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L1[00:13:29] ⇨ Joins: ECS (ECS!~ECS@94.242.34.251)
L2[00:14:17] ⇦ Quits: ECS (ECS!~ECS@94.242.34.251) (Client Quit)
L3[00:37:18] <Kodos> Fucking chinese hackers god damnit
L4[00:41:03] <Xal> I appreciate chinese ips constantly hammering all my outward-facing ports with default login credentials
L5[00:41:07] <Xal> it makes me feel less lonely
L6[00:42:32] <Kodos> Well I sure appreciate them completely wiping VirtualBox off of my server
L7[00:42:43] <Kodos> Oh, and the logs too apparently
L8[00:42:45] <Izaya> o.O
L9[00:42:47] <Kodos> So I can't even tell what else is missing
L10[00:42:56] <Xal> Kodos: what did you do
L11[00:43:06] <Kodos> I didn't do anything, I'm just an admin
L12[00:43:10] <Kodos> My buddy pays for it to be hosted
L13[00:43:19] <Xal> yeah but what did you fuck up to let someone in
L14[00:43:46] <Kodos> *I* didn't fuck up anything. Another admin on the server hadn't changed his password from the default of `Frogger1$` yet
L15[00:44:06] <Xal> someone fucked up for password ssh login to be enable
L16[00:44:08] <Xal> enabled*
L17[00:44:44] <Kodos> I don't mess with any of that. I just log in to change around the MC stuff we host on it
L18[00:45:12] <Xal> honestly I'd nuke that server because they've proably installed a kernel module or something
L19[00:45:33] <Xal> start over, chuck `ChallengeResponseAuthentication no` in /etc/ssh/sshd_config
L20[00:46:01] <Kodos> Wouldn't that prevent us from logging in through SSH too though?
L21[00:46:16] <Xal> you're not supposed to ssh with passwords
L22[00:46:21] <Xal> you're supposed to use keys
L23[00:47:26] <Kodos> I'll have him check into that. I'm done being damage control at this point anyway. Gonna eat a melatonin and watch Netflix until I pass out
L24[00:48:01] <Xal> Kodos: would highly recommend NOT continuing to use the server after someone's been mucking about with it
L25[00:48:11] <Xal> probably mining monero or something
L26[00:48:33] <Kodos> Well we have full access to it remotely, we just don't have physical access to the hardware
L27[00:49:07] <Xal> either restore from backup or just backup your saves and re-image it
L28[00:50:07] <Xal> once you have passwords disabled for ssh access, you can configure fail2ban to instantly ban anyone attempting to log in with a password
L29[00:50:15] <Xal> I probably have half of china banned
L30[00:50:36] <Kodos> I'll pass all that along to him
L31[00:51:00] <Xal> ah well, the things you learn operating a public-facing server, eh?
L32[00:51:59] <Xal> just look at mine: Status for the jail: sshd: Total banned: 10860
L33[01:17:15] <Forecaster> I use passwords on mine, it's been fine so far :P
L34[01:22:37] <Xal> yeah and I don't wear a seatbelt and it's been fine so far
L35[01:27:41] <Forecaster> :P
L36[01:27:59] <Xal> same line of reasoning
L37[01:28:28] <Forecaster> sure
L38[01:28:39] <Forecaster> different consequences though
L39[01:31:01] <Xal> both cases where a small price can be payed in convenience in order to avoid an unlikely but unfathomably large price in the future; your call I suppose
L40[01:34:00] <Forecaster> indeed it is
L41[01:37:54] <Forecaster> been going for at least 5 years now
L42[01:38:05] <Forecaster> probably about time something happened
L43[01:40:42] ⇦ Quits: ben_mkiv (ben_mkiv!~ben_mkiv@p57972ce0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Remote host closed the connection)
L44[01:55:32] <CntKillMe> well i mean not really same line of reasoning
L45[01:55:51] <CntKillMe> having a password is still **some** form of security, not wearing a seatbelt is **no form** of protection
L46[01:55:56] <CntKillMe> having a password is still **some** form of security, not wearing a seatbelt is **no** form of protection [Edited]
L47[01:56:34] <CntKillMe> and if you have a complicated enough password and just blacklist IPs that use the incorrect password too many times or throttle them or both then you're fine
L48[01:57:26] <CntKillMe> but i mean using keys is obviously better
L49[01:58:43] <Izaya> if you have a password on internet-facing devices use an obnoxiously long and complicated one
L50[02:01:39] <Kodos> I threw a bunch of powder espresso mix into my coffee since I'm out of creamer and didn't figure that out until after I started the coffee :x
L51[02:01:49] <Kodos> It isn't as bad/good as I thought it would be
L52[02:02:52] <Forecaster> mine's not very long
L53[02:03:08] <Forecaster> and I don't know about blacklisting, unless that's default but I don't think it is
L54[02:35:40] <Forecaster> %loot
L55[02:35:40] <MichiBot> Forecaster: You get a loot box! It contains a tiny snail.
L56[02:48:50] <CntKillMe> i have a bad habit of using the same shitty password for sites i don't really care about
L57[02:49:07] <CntKillMe> that'll come to bite me one day
L58[02:49:25] <Forecaster> now I generate unique passwords for everything
L59[02:49:46] <Forecaster> except for a bunch of old accounts that still use very old passwords
L60[02:49:50] <Saphire> Hmmm
L61[02:49:55] <Saphire> ...Do I really need qemu?
L62[02:50:00] <Forecaster> and I don't use them so I haven't updated them
L63[02:50:53] <Izaya> Saphire: depends, do you want to quickly emulate things?
L64[03:15:28] <Saphire> Uh... not really
L65[03:15:38] <Saphire> I mean, it's just a command away if I do need it
L66[03:16:08] * Izaya nods
L67[03:38:55] <Forecaster> https://notalwaysright.com/teaching-her-the-long-way-round/55173/
L68[03:39:13] <CntKillMe> wait what
L69[03:39:17] <CntKillMe> i thought disk drives weren't given an address?
L70[03:39:36] <Forecaster> everything has an address
L71[03:40:02] <CntKillMe> is there a disk drive api?
L72[03:40:31] <Izaya> sure :^)
L73[03:40:34] <Izaya> ~w filesystem
L74[03:40:34] <ocdoc> http://ocd.cil.li/api:filesystem
L75[03:41:11] <CntKillMe> no that's for managed drives
L76[03:41:24] <Izaya> alright
L77[03:41:24] <CntKillMe> i mean for the disk drive object itself
L78[03:41:32] <Izaya> ~w component:drive
L79[03:41:32] <ocdoc> http://ocd.cil.li/component:drive
L80[03:41:34] <Izaya> :^)
L81[03:41:40] <CntKillMe> no no i mean
L82[03:41:42] <CntKillMe> the disk drive itself
L83[03:41:45] <CntKillMe> not a drive
L84[03:41:47] <Izaya> to my knowledge, no, you cannot eject floppies in software
L85[03:41:51] <CntKillMe> dammit
L86[03:41:57] <Izaya> mainly because uh
L87[03:42:00] <Izaya> try to do that in real life
L88[03:42:09] <Izaya> but also because having a component for that one function would be dumb
L89[03:42:13] <CntKillMe> i mean you can eject disks ?
L90[03:42:30] <CntKillMe> well not really, they could have also added "getDrive" which returns the address of the inserted drive if available
L91[03:42:32] <CntKillMe> and things like that
L92[03:42:34] <Izaya> floppies have an entirely mechanical mechanism
L93[03:42:47] <Izaya> no software control at all because that would be another motor
L94[03:42:49] <CntKillMe> yeah i know i was just joking
L95[03:43:00] <Izaya> but anyway
L96[03:43:13] <Izaya> you add an extra component and that means that each floppy drive takes up two components
L97[03:43:13] <CntKillMe> but i mean it's a game, if they did have a disk_drive api it would be nice to have eject and getDrive and stuff
L98[03:43:33] <Izaya> which is bad if you want to connect lots of stuff
L99[03:43:39] <Forecaster> make an addon that adds an auto-ejecting disk drive :P
L100[03:43:53] <CntKillMe> disk_drive_2 ;)
L101[03:44:01] <CntKillMe> nah im not gonna it's not that important to me
L102[03:44:06] <CntKillMe> it'd be kinda cool though
L103[03:44:13] <Izaya> it would be cool but like I said
L104[03:44:15] <Forecaster> %loot
L105[03:44:15] <MichiBot> Forecaster: You get a loot box! It contains a wooden bird.
L106[03:44:21] <Izaya> CPUs can only talk to so many components
L107[03:44:21] <Kodos> %loot
L108[03:44:21] <MichiBot> Kodos: You get a loot box! It contains a Magic 50 metric units! (25%)
L109[03:44:25] <Izaya> otherwise the machine dies
L110[03:44:34] <CntKillMe> i mean, each CPU already gets a disk_drive associated with it
L111[03:45:01] <Izaya> didn't know there was a floppy drive in each CPU
L112[03:45:08] <CntKillMe> i didn't either until now
L113[03:45:11] <CntKillMe> i guess openso filters it out?
L114[03:45:17] <CntKillMe> http://tinyurl.com/y9uzmceq
L115[03:45:26] <CntKillMe> oh wait not sure if you can see that. <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/444757699570302976/450942692298588170/unknown.png&gt;
L116[03:45:41] <Forecaster> images get sent as urls automatically
L117[03:45:44] <Izaya> o.O
L118[03:45:53] <CntKillMe> yeah i didnt know about this either
L119[03:46:12] <CntKillMe> does openos filter it out? I mean it would make sense if so since it's useless without an API
L120[03:46:15] <Izaya> neither did I and I don't even use OpenOS regularly
L121[03:46:24] <CntKillMe> but does it count towards the limit of components a CPU can have?
L122[03:46:46] <CntKillMe> one way to find out
L123[03:46:47] <CntKillMe> brb
L124[03:51:27] <CntKillMe> yup it does count
L125[03:51:47] <CntKillMe> buttt
L126[03:52:10] <CntKillMe> oh
L127[03:52:14] <CntKillMe> that's really annoying
L128[03:52:22] <CntKillMe> both the drive and the disk_drive count as their own
L129[03:52:30] <CntKillMe> so having 4 disk drives with 4 floppies makes 8 components
L130[03:55:40] <Izaya> https://i.4cdn.org/g/1527522380777.jpg
L131[03:56:19] <CntKillMe> am i the only one that's annoyed that component.list's second param defaults to false/nil and not true
L132[03:56:35] <CntKillMe> 99.99% of the time people are typing the entire name of the component type
L133[03:56:57] <CntKillMe> but then when you do "drive" and get "disk_drive" back and you spent 102130410421904921049210492104910492104921049210940214921049 years debugging it only to realize that you forgot how component.list works
L134[03:58:09] <Izaya> impressive
L135[03:58:28] <Izaya> didn't realise you had so much experience
L136[03:58:36] <Forecaster> I have never done that
L137[03:59:09] <CntKillMe> so you always do component.list("eep") and not "eeprom" or whatever?
L138[04:00:09] <CntKillMe> ok i have to turn 8K chars of lua to 4K
L139[04:00:54] <CntKillMe> minification turns it to 4.5K which is not much more than 4096 so that should work after a few changesssssss
L140[04:01:00] <Forecaster> I use addresses to get components
L141[04:01:02] <Forecaster> not names
L142[04:01:30] <Forecaster> or just component.modem or such for some of them
L143[04:01:35] <CntKillMe> im talking about the names of the types
L144[04:01:36] <CntKillMe> like
L145[04:01:47] * Izaya doesn't use indistinct types
L146[04:02:04] <Izaya> filesystem, tape, modem and tunnel don't really get confused
L147[04:02:16] <CntKillMe> nobody does component.list("file") they do component.list("filesystem") and such
L148[04:02:23] <Izaya> no?
L149[04:02:30] <Izaya> so I've never even run into that particular issue
L150[04:02:33] <CntKillMe> i've never seen anyone shorten the type names
L151[04:02:57] <Forecaster> I never use component.list
L152[04:02:58] <CntKillMe> i ran into it because "drive" and "disk_drive" are both matched with component.list("drive") which doesn't really make sense
L153[04:03:19] <CntKillMe> you pretty much have to unless you're in openos or something
L154[04:03:49] <Forecaster> I use OpenOS for everything :P
L155[04:04:29] <CntKillMe> yeah although rn i'm working on a bunch of managed drive stuff and eventually hope to get an entire OS running on a managed drive (which also means i have to design a file system kms)
L156[04:04:55] <CntKillMe> unmanaged*
L157[04:05:00] <CntKillMe> yeah although rn i'm working on a bunch of unmanaged drive stuff and eventually hope to get an entire OS running on a unmanaged drive (which also means i have to design a file system kms) [Edited]
L158[04:05:19] <Kodos> One day I should fire up SecureOS and see what's broken about it
L159[04:06:22] <asie> https://img.asie.pl/JWXd hmm
L160[04:10:20] <Izaya> asie: ???
L161[04:12:17] <Kodos> Jesus fucking christ
L162[04:12:21] <Kodos> Watching the live action FMA movie on Netflix
L163[04:12:28] <Kodos> Just finished up the chimera scene
L164[04:12:39] <Kodos> I would've ripped that dude apart
L165[04:19:16] <Izaya> edward...
L166[04:22:00] <asie> Izaya: "hmm"
L167[04:24:20] <Izaya> what are you hmming at? perhaps that Minitel isn't in your /etc/rc.d/
L168[04:37:06] <CntKillMe> lua minifier im using is somewhat broken D:
L169[04:37:22] <CntKillMe> it turns ("asd"):blah(...) into "asd":blah(...) which is bad synta
L170[04:37:23] <CntKillMe> x
L171[04:37:55] <Forecaster> get Izayas instead maybe
L172[04:46:16] <asie> Izaya: the image
L173[04:48:40] <Izaya> the entire image?
L174[04:50:33] <CntKillMe> so much work finally done <https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1dqhzloaj1h80o/2018-05-29_02-46-40.mp4&gt;
L175[04:50:33] <CntKillMe> this also supports network booting
L176[04:50:51] <CntKillMe> after minification it's like only 30 characters less than the 4096 limit eek
L177[04:54:42] * Izaya nods
L178[04:54:52] <Izaya> My DOS clone sans networking is about 4093 bytes
L179[04:58:26] <CntKillMe> <https://github.com/cntkillme/OC-Drive-Tools/blob/master/bios_standard.lua&gt; without minification it'd be like impossible for me to get than to be less than even 8K i think
L180[04:58:57] <CntKillMe> minified is just at bios.lua
L181[05:01:37] <Izaya> always been a little confused about distributing minified files
L182[05:01:42] <Izaya> does that count as a binary?
L183[05:01:57] <Izaya> if so binaries should be in 'releases'
L184[05:02:07] <Izaya> but a real binary would be lua bytecode
L185[05:02:21] <Izaya> still, minified lua isn't really source code
L186[05:02:24] <Izaya> :|
L187[05:03:38] <CntKillMe> yeah
L188[05:03:51] <Izaya> I end up just packaging the source and minifier
L189[05:04:13] <CntKillMe> speaking of which, can eeprom actually just be bytecode and if so does the "enable bytecode" config option have to be enabled?
L190[05:04:28] <Izaya> I assume so for both
L191[05:04:56] <CntKillMe> since it's disabled by default i'm prob not going to do it
L192[05:05:01] <CntKillMe> trying to get this to be as portable as possibe
L193[05:05:03] <CntKillMe> possible
L194[05:05:08] * Izaya nods
L195[05:51:25] <Izaya> https://i.4cdn.org/g/1527583574261.jpg
L196[07:09:22] <20kdc> prepare for winter
L197[07:20:10] ⇨ Joins: Thutmose (Thutmose!~Patrick@host-69-59-79-181.nctv.com)
L198[07:20:21] <Forecaster> already?!
L199[07:20:32] <Forecaster> %loot
L200[07:20:32] <MichiBot> Forecaster: You get a loot box! It contains a pencil.
L201[07:20:38] <Corded> * <Forecaster> hugs the pencil for warth
L202[07:20:44] <Corded> * <Forecaster> hugs the pencil for warmth_ [Edited]
L203[07:31:54] <Temia> Is... is this loss
L204[07:32:50] <Temia> No, couldn't be. Not in the square arrangement.
L205[07:33:33] <AmandaC> is what loss?
L206[07:37:48] <AmandaC> Also, I remember when Loss came ut, i was following CAD a the time, and was confused about what happen. To be young and nieve again...
L207[07:39:13] <Temia> Izaya's link
L208[07:40:48] <AmandaC> the "for warmth" one?
L209[07:41:03] <AmandaC> I'm not sure how that fits into the loss structure
L210[07:42:02] <AmandaC> ( even if it was square )
L211[07:42:07] <Temia> It mostly would rely on interpreting the java logo as |_
L212[07:43:09] <AmandaC> I see
L213[07:45:09] <MGR> https://notalwaysright.com/should-have-checked-herself/112703/
L214[07:46:33] ⇦ Quits: Thutmose (Thutmose!~Patrick@host-69-59-79-181.nctv.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
L215[07:47:23] <Forecaster> I'm never shopping here again! See you tomorrow!
L216[07:47:35] <MGR> Mhm
L217[07:53:40] <MGR> Me: *cheerfully* “Ma’am, I’m afraid my workplace does not possess the industrial drilling equipment necessary to reach your level.”' --- Quote 1/2
L218[08:18:50] <Alex404> tfw you made your first passable program to make your robot move to specific coordinates and choose his movement based on global orientation and not personal
L219[08:19:05] <Alex404> i'm a total noob thats learnign the ropes in lua an python. feels good
L220[08:19:53] <Alex404> i'm a total noob that is learnign the ropes in lua an python. feels good [Edited]
L221[08:33:00] <AmandaC> Temia: ( Watching E7) They better not be killing off Best Mama
L222[08:33:35] <Temia> I honestly can't remember.
L223[08:33:41] <Forecaster> what?
L224[08:33:58] <Temia> Amanda's watching Eureka Seven
L225[08:34:13] <Forecaster> oh
L226[08:51:39] <Forecaster> https://notalwaysright.com/meet-the-germaniac-family/55099/
L227[08:51:46] <Forecaster> hah
L228[08:58:52] * Saphire pokes Izaya
L229[08:58:55] <Saphire> Question
L230[08:58:58] * Izaya ignites
L231[08:59:23] <Saphire> How problematic is it too recreate BGP and other backbone protocols in OC?
L232[08:59:29] * AmandaC pumps the oxygen out of the channel and replaces it with halon gas
L233[08:59:29] <Saphire> *to
L234[08:59:53] <Izaya> I've never tried, honestly.
L235[09:00:06] * Mimiru always has a rebreather handy
L236[09:00:24] <Izaya> For the typical scale of OC networks I didn't see much purpose to.
L237[09:03:47] <Forecaster> the current google doodle is interesting
L238[09:04:26] <Saphire> Izaya: okay, ignore BGP, what about smaller protocols?
L239[09:06:01] <Izaya> I've never done any proper routing protocols, just made nodes smart enough to know how to route stuff vaguely
L240[09:06:10] <Izaya> Except that time I did a ring network, but that's kinda terrible.
L241[09:11:26] <Skye> I think Izaya has recreated ethernet routing
L242[09:11:34] <Skye> which is good enough for localised networks
L243[09:11:44] <Skye> and good enough for internet exchanges
L244[09:11:49] <Izaya> the dumber your system is the less there is to fail :D
L245[09:11:51] <Skye> (admittedly they run BGP over ethernet routing)
L246[09:12:13] <Skye> (but that means that it's possible to build a proper routing protocol on top of existing routing technology)
L247[09:29:25] <Izaya> AmandaC: you
L248[09:29:27] <Izaya> 're in for a ride
L249[09:29:34] <Izaya> E7 was very enjoyable
L250[09:31:10] <Forecaster> %loot
L251[09:31:10] <MichiBot> Forecaster: You get a loot box! It contains a broken .zip.
L252[09:31:16] <Forecaster> dangit
L253[09:35:12] <Forecaster> https://imgur.com/gallery/tFegg6Z
L254[09:46:32] <Vexatos> @Forecaster as someone knowing Germand from that time period, that is extremely accurate. My great-grandma would never leave without having cleaned the dishes.
L255[09:46:43] <Vexatos> @Forecaster as someone knowing Germans from that time period, that is extremely accurate. My great-grandma would never leave without having cleaned the dishes. [Edited]
L256[09:47:00] <Forecaster> :P
L257[09:47:19] <Vexatos> Also the doodle is pretty nice, although I may be biased
L258[09:47:58] <Forecaster> I can't imagine why
L259[09:48:49] <Vexatos> I mean I am sitting inside a level 2 security airlocked lab right now
L260[09:49:00] <Vexatos> waiting for my microbial poop to dry
L261[09:49:28] <Vexatos> Hello from the insidr o/
L262[09:49:33] <Forecaster> is that anything like watching paint dry?
L263[09:49:34] <Vexatos> Hello from the inside o/ [Edited]
L264[09:49:48] <Forecaster> except more bio-hazard-y?
L265[09:49:58] <Vexatos> I mean I am literally watching water evaporate at 40°C
L266[09:50:03] <Vexatos> soooo
L267[09:51:25] <Vexatos> I have to go through four doors to enter the lab, two of them have a biohazard sign on them. I really like the design of that thing... But it sounds a lot more scary than it actually is.
L268[09:51:50] <AmandaC> Izaya: I'm seriously confused about the structure of the Nirvesh, the way the cockpits seem totally seperate, and yet they can apparently both reach the compac drive?
L269[09:52:00] <Vexatos> *proceeds to die of pneumonia and food poisoning caused by bacteria*
L270[09:52:19] <Izaya> AmandaC: That uh... It's a feature. It gets better later.
L271[09:52:26] <Forecaster> then, mandatory zombie outbreak
L272[09:52:27] <Izaya> Assuming you're not already approacing episode 50, anyway.
L273[09:52:57] <Forecaster> anytime someone dies in a lab, especially high-security, it has to result in an outbreak
L274[09:54:14] <AmandaC> I'm up to 14
L275[09:54:21] <AmandaC> ( Watching it now )
L276[09:56:48] ⇨ Joins: AnimeshnikMS (AnimeshnikMS!~Animeshni@46.39.7.112)
L277[10:02:04] ⇦ Quits: AnimeshnikMS (AnimeshnikMS!~Animeshni@46.39.7.112) (Quit: AnimeshnikMS)
L278[10:02:50] ⇨ Joins: AnimeshnikMS (AnimeshnikMS!~Animeshni@46.39.7.112)
L279[10:05:36] ⇨ Joins: ATMunn (ATMunn!ATMunn@2a07:5741:0:12ee::1)
L280[10:05:48] <ATMunn> o/
L281[10:05:59] <AnimeshnikMS> o/
L282[10:06:52] <ATMunn> so i've just started messing around with opencomputers
L283[10:07:07] <ATMunn> and i tried out the irc thing
L284[10:07:29] <ATMunn> i want to take a look at the code for it, how do I do that?
L285[10:07:36] <AnimeshnikMS> что
L286[10:08:10] <MGR> If you type edit, then the name of the file, you can view the source code
L287[10:08:19] <MGR> You have to stop running the program first though
L288[10:08:32] <ATMunn> but where is the file :P
L289[10:08:40] <AnimeshnikMS> i ra
L290[10:08:50] <ATMunn> it's not in /bin/
L291[10:08:56] <AnimeshnikMS> ops
L292[10:08:58] <ATMunn> unless I'm blind
L293[10:09:29] <MGR> How did you run the program?
L294[10:10:04] <ATMunn> i put in the irc floppy disk, ran 'install irc', then just ran 'irc'
L295[10:10:16] <MGR> Try /usr/bin?
L296[10:10:25] <MGR> I forget where install puts things
L297[10:10:33] <ATMunn> ah yep there it is
L298[10:10:36] <ATMunn> thanks :)
L299[10:10:40] <MGR> You're welcome
L300[10:11:07] ⇨ Joins: Inari (Inari!~Pinkishu@p54AFFF7C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L301[10:11:43] <Forecaster> %loot plz
L302[10:11:43] <MichiBot> Forecaster: You get a loot box! It contains a book that is glued shut.
L303[10:11:48] <Forecaster> D:
L304[10:13:08] <AmandaC> %give MichiBot a hollowed-out bible with a handgun in it
L305[10:13:08] * MichiBot accepts the hollowed-out bible with a handgun in it and adds it to her inventory
L306[10:14:47] <ATMunn> just curious, where is Corded relaying from?
L307[10:14:58] <AmandaC> check the topic
L308[10:15:11] <ATMunn> o
L309[10:15:30] <Forecaster> it's a magical place
L310[10:15:52] * ATMunn hopes opening firefox won't make his computer lag too much by having it and mc open at the same time
L311[10:16:01] <Temia> That's nothing
L312[10:16:02] ⇦ Quits: AnimeshnikMS (AnimeshnikMS!~Animeshni@46.39.7.112) (Ping timeout: 194 seconds)
L313[10:16:16] <Temia> Try running MC at the same time as a virtual machine running Final Fantasy XIV :P
L314[10:16:22] <ATMunn> lol
L315[10:16:36] <Temia> (Yes, I have done this. No, I do not recommend doing it yourself.)
L316[10:16:50] <ATMunn> my computer would be running at like 1 frame a minute if i did that
L317[10:17:03] <Forecaster> faster than play-by-mail
L318[10:17:22] ⇨ Joins: ben_mkiv (ben_mkiv!~ben_mkiv@p4FED585D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L319[10:17:25] <MGR> https://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/31/fedex_delivery.png
L320[10:18:39] <Forecaster> @MGR that's transparent...
L321[10:18:51] <MGR> What?
L322[10:18:53] <Forecaster> oh it's from what-if
L323[10:19:07] <Forecaster> try enlarging it
L324[10:19:29] <MGR> What???
L325[10:19:37] <Forecaster> what?
L326[10:19:50] <MGR> I'm confused as to what the issue is, and what you're trying to get me to do
L327[10:19:56] <Forecaster> nevermind
L328[10:21:02] <MGR> Okay
L329[10:24:08] <ATMunn> aha, I have found the other side of the relay
L330[10:24:21] <MGR> The better side!
L331[10:24:38] <Izaya> Always greener on the other side.
L332[10:24:41] <ATMunn> i disagree
L333[10:24:53] <ATMunn> irc is better imo
L334[10:25:02] <ATMunn> but discord is ok
L335[10:25:13] * Izaya dislikes Discord, but nobody cares anyway
L336[10:25:57] <Inari> I find both nice in their own way
L337[10:26:12] <ATMunn> yeah
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L339[10:27:27] <Inari> You couldcombine the two to be even better
L340[10:27:27] <Inari> :D
L341[10:29:11] <Izaya> one day someone will snap and we'll end up with some horrific chimera with the worst of IRC, Discord and Mumble all in one
L342[10:29:25] <Kodos> You mean something like Trillian?
L343[10:29:29] * Temia nudges Izaya.
L344[10:29:30] <Temia> I care. D:
L345[10:29:44] <Temia> How many times have I gone on a tirade about Discord?
L346[10:30:15] <Izaya> Oh, I meant just my opinion.
L347[10:31:14] <Inari> I like some featurs Discord has
L348[10:31:17] <Inari> And dislike some others
L349[10:31:36] <Izaya> At least it's been defanged a bit thanks to the GDPR.
L350[10:32:05] <Inari> Like i lik the log, the image hosting, better organization (subchannels essentially), embedding, emotes, message eidting/deletion (though I'd still like a plugin that shows me the previous ones :P)
L351[10:32:39] <Inari> I dislike the central authority, un-openness of the client, and some of its layout choices
L352[10:35:15] <Temia> I personally find the organization a problem; the opt-out structure of the subchannels detrimental in many cases since it produces a lot of unwarranted noise from members who do not have a vested interest in the subject, as compared to the opt-in structure of IRC's channels.
L353[10:36:19] <Inari> Subjects just rarely are that uniform really
L354[10:36:49] <Inari> So unless you want ot create an irc channel with a terribly long name for every sub-subject :D
L355[10:36:54] <Inari> Or run your own network
L356[10:37:13] <Izaya> >not running your own network
L357[10:37:51] <Temia> I feel my point did not make it across.
L358[10:38:07] <Izaya> I'm finding that lot of communities that refuse to use Discord channel groups are instead running their own IRC servers. Interesting to see.
L359[10:38:22] <Temia> Regardless, I also find Discord's scalability to be lacking.
L360[10:40:22] <Inari> Izaya: Sure, but thats a pain to do :D
L361[10:40:33] * Izaya shrugs
L362[10:40:50] <Izaya> I mean, admittedly it's a pain to compile your IRC daemon of choice but if you're already hosting a site and such it's not that much more.
L363[10:41:06] <Inari> I don't htink most people are hosting something
L364[10:41:11] <Inari> And then you need to do user support, and bleh
L365[10:42:28] <Izaya> Admittedly most of the 'communities' I'm talking about are imageboards or similar, so eh.
L366[10:42:44] <Izaya> That involves setting up vichan or infinity or whatever, and that isn't in debian's repos.
L367[10:52:42] <Inari> linear aerospikes look so scifi
L368[10:56:02] <Inari> How is everyone's pie today?
L369[10:56:44] <MGR> Pie?
L370[10:56:48] <Izaya> "A long time ago, we used to be friends, but I, haven't thought of you lately at all"
L371[10:56:56] <Inari> Yes
L372[10:57:00] <Izaya> tfw a TV show has a worthwhile opening song
L373[10:57:04] <Inari> My pie is feeling a bit strawberry, a bit rhubarb-ish
L374[10:57:23] <MGR> I guess my pie is good?
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L376[11:44:43] <OmegaRogue> Hows it going everyone
L377[11:45:03] <MGR> Good, how about you?
L378[11:48:38] <Inari> A bit lemon-ish currently
L379[11:53:12] <Izaya> somewhat cold, mildly sardonic
L380[11:53:41] <Forecaster> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/free-love
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L383[12:09:58] <Izaya> https://i.4cdn.org/g/1527611644585.jpg
L384[12:10:34] <MGR> Please remove that from existence
L385[12:13:04] <Izaya> "edward..."
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L397[13:20:53] <Forecaster> hm
L398[13:20:53] <Forecaster> you could feed them random junk and they'd have a chance to grow sometimes
L399[13:20:53] <Forecaster> I wonder if anyone's made a mod that lets you farm slimes
L400[13:20:53] <Forecaster> then you could split them and then have them grow more
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L428[14:08:19] <Forecaster> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wLk2j7_KB0
L429[14:08:19] <MichiBot> The Most Dangerous Rocket Fuels Ever Tested | length: 11m 5s | Likes: 1,149 Dislikes: 2 Views: 11,470 | by Scott Manley | Published On 29/5/2018
L430[14:09:35] <payonel> @CntKillMe and Izaya: what components are you saying openos filters out? i dont filter anything out
L431[14:17:30] <Inari> Forecaster: Absorbed through latex gloves o.o
L432[14:22:09] <Forecaster> yeah
L433[14:22:13] <Forecaster> nasty stuff
L434[14:22:28] <payonel> %log
L435[14:22:30] <payonel> %logs
L436[14:22:30] <MichiBot> payonel: https://oclogs.pc-logix.com/
L437[14:24:31] <Inari> Say I take at in can, an open end and a closed end. I put a nozzle on the open end and explode/burn/whatever something inside of it. Wouldn't there be some force that just exits the nozzle and wouldn't contribute to any movement on the can
L438[14:27:12] <Inari> Like those lines that just exit http://tinyurl.com/y7btqyoy
L439[14:29:16] <payonel> Inari: i think it is logical to say yes. but i think the amount of force not delivered to the container is different with this test depending on the medium, e.g. in a vacuum
L440[14:29:46] <payonel> but you could take a more extreme example, reverse the hole-to-enclosure ratio
L441[14:30:05] <payonel> i think it would illogical to assume the same amount of force would act of the small amount of surface area left
L442[14:30:19] <payonel> + as had acted on the previous container
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L444[14:40:14] <Inari> I'm just trying to determine how exhaust causes thrust really :joy:
L445[14:41:32] <payonel> Inari: ah, i think it has to do with the change in momentum
L446[14:41:46] <Inari> Well, change in momentum is thrust, no?
L447[14:41:56] <payonel> if the nozzle is too large, the average momentum is much smaller
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L449[14:42:03] <Inari> Or I guess chang ein acceleartion is thrust
L450[14:42:03] <Inari> Maybe
L451[14:42:16] <Inari> payonel: But why? And what changes momentum?
L452[14:42:44] <payonel> the fuel at rest, to the explosion and its direction
L453[14:42:57] <payonel> because momentum is mV, that being mass and V, which is directed
L454[14:43:11] <Inari> Right, but the fuel can't influence the momentum of the enclosing container unless it collides with it?
L455[14:43:17] <payonel> so if you have a lot of mass going left and right, the average change is zero
L456[14:44:48] <Inari> Thats what I wonder
L457[14:44:56] <MalkContent> uh..
L458[14:45:01] <Inari> If it explodes, a lot of force just goes to the walls, no?
L459[14:46:02] <MalkContent> to the walls, yea. but if you mean absorbed by the walls then no...
L460[14:46:48] <MalkContent> in the instant of the explosion think of it like a filled waterballoon
L461[14:46:55] <MalkContent> everything is under pressure
L462[14:47:25] <MalkContent> and now where do you think that pressure gets directed when you open up the balloon again
L463[14:47:28] <payonel> malkcontent: she gets that. inari i found it
L464[14:47:29] <Inari> Sure, pressurem akes it leave through the nozzle
L465[14:47:41] <Inari> But how does that cause thrust
L466[14:47:57] <payonel> Inari: the full equation does take a ratio of the nozzle area to engine area
L467[14:48:00] <MalkContent> a) by throwing mass away
L468[14:48:13] <Inari> throwing mass away?
L469[14:48:24] <MalkContent> b) by pushing off the old exhaust
L470[14:48:27] <payonel> ok maybe i misunderstood what Inari was initially asking
L471[14:48:50] <Inari> payonel: Well the intial question was a result of wondering about that :D
L472[14:48:54] <Forecaster> if you're weightless (such as in space) and throw a ball in a direction, you are propelled in the opposite direction by a small amount
L473[14:48:57] <payonel> Inari: i thought you just wanted to know if the mass going out the whole contributed to the total thrust
L474[14:49:04] <MalkContent> well that big old flame isn't weightless
L475[14:49:04] <payonel> yes, some force is lost; i.e. does not contribute
L476[14:49:17] <MalkContent> you throw the exhaust in the opposite direction you want to move in
L477[14:49:20] <Inari> @Forecaster sure, because I move the ball, the ball doesn't move by itself
L478[14:49:22] <MalkContent> at quite some speed
L479[14:49:27] <payonel> but not as much as it might seem at first, because the size of the nozzle also creates a pressurized release
L480[14:50:08] <Forecaster> if there's an explosion between you and the ball, you'll be propelled away from it
L481[14:50:11] <payonel> Inari: F = m dot * Ve + (pe - p0) * Ae
L482[14:50:29] <payonel> where Ae is the area ratio
L483[14:51:08] <Inari> @Forecaster Yes, because part of the explosion hits me and pushes me away
L484[14:51:31] <Inari> @MalkContent But I don't "throw it"? It justs moves due to pressure differences
L485[14:51:40] <Inari> How is it acting upon me then
L486[14:52:13] <Inari> The "old exhaust pushing" makes sense in that context
L487[14:52:14] <MalkContent> lol
L488[14:52:19] <Inari> Is that most of the thrust generated?
L489[14:52:48] <MalkContent> then lets say the pressure difference throws the exhaust away from you
L490[14:52:55] <MalkContent> you don't have to throw it by hand
L491[14:53:02] <Inari> Sure, but why does that affect me?
L492[14:53:09] <MalkContent> no
L493[14:53:13] <MalkContent> unless, like
L494[14:53:20] <MalkContent> you're *in* the rocket
L495[14:53:22] <MalkContent> or something
L496[14:53:34] <Inari> Well, I mean how does it cause thrust on the containing vessel
L497[14:54:11] <MalkContent> \*blinks\*
L498[14:54:15] <MalkContent> well
L499[14:54:57] <MalkContent> we gotta narrow down what you aren't getting here
L500[14:55:00] <payonel> to be honest, it is a good question. the newton way of looking it is because the system (the rocket) is losing mass at a velocity
L501[14:55:01] <Inari> It's basically a pressurised box, and the pressure flows out of it, I don't seem to see how that would cause thrust on the box. Except with your pushing point, but I don't know how much of the generated thrust that is
L502[14:55:30] <payonel> Inari: because for part of your mass to exit stage left, there must be an equal and opposite (direction) force
L503[14:55:38] <payonel> and thus the rest of your mass must exit stage right
L504[14:55:41] <MalkContent> just because the pressure sucks the exhaust out of the rocket
L505[14:55:52] <AmandaC> %choose keep watching or no
L506[14:55:52] <MichiBot> AmandaC: no
L507[14:56:13] <MalkContent> just because the pressuredifference sucks the exhaust out of the rocket [Edited]
L508[14:56:14] <AmandaC> Hrm
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L510[14:56:25] <payonel> xarses: o/
L511[14:56:26] <Inari> @MalkContent hmm I can see how that would generate some thrust, but my intuitoin says it would generate thrust towards the engine, not away from it :D
L512[14:56:55] <payonel> Inari: it generates equal amount of force in each direction
L513[14:57:12] <payonel> technically, both the exhaust and the engine experience the same thrust
L514[14:57:19] <MalkContent> doesn't mean that the interaction between the rocket and the exhaust plays out any different
L515[14:57:22] <Inari> payonel: Yeah, I just don't see how ap ressure difference causes that exaclty
L516[14:57:49] <Inari> And how much which effects conitrbute to the thrust, or negate it
L517[14:58:24] <Inari> Like if you think of it as the exhaust being sucked out, you'd expect the nozzle to cause exhaust to bunch up on the inner part of the nozzle, pushing against that as it tried to be sucked out
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L519[14:58:33] <Inari> Which would negate some thrsut
L520[14:58:41] <payonel> Inari: to balance the pressure, some mass moves left. you can't move some mass left without moving some mass right. all of the "connected" elements of the body are pushed back. the particles that are under pressure, the walls, everything in the solid body
L521[14:59:19] <payonel> Inari: the bad shape of the nozzle will slow the exit, yes
L522[14:59:24] <payonel> and that'll reduce the thrust
L523[14:59:32] <payonel> because the V is important, not just m
L524[15:00:58] <Inari> Hmm I suppose I can kind of see it. Pressure means particles densely packed, and they "try" to move to a less pressurized state. So they would push in all directions kind of. If oyu had a closed container it wouldn't move becuase it pushes equally in all direction, but a nozzle on one end reduces the push on that side
L525[15:01:03] <Inari> Cuasing the push on the opposite side to win
L526[15:01:29] <payonel> right, but it is only when the main body mass reduces that there is thrust
L527[15:01:40] <payonel> if m == 0, then no thrust
L528[15:01:44] <payonel> delta-m, that is
L529[15:02:09] <MalkContent> think of the pressure not as sucking particles out of the rocket
L530[15:02:10] <Inari> Yeah, thats because if nothing exits (no nozzle) you have a push in all direction of the same force, cancelling each other out
L531[15:02:12] <payonel> Inari: and you asked about walls. again, EVERYTHING in the system is pushed, not just the walls
L532[15:02:16] <MalkContent> but pushing particles out of the rocket
L533[15:02:47] <MalkContent> the particle flow is directed narrowly
L534[15:02:52] <payonel> Inari: i point that out because when you think about how much inertia the force will cause, you calculate the rocket mass + the remaining fuel mass
L535[15:03:03] <MalkContent> meaning their mass is moving in one direction
L536[15:03:24] <MalkContent> causing an opposite and equal reaction of the rocket's mass
L537[15:03:31] <payonel> MalkContent: yes, which you get when your normalize V. there will be an average vector of velocity
L538[15:03:41] <Inari> payonel: Yeah, I'm imaginging a lot of particles with that explanation
L539[15:03:51] <payonel> Inari: yep
L540[15:05:21] <Inari> @MalkContent I just don't see how pushing itself would cause thrust :D Except if I take my explanation
L541[15:05:47] <Forecaster> sigh
L542[15:05:54] <payonel> Inari: anyways, this is why we can reduce the complexity of the problem down to 2 basic variables: what is the mass of fuel that is reduced, and what velocity is it escaping
L543[15:05:59] <payonel> from that, we know the thrust
L544[15:06:09] <MalkContent> sec
L545[15:06:35] <Inari> My explanation ebing. Closed container http://tinyurl.com/y8j7kp4g
L546[15:06:50] <Inari> Pressure pushes on all sides evenly, cancelling out any possible momentum gain
L547[15:07:00] <payonel> Inari: right, mass remains the same, thus NO thrust
L548[15:08:50] <Inari> http://tinyurl.com/ybxagx4q
L549[15:08:55] <Inari> Box with "nozzle"
L550[15:10:44] <Inari> At least my picture would hold up to thrust vectoring
L551[15:14:11] <MalkContent> do you know the slit experiment for light?
L552[15:14:40] <MalkContent> if that's the correct name
L553[15:15:16] <MalkContent> either way
L554[15:15:23] <MalkContent> imagine the rocket is closed
L555[15:15:44] <MalkContent> and just a sweet little can o' pressure
L556[15:16:06] <Inari> vectoring http://tinyurl.com/y6wkaqmf
L557[15:16:09] <MalkContent> now you open a tiny hole at the end of the can for a splitsecond
L558[15:16:18] <Inari> Yeah I know the double-slit experiemnt
L559[15:16:19] <Inari> IF you mean that
L560[15:16:52] <MalkContent> you can now think of that as a tiny explosion behind a closed can
L561[15:16:58] <payonel> Inari: [sorry, i was afk [working]] the really neat part, to me, about seeing this reduced variables of this problem, is that i realized (when i learned this) that that's why you can't accellerate a rocket in space without losing mass. it's an intersting way to look at it
L562[15:16:59] <MalkContent> that expands in all directions
L563[15:17:50] <Inari> @MalkContent why would you be able to?
L564[15:18:11] <MalkContent> able to do what?
L565[15:18:20] <Inari> To set those two things to be equal
L566[15:18:40] <MalkContent> (what?)
L567[15:18:50] <Forecaster> your last image is wrong
L568[15:18:57] <MalkContent> the explosion can and the rocket?
L569[15:19:38] <MalkContent> the rocket is just doing those mini explosions at a much faster speed
L570[15:19:39] <Inari> Like if I have an explosion behind the can, of course it'll push on the can http://tinyurl.com/ybnbluw3
L571[15:19:59] <MalkContent> that explosion should be directly behind the can :P
L572[15:20:06] <Forecaster> there wouldn't be a small arrow in the bottom of the nozzle, or it would at least be negligible, or there wouldn't be any vectoring
L573[15:20:06] <MalkContent> not at that distance
L574[15:20:33] <Inari> @Forecaster yeah, was unsure about that. Was thining the vectoring comes from the top side having al arger surface area though
L575[15:20:37] <Inari> Thus more pressure pushing on it
L576[15:21:11] <Forecaster> if that's the thinking you're not representing it correctly in your diagram either way
L577[15:21:12] <Inari> Then again that icture is wrong netirely
L578[15:21:23] <Inari> Cause vectoring doesn't move where the hole is in the box xD
L579[15:22:18] <Inari> Hmm I suppose the arrows upa nd down on the nozzle can both go away. It's still offset by having more v push on the top side than the bottom
L580[15:22:23] <MalkContent> it directs the flow though
L581[15:22:39] <Corded> * <Forecaster> sighs again
L582[15:22:41] <Inari> @MalkContent well any explosion next to an object will shove that object away
L583[15:22:54] <MalkContent> as long as you arrived at that point at least
L584[15:22:57] <Inari> Why are you sighing so much? :D
L585[15:23:16] <payonel> i think all the blinking and sighing is slightly unkind :|
L586[15:23:28] <Forecaster> blinking?
L587[15:23:30] <Inari> @MalkContent but yeah, only a small percentage of that explosion actually adds momentum
L588[15:23:36] <MalkContent> i blinked once
L589[15:23:37] <Inari> Because most of it just goes off into space
L590[15:23:53] <MalkContent> roughly 50% is a good percentage
L591[15:24:07] <Inari> That was my thought with my original question
L592[15:24:11] <Forecaster> you know you could probably just, find a video that explains how a rocket works or something
L593[15:24:13] <payonel> Inari: all of it adds momentum because
L594[15:24:18] <Forecaster> or how thrust works
L595[15:24:38] <payonel> Inari: when you lose, or move, any mass, you are pushed back
L596[15:24:56] <MalkContent> ^
L597[15:24:57] <payonel> the amount of push depends on the speed, and the direction depends on the vector the mass exits/leaves/moves away
L598[15:25:09] <Inari> If you explode it inside the can most of it goes to the walls, some to the opposite of hte nozzle, and some out of the nozzle. So it feels like a very small part of the explosion force contributes to thrust. Of course you brouhgt up pressure that has built and wants out too, which adds more thrust instead of just the intiital thing and reduces the losses from the walls
L599[15:26:00] <payonel> Inari: yeah, but the mass that leaves the hole? how did it get its velocity? from mass that added to the pressure
L600[15:26:09] <Inari> @Forecaster well if they all explain it on too high a level one will never understand it :D
L601[15:26:11] <MalkContent> the walls don't absorb the explosion...
L602[15:26:14] <payonel> that's why i'm saying all the mass is part of the thrust
L603[15:26:15] <MalkContent> the keep the pressure
L604[15:26:30] <Inari> Thats what I just said, yes
L605[15:26:37] <MalkContent> they keep the pressure [Edited]
L606[15:27:07] <Inari> In my initial thinking I was just thinking about the explosion wave and how it would distribute and cause pushing on the can. In that view most of the push would be lost on the walls.
L607[15:27:16] <Inari> But as you noted theres pressure building up by the walls enclosing it
L608[15:27:24] <Inari> Thus not that much (or perhaps none) is lost
L609[15:27:35] <MalkContent> i mean at that point it works like a gun
L610[15:27:42] <MalkContent> without a projectile
L611[15:27:59] <MalkContent> if you imagine a single explosion instead of a continuous one
L612[15:28:18] <Inari> Yeah
L613[15:28:31] <payonel> right, none is lost. i think it is better to think of a volume of mass that is changing pressure, rather than a few balls moving out in a circle
L614[15:28:32] <Inari> But a gun would still need to be explained too, so it works for both
L615[15:29:01] <payonel> it's the same rule for both examples. but rockets work like the prior
L616[15:29:16] <Inari> Not sure what you mean with volume of mass changing pressure
L617[15:29:35] <payonel> i was just trying to paint a mental image of an enormous number of tiny balls
L618[15:29:41] <MalkContent> step 1) have a lot of a pressurized medium. step 2) show vector to equalize pressure. step 3) medium moves in the vector direction to equalize pressure
L619[15:29:44] <payonel> rather than just a few we would draw in a simple sketch
L620[15:30:41] <payonel> i has a meeting
L621[15:30:41] <payonel> o/
L622[15:30:46] <MalkContent> o/
L623[15:31:27] <Inari> payonel: Well yes, can't draw that many of course though ^^
L624[15:32:53] <Inari> @MalkContent not really following step 2) :D
L625[15:34:02] <MalkContent> the barrel of the gun
L626[15:34:16] <Inari> Ah
L627[15:34:27] <Inari> Sure, but that explains it like a school textbook does
L628[15:34:28] <MalkContent> maybe the gun thing makes this easier, because the whole vector thing is more pronounced
L629[15:35:19] <Inari> So, to satisfy Fore, lets see if we can find a nice video or other material on this
L630[15:35:42] <MalkContent> you explode a thing in the back of the barrel, the pressure equalization can only go in 2 opposite directions for the longest time (until the medium finally spills out of the end of the barrel)
L631[15:38:09] <MalkContent> but, y'know, by the time the end of the barrel is reached, the majority of the pressure is gone
L632[15:38:45] <MalkContent> and half of that majority translates into kinetic energy to the barrel
L633[15:45:40] <Inari> Yeah, I feel like I've arrived at a good enough understanding of it :p Being able to both know why it works and being able to mentaly picture it, or intuitively feel it
L634[15:47:54] <Inari> Next up
L635[15:48:19] <Inari> How do levers work :D
L636[15:49:31] <Forecaster> Redstone
L637[15:49:39] <Inari> Haha
L638[15:51:42] <Inari> But yeah, thats a thing I never understood :3
L639[15:51:45] <MalkContent> if you bring down levers to a pressure problem, so help me
L640[15:51:57] <Inari> Hm?
L641[15:52:29] <Inari> Though I still have to look more into rockets
L642[15:52:34] <Inari> To see the thrust composition
L643[15:53:09] <Inari> Like how much is contributed by pressure? How much by the mere explosion itself? How is negated by counter-pressure on the nozzle, etc
L644[15:55:53] <Forecaster> the guy who makes Fortresscraft is insane
L645[15:56:08] <Forecaster> he has 10 hour development streams where he just works on FC
L646[15:57:11] <MalkContent> counter pressure negates nothing
L647[15:57:37] <MalkContent> if it can even be called that
L648[15:58:12] <MalkContent> and the explosion is the pressure
L649[15:59:11] ⇦ Quits: MajGenRelativity (MajGenRelativity!~MajGenRel@c-73-123-203-209.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
L650[16:25:39] ⇨ Joins: Thutmose (Thutmose!~Patrick@host-69-59-79-181.nctv.com)
L651[16:32:38] <Inari> "Negates nothing"?
L652[16:32:46] <Inari> But why not
L653[16:34:44] <Inari> It should push the vessel into the oppsite directiony ou want to go
L654[16:41:50] <MalkContent> it just contains the pressure
L655[16:46:10] <Inari> Yeah, but contained pressure doesn't produce thrust as it doesn't move out
L656[16:47:35] <payonel> Inari: let's change this away from an explosion idea for a sec
L657[16:47:53] <payonel> imagine a capsule that has life suppport. full of breathable air
L658[16:48:03] <payonel> and pressurized :)
L659[16:48:21] <payonel> it's floating, still in space. you cut a hole, and it starts to accelerate away
L660[16:49:21] <payonel> before the hooe, all of the particles are pushing against each other, super hard. even the walls are pushing back. pressure. but just think of in 1 dimension. left and right
L661[16:49:26] <Vexatos> >discussion about physics
L662[16:49:28] <Vexatos> >I miss it
L663[16:49:34] <Vexatos> is there anything left for me :I
L664[16:49:37] <payonel> every left push is responded to by an equal right push
L665[16:49:48] <Inari> payonel: Thats what I said, yes
L666[16:49:53] <Inari> But Malk seems to disagree
L667[16:50:01] <payonel> Inari: but when you cut that hole, you get left pushes with no right push to zero it out
L668[16:50:22] <payonel> Inari: in what regard do they disagree?
L669[16:50:22] <Vexatos> ew Newtonian physics
L670[16:50:28] <Vexatos> that's too old-school
L671[16:50:59] <Inari> Well the nozzle takes some of those left pushes still, not all left pushes leave the capsule
L672[16:51:11] <Inari> (or the rest of the wall, in your "hole" case)
L673[16:51:15] <payonel> Inari: correct, but ALL of the particles leaving were left pushed
L674[16:51:18] <Inari> Thus someo f hte possible thrust is negated
L675[16:51:46] <Inari> Vexatos: Explain levers/ :D
L676[16:51:49] <payonel> Inari: sure. there is velocity of mass in the system that never leaves the system. but you should consider all of that as just part of the original mass
L677[16:52:07] <AmandaC> Temia, Izaya: I like the old tea dude and his magic transdimensional rug
L678[16:52:29] <Inari> payonel: Well to me it makes more sense to consider those pushes, since they explain why a closed capsule doesn't move
L679[16:52:29] <payonel> Inari: if some mass never leaves, its "sum" of velocity is zero
L680[16:52:52] <payonel> Inari: i think that's fine. it is fine to see the micro level of the physics
L681[16:53:01] <Vexatos> Inari, τ₁*v₁=τ₂*v₂ D:
L682[16:53:02] <payonel> but as long as you remember those are zeros in the big picture
L683[16:53:02] <Inari> Why is everyone so focused on mass leaving though
L684[16:53:08] <Inari> Vexatos: But, why
L685[16:53:22] <Vexatos> because glhf destroying energy in this universe
L686[16:53:35] <Inari> How does energy relate
L687[16:53:39] <payonel> Inari: because everything else that we're talking about doesn't matter or zero's out. only the mass that leaves at velocity V creates thrust
L688[16:53:57] <Vexatos> τ₁*v₁=P=dE/ds
L689[16:54:02] <Xal> space travel isn't real because there's nothing to push against in space
L690[16:54:07] <Inari> Vexatos: Thats for levers?
L691[16:54:27] <Inari> payonel: Sure, but it doesn't create thrust by just being mass that leaves
L692[16:54:39] <payonel> Inari: by the definition of thrust, it does
L693[16:54:49] <Inari> Then thats a silly definition :D
L694[16:54:56] <payonel> haha, perhaps
L695[16:55:06] <Inari> It would mean if I had a capsule with holes on both sides, and mass flies through, it gets accelrated
L696[16:55:08] <Vexatos> Inari, well for levers just replace v with x
L697[16:55:12] <Inari> Because after entering the capsule it leaves it
L698[16:55:12] <payonel> Inari: without changing your mass, you cannot accelerate
L699[16:55:22] <Xal> Inari: the velocity is negative on the other side, causing zero net impulse
L700[16:55:29] <payonel> Inari: ah fair, but, BUT
L701[16:55:37] <payonel> well wait
L702[16:55:43] <Inari> Vexatos: But thats just some formula
L703[16:55:50] <payonel> Inari: is there a lot of other mass in the capsule? did it collide with anything?
L704[16:56:02] <payonel> Inari: the formula are for "closed" systems
L705[16:56:09] <Vexatos> Inari, when you pull a lever you apply torque
L706[16:56:16] <Vexatos> torque is directly proportional to energy
L707[16:56:23] <Vexatos> the energy needs to go somewhere
L708[16:56:42] <Vexatos> like, you know
L709[16:56:45] <Vexatos> the other side of the lever
L710[16:56:52] <Vexatos> now you have torque and distance
L711[16:56:55] <Vexatos> distance is fixed though
L712[16:57:02] <Vexatos> (distance to the fulcrum)
L713[16:57:06] <Vexatos> so what has to change is the torque
L714[16:57:12] <Vexatos> meaning you get more torque over shorter distance
L715[16:57:34] <Vexatos> and less torque (but more radian) over longer distances
L716[16:57:41] <Inari> I suppose - seems like a backwards explanation though
L717[16:57:56] <Vexatos> It's based on the fact that energy needs to go somewhere
L718[16:58:17] <Inari> Like, the universe sits down and goes "Oh, there torque here, and I can't change the distance, so I have to change the torque"?
L719[16:58:24] <Xal> yes
L720[16:58:26] <Xal> that's what it does
L721[16:58:28] <Vexatos> yup
L722[16:58:30] <Inari> But it doesn't
L723[16:58:33] <Vexatos> it does
L724[16:58:43] <payonel> Inari: in your capsule with two holes, what was in the capsule? a vacumm?
L725[16:58:46] <Inari> Maybe in some abstract interepretion of it
L726[16:58:48] <payonel> uu*
L727[16:58:55] <Inari> payonel: Probably :P
L728[16:59:03] <payonel> Inari: then it never added to the mass of the capsule
L729[16:59:11] <payonel> when i talk about mass leaving i mean, a body losing mass
L730[16:59:13] <Vexatos> There are countless ways to prove that energy is constant because literally any sort of energy transmission shows that
L731[16:59:25] <Vexatos> a lever is just one of them
L732[16:59:30] <Vexatos> it converts torque to torque
L733[16:59:35] <Inari> Sure, I'm not asking of a proof of anything, just an explanation that makes sense
L734[16:59:41] <Vexatos> just with a different multiplier
L735[16:59:44] <Xal> geometry makes it be like it do
L736[16:59:50] <payonel> Inari: a system with pressure can be described as a single body of mass
L737[17:00:10] <payonel> i have another meeting
L738[17:00:14] <Inari> payonel: Yeah, yeah. I just mean "mass leaves" seems abstract
L739[17:00:17] * payonel scampers
L740[17:00:26] <Vexatos> Inari, when you are at the short end of the lever, you apply a certain torque over a certain radian, right
L741[17:00:49] <Vexatos> like if you pull it down a distance x with y torque
L742[17:00:59] <Xal> vexatos please stop you're gonna make me have nightmares of polar integrals
L743[17:01:07] <Inari> Well, yeah
L744[17:01:09] <Vexatos> now the other side of the stick has to move up
L745[17:01:15] <Vexatos> because it's a rigid stick
L746[17:01:25] <Vexatos> otherwise it'd snap above the fulcrum, right?=
L747[17:01:53] <Vexatos> now, how far it can move up is determined by the distances of both sides to the fulcrum, and some simple circle geometry, so that is fixed
L748[17:02:07] <Vexatos> so the only variable on the other side is that side's torque
L749[17:02:23] <Vexatos> so the more torque you apply over here, the more torque the other side has to get
L750[17:02:31] <Inari> Hmm
L751[17:02:41] <Vexatos> if the other side is longer than yours
L752[17:02:48] <Vexatos> than the distance the other end moves is bigger
L753[17:02:54] <Inari> How torque over a fulcrum even work
L754[17:02:55] <Vexatos> meaning the torque is lower than on your side
L755[17:02:57] <Vexatos> and vice-versa
L756[17:02:58] <Inari> **How does
L757[17:03:08] <Vexatos> Pulling a lever is part of a circular motion
L758[17:03:13] <Vexatos> the fulcrum is the centre
L759[17:03:14] <Xal> think of it in terms of torques: τ=r×F
L760[17:03:15] <Inari> Yeah, but
L761[17:03:18] <Xal> you can't make torque from nothing
L762[17:03:20] <Inari> Why does it become circular
L763[17:03:21] <Vexatos> the distance to it is the radius
L764[17:03:29] <Vexatos> because the stick has constant length
L765[17:03:36] <Inari> If theres no fulcturm you're literally just pulling the stick down
L766[17:03:48] <Vexatos> if you move a stick around a fix point (the fulcrum)
L767[17:03:54] <Vexatos> it _has_ to move in a circular fashion
L768[17:03:57] <Xal> there's always a fulcrum because it will swing around the center of mass
L769[17:04:00] <Vexatos> hence the existence of the word "aROUND"
L770[17:04:11] <Vexatos> Inari, yes you are
L771[17:04:12] <Inari> You do that by pulling on one side. And the connected atoms follow the ones you pull, I think?
L772[17:04:14] <Vexatos> and if there is no fulcrum
L773[17:04:16] <Vexatos> there is no lever
L774[17:04:37] <Vexatos> the very definition of a lever is a stick on a fulcrum
L775[17:04:54] <Vexatos> you cannot construct a lever without anchor point
L776[17:05:08] <Vexatos> ask archimedes about that
L777[17:05:11] <Inari> Yeah, I'm just trying to see how the fulcrum influences the behaviour of the propagation of the applied push
L778[17:05:17] <Xal> all force that isn't directly on a thing's center of mass will create a torque based on the lever arm from the point where the force is applied to the center of mass
L779[17:05:30] <Vexatos> Inari, the stick is trying to move down
L780[17:05:34] <Vexatos> but it gets stuck on the fulcrum
L781[17:05:44] <Vexatos> so it either stops moving
L782[17:05:45] <Vexatos> so it has to change orientation
L783[17:05:50] <Vexatos> or it has to change orientation*
L784[17:06:07] <Inari> Hrmm, hard to make a mental picture of
L785[17:06:52] <Xal> Inari: any time you push a thing, the component parallel to the center of mass goes into linear force, and the component perpendicular to it becomes torque
L786[17:07:26] <Inari> Xal: Yeah, I'm wondering why :D Like trying to picture the atoms and how they'd move
L787[17:07:34] <MalkContent> don't
L788[17:07:41] <Xal> atom's aren't real so you don't have to worry about that
L789[17:07:53] <Vexatos> Inari, apply constant force on a stick above a fulcrum and you only get two options https://files.catbox.moe/2ecrh2.png
L790[17:08:00] <Vexatos> either it snaps or it changes orientation
L791[17:08:15] <Inari> Vexatos: I get that, I just don't see the low-level picture yet
L792[17:08:16] <MalkContent> just accept that the lever is a rigid object
L793[17:08:22] <Vexatos> Inari, there is nothing low level
L794[17:08:24] <Xal> Inari: there is no point to try to "visualize atoms" because they, too, are an abstraction
L795[17:08:27] <Vexatos> this is ancient greek physics
L796[17:08:31] <Vexatos> not quantum mechanics
L797[17:08:34] <Inari> @MalkContent thats nice and all, but it doesn't explain to me how it works, nor gives me any sort of understanding :P
L798[17:08:37] <MalkContent> how matter stays together is a whole different thing
L799[17:08:49] <Xal> Vexatos: please explain to me a lever in terms of M-theory
L800[17:08:54] <Inari> Xal: Sure, but one that seems closer to what happens than abstract phrses or formulas
L801[17:09:00] <MalkContent> you are asking about addition and then go "but what are numbers even"
L802[17:09:10] <Vexatos> Xal, so you know how one of the assumtions for quantum mechanics is that energy is constant
L803[17:09:16] <Vexatos> *ahem*
L804[17:09:16] <Xal> Inari: atoms are as abstract as anything else
L805[17:09:24] <Inari> Yes, knowing what numbers are is kind of important if you want to understand what addition does
L806[17:09:33] <Vexatos> Inari, which level do you want it explained at then
L807[17:09:50] <Inari> Vexatos: Duno, currently thinking of atoms
L808[17:09:54] <Vexatos> pls
L809[17:10:00] <Vexatos> a stick is a rigit item
L810[17:10:05] <Xal> atoms are not a useful level of abstraction to think about this at
L811[17:10:07] <MalkContent> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM
L812[17:10:07] <MichiBot> Feynman: Magnets FUN TO IMAGINE 4 | length: 7m 33s | Likes: 16,277 Dislikes: 271 Views: 1,450,014 | by Christopher Sykes | Published On 28/12/2008
L813[17:10:11] <Vexatos> if it's a metal rod it's held together by metal bonds
L814[17:10:15] <Inari> Yes, but how does rigid mean it rotates
L815[17:10:17] <MalkContent> watch that, inari
L816[17:10:19] <Vexatos> if it's made of wood it's mostly cellulose
L817[17:10:24] <Vexatos> Inari, it means it cannot change shape
L818[17:10:36] <Vexatos> so the only things that can change are its position in space, and its rotation
L819[17:10:41] <Xal> could I have this explained in terms of wave equations
L820[17:10:54] <Inari> Xal: And sure, everything is an abstraction or something. Some abstractions just feel more intuitive and/or better understandable
L821[17:11:02] <Vexatos> so either you translate it
L822[17:11:04] <Vexatos> or you rotate it
L823[17:11:10] <Vexatos> since you cannot bend it
L824[17:11:27] <Xal> which is why you must pick the correct level at which to reason about something (the video Malk posted of feynman goes into detail on this)
L825[17:11:27] <Vexatos> now, assuming you only want to apply downwards force
L826[17:11:40] <Vexatos> as soon as the rod hits the fulcrum there is no way to translate it down any further
L827[17:11:42] <Inari> Yeah, I just have trouble imagining the points moving, being blocked by the fulcrum and thus moving upward from it
L828[17:11:50] <Vexatos> it doesn't move upwards
L829[17:11:57] <Vexatos> the point of contact doesn't change
L830[17:12:05] <Inari> the point move upward
L831[17:12:08] <Vexatos> no
L832[17:12:08] <Inari> *points
L833[17:12:15] <Inari> one sside goes down
L834[17:12:16] <Inari> the other up
L835[17:12:17] <Vexatos> yes
L836[17:12:23] <Inari> So the point past the fulcrum move up
L837[17:12:24] <Vexatos> because you stopped translating it downwards
L838[17:12:27] <Vexatos> and started rotating it
L839[17:12:42] <Vexatos> because you cannot translate it downwards any further
L840[17:12:47] <Vexatos> as it hit another object
L841[17:12:50] <Inari> Yes and I'm trying to imagine how the translation turns into a rotation
L842[17:13:05] <Vexatos> vector maths?
L843[17:13:13] <Inari> points in space :D
L844[17:14:00] <Vexatos> you are not converting translation into rotation
L845[17:14:15] <Vexatos> you are just converting the force of you pushing downwards into something else
L846[17:14:28] <Vexatos> first you convert it into translation by moving the rod onto the fulcrum
L847[17:14:36] <Vexatos> once that happens
L848[17:14:41] <Vexatos> you cannot do it any more
L849[17:14:46] <Vexatos> but you are still applying force
L850[17:14:51] <Vexatos> where does all that force go=
L851[17:14:59] <Vexatos> energy can't just vanish
L852[17:15:05] <Vexatos> so what happens to the energy you provide
L853[17:15:11] <Inari> Sure, as said, I'm just trying to imagine how that would look as points
L854[17:15:18] <Vexatos> as points?
L855[17:15:22] <Vexatos> that doesn't make sense
L856[17:15:30] <Vexatos> what do you mean
L857[17:15:43] <Vexatos> a lever is not points
L858[17:15:54] <Vexatos> a lever is a line and a point
L859[17:15:57] <Inari> It is a collection of points we call atoms
L860[17:16:05] <Inari> at least the line is
L861[17:16:05] <Vexatos> which are bound
L862[17:16:26] <Inari> Yes
L863[17:16:31] <Vexatos> so moving them down on one side pulls all connected atoms down with it
L864[17:16:41] <Inari> Exactly
L865[17:16:43] <Vexatos> but at the point of the fulcrum, they cannot move down
L866[17:16:52] <Inari> Yes
L867[17:16:56] <Vexatos> so nothing happens
L868[17:16:59] <Vexatos> meaning nothing moves
L869[17:16:59] <Vexatos> at all
L870[17:17:02] <Inari> I just fail to see how they move up beyond that
L871[17:17:07] <Vexatos> the lever does not work
L872[17:17:11] <Vexatos> if you only apply downwards force
L873[17:17:41] <Inari> This would be much easier with animations xD
L874[17:17:45] <Vexatos> that's why you need to start applying rotational force instead, i.e. move the stick in a circle rather than a straight line
L875[17:18:12] <Xal> atoms aren't reaaaal
L876[17:18:13] <Inari> But with rotational force I still jut push down on one end?
L877[17:18:17] <Inari> Like I would have otherwise too
L878[17:18:17] <Vexatos> you cannot operate a lever by only applying force in a straight line
L879[17:18:20] <Inari> Xal: Nothing is real
L880[17:18:20] <Vexatos> no
L881[17:18:24] <Vexatos> you do not push down
L882[17:18:33] <Vexatos> you push along a circle
L883[17:18:35] <Inari> Hmm
L884[17:19:45] <Vexatos> https://files.catbox.moe/fcm5aa.png
L885[17:19:53] <Vexatos> just pushing straight down won't do anything at all
L886[17:20:03] <Inari> Sure, still seems odd that one side moves up
L887[17:20:03] <Vexatos> you must apply rotational force
L888[17:20:07] <Vexatos> which happens to be called torque
L889[17:20:21] <Vexatos> so you move one side clockwise
L890[17:20:29] <Vexatos> obviously, the entire stick must move along
L891[17:20:34] <Vexatos> so the entire stick moves clockwise
L892[17:20:37] <Inari> And yeah, I guess to move down I'd have to like, hold it on topa nd bottom and push down, to rotate I only push on the top (when its on the fulcrum)
L893[17:20:48] <Inari> If I tried to hold topa nd bottom I just couldn't move it further
L894[17:21:01] <Vexatos> and if the entire stick moves clockwise
L895[17:21:07] <Vexatos> obviously a part of it will be above the fulcrum
L896[17:21:17] <Inari> It's so odd that the movement seems to change direction though xD
L897[17:21:23] <Vexatos> it doesn't though
L898[17:21:32] <Vexatos> you literally changed the type of force you apply
L899[17:21:38] <Inari> But they move down on one side and up on the other
L900[17:21:44] <Vexatos> they move clockwise
L901[17:21:58] <Vexatos> there is no up or down
L902[17:22:31] <Vexatos> you are not applying downwards force anymore, there is no concept of down anymore
L903[17:22:37] <Vexatos> you are applying clockwise force
L904[17:22:46] <Vexatos> so there is only clockwise motion instead of down motion
L905[17:23:13] <Vexatos> you literally changed the type of force you apply it has absolutely nothing to do with just moving it downwards
L906[17:23:16] <Vexatos> so it doesn't "change"
L907[17:23:34] <Vexatos> it only changes onsofar you change the very parameter
L908[17:23:43] <Inari> torque is weird
L909[17:23:57] <Vexatos> torque is just force applied in a circular motion
L910[17:24:08] <Vexatos> instead of a straight one
L911[17:24:20] <Inari> Sure, but theres always a point where it looks like it turns from one direction to another
L912[17:24:52] <Vexatos> because you change the way you give it energy?
L913[17:25:02] <Inari> No, I mean, in torque itself
L914[17:25:07] <Vexatos> you are changing everything about the input, why should the output not change
L915[17:25:15] <MalkContent> i didn't read most of this, but is this about "does a lever turn around the fulcrum"?
L916[17:25:33] <Inari> Like if you have a stick, no fulcrum
L917[17:25:40] <Inari> And you view it from the side
L918[17:25:44] <Inari> And rotate it
L919[17:25:50] <Inari> Some "point" will move down and some up
L920[17:26:08] <MalkContent> that's very vague
L921[17:26:26] <MalkContent> what point
L922[17:27:04] <MalkContent> you mean like for example the end points of the stick?
L923[17:27:06] <Vexatos> Inari, what do you mean by "up"
L924[17:27:16] <Vexatos> there are no x and y coordinates in circular motion, you know
L925[17:27:24] <Vexatos> you use polar coordinates r and φ instead
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L927[17:27:38] <kingofxbox99> hello
L928[17:27:39] <Vexatos> your view simply does not apply anymore
L929[17:27:42] <MalkContent> let's stick with up and down
L930[17:28:11] <Vexatos> Inari, if you want animations, google it
L931[17:28:17] <Vexatos> I thought you asked because you were too lazy for that
L932[17:28:25] <Vexatos> there are millions of examples
L933[17:28:36] <Inari> Vexatos: If you'd travel along the stick at the cetner point the force would seem to approach 0, then revert
L934[17:28:41] <Inari> Vexatos: I meant animations to explain what I mean :P
L935[17:28:57] <Vexatos> Inari, the force does not revert
L936[17:28:57] <MalkContent> no
L937[17:29:01] <Vexatos> as i said
L938[17:29:07] <Vexatos> the force you apply is constant in this example
L939[17:29:10] <Vexatos> it always has the same value
L940[17:29:19] <Vexatos> and no matter which part of the lever you are looking at
L941[17:29:21] <MalkContent> the force would increase when traveling towards the center
L942[17:29:35] <Vexatos> yes
L943[17:29:43] <Vexatos> which is why we talk about torque
L944[17:29:46] <Vexatos> instead of force
L945[17:30:26] <Vexatos> with a lever, you have constant torque everywhere and you can use the right-hand rule to determine which direction the stick will turn :P
L946[17:30:45] <Inari> http://tinyurl.com/y9sfl3pu
L947[17:31:22] <Inari> Thats a stick, say I'm standing on the part on the left side. Would I not feel ike the lever is pulled away?
L948[17:31:29] <Inari> And hten on the irght side feel as if it pushes against me
L949[17:31:55] <Vexatos> you would just feel like being moved counter-clockwise
L950[17:32:51] <MalkContent> there's no simple answer
L951[17:32:54] <Inari> Yes, but theres still a reversion of appareny direction of force
L952[17:32:57] <Vexatos> Inari, did you notice that your image is symmetrical, right
L953[17:33:03] <Vexatos> you can invert it at the point of the fulcrum
L954[17:33:18] <Inari> And those red circle, they'd move less and less as you approach the center, (they move down in this view) and as you cross it they start moving up
L955[17:33:26] <Vexatos> Inari, let's imagine you sit on the right side and look towards the fulcrum
L956[17:33:26] <Inari> Sure
L957[17:33:32] <Vexatos> you will feel like you're being pulled right
L958[17:33:38] <Vexatos> let's imagine you sit on the left side and look towards the fulcrum
L959[17:33:39] <Vexatos> you will feel like you're being pulled right
L960[17:33:40] <MalkContent> because we don't know what shape you are, even if you are frictionless
L961[17:33:46] <Vexatos> you are always being pulled right
L962[17:33:57] <Vexatos> that's normal circular motion
L963[17:34:00] <MalkContent> and i'm pretty sure you imagined yourself getting pushed by an actual rotating piece of wood
L964[17:34:12] <MalkContent> which makes the whole thing so much more complex
L965[17:34:29] <Inari> MalkContent: It's just a helpful thing, don't have to try to incorporate me :P
L966[17:34:40] <Vexatos> Inari, also, the red circles move less, but with more force
L967[17:34:44] <Vexatos> the closer they get
L968[17:34:55] <Vexatos> the torque is constant though
L969[17:35:01] <Inari> Yeah
L970[17:35:07] <MalkContent> well then what is supposed to be pushed there, if it's not you
L971[17:35:11] <Inari> Still, rotation is weird
L972[17:35:13] <MalkContent> and is it frictionless
L973[17:35:15] <Vexatos> it isn't though
L974[17:35:20] <Inari> It is though
L975[17:35:23] <Vexatos> No?
L976[17:35:31] <Vexatos> I literally just explained it to you in like four different ways
L977[17:35:37] <MalkContent> because if it is frictionless, it'll mostly get pushed outside
L978[17:35:54] <Inari> Yeah, but I can't imagine how the points move exactly yet :p
L979[17:36:04] <Vexatos> they move along a circle
L980[17:36:07] <Vexatos> because they have to
L981[17:36:23] <Inari> Yes, but imagining the propagation fo the movement with that
L982[17:36:26] <Vexatos> a circle is the shape you get when you draw all points a fixed distance away from a fixed pojnt
L983[17:36:33] <MalkContent> i recommend you get a lot more abstract and very exhaustingly define your question
L984[17:36:43] <MalkContent> if you want to have exhausting answers
L985[17:36:46] <Vexatos> i.e. all possible points a single one of those dots could be at
L986[17:37:04] <Vexatos> @MalkContent exhausting or exhaustive
L987[17:37:15] <Vexatos> :^)
L988[17:37:35] <MalkContent> ?
L989[17:37:41] <Inari> Well i'll probably have to think more about this anyway :P And probably not at like 30 minutes past midnight
L990[17:37:45] <MalkContent> exhaustive answers?
L991[17:38:34] <Vexatos> my answers so far have sure been exhausting
L992[17:38:45] <MalkContent> did you at least watch the video, inari? :P
L993[17:38:46] <Vexatos> Inari, or, like
L994[17:38:52] <Vexatos> you do any kind of physics in school
L995[17:38:55] <Vexatos> that might help :I
L996[17:39:02] <Inari> Can't do 10 things at once :P
L997[17:39:13] <Inari> Vexatos: School physisc sucks
L998[17:39:19] <Inari> This moves, use this formula to calculate that
L999[17:39:22] <Inari> \o/
L1000[17:39:32] <Inari> Actual things learned: 0
L1001[17:39:45] <Vexatos> not if you actually listen :I
L1002[17:39:54] <Inari> But thats the lesson
L1003[17:39:59] <Vexatos> How do you think I learnt this ._.
L1004[17:40:04] <Inari> Some guy made a law someday
L1005[17:40:06] <Inari> Heres the formula
L1006[17:40:06] <Vexatos> I didn't read a book on this stuff :I
L1007[17:40:14] <Inari> Why does the law wrok? Well who knows, you don't have to know that for the test
L1008[17:40:27] <MalkContent> some guy discovered a formula that describes the law
L1009[17:40:33] <Vexatos> Inari, your question boiled down to "I don't understand basic geometry"
L1010[17:40:33] <MalkContent> that's the way that goes
L1011[17:40:38] <Vexatos> so you really need to rethink your question
L1012[17:40:41] <MalkContent> ^
L1013[17:40:50] <Inari> I do understand geometry though :D
L1014[17:40:57] <Vexatos> you don't
L1015[17:40:59] <Vexatos> circular motion is not even physics
L1016[17:41:01] <Vexatos> it's 0% physics
L1017[17:41:05] <Vexatos> it's a purely mathematical thing
L1018[17:41:09] <Vexatos> a 100% geometrical thing
L1019[17:41:14] <Inari> I suppose
L1020[17:41:20] <Inari> I doubt any person ever thinks much on that xD
L1021[17:41:46] <Inari> Plus it's not like i can try and imagine or semi-animate much while also trying to respond on IRC :D
L1022[17:42:26] <Vexatos> you need to learn multitasking, too :I
L1023[17:42:30] <MalkContent> here's a winky answer
L1024[17:42:36] <MalkContent> a cd spins
L1025[17:42:52] <Inari> Vexatos: Can only do so much at once
L1026[17:42:53] <MalkContent> it holds a certain amount of kinetic energy
L1027[17:42:54] <Inari> %actualshrug
L1028[17:42:54] <MichiBot> Inari: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
L1029[17:43:13] <MalkContent> it is much faster on the edge than near the middle
L1030[17:43:17] <Inari> If I ahve to try to imagine something thats difficult for me to imagine, I need to focus on that :P
L1031[17:43:58] <MalkContent> if you have a brake that slows the cd down
L1032[17:44:40] <MalkContent> by a certain speed per second (aka negative acceleration)
L1033[17:45:36] <Inari> I guess I'll have to calculate the 2d movement of those points (like if you put them in a coordinate system) and see what kind of vector you actaull apply with a circular motion push
L1034[17:45:45] <Inari> And maybe make a stick where the point follow the push slowly
L1035[17:45:46] <MalkContent> and apply it on the edge
L1036[17:45:49] <MalkContent> until it stops
L1037[17:45:53] <Vexatos> Inari, literally basic geometry: a point moves around a circle. Circle has radius r and the current position of the point is described by its angle a relative to some arbitrary 0 on the circle. Then x = r·cos a and y = r·sin a. Nothing in this universe can change this, that is why your y sometimes goes negative (implying "upwards" motion)
L1038[17:45:57] <MalkContent> aka removed all the kinetic energy
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L1041[17:46:24] <Inari> Vexatos: Sure, but its weird to actually imagine as the movement of things and makes sense of
L1042[17:46:41] <Vexatos> why
L1043[17:46:51] <Vexatos> literally try to move a point relative to another point
L1044[17:46:57] <Inari> Just is
L1045[17:46:58] <Vexatos> but you cannot change the position of the second point
L1046[17:47:03] <Vexatos> and you cannot change the distance between the two
L1047[17:47:10] <Vexatos> you will immediately get a circle
L1048[17:47:17] <MalkContent> i just realized i brought friction into this, i won't continue :x
L1049[17:47:44] <Inari> You push one atoms with a certain force in a certain direction, it in turn tugs ona nother atom and so on, and somehow those tugs get more violent but smaller in amount of travel,a nd then they stop, and then they change direction
L1050[17:47:56] <Vexatos> no they don't
L1051[17:48:06] <Vexatos> the tugging is transversal
L1052[17:48:09] <Vexatos> not longitudinal
L1053[17:48:23] <MalkContent> not on the atom level
L1054[17:48:36] <Vexatos> on the atom level it is eventually
L1055[17:48:49] <Vexatos> atoms are not in a straight line
L1056[17:49:05] <Inari> Well transversal is a term I haven't heard yet ^^
L1057[17:49:09] <Vexatos> the models used to describe this motion take weeks to complete on beefy computers
L1058[17:49:10] <MalkContent> the atom level shall be fucking untouched
L1059[17:49:13] <Vexatos> et's not do that
L1060[17:49:14] <Vexatos> thanks
L1061[17:49:38] <MalkContent> that is unintuitive fuckery that none of us have any good understanding of
L1062[17:49:51] <MalkContent> stop trying to understand that when you can't math it
L1063[17:49:57] <Inari> Eh, it seems the most intuitive
L1064[17:50:03] <MalkContent> you're wrong
L1065[17:50:11] <Vexatos> Inari, longitudinal vs transversal https://files.catbox.moe/1vj1cq.png
L1066[17:50:26] <Inari> Your drawings are odd :P
L1067[17:50:30] <Inari> I found this though http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/waves/u10l1c5.gif
L1068[17:50:47] <Inari> And sure
L1069[17:50:49] <Vexatos> It's 1 a.m., 25°C and I am drawing with a mouse to explain 6-grade physics
L1070[17:50:52] <Inari> But thats still the atoms tugging
L1071[17:51:23] <Inari> I never though of it as longitudinal :D
L1072[17:51:25] <MalkContent> how about you get an understanding of levers in the scope of rigid bodies before you go any deeper
L1073[17:52:29] <Inari> That doesn't let me understand levers. Plus I do understand them on the scoep of rigid bodies
L1074[17:52:52] <Vexatos> Inari, so you apply this motion to your line of points https://files.catbox.moe/z1viml.png
L1075[17:52:56] <Vexatos> and that's what happens, right?
L1076[17:53:06] <Vexatos> the motion cannot move any further since the atom on the fulcrum cannot move down
L1077[17:53:19] <MalkContent> a welp. then don't
L1078[17:53:20] <Vexatos> as you can see
L1079[17:53:21] <Inari> Pretty much, thats what I had in my mind
L1080[17:53:25] <Vexatos> the thing is completely bent
L1081[17:53:38] <Vexatos> atomic bonds can be imagined as springs
L1082[17:53:49] <ben_mkiv> as far as we can tell from our perception and tools we created on that
L1083[17:53:58] <Vexatos> so the bending of bonds itself creates a force
L1084[17:54:04] <Vexatos> the bonds will try to get back to their original angles
L1085[17:54:06] <Inari> ben_mkiv: That applies to everything
L1086[17:54:10] <Vexatos> but since the left side is held down
L1087[17:54:10] <ben_mkiv> true
L1088[17:54:17] <Vexatos> how would the angle go back to 180°
L1089[17:54:51] <Vexatos> ben_mkiv, please, I probably know this stuff better than most people here :I
L1090[17:55:04] <Vexatos> If there's one thing I learnt it's god damn molecular models
L1091[17:55:08] <Inari> Vexatos: See, that helps me out in trying to imagine why the points change direciton :D I kind of had that bottom picture in mind as an animation. But I coulldn't reason why it would suddenly make the points move up
L1092[17:55:33] <Vexatos> Inari, just keep in mind this doesn't actually happen
L1093[17:55:38] <Vexatos> there is never any actual bending occuring
L1094[17:55:42] <Vexatos> it's all instant
L1095[17:55:44] <Vexatos> well
L1096[17:55:45] <ben_mkiv> didnt want do doubt that vex
L1097[17:55:54] <Vexatos> for the most part
L1098[17:55:56] <Inari> There should be some bending though
L1099[17:55:57] <Inari> On like
L1100[17:55:59] <ben_mkiv> but still the people who know everything known, dont know everything yet
L1101[17:56:02] <Inari> a veeeeeeeeeery small scale?
L1102[17:56:12] <ben_mkiv> probably
L1103[17:56:14] <Vexatos> Inari, degrees so small they fall under the atoms' natural vibration
L1104[17:56:29] <Inari> Hmm I guess that makes sense
L1105[17:56:35] <Vexatos> (vibration of atoms is called temperature on a larger scale, by the way)
L1106[17:56:36] <Inari> Damn timestep of the universe is too quick
L1107[17:56:47] <Inari> Thats actually interesting by the way
L1108[17:57:04] <Inari> Becaue it means heat is kinetic energy :P But I still hear stuff like "Kinetic energy turned into heat energy"
L1109[17:57:16] <Vexatos> All atoms want to be in a state of minimal energy
L1110[17:57:22] <Vexatos> so they align in optimal angles, lengths, etc
L1111[17:57:33] <ben_mkiv> cant you tear down everything to energy or EMC... :P
L1112[17:57:35] <Vexatos> changing those just causes them to go back on their own
L1113[17:57:45] <Vexatos> But that's quantum mechanics
L1114[17:57:55] <Inari> ben_mkiv: Is everything mass though?
L1115[17:57:57] <Vexatos> ben_mkiv, THAT is relativity
L1116[17:58:16] <Vexatos> fun fact
L1117[17:58:19] <ben_mkiv> depends on the understanding of mass
L1118[17:58:24] <Vexatos> theory of relativity and quantum mechanics contradict one another
L1119[17:58:25] <ben_mkiv> but probably yes, everything is somehow
L1120[17:58:31] <ben_mkiv> even space is some kind of mass
L1121[17:58:56] <Vexatos> energy is a property of matter
L1122[17:59:08] <Vexatos> photons have no mass though
L1123[17:59:28] <Vexatos> there you go
L1124[17:59:35] <ben_mkiv> but aint light faster in vacuum?
L1125[17:59:36] <Vexatos> theories are incompatible
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L1127[17:59:39] <ben_mkiv> because they dont have any resistance
L1128[17:59:43] <Vexatos> that's not how it works
L1129[17:59:44] <ben_mkiv> so they have to be some kind of mass
L1130[17:59:48] <Vexatos> light has light speed
L1131[17:59:58] <Vexatos> it can't move slower than that
L1132[18:00:00] <ben_mkiv> light would be infinite fast without mass
L1133[18:00:07] <ben_mkiv> well, thats what i read
L1134[18:01:33] <Vexatos> Inari, can I go sleep now ._.
L1135[18:01:44] <Inari> I thought I ahd read something about slowing light down
L1136[18:01:47] <Vexatos> if I can at all
L1137[18:01:53] <Inari> Vexatos: Yeah, thanks for the explanation :p
L1138[18:02:27] <Inari> "When light propagates through a material, it travels slower than the vacuum speed, c. "
L1139[18:02:28] <Vexatos> way too hot and humid :I
L1140[18:02:29] <Inari> apparently
L1141[18:02:56] <Inari> Vexatos: I know, I hate summer nights for sleeping
L1142[18:02:56] <Inari> :D
L1143[18:03:01] <Vexatos> it's may
L1144[18:03:08] <Inari> I mean
L1145[18:03:12] <Inari> it was like 30 * C today
L1146[18:03:16] <Inari> So its summer as far as I care
L1147[18:03:22] <ben_mkiv> "? If light is like a classical
L1148[18:03:22] <ben_mkiv> wave, its speed should depend upon the elasticity and inertia of the medium it travels through. If
L1149[18:03:22] <ben_mkiv> inertia of space. However how can empty space have properties?"
L1150[18:03:22] <ben_mkiv> light travels through the medium of empty space, its speed should depend upon the elasticity and
L1151[18:03:23] <ben_mkiv> ...
L1152[18:03:26] <Vexatos> don't mind me
L1153[18:03:34] <Vexatos> having to wear socks, thick shoes, and long jeans
L1154[18:03:38] <Vexatos> and a lab coat, of course
L1155[18:03:40] <Inari> having to?
L1156[18:03:43] <Vexatos> all day
L1157[18:03:46] <Inari> Oh
L1158[18:03:49] <Inari> I thought you meant for sleeping
L1159[18:03:50] <Inari> :P
L1160[18:03:54] <Vexatos> between 0800 and 1800
L1161[18:04:08] <Inari> Dont' yu have AC or something in whatever lab you work in
L1162[18:04:11] <Vexatos> sure
L1163[18:04:16] <Vexatos> but then it's lunch time
L1164[18:04:28] <Vexatos> and the AC also isn't doing that well anyway
L1165[18:04:35] * Inari imagines Vexatos as a member of hte Future Gadgets Lab
L1166[18:04:36] <Vexatos> it sure as heck doesn't get rid of the humidity
L1167[18:04:54] <Vexatos> I drank like 4.5 litres of water and juice today
L1168[18:04:55] <ben_mkiv> rather umbrella corp
L1169[18:05:07] <Inari> ANyway
L1170[18:05:10] <Inari> I shall head to bed
L1171[18:05:30] <Inari> Sleep well you cutie muffinpies
L1172[18:05:41] <ben_mkiv> same
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L1178[20:58:49] <kingofxbox99> hello!
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L1180[21:17:07] <Taffle> Can the nanomachines give the fire resistance effect?
L1181[21:41:44] <Wrothmonk> They can give any potion effect iirc.
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L1198[23:32:48] <Mimiru> .
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