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L1[00:02:18] <FLORANA> @Mimiru yah iknow, i just find it funny XD
L2[00:02:39] <FLORANA> sorry about long reply, i litteraly just now saw it :3
L3[00:03:07] <Mimiru> I have no idea of the context, but ok.
L4[00:03:20] <Mimiru> Oh
L5[00:03:22] <Mimiru> wait... yes I do
L6[00:03:24] <Mimiru> meh
L7[00:03:40] <FLORANA> XD
L8[00:18:02] <Xal> payonel: I'm not a lua expert. If I want to ValuePack::ret a userdata, does that need to be a shared_ptr?
L9[00:19:21] <Xal> ah nevermind I need to use newuserdata
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L14[01:49:59] zsh sets mode: +v on asie
L15[01:57:01] <Forecaster> so...
L16[01:57:30] <Forecaster> the latest xkcd is something that should be experienced http://tinyurl.com/ycg5x43r
L17[02:01:24] <Forecaster> http://tinyurl.com/yahxamrd
L18[02:29:37] <payonel> Xal: correct, i don't have a return for userdata, create puts it on the stack
L19[02:29:46] <payonel> you can review filesystem.cpp
L20[02:31:24] <payonel> i create new userdata in FileHandle* Filesystem::create(lua_State* lua, const string& filepath, fstream::openmode mode)
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L30[05:45:05] <Vexatos> @Forecaster http://tinyurl.com/yclhfcrr
L31[05:47:24] <Vexatos> @Forecaster Going to /dev/random opens a random xkcd :U
L32[05:50:12] ⇨ Joins: Inari (Inari!~Pinkishu@p5DEC659D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L33[06:13:29] <Inari> I hath tells
L34[06:13:39] <Inari> AmandaC: Category A?
L35[06:52:21] ⇦ Quits: Backslash (Backslash!~Backslash@ip-94-114-162-224.unity-media.net) (Quit: Leaving)
L36[07:06:15] <the-nick-dev> https://i.like-man.ga/DaHOyL.png\
L37[07:06:16] <the-nick-dev> https://i.like-man.ga/DaHOyL.png [Edited]
L38[07:06:20] <the-nick-dev> https://i.like-man.ga/DaHOyL.png
L39[07:18:09] <Kodos> wat
L40[07:38:35] <Inari> I hate the sour smell of coal when people grill
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L42[07:49:36] <S3> Inari: so
L43[07:49:46] <Inari> So?
L44[07:49:57] <S3> my frind just got a house and in the basement there's this room you open up
L45[07:50:05] <S3> and there's coal coke for a coal stove (not charcoal)
L46[07:50:12] <S3> like, probably a few thousand pounds of it
L47[07:50:20] <S3> I might offer to buy it for my home forge
L48[07:50:24] <S3> some of it
L49[07:50:32] <ben_mkiv> any suggestions on how to store stuff for hologram projectors?
L50[07:50:39] <Inari> Heh
L51[07:52:47] <Izaya> as a 2-bit bitmap, I guess
L52[07:52:55] <Izaya> there's only 4 colours, right?
L53[07:53:05] <ben_mkiv> yea
L54[07:55:00] <ben_mkiv> takes up around 100kb ram for a 3D matrix in lua
L55[07:55:11] <ben_mkiv> for 16x16x32 pixels
L56[07:58:01] <S3> that's extremely inefficient
L57[07:58:06] <S3> why so much?
L58[07:58:19] <ben_mkiv> weired table workarounds
L59[07:58:44] <ben_mkiv> anyways i want to convert that to fill() instructions, so it will probably end up with less data
L60[07:59:37] <S3> it's an 8K structure, that's a lot of serious overhead
L61[08:05:33] <Forecaster> ...I did dev random and got xkcd #1975...
L62[08:05:35] <Forecaster> :|
L63[08:06:41] <Izaya> ben_mkiv: could also use strings
L64[08:10:35] <ben_mkiv> actually writing some parser for the holoedit script of moonlightowl
L65[08:10:45] <ben_mkiv> which converts the file to fill() instructions
L66[08:10:53] <ben_mkiv> which should be the fastest way to render
L67[08:11:39] <ben_mkiv> so i also dont have to mess with 3D fake tables
L68[08:12:46] <Vexatos> >moonlightowl
L69[08:12:53] <Vexatos> Took me a second to realize who that was >-<
L70[08:16:15] <Forecaster> yay I have a microwave oven now!
L71[08:16:31] <Forecaster> now I can microwave my computer components to upgrade them finally
L72[08:16:38] <Inari> How can you live wihtout a microwave
L73[08:17:33] <Vexatos> a single microwave doesn't do much
L74[08:17:46] <S3> I have just discovered http://csgofuckyourself.com
L75[08:17:57] <S3> which redirects to the CS:Go subreddit
L76[08:19:31] <Forecaster> Vexatos: but two microwaves would excite them too much
L77[08:47:54] <Forecaster> I would restart MichiBot now but it will probably die if I do that
L78[08:48:20] <Mimiru> even if you did the build hasn't finished.
L79[08:48:31] <Mimiru> *NOW* it's finished.
L80[08:48:33] <Mimiru> :P
L81[08:48:40] <Inari> What'd you add?
