is to the electric grid: Soon! (TM)
L378[20:24:38] <icefire> ok so many strapping together three rockets with duct tape wasn't as simple as we thought it wouild be
L379[20:24:43] <icefire> maybe*
L380[20:25:34] <Scolar_Visari> icefire: Though it's been suspected since the Falcon 9's improvements that the Falcon Heavy is simply not worth the trouble.
L381[20:26:01] <Scolar_Visari> Particularly since it appears the once strongly championed cross feeding may never be a thing.
L382[20:26:03] <icefire> the super heavy lift market doesn't seem to be in very high demand
L383[20:27:20] <Scolar_Visari> Well as a super heavy lift vehicle, the Falcon Heavy wouldn't be that particularly good since it sort of has a puny payload fairing and it can only be, "super heavy" when you throw away everything.
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L385[20:28:16] <Scolar_Visari> Might as well wait for the BFR, which is also coming Soon! (R)
L386[20:28:25] <icefire> BFR seems... ambitious
L387[20:29:03] <Scolar_Visari> The timeframe for its development is also laughably ambitious.
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L389[20:30:37] <Scolar_Visari> Remember: Musk has gone on record as saying there would be manned missions to Mars by *2024*. Even if that was without a BFR, I don't see any way in which they could develop the deep space equipment needed for such a mission with such a short period of time.
L390[20:30:39] <tawny> at least bfr seems to maybe just be something flashy to get investors interested, and not necessarily something that's really intended to exist
L391[20:31:02] <Scolar_Visari> tawny: I wouldn't count on investors much, largely since SpaceX is not publically traded.
L392[20:31:51] <Scolar_Visari> There aren't really much in the way of large companies which would throw their money towards anything Musk is advertising, particularly since the LEO internet thing sort of fell apart.
L393[20:33:04] <tawny> well, that's why I think that sort of hype generation would be a useful plan
L394[20:35:04] <tawny> I'm not sure what exactly the relationship between spacex and its investors is, but I suspect it doesn't involve as much haggling over financial nitpicks as a publically traded company would
L395[20:35:32] <tawny> so getting investment, I suspect, is less about showing some sort of clear financial gains, and more about showing them cool stuff to get them excited
L396[20:35:33] <Scolar_Visari> tawny: Generating hype would almost certainly have the opposite effect on any company that could funnel useful amounts of money towards SpaceX.
L397[20:35:49] <tawny> how so
L398[20:36:10] <Scolar_Visari> They're going to see the 2024 manned mission estimate for what it is: Total bunkem.
L399[20:36:46] <Scolar_Visari> Why invest in a company that's making clearly irresponsible remarks?
L400[20:37:30] <Scolar_Visari> We're not talking about internet space enthusiasts funding SpaceX: We're talking about large corporations that will want a return on their investment.
L401[20:38:00] <tawny> mhm
L402[20:38:01] <Scolar_Visari> As it stands, there's not really a clear RoI that SpaceX is offering with its BFR talk.
L403[20:38:31] <tawny> but, they'll have five years before it becomes clear there's no delivery happening
L404[20:38:31] <Scolar_Visari> As icefire mentioned, the demand for superheavy launch vehicles is not terribly high!
L405[20:38:56] <tawny> also, to be clear, I'm not saying I think it's a good idea to have made the whole BFR announcement haha
L406[20:39:05] <Scolar_Visari> Five years? It's painfully clear now that SpaceX is simply not going to deliver on any of its current BFR estimates the same as they've had to delay the Falcon Heavy.
L407[20:39:11] <tawny> I think it's definitely kind of a silly idea, and an obvious long shot
L408[20:39:22] <tawny> I'm just guessing at what spacex's intentions were
L409[20:39:36] <tawny> because I doubt they're all so stupid that they don't know it's unlikely
L410[20:40:05] <Scolar_Visari> Musk has made his intentions clear from the beginning: Go to Mars. He simply hasn't really explained how any of that is going to get funding except for vague mentions of untapped demand.
L411[20:40:08] <tawny> this may also be some sort of play to get interest for an IPO
L412[20:40:25] <tawny> but musk's also said he doesn't want to do that
L413[20:40:39] <TheKosmonaut> He has stated he will not make SpX public
L414[20:41:08] <tawny> the other possibility
L415[20:41:08] <TheKosmonaut> For one, there’s not much stopping Bezos from attempting a hostile takeover if they did.
L416[20:41:26] <tawny> is that nobody at spacex except musk thinks mars 2024 is likely or possible
L417[20:41:34] <TheKosmonaut> And Bezos is probably wealthy enough to attempt it
L418[20:41:38] <tawny> and that his big ideas are finally outracing his ability to make them happen
L419[20:41:53] <Scolar_Visari> Kosmonaut: Indeed, he's the wealthiest organism on the planet and looks sort of like Lex Luthor (but that's not a bad thing, as I hate Superman).
L420[20:42:18] <TheKosmonaut> He also doesn’t like SpaceX
L421[20:42:29] <TheKosmonaut> They’re like the rich version of a slap fight
L422[20:43:09] <Scolar_Visari> Bezos is Gladstone to Musk's Disraeli.
L423[20:43:52] <Scolar_Visari> If Gladstone was rilly, rilly, obscenely wealthy, that is.
L424[20:44:00] <tawny> pfff
L425[20:45:59] ⇦ Quits: Ezriilc (~Ezriilc@173.168.39.49) (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.Kerbaltek.com))
L426[20:46:38] <Scolar_Visari> To be blunt, there have been warning signs at SpaceX for a while. Employee turnaround has always been an issue in particular.
L427[20:48:38] ⇨ Joins: tawny- (~tawny@pool-72-66-36-135.washdc.east.verizon.net)
L428[20:49:50] <Scolar_Visari> The SpaceX Mars architecture is a little iffy, too. Launching your crewed payloads into orbit and then waiting days or weeks to refuel them does the exact opposite of what virtually every other mission proposal advocates.
L429[20:50:37] <tawny-> oh? They wouldn't be launching the fuel first?
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L431[20:51:02] <Scolar_Visari> Typically, one would want to launch fueled payloads first and *then* their crew.
L432[20:51:30] <tawny-> that does seem weird
L433[20:51:35] *** tawny- is now known as tawny
L434[20:51:38] <Scolar_Visari> That way launch delays or failures aren't as serious.
L435[20:51:42] <tawny> did they give any reason for doing it the other way
L436[20:52:17] <Scolar_Visari> They never gave a particular justification for avoiding crew transfers or using a propellant depot.
L437[20:52:56] * Scolar_Visari laments that Musk, more than any other person, should know what sort of cascades single launch delays can cause.
L438[20:53:52] <Scolar_Visari> Pushing back a mission a week or two for interplanetary transfers could also result in a complete scrub, courtesy of Mars' annoyingly transfer windos.
L439[20:55:49] <tawny> mhm
L440[20:55:58] <Scolar_Visari> With four BFR fueling launches to each manned vehicle, a propellant depot would be pretty attractive.
L441[20:56:50] <Scolar_Visari> Not to mention that each manned transfer would require at least one cargo flight apiece.
L442[20:56:58] <tawny> god, it's really gonna take FOUR?
L443[20:57:18] <tawny> so, five launches total? Or four launches total, one of which is crewed?
L444[20:57:27] <Scolar_Visari> According to SpaceX's early estimates.
L445[20:57:50] <Scolar_Visari> Five launches total. One for the manned vehicle itself and four for the tankers.
L446[20:58:20] <Scolar_Visari> However, again, you're looking at one cargo to two cargo payloads in addition to that if you want your people to actually survive for more than a few weeks.
L447[20:58:37] <Scolar_Visari> So it'd be more like ten to fifteen launches within a few weeks per transfer window.
L448[20:58:51] <Scolar_Visari> Unless you sent the cargo ahead by two and a half years.
L449[20:59:19] <Scolar_Visari> This is making electric Mars transfer vehicles look increasingly attractive.
L450[21:00:19] <taniwha> one thing to keep in mind is you can assemble things (including fleets) in orbit long before the window
L451[21:00:42] <taniwha> then send crew and last-minute supplies just before the window
L452[21:01:18] <tawny> yeah, but according to Scolar_Visari it sounds like they're not doing it that way?
L453[21:01:28] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Hence sending missions ahead by 2.5 years. Though those missions also don't require high thrust/high delta-v profiles, which makes electric propulsion even more sensible!
L454[21:01:49] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: no need to send them that far ahead
L455[21:01:56] <taniwha> assemble in Earth orbit
L456[21:02:33] <taniwha> though that does assume the engines and fuel will be reliable after a period in orbit
L457[21:03:03] <taniwha> but then again, better to find that out in LEO than when hyperbolic around Mars :)
L458[21:03:15] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: That's about the Synodic Period for Earth orbit. You don't want to send everything at the same time, especially since SpaceX wants to generate propellant in situ.
L459[21:03:35] <icefire> that sounds scary
L460[21:03:39] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: you have missed my point
L461[21:03:48] <icefire> if your propellant factories fail I don't think there can be a backup
L462[21:03:52] <icefire> no free return from mars
L463[21:04:01] <Scolar_Visari> icefire: Well, again, hence you want the ISRU stuff on Mars well before you launch your manned payloads.
L464[21:04:11] <taniwha> (and yeah, you'd probably send stuff in advance anyway)
L465[21:04:20] <Scolar_Visari> If it's not working, you need to assess a solution and send a replacement if applicable.
L466[21:04:48] * Scolar_Visari can imagine ISRU stuff having many, many, many, many points of failure.
L467[21:04:53] <taniwha> but if you need to do multiple launches just to prepare one ship, do it way in advance so delays don't scrub the mission
L468[21:05:51] <taniwha> can even double as a research lab or tourist stop while waiting for the window :)
L469[21:06:08] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Another reason why I love electric Mars transfer vehicles. They don't need so many launches.
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L471[21:07:48] <Scolar_Visari> Heck, a plucky little electric cargo transfer vehicle could stay on a transfer orbit, just punt its payload into an aerocapture course and continue on its way back to Earth without having to make a burn at Mars.
L472[21:08:13] <Scolar_Visari> And, if possible, aerocapture itself at Earth without spending weeks and months making a braking burn!
L473[21:10:30] <taniwha> there will be nothing plucky about an electric cargo transfer vehicle
L474[21:11:53] <Scolar_Visari> OF course there is! It's like the Little Engine that Could! Painfully low thrust, rather small size and it goes up a large hill (er, gravity well).
L475[21:11:56] <taniwha> electric propulsion is a cool idea, but having something worth using for actual transport is a LONG way off
L476[21:12:12] <taniwha> hehe
L477[21:12:20] <Scolar_Visari> Psht, DRA 5.0 Addendum 2 seriously proposed *Solar* Electric Propulsion for manned missions.
L478[21:12:43] <tawny> I think the real takeaway is that we're a long ways away from mars in general
L479[21:12:46] <tawny> figuratively speaking
L480[21:12:49] <tawny> also literally but
L481[21:12:50] <Scolar_Visari> Using, mind you, either existing off the shelf electric drives (albeit in the dozens) or near future MHD.
L482[21:13:01] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: geriatric astronauts, eh?
L483[21:13:23] <taniwha> (who were young when they left Earth's surface)
L484[21:13:44] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Well NASA's ADD 2 proposal largely centered on the manned capsule boosting into a Mars transfer trajectory and making a rendezvous with the SEP MTV en route
L485[21:13:55] <Scolar_Visari> This idea, however, has been around since the 50's or 60's.
L486[21:14:29] <taniwha> most ideas back then were rather... overly ambitious
L487[21:14:42] <tawny> isn't that when they dreamed up STS too?
L488[21:14:45] <Scolar_Visari> Unmanned payloads could do it now. Heck, we've had a SEP probe using older propulsion tech rendezvous with and orbit two different main Belt asteroids. Sending payloads to Mars with that is hardly out of the question.
L489[21:14:53] <tawny> and when STS was MORE than just the space shuttle
L490[21:15:17] <Scolar_Visari> tawny: STS had its origins in the late 60's, though it's not like NASA had any chance of getting what they requested per budgetary concerns.
L491[21:15:41] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: a payload that's actually useful on Mars is a far cry from a scientific payload intended to study an asteroid or two
L492[21:16:23] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: I mean as far as mass is concerned. A specific payload (such as a base or descent vehicle) is a different matter, but the ability to haul something there is almost extant right now.
L493[21:17:11] <Scolar_Visari> It's just a matter of copying the ISS photovoltaics, slapping them on a bus with a dozen or more electric rockets, and then waiting the twenty years for some one to come up with a 100 metric ton payload
L494[21:18:00] <Scolar_Visari> Nuclear Electric Propulsion was also proposed, though no one's launched a multi-megaWatt reactor into space, and the R&D for one of those is obscene.
L495[21:18:07] <taniwha> power required for an electric thruster: F * Ve / (2*e) (e = efficiency)
L496[21:18:26] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: The idea was that a megaWatt's worth of photovoltaics would be used.
L497[21:18:40] <taniwha> so, >> 1000m^2
L498[21:18:46] <taniwha> very heavy
L499[21:19:40] <taniwha> (1.1kW/m^2 at 1AU, but solar is maybe 50% efficient, then factor in 1/r^2 for going to Mars)
L500[21:20:11] <taniwha> and solar panels are several kg/m^2
L501[21:20:17] <taniwha> (last I heard)
L502[21:20:35] <taniwha> thus: a long way off
L503[21:20:52] <Scolar_Visari> Again, for cargo payloads, it wouldn't need to burn anywhere close to MArs.
L504[21:21:22] <taniwha> yes it will: corrections
L505[21:21:25] * Scolar_Visari notes all of DRA 5.0 Add 1 and Add 2 payloads were dropped off into aerocapture.
L506[21:21:39] <Scolar_Visari> Correction's aren't going to be a serious consumer of delta-v
L507[21:21:43] <tawny> and even if the bus is on a free return you'd need to get cargo from that to the surface
L508[21:22:15] <tawny> I guess you could just say "oh that's a problem for whoever's payload it is"
L509[21:22:34] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: you seem to be underestimating how big space is and how fast things move
L510[21:22:56] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Er, I think not, as I'm literally recounting from the Add 2 paper made by NASA.
L511[21:23:07] <taniwha> (hint for the first: 64-bit double gives about 1mm precision at 1AU)
L512[21:23:23] <Scolar_Visari> It's not like aerocapture from a Mars transfer orbit is anything new.
L513[21:23:33] <taniwha> actually, it is
L514[21:24:02] <taniwha> from my understanding, NASA does not do aerocaptures because they're too dangerous
L515[21:24:46] <Scolar_Visari> How did you think those surface probes make it to Mars?
L516[21:25:07] <taniwha> retros
L517[21:25:26] <taniwha> sure, they aerobrakes for entry
L518[21:25:29] <taniwha> (unavoidable)
L519[21:27:43] <Scolar_Visari> None of the cruise stages for the orbiters really had that much propellant in them when they were on transfer orbits.
L520[21:27:55] <taniwha> it came up in a Scott Manley video a while back when he was talking with someone (I don't remember who). Not only did NASA not use aerobraking, but after doing simulations to ensure they hit the right landing spot, they "flew the simulation" (meaning lots of correction burns)
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L522[21:29:49] <Scolar_Visari> None of that really required that much propellant though, and in the context of the proposed cargo payloads, they would have their own hypergolic thrusters for fine adjustments after seperation.
L523[21:30:08] <Scolar_Visari> They already need it for the ~500 m/s of delta-v needed to land after terminal velocity.
L524[21:32:14] <Supernovy> I thought the standard procedure was propulsive capture then aerobraking to lower orbit.
L525[21:34:04] <taniwha> Supernovy: that, maybe. my memory is a bit fuzzy on the details
L526[21:34:22] <Supernovy> I seem to remember at least one Mars probe doing that.
L527[21:34:33] <Scolar_Visari> Supernovy: Landing probes, with the exception of the Viking probes, do it all at once. Propellant makes up a very, very tiny amount of the cruising stage's mass.
L528[21:34:39] <Supernovy> Landers, I think, might have gone straight to - yeah that
L529[21:35:05] <Scolar_Visari> Most of the propulsive braking is done after the aeroshell and parachute (which would not be applicable with larger hypothetical payloads) has done its work.
L530[21:35:18] <Supernovy> But I was talking orbiters.
L531[21:35:38] <taniwha> the vid was about Curiosity
L532[21:36:09] <Supernovy> What vid?
L533[21:36:29] <taniwha> the Scott Manley vid I mentioned
L534[21:36:37] <Supernovy> Ah.
L535[21:36:50] <Scolar_Visari> Orbiters don't exactly come with protective aeroshells, so straight to aerobraking is not much of an option for them unless you like really long orbits!
L536[21:37:14] <TheKosmonaut> Aerobraking has been used before around mars, but not aerocapture
L537[21:38:17] <Scolar_Visari> Kosmonaut: I was using aerocapture in lieu of constantly describing landing directly on Mars after removing one's velocity with the local atmopshere.
L538[21:38:22] <Scolar_Visari> And then landing.
L539[21:38:36] <TheKosmonaut> The MRO changed its period of 35h into a two hour period irl. That’s about all I can think of off the top of my head
L540[21:39:58] <TheKosmonaut> I think JAXA were the first to ever demonstrate Aerobraking in reality.
L541[21:40:03] <TheKosmonaut> Back in the early 90s
L542[21:41:18] <TheKosmonaut> After that, I think Magellan did something around Venus.
L543[21:41:42] <TheKosmonaut> Then there was one where they used the solar panels like wings over Mars in the late 90s.
L544[21:42:32] <Scolar_Visari> Kosmonaut: If one's being generous, Zond sort of did a similar thing when the successful missions used skip-reentries.
L545[21:45:11] <TheKosmonaut> They fell... with style!
L546[21:45:56] <bees> solar electric is barely viable
L547[21:46:13] <bees> and that is if something ejects you from leo
L548[21:47:11] <Scolar_Visari> bees: So are we going to get a demonstration of why NASA's Add 2 work on SEP is not viable or must we take your word for it?
L549[21:47:40] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: I have. now you demonstrate why it /is/ viable
L550[21:48:28] <taniwha> (note, however, that I didn't really say it wasn't viable, only that it's a long way off)
L551[21:50:05] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: As I said, it'd detailed in Add 2.
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L553[21:51:27] <taniwha> so provide links
L554[21:52:27] <Scolar_Visari> https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/NASA-SP-2009-566-ADD2.pdf Page 152
L555[21:52:40] <Scolar_Visari> Under 3.3. A Combined Solar Electric and Storable Chemical Propulsion
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L557[21:56:25] ⇨ Joins: lordcirth (~lordcirth@45.72.215.107)
L558[21:56:31] <lordcirth> https://xkcd.com/809/
L559[21:56:33] <taniwha> going by table 3-39, it is a long way off yet
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L562[21:58:29] <taniwha> at at 7 sls launches, not really any better than SpaceX's proposal
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L564[21:59:17] <Scolar_Visari> Er, 3-39 doesn't detail anything other than the mission parameters.
L565[21:59:35] <taniwha> and by my understanding, 440 days is a bit longer than NASA wants to leave its astronauts exposed to interplanetary radiation
L566[22:00:12] <Scolar_Visari> 7 launches for one manned payloads plus two unmanned payloads. Doing the same with the BFR would require *15* launches.
L567[22:00:13] <taniwha> (ESA, on the other hand, might)
L568[22:00:59] <taniwha> anyway, I don't really care. may the best mission "win" :)
L569[22:01:12] <Scolar_Visari> Existing career radiation limits are too strict for any interplanetary mission at this moment in time, they'd have to be waived regardless of whether it's 100 days or 500.
L570[22:01:51] <Scolar_Visari> Not that we're quite sure how severe such radiation exposure would be in any event, given our woefully inadequate understanding of the phenomenon.
L571[22:03:03] * Scolar_Visari wonders if Roscosmos could be bothered do launch a Zond spinoff into a high orbit for a few years.
L572[22:03:22] <taniwha> yeah, all the low-exposure stuff is extrapolated from high-exposure, which is nigh on useless
L573[22:03:35] <Scolar_Visari> If the Russian tortoise they send into orbit returns as Gamera, radiation exposure may be dangerous.
L574[22:03:52] <taniwha> who's Gamera?
L575[22:04:12] <Scolar_Visari> Gamera, in addition to being one of the first kaiju, is also a *turtle* kaiju.
L576[22:04:32] <Arcanitor> basically turtle godzilla according to wikipedia
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L578[22:05:16] <Scolar_Visari> Amusingly, Gamera ends up on Mars at one point in his storied but second-banana career.
L579[22:05:21] <taniwha> my understanding is the kaiju were always there, just woken up by nukes etc
L580[22:06:23] <Scolar_Visari> Depends on the movie.
L581[22:06:25] <TheKosmonaut> Scolar_Visari: I wonder if Roscosmos could be bothered to launch a rocket in a year without absolutely insane mistakes made
L582[22:06:36] * TheKosmonaut coughs and points at Fregat
L583[22:06:55] <Scolar_Visari> Kosmonaut: Soyuz and Progress haven't had *that* many issues lately. Though that last satellite launch
L584[22:07:09] * Scolar_Visari thinks the last Progress failure was also MS-01.
L585[22:07:23] <Scolar_Visari> Clearly they should've launched it as Linux-01.
L586[22:09:10] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Interestingly enough, the many proposed Lunar gateway stations would be an excellent way of testing out long term radiation exposure.
L587[22:09:47] <Arcanitor> can a sufficiently large and powerful electromagnetic field shield against radiation?
L588[22:10:09] <Arcanitor> or at least the kinds of radiation we are concerned about?
L589[22:10:23] <Arcanitor> the earth's seems to work quite well, but would a small one work?
L590[22:11:22] <Scolar_Visari> Arcanitor: You'd need a duel electromagnetic field and plasma sheath for it to function, but it could work in theory albeit with high energy requirements.
L591[22:12:02] <Scolar_Visari> You only need shield sensitive bits (avionics, crew, mission critical hardware) too, rather than the entire ship (which should be mostly radiator panels if you're also generating enough poop for active shielding).
L592[22:12:18] * Scolar_Visari recalls a few papers on the subject.
L593[22:12:43] <taniwha> actually, you do need to watch out for the rest of the ship
L594[22:12:55] <taniwha> you don't want to activate the ship's structure
L595[22:13:27] <taniwha> or have the rest of the ship reflect radiation towards your crew
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L597[22:15:00] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: Some of the papers I've read suggested otherwise, albeit largely in concerns for electromagnetic shields instead of the plasma sheaths.
L598[22:16:13] <taniwha> try reading the atomic rockets page on radiation. very informative
L599[22:16:31] <taniwha> (I read the shielding section just the other day, way updated from 8 years ago)
L600[22:18:32] <Scolar_Visari> I prefer to read the technical literature.
L601[22:19:31] <taniwha> it /is/ technical literature :P
L602[22:19:47] <taniwha> (in fact, it's a lot of "your" technical literature distilled into one place)
L603[22:20:14] <taniwha> with links
L604[22:21:55] <Scolar_Visari> It's not so much techincal literature as it is what a few people think of technical literature, and a lot of their stuff doesn't have much in the way of citations.
L605[22:22:17] *** Dozeman979 is now known as Dman979
L606[22:23:29] <Scolar_Visari> Besides, I make a point of saving the good stuff on my hard drive for notes.
L607[22:24:38] ⇨ Joins: Glass|phone (~GlassFrag@122x216x200x226.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp)
L608[22:24:52] <Glass|phone> https://twitter.com/kazoosky/status/936282423905591297
L609[22:24:52] <kmath> <kazoosky> エッシャーがメンテナンスマニュアル作ったらしい https://t.co/sPRJWUuHCP
L610[22:25:34] <Scolar_Visari> As I recall, the last time I took a serious look was when they gave Gravity the AR, "Seal of Approval".
L611[22:25:45] <Scolar_Visari> From the website: "Gravity is a nail-biting edge-of-your-seat movie that somehow manages to simultaneously be quite scientifically accurate."
L612[22:26:32] * Scolar_Visari notes the scientific accuracies in Gravity. 1. Space, in fact, exists.
L613[22:29:42] <Scolar_Visari> To be honest, Gravity is about as plausible as Armageddon.
L614[22:30:58] ⇨ Joins: ConductorCat (~Conductor@50-78-76-25-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
L615[22:32:19] * Scolar_Visari ponders why Gravity did not take the high road and just have George Clooney float around by himself.
L616[22:32:52] <Scolar_Visari> You know. Like open water, but in space.
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L618[22:35:40] <Scolar_Visari> That would've been really interesting, the more I think about it. Astronaut stranded in a decaying orbit after a serious incident, left to their own thoughts.
L619[22:36:16] <Scolar_Visari> Mission control piping in rescue attempt updates, encouraging the wayward astronaut to stay positive.
L620[22:36:59] <Glass|phone> my VN lags
L621[22:37:06] * Scolar_Visari ponders a rescue attempt with an ISS docked Soyuz on their already barebones propellant capacity.
L622[22:37:09] <Glass|phone> what is wrong with this computer
L623[22:37:20] <Scolar_Visari> Glass: You require more Vespin Gas?
L624[22:38:29] <taniwha> Scolar_Visari: as far as Hollywood movies go, Gravity /is/ scientifically accurate :(
L625[22:38:30] <Scolar_Visari> Seriously, you should get to it. You don't want to be brought lo by just two Zerglings now, do you?
L626[22:39:03] <Scolar_Visari> taniwha: No more so than virtually any other science-fiction film to be brutally honest.
L627[22:40:01] <Scolar_Visari> I think the reason it got so many accolades was its effective use of 3D. Otherwise, I really can't recommend it over Space Truckers, a movie that had better on screen chemistry.
L628[22:40:53] <taniwha> space truckers? so which is the ripoff of the other? truckers or cowboys?
L629[22:41:52] <Scolar_Visari> Space Cowboys had absolutely no cowboys in space. Space Truckers, however, was exactly what the title suggests.
L630[22:42:12] <Scolar_Visari> Space Truckers also came out a full three years before Eastwood's Space Cowboys!
L631[22:43:15] <taniwha> cowboy is used in place of rebel, sometimes
L632[22:43:16] * Scolar_Visari actually liked Space Truckers and RobotJox, which also had a more accurate thirty second space scene than Gravity's entire runtime.
L633[22:43:32] <taniwha> RoboJocks?
L634[22:43:45] <Scolar_Visari> However it's spelled. Best giant robot movie ever.
L635[22:43:47] <taniwha> (I remember seeing that, but I think it was that spelling)
L636[22:44:06] <Scolar_Visari> Internet sez Robot Jox.
L637[22:44:12] <taniwha> unfortunately, I don't actually remember the movie
L638[22:44:22] <taniwha> internet says a lot of things
L639[22:44:43] <taniwha> including the earth being flat, at the center of the universe, and evolution is a myth
L640[22:45:01] <Scolar_Visari> Unsurprising: It didn't really get much of a wide release, and it was panned by critics and its original screenwriter, famous anti-war science-fiction author Joe Haldeman.
L641[22:45:21] <Scolar_Visari> Despite that, I still love it. It was kind of funny and the special effects were pretty good stuff in the era of VHS rentals.
L642[22:45:37] <Scolar_Visari> It was also, for many years, the only good giant stompy robot movie.
L643[22:46:12] <taniwha> it might also be an american vs australian thing
L644[22:46:15] <taniwha> (the spelling)
L645[22:47:04] <Scolar_Visari> Or Jox sounds cooler because it has an X!
L646[22:47:07] <taniwha> I would have seen it in australia, I think, so probably around 92-94
L647[22:47:24] <taniwha> could also have been robojox
L648[22:47:29] <taniwha> but there was no t
L649[22:47:39] <taniwha> /that/ much I do remember
L650[22:48:35] <Scolar_Visari> It's not a really successful critically panned unless there are at least three or four alternate English titles.
L651[22:49:06] * Scolar_Visari glares at the various Lucio Fulci alternate titles.
L652[22:50:31] <Glass|phone> this is ridiculous... I wrote a macro that displays information about participants in a battle and it resulted in the battle script getting stuck in an infinite loop
L653[22:50:48] <Arcanitor> w0t
L654[22:51:12] <Scolar_Visari> Battle? You must be confused, your game is in another castle.
L655[22:51:32] <Glass|phone> you select which player characters participate, then the macro runs, and you go back to character selection
L656[22:52:09] <Scolar_Visari> This is #KSPOfficial. The only battles that happen here are between warring super powers wielding ballistic missiles with strategic yield nuclear warheads. Those battles are no games!
L657[22:52:48] <Scolar_Visari> If you want games, you should go to tactical yield.
L658[22:55:06] <Glass|phone> I am a future professional game developer, so this is dead serious while also being a game
L659[22:55:08] <taniwha> do you want to play a game of tactical nuclear warfare?
L660[22:55:52] <Scolar_Visari> Wouldn't you rather play a game of Jinga?
L661[22:56:01] <Glass|phone> what could you possibly lose except your friends, your skin, and your planet
L662[22:56:59] <Scolar_Visari> Glass: Psht, that's only when you start playing with higher yield planetary level devastation devices like Reality Television bombs.
L663[22:57:28] <Scolar_Visari> Jersey Shore and Keeping Up with the Kardashians are each the equivalent of 100 megatons.
L664[22:58:57] <Scolar_Visari> Not nearly as devastating as the Roland Emmerich Doomsday Device, however.
L665[23:00:06] * Scolar_Visari recalls the many times Roland Emmerich depopulated Earth . . . On screen, that is.
L666[23:03:23] <Scolar_Visari> And Emmerich can't even hold a candle to the awesome destructive power that is the Fidget Spinner.
L667[23:04:17] * Scolar_Visari leaves to ponder the ulitmate fate of humanity as they spin their fidgi and court oblivion.
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