L82[08:48:54] <Forecaster> I would have waited until it finished :P
L83[08:49:43] <Forecaster> who told you I added something?!
L84[08:51:05] <Inari> I meane
L85[08:51:11] <Inari> Thats what a build/restart is for,usually
L86[08:51:14] <Inari> %source
L87[08:51:14] <MichiBot> Inari: https://github.com/PC-Logix/LanteaBot/
L88[08:51:25] <Inari> I see
L89[08:51:30] <Forecaster> it *could* just be a bugfix :P
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L91[08:51:37] <Inari> Still an addition
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L93[08:51:52] zsh sets mode: +v on MichiBot
L94[08:52:00] <Forecaster> a bugfix is not an "add" in my opinion
L95[08:53:15] <Forecaster> %curse
L96[08:53:15] <MichiBot> Forecaster: Sard1!11
L97[08:55:12] <Forecaster> I also did this
L98[08:55:17] <Forecaster> %yoda ^
L99[08:55:17] <MichiBot> did I also this
L100[09:13:17] <Izaya> payonel: even with clean gcc6 on a VM, it still falls over, so the compiler must be wonky
L101[09:13:39] <Izaya> payonel: I'll see if I get the same result on 32-bit debian, because I remember that not working properly either for some reason
L102[09:16:49] <ben_mkiv> debugging my chess stuff....
L103[09:16:55] <ben_mkiv> whack a mole is going to be my next game xD
L104[09:18:10] <ben_mkiv> anyways.. http://pasteall.org/pic/1e22e21c2f151c6b3ebb4e9d28a7b02d and http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=3a4fd280bf69a336f729a4fa993922bb
L105[09:18:23] <ben_mkiv> getting closer :P
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L108[09:36:46] <Ristelle> I'll have to try and optimise this: https://paste.ee/p/lALuw
L109[09:37:10] <Ristelle> I actually could drop 1x1 pixels
L110[09:37:29] <ben_mkiv> whats it?
L111[09:37:34] <ben_mkiv> also some 3D matrix?
L112[09:41:45] <Ristelle> 2d matrix
L113[09:43:21] <Ristelle> #000000 -> Hex colour
L114[09:43:21] <Ristelle> [8,20,6,4] -> [bottom left X, Bottom left Y,height, width
L115[10:12:23] ⇨ Joins: SolaoBajiuik (SolaoBajiuik!~quassel@75.97.233.152.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
L116[10:14:50] <coderboy14> I opened up my local game to the WAN. Don't know if it'll work, but if anyone wants to try and join... I'm **trying** to make a smart city, but I'm not the greatest at OC. lol. I'm trying to work on a secure router, to transmit data to my "satellite" (likely via linked card, because I don't think the wireless cards can reach that far). I have ~50 mods on my client, which I compressed and uploaded
L117[10:14:50] <coderboy14> [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jjm7zjtq_NN2aJNgVk6HxAQvpWMgIiu6/view?usp=sharing] and my IP is 174.55.68.105
L118[10:15:08] <coderboy14> Oh. It's on port 49202
L119[10:18:21] <coderboy14> And MC 1.12.2
L120[10:40:31] <coderboy14> How would I get the # of digits in a number? I need to have my RES change to accommodate larger numbers or the clock.
L121[10:41:43] <Inari> https://twitter.com/abandonedplace_/status/980829846577311745
L122[10:41:43] <MichiBot> Mon Apr 02 10:30:33 CDT 2018 @abandonedplace_: Uyuni, Bolivia https://t.co/9v0zbgsm12
L123[10:49:19] <coderboy14> Found out how, using a for loop and some weird math
L124[10:49:26] <coderboy14> * while loop
L125[10:52:35] <Izaya> tostring(n):len()
L126[10:53:12] <S3> heh.
L127[10:53:29] <S3> so here in Maine there's this place where you follow this road and it goes under the lake like that
L128[10:53:39] <S3> and the reason is because there's an entire town under the lake
L129[10:54:03] <Izaya> sounds creepy
L130[10:55:22] <S3> a bunch of lawyers came, gave out a shitton of money dug up their graves and moved them to another place then said GTFO
L131[10:55:35] <S3> and then they built a dam and flooded the entire town which took like.. 25 years
L132[10:55:52] <S3> a lot of people just stayed until they pretty much needed a boat to get back to shore
L133[10:56:06] <S3> or nearly anyways
L134[10:56:21] <Mimiru> Flagstaff?
L135[11:01:28] <Arcan> S3: wtf, was it contaminated or something?
L136[11:02:27] <Mimiru> If it's Flagstaff they flooded it, for a dam, for power gen
L137[11:03:47] <Wuerfel_21> That sounds shady
L138[11:26:09] <Mimiru> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=70&v=wGOUuXFucEg
L139[11:26:09] <MichiBot> STOP GPU ABUSE! #GPURESCUE | length: 1m 11s | Likes: 6,587 Dislikes: 333 Views: 171,608 | by CORSAIR | Published On 30/3/2018
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L141[11:32:51] <Forecaster> stackoverflow has a rubber duck
L142[11:33:14] <Izaya> why has nobody started swatting miners?
L143[11:46:22] <SgtPropain> S3 is talking about flagstaff yeah, I live 2hrs south of it. CMP is the one who flooded it back in the 50's
L144[11:56:09] <Forecaster> https://www.geeksaresexy.net/2018/04/02/tentacuddle-blanket-a-blanket-for-lover-of-all-things-tentacled/
L145[11:57:56] <Inari> Meh
L146[11:58:31] <payonel> Inari: i shared the raw pointer link with work
L147[11:58:40] <payonel> it got people talking about it too much
L148[11:58:55] <Inari> Haha
L149[11:58:57] <payonel> now i'm all irritated about it again
L150[11:59:01] <payonel> :|
L151[11:59:12] <Inari> You C++ programmers are a special bunch :P
L152[11:59:14] <Inari> %pet payonel
L153[11:59:14] * MichiBot pets payonel with The Button™. payonel recovers 1 health!
L154[12:00:10] <payonel> Inari: definitely :)
L155[12:00:19] <payonel> some languages are clubs, some are religions, some are cults
L156[12:00:23] <payonel> c++ is a religion
L157[12:01:08] <coderboy14> I don't know if this was answered, but I didn't see one. How do I write files in a managed disk? I'm creating a TLS library for my server frame ( over 200 servers ), and I can't let them access the screen, so I'm creating programs like FTP. I need security for them. My problem for TLS right now, is writing files, because I need to store the server's TLS private key, public key, CA key, and their TTC cert. Can somebody tell me how to take a
L158[12:01:08] <coderboy14> serialised object ((or)string) and write it to a file?
L159[12:01:47] <payonel> @coderboy14: a managed disk (the default mode for a disk) is posted on your machine as a "filesystem" component
L160[12:02:11] <payonel> the filesystem component api allows you to list() and open(), etc
L161[12:03:08] <S3> C++ is the place my cats go to take a dump
L162[12:03:22] <S3> How could you call that a religion
L163[12:03:46] <coderboy14> Yah. I tried understanding that, but the WiKi said to use the IO lib. however I don't really understand the IO lib, especially how to write. I found out how to read, but........
L164[12:03:55] <S3> Where people worship the great ruler Toxoplasma Gondii?
L165[12:04:49] <AmandaC> `local f = io.open("/path/to/some/file", "w") f:write("DATA HERE") f:close()`
L166[12:05:05] <coderboy14> Thanks @AmandaC
L167[12:05:34] <AmandaC> Reading Programming in Lua may be helpful
L168[12:05:35] <payonel> codeboy14: note that the io library is added by openos
L169[12:05:41] <AmandaC> %pil
L170[12:05:41] <S3> coderboy14 you still trying to write to a file?!
L171[12:05:41] <MichiBot> AmandaC: https://www.lua.org/pil/contents.html#P1
L172[12:05:44] <S3> I told you last night lol
L173[12:06:09] <AmandaC> S3: the @ is nessary to ping people across the bridge
L174[12:06:19] <S3> He responded
L175[12:06:44] <S3> Maybe I didn't want to ping
L176[12:07:23] <payonel> S3: tone it down
L177[12:08:24] <coderboy14> Oh. I didn't see your response @s3. I fell asleep, and today I looked in that area, but I didn't see anything, but still...
L178[12:09:03] <coderboy14> @AmandaC I know Lua, just not this particular flavour. Most of the Lua I know is for Roblox, and a lot of it applies over, but there's still a crap ton I need to learn.
L179[12:09:05] <S3> @coderboy14 you replied to it ! lol
L180[12:09:12] <S3> but no big deal :D
L181[12:09:27] <S3> Anyways yeah
L182[12:09:30] <payonel> @coderboy14 the io library is standard lua
L183[12:09:32] <S3> Really read all of the io lib
L184[12:10:15] <coderboy14> @S3 the only thing I saw me reply to was explaining the difference managed and unmanaged. That's good, because I'm also trying to work on an OS, so I can run main-frames on my sat. system.
L185[12:11:05] <S3> @coderboy14: That's cool. My OS will not care if its storage is on managed or unmanaged devices.
L186[12:11:13] <S3> Thanks to the VFS
L187[12:11:26] <coderboy14> And yes, I know what main-frames really are and I mean that. The server's jobs will be using linked cards, to take the data in, process it, redirect it to an Output Relay Server, the ORS will then relay the data to a data-farm on the ground. VFS?
L188[12:11:50] <SAL9000> VFS = Virtual File System
L189[12:11:53] <S3> VFS is the core of any unixy like system
L190[12:11:55] <coderboy14> Ah....
L191[12:12:16] <S3> The idea of Unis is that everything is a file
L192[12:12:22] <S3> so the VFS is important there
L193[12:12:24] <SAL9000> s/nis/NIX/
L194[12:12:24] <MichiBot> <S3> The idea of UNIX is that everything is a file
L195[12:12:42] * payonel is a file
L196[12:12:53] <SAL9000> that sounds more like Plan9 though tbh :-P
L197[12:12:59] <S3> SAL9000: woops missed the x
L198[12:12:59] <S3> :D
L199[12:13:21] <SAL9000> well yeah, I fixed that for you
L200[12:14:40] <S3> @coderboy14: The entire basis of such as system only requires 6 primary functions to create any combination of other functions. Those functions are open, close, read, write, fork, and exec
L201[12:15:14] <coderboy14> Yah. That's defiantly noice. lol. "High ho, high-ho, it's off to work we go". I need to finish my TLS library, so that I can create my two routers, regular router, and Secure Satellite Relay router (SSR router). Then after that, I need to create the mainframe software to run on my servers in the satellite, then I need to create the FTP/RSM (Remote System Management), then create the banking server, and have the ATM/Econ system run through tha
L202[12:15:15] <coderboy14> lol. So much work to make an entire city. Cool. I guess that makes it easy.
L203[12:15:54] <SAL9000> S3: don't you also need redirects & pipe stuff? I guess both of those can be done via FIFO-files
L204[12:16:45] <S3> SAL9000: I'm going way back to 1960s
L205[12:16:59] <SAL9000> sure, but you said "any combination of other functions"
L206[12:17:02] <coderboy14> Oh. Yah, I forgot about my TCP library. That will be in charge of creating the system's packets, and insuring data arrives. A packet will be pretty nested, specifying the highest level return server, then the second highest, and so on and so on, so there systems know where to reply to.
L207[12:17:20] <SAL9000> @coderboy14: that ain't TCP...
L208[12:17:21] <S3> right, those 6 functions can be used to create anything you need in a unix environment
L209[12:17:53] <S3> of course, you still have your other stuff that you implement in your os liek malloc and strlen, etc
L210[12:17:54] <S3> but
L211[12:17:58] <S3> like*
L212[12:18:44] <S3> @coderboy14: The OS I'm working on naturally uses other OC computers nearby running the same scheduler to distribute every process across the cluster.
L213[12:19:05] <S3> so for example if you need twice as much RAM as you can fit you can make another computer and run the same OS on it and mark it with the cluster name
L214[12:19:14] <SAL9000> lol "stuff that you implement in your os"... malloc & strlen are totally different categories
L215[12:19:34] <SAL9000> malloc is something you can't really do yourself in an OS environment unless you're actually single-user ala DOS
L216[12:19:36] <S3> SAL9000: right, but I'm just saying, there's obviously other shit you'll be implementing
L217[12:19:40] <SAL9000> strlen is easily reimplemented
L218[12:19:48] <SAL9000> (purely in userspace)
L219[12:19:59] <S3> SAL9000: what are you talk about, I have to write malloc for every hobby OS I've ever written
L220[12:20:02] <S3> in C
L221[12:20:09] <S3> or something like it
L222[12:20:16] <SAL9000> I should clarify
L223[12:20:20] <SAL9000> "do yourself" as in "userspace"
L224[12:20:32] <S3> Well I haven't been talking about userspace :)
L225[12:20:35] <coderboy14> I was thinking about implementing something like that. @S3. I was actually thinking about running a resource-distributor on the sat. so that it can quickly take requests, relay them, and listen again, to reduce the amount of dropped packets.
L226[12:20:37] <SAL9000> my point was that malloc *has* to be OS stuff (at some level) while strlen most emphatically does not
L227[12:20:56] <S3> SAL9000: you will find that at some point you will almost always need an strlen in the kernel
L228[12:21:06] <SAL9000> for the kernel itself? sure
L229[12:21:20] <SAL9000> it doesn't have to be exposed to userspace though
L230[12:21:32] <S3> course not userspace is your sandbox
L231[12:21:41] <S3> you can have nothing in it at all for all you care
L232[12:22:14] <SAL9000> yeah, but if you don't expose malloc to userspace then userspace is fucked
L233[12:22:17] <coderboy14> Before I actually start working on my OS too much, I was working on a GitHub software. So I can download my latest repo to the system to boot. Almost like remote-booting. I use a external editor for coding anyways, so.......
L234[12:22:30] <S3> @coderboy14: I am using the actor model, so it only made sense to allow process distribution over the network
L235[12:22:41] <S3> in most cases I don't need to write any protocol stuff
L236[12:22:54] <S3> since I can just add some computer to the cluster
L237[12:22:55] ⇦ Quits: Johannes13__ (Johannes13__!~Johannes1@p200300C1B3CF87002895D6F194ED2DAC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 383 seconds)
L238[12:23:06] <coderboy14> @S3 A what? I'm not really a network manager. lol. Most of what I do is write softwares. lol.
L239[12:23:39] <S3> @coderboy14: The actor model! I highly recommend you sit down and read about it someday. It is beautiful :)
L240[12:23:45] <S3> It's not networking related
L241[12:24:16] <coderboy14> lol. @S3. I have really dived into programming. I haven't even been doing it that long. Maybe since I was 10 (5 years).
L242[12:24:39] <S3> I may have been programming for too long
L243[12:24:50] <S3> because perhaps my sanity is gone
L244[12:25:33] <coderboy14> lol. I never had any sanity in the first place. And you're never done learning to program, you could always be doing something better. Faster, more features, better formatting, etc.
L245[12:25:47] <S3> @coderboy14: I am twice as old as you are and I started programming when Iw as younger than you when you started :)
L246[12:26:06] <S3> My first programs are old enough to drink alchohol
L247[12:26:35] <coderboy14> lol. I programmed before that, but that's when I got really into it. Learning languages like Java and whatnot. I originally started on scratch.mit, then moved up to VB, then to HTML, then to PHP, and so on.
L248[12:26:44] <S3> Hehe
L249[12:26:49] <S3> Java didn't exist when I started
L250[12:27:00] <coderboy14> lol.
L251[12:27:26] <coderboy14> I'm learning swift now, want to learn Python and C++
L252[12:27:41] <S3> well, I think it released just about the same time but it definately was not like it is now. Yeah Java released in 1995 and 1995 was when I started really getting into Programming
L253[12:28:17] <S3> @coderboy14: Have you expressed any interests into non imperative languages?
L254[12:28:26] <S3> such as declarative or functional programming languages?
L255[12:28:28] <coderboy14> lol. I wasn't even alive back then. Not until eight years later. What?
L256[12:29:38] <S3> Since you've only really been deeply involved for 5 years or so it's a great time to step back and take a look at those kind of languages too, it may boost your problem solving skills to even greater heights :)
L257[12:29:44] <S3> It sure did with me
L258[12:29:49] <SAL9000> ^^
L259[12:29:50] <SAL9000> all the +1
L260[12:29:51] <SAL9000> all of it
L261[12:30:30] <coderboy14> lol. I really have no clue what those are. I've really only been studying a few languages here and there. Most of what I do is create websites, but I also occasionally make IOS apps and Java softwares.
L262[12:30:50] <S3> I'm not saying you should convert to them, but being really effective with both imperative and other paradigms is very important if you want to have a large skillset
L263[12:30:58] <S3> especially early on
L264[12:31:31] <SAL9000> @coderboy14: http://learnyouahaskell.com/chapters http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
L265[12:31:32] <S3> There are times when even Object Oriented languages are just a really bad choice.
L266[12:32:01] <S3> Lisp is great. although the PCL book is a bit overwhelming
L267[12:32:05] <coderboy14> Yah. I really only do one thing. Program. Night and day, besides school. My idea is, learn as many languages as I can proficiently, so that if I apply for a programming job, I have an advantage against others
L268[12:32:48] <SAL9000> S3: I found that book with some prior knowledge, so it worked great for me. Didn't want to link the SPELs book because that one's just silly
L269[12:32:54] <S3> If you REALLY, REALLY serious about studying programming, there's a book from MIT that's really dense and beautiful right here: http://web.mit.edu/alexmv/6.037/sicp.pdf
L270[12:33:06] <S3> but that is overwhelming too in a sense
L271[12:33:14] <SAL9000> S3: I TA'd a course based around that book.
L272[12:33:20] <S3> :)
L273[12:33:22] <SAL9000> it's a good book, but scheme is pain
L274[12:33:25] <S3> right
L275[12:33:25] ⇨ Joins: Backslash (Backslash!~Backslash@ip-94-114-162-224.unity-media.net)
L276[12:33:30] <S3> I don't care for scheme either
L277[12:33:48] <S3> but @coderboy14: That book is so amazing, it goes through like 250 pages or so, halfway through the damn book before introducing variables
L278[12:33:50] <S3> :D
L279[12:33:59] <coderboy14> I don't like learning in classes. They're structured incorrectly for me. I learn by usually watching a series on YT to get the basics, and afterwards, I learn by Googling what I don
L280[12:34:01] <coderboy14> 't know
L281[12:34:04] <SAL9000> also the MIT "intro to programming" course slides
L282[12:34:07] <S3> and then when it does it apologizes and says I'm sorry I'm about to unleash the devastating world of variables
L283[12:34:17] <S3> and why variables are so bad
L284[12:34:37] <Xal> why do you need variables when you have lambda
L285[12:34:46] <SAL9000> ^_^
L286[12:35:15] <S3> @coderboy14: A good book on Haskell might be fun for you,or Learn you some Erlang for great good
L287[12:35:22] <S3> perhaps Elixir is a good taste
L288[12:35:24] <SAL9000> S3: (defvar *earmuffs* nil "because I was too lazy to have a million parameters in my deeply-recursive function I used global variables instead https://www.xkcd.com/292/ ")
L289[12:35:24] <MichiBot> XKCD Comic Name: goto Posted on: 7/20/2007
L290[12:35:34] <S3> I am an Elixir developer these days, but I'm not going to shove Elixir down your throat
L291[12:35:42] <Xal> haskell from first principles is absolutely amazing
L292[12:36:10] <Wuerfel_21> Haskell is suck tho
L293[12:36:18] <SAL9000> Haskell is love tho
L294[12:36:20] <Vexatos> S3, use selene
L295[12:36:23] * Vexatos runs
L296[12:36:24] <SAL9000> ...until you need to do something Real World, ofc
L297[12:36:45] <SAL9000> in all seriousness it's wonderful for solving abstract problems but I/O and threads are PAIN in haskell
L298[12:36:46] <SAL9000> PAIN I SAY
L299[12:36:51] <Xal> what??
L300[12:37:00] <SAL9000> maybe I just need a few years of formal education in Monad Theory or something, iunno
L301[12:37:01] <Xal> monadic IO is wonderfully terse and controlled
L302[12:37:38] <coderboy14> I should prob. get back to my OpenComputer OS. It won't write itself ( I wish ).
L303[12:37:44] <SAL9000> \o/
L304[12:37:44] <S3> @coderboy14 Ideally it would just be very beneficial for you to gain some programming experience outside of an imperative world as well, because all imperative languages are well.. very simialr to eachother, which is good, but I think declarative, stack and functional languages would really develop some powerful skills
L305[12:38:14] <Vexatos> semi-functional languages are good enough
L306[12:38:14] <S3> If you don't, you might end up in a bucket of imperative programmers that never learn any other style of development and see no reason why it's worth it.
L307[12:38:16] <Xal> SAL9000: funny enough, the IO monad is implemented in terms of an unboxed type called RealWorld#
L308[12:38:18] <Vexatos> noone cares about haskell >_>
L309[12:38:36] <S3> I have to admit, Haskell is too strict
L310[12:38:37] <SAL9000> @coderboy14: I can add that I got my current day job (which I absolutely love) thanks to learning all kinds of weird languages rather than restricting myself to what school/uni taught me.
L311[12:38:52] <Vexatos> Pure functional languages are cool but useless
L312[12:38:52] <Wuerfel_21> The problem with functional programming is that 90% of programs deal with lots of state
L313[12:39:06] <Xal> functional programming can do state?
L314[12:39:08] <SAL9000> @Wuerfel_21: f(state, input) -> state2
L315[12:39:12] <S3> @coderboy14: IMO it's about knowing how to adapt to languages and paradigms rather than knowing the languages you work with
L316[12:39:15] <coderboy14> Hah. Yah, I hate that kind of structured learning, I need to be able to move around, and learn freely.
L317[12:39:15] <Vexatos> If it has states it's not functional >_<
L318[12:39:22] <S3> if you are good at what you do you can learn a language in a week
L319[12:39:23] <Xal> Vexatos: not true
L320[12:39:24] <S3> or less
L321[12:39:30] <Wuerfel_21> Also pure functional doesn't translate well to actual CPU instructions
L322[12:39:35] <S3> to the point where you can get paid for it
L323[12:39:40] <SAL9000> S3: that and "if you have a lot of points-of-reference"
L324[12:39:48] <Xal> Wuerfel_21: google spineless tagless g-machine
L325[12:39:49] <S3> :)
L326[12:39:56] <Vexatos> I'd rather you learn a very functional language than a pure functional language
L327[12:39:56] <SAL9000> @Wuerfel_21: That just requires a Sufficiently Smart Compiler(tm)
L328[12:39:58] <Vexatos> like Julia :⁾
L329[12:40:14] <SAL9000> S3: I have to ask though, how is Elixir different from Erlang itself?
L330[12:40:15] <Vexatos> stack-based languages are a good idea to learn generally
L331[12:40:19] <Vexatos> just for the concept
L332[12:40:24] <coderboy14> I am really good at computer programming as a a whole. My brain loves the way it works, the structure of everything, the problem solving, etc. I just have a very hard time applying my attention to learning the language for a long time.
L333[12:40:24] <Wuerfel_21> But you still only have local vars, basically
L334[12:40:27] <Xal> Vexatos: "I'd like to learn a language that has the complexity of a functional language but without the benefits"
L335[12:40:46] <S3> @coderboy14 I say live to become a problem solver :)
L336[12:40:47] <Xal> haskell is strict BECAUSE it nets you huge benefits
L337[12:40:58] <Wuerfel_21> And these are<ß
L338[12:41:05] <Wuerfel_21> *?
L339[12:41:11] <S3> SAL9000: Elixir and Erlang are actually very close. the syntax in Elixir is a lot cleaner looking, also thanks to Ruby devs working on it
L340[12:41:18] <Xal> Wuerfel_21: easy paralellization because data-dependencies can actually be tracked by the compiler
L341[12:41:20] <SAL9000> Xal: a language that has lambdas and lets you pass them around is pretty much a functional language already -- conferring huge benefits. Not as huge as fully functional langs, ofc
L342[12:41:40] <SAL9000> S3: I will say that Ruby horrifies me with it's syntactical inconsistency (e.g. the flow control structures)
L343[12:41:49] <S3> The great thing about Elixir is that it is close enough that you don't have to be an Erlang programmer to write erlang calls and stuff in Elixir because you just know how to read Erlang code and translate it to Elixir syntax
L344[12:41:51] <Xal> when you have global state, concurrency is literal hell on earth
L345[12:41:59] <S3> ell Elixir is a lot more consistent
L346[12:42:07] <S3> since it is declarative it has to be
L347[12:42:17] <S3> at least reasonably
L348[12:42:22] <S3> you're working with data 99% of the time
L349[12:42:25] <Wuerfel_21> How is ruby inconsistent?
L350[12:42:25] <SAL9000> Xal: transactional memory :)
L351[12:42:42] <Xal> SAL9000: nevermind the fact haskell is pretty much the only major lang that does STM right
L352[12:42:51] <SAL9000> *so far*
L353[12:42:55] <Xal> true
L354[12:42:58] <SAL9000> I'm eagerly awaiting the (S)TM revolution
L355[12:43:13] <SAL9000> Intel already implemented the hardware instructions, although their first attempt had to be diked out
L356[12:43:30] <Xal> hardware STM is incredibly exciting
L357[12:43:31] <Wuerfel_21> IMO ruby has one of the best syntaxes around
L358[12:43:41] <SAL9000> fwiw my day job is language design/implementation
L359[12:43:47] <Xal> Wuerfel_21: lol
L360[12:44:03] <SAL9000> @Wuerfel_21: you obviously have not used lisp.
L361[12:44:21] <S3> Ruby gets its syntax heresey from Perl
L362[12:44:30] <Xal> you know what's pretty funny
L363[12:44:35] <Xal> ruby syntax is ambiguous to parse
L364[12:44:42] <SAL9000> *OBJECTION!* Perl's control flow syntax is very consistent!
L365[12:44:44] <Vexatos> something something insert crystal ad here
L366[12:44:45] <Xal> sign of A++ language design
L367[12:45:00] <S3> SAL9000: yes but in the sense that there's 5 million ways to do the same thing
L368[12:45:05] <Vexatos> http://crystal-lang.org/ :⁾
L369[12:45:06] <S3> Ruby and Perl both share that attribute
L370[12:45:07] <SAL9000> nothing wrong with that...
L371[12:45:23] <S3> Perl is perhaps one of my favorite imperative languages
L372[12:45:32] <S3> I wrote in Perl for years before hopping to declarative style
L373[12:45:53] <Xal> as a functional programmer it pains me to say this but... perl 6 had some good ideas
L374[12:45:57] <SAL9000> S3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Perl
L375[12:46:04] <S3> Perl is the kind of language where I can just not give a shit
L376[12:46:09] <SAL9000> Xal: but too damn many operators, right?
L377[12:46:13] <Wuerfel_21> Code Block pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/yitifocica such beauty
L378[12:46:17] <S3> and I also had fun messing with the symbol table and other things too
L379[12:46:20] <Xal> perl 6 grammars lets you write recursive descent grammars right in your program
L380[12:46:25] <Xal> that's pretty neat
L381[12:46:26] <S3> if Perl can't do something you can make it do it
L382[12:46:27] <S3> :)
L383[12:46:38] <SAL9000> oh god that reminds me of my first year at uni
L384[12:46:39] <S3> abuse that nondeterministic compiler
L385[12:46:42] <Xal> of course, haskell quasiquoters are probably a better option when embedding DSLs in your program
L386[12:46:49] <SAL9000> "okay so your assignment today is to implement command line argument parsing in C..."
L387[12:46:54] <S3> LOL
L388[12:46:57] <SAL9000> me: fuck you, #include <perl.h>
L389[12:47:03] <S3> I see where this is going..
L390[12:47:15] <S3> why not #include getopt...
L391[12:47:23] <S3> be like hey look!
L392[12:47:29] <SAL9000> we were allowed to use getopt
L393[12:47:31] <S3> ah
L394[12:47:45] <SAL9000> static char* prog = "use Getopt::Long;...";
L395[12:47:48] <SAL9000> etc.
L396[12:47:50] <S3> my professor wouldnt' have allowed us
L397[12:47:53] <S3> likely
L398[12:48:01] <S3> he was all about making you have a good time
L399[12:48:04] <SAL9000> this is first year first semester though
L400[12:48:08] <S3> he would give you a programming assignment once a week
L401[12:48:11] <SAL9000> i.e. if it compiles, good on you
L402[12:48:23] <S3> and he'd always try to make you do something you didn't feel like doing
L403[12:48:25] <SAL9000> but we had to demonstrate + explain our stuff in those workshops
L404[12:48:30] <SAL9000> so I show the tutor my thing
L405[12:48:36] <SAL9000> and he's like *jawdrop* wtf did you do
L406[12:48:44] <SAL9000> dont do it again
L407[12:48:46] <SAL9000> :p
L408[12:48:52] <Wuerfel_21> C-style structs are something many langs lack
L409[12:48:59] <Xal> lol what
L410[12:49:01] <SAL9000> (defstruct foo bar baz)
L411[12:49:14] <Xal> product types are something even go has ffs
L412[12:49:27] <SAL9000> (foo-bar (make-foo "bar" :baz)) => "bar"
L413[12:49:29] <S3> @wuerfel_21 Elixir structs are BEAST
L414[12:49:31] <Xal> when go has it, you can be sure every lang since 1960 has had it
L415[12:49:51] <S3> I have projects where 99% of my project is nothing but almost empty files with nothing but a module with a struct and nothing else
L416[12:50:06] <S3> module just contains the struct
L417[12:50:12] <Wuerfel_21> The lack of structs has caused me much despair when programming in java
L418[12:50:18] <SAL9000> ...well duh, it's JAVA
L419[12:50:27] <Xal> Wuerfel_21 java has classes?
L420[12:50:30] <SAL9000> Java and despair are synonyms, don'tchaknow
L421[12:50:30] <S3> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/8v8yXyhB/
L422[12:50:35] <S3> something like that
L423[12:50:38] <Wuerfel_21> But they are pointer types
L424[12:50:47] <Xal> you don't need unboxed types
L425[12:50:54] <Xal> let the compiler sort it out
L426[12:50:58] <SAL9000> *shudder*
L427[12:51:00] <S3> better yet I can do binary pattern matching into structs :D
L428[12:51:05] <SAL9000> nice!
L429[12:51:06] <Wuerfel_21> So you either have horrible immutable objects (grr, BlockPos)
L430[12:51:18] <SAL9000> @Wuerfel_21: dude use a better language
L431[12:51:22] <Wuerfel_21> Or inexplicable bugs
L432[12:51:26] <Xal> use clojure then
L433[12:52:04] <Wuerfel_21> @SAL9000 but nothing i know beats java for GUI code
L434[12:52:04] <S3> I have this program that loads a BMP file into a struct that looks like %Image{ header: <<binaryblob>>, pixels: %{}, colorscheme: :rgb }
L435[12:52:15] <SAL9000> ...
L436[12:52:15] <S3> er pixels: []
L437[12:52:21] * SAL9000 backs away very quickly from the java heresy
L438[12:52:24] <Xal> Wuerfel_21: I've been mashing X to doubt but nothing's happening
L439[12:52:42] * SAL9000 RENEGADE INTERRUPT
L440[12:52:58] * Xal hides behind all the Qt5 bindings
L441[12:53:08] <ben_mkiv> kings \o/ http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=d4335a47dbebe0d501769b6d01d90ec8
L442[12:53:16] <SAL9000> nice!
L443[12:53:41] <Wuerfel_21> Well, java has crossplatform lightweight GUI, garbage collection, lots of stuff in the JRE
L444[12:54:05] <Xal> java is not lightweight
L445[12:54:08] <Wuerfel_21> And the GUI does HTML, too
L446[12:54:19] <Wuerfel_21> Swing is lightweight
L447[12:54:26] <SAL9000> C++ has crossplatform QT5, which does HTML
L448[12:54:28] <Wuerfel_21> As opposed to AWT
L449[12:54:28] <Xal> so does every other gui toolkit
L450[12:54:31] <SAL9000> add the MPS for garbage collection
L451[12:54:33] <SAL9000> profit
L452[12:54:34] <SAL9000> :-)
L453[12:54:35] <Xal> Java UIs suck in general
L454[12:54:41] <Xal> and don't ever integrate with the os
L455[12:54:46] <Wuerfel_21> ^ lies
L456[12:54:48] <SAL9000> (MPS = https://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/ )
L457[12:55:44] <Wuerfel_21> The system L&F is pretry accurate, at least on windows
L458[12:55:59] <Xal> I'm not talking about L&F
L459[12:56:10] <Wuerfel_21> Dunno about linux. Who cares about mac.
L460[12:56:25] <Wuerfel_21> Well, how else would they not integrate?
L461[12:56:59] <Xal> "everyone, gather round and observe the java developer in its natural habitat"
L462[12:57:39] <Xal> jokes aside, swing/java aren't exactly known for interfacing with OSes very well
L463[12:58:31] <Wuerfel_21> Most people don't appear to value good integration. CIP: these horrible skinned-chromium softwares like discord and rpg maker mv
L464[12:59:09] <SAL9000> >Electron
L465[12:59:15] * SAL9000 BLAMs the Extra Heresy
L466[12:59:58] <SAL9000> most people also don't know what good software looks like anymore
L467[13:00:03] <SAL9000> because there's so much crap out there
L468[13:00:31] <Forecaster> it should have as much always-online drm as possible
L469[13:00:33] <Forecaster> obviously
L470[13:00:38] <Wuerfel_21> JS is hot garbage
L471[13:01:58] <coderboy14> I'm not familiar with this Lua. Would this work for defining an array [ local default_certauth = {"url":"localhost","auth":{"type":"none"}} ]
L472[13:02:23] <Forecaster> %lua local myarray = [ local default_certauth = {"url":"localhost","auth":{"type":"none"}} ]
L473[13:02:23] <MichiBot> main:1: unexpected symbol near '['
L474[13:02:27] <Forecaster> nope
L475[13:02:30] <Forecaster> :P
L476[13:03:03] <coderboy14> The brackets are where my code gets surrounded. Remove the squares. I do that and not the Discord syntax for code snippets, for people in IRC.
L477[13:03:12] <coderboy14> %lua local default_certauth = {"url":"localhost","auth":{"type":"none"}}
L478[13:03:12] <MichiBot> main:1: '}' expected near ':'
L479[13:03:16] <Xal> %lua local default_certauth = { url = "localhost", auth = { type = "none" } }
L480[13:03:22] <Forecaster> don't
L481[13:03:25] <Forecaster> it's just confusing
L482[13:03:30] <Xal> use backticks
L483[13:03:38] <Skye> we all understand the discord syntax
L484[13:03:42] <Skye> as it's markdown syntax
L485[13:03:46] <Skye> and a lot of docs are in markdown
L486[13:03:51] <Xal> or you could just not use discord
L487[13:03:56] <Skye> gasp
L488[13:04:02] <SAL9000> come to the irc side, we have cookies
L489[13:04:11] <Forecaster> it's a lie
L490[13:04:14] <coderboy14> I just wanted to make it easier for everyone to see, and I figured it was explanatory after a second or two. I prefer the UI with notifications and crap.
L491[13:04:17] <Vexatos> I'd really like some cookies right now
L492[13:04:17] <SAL9000> no, that's the cake
L493[13:04:19] <Forecaster> I'm on the irc side, there are no cookies
L494[13:04:38] <Xal> my irc client has ui, notifications, AND crap
L495[13:04:49] <AmandaC> That's because you're trying to play both sides by also being on discord, @Forecaster
L496[13:05:38] * Skye noms on catgirl cookies
L497[13:05:39] <Xal> can your puny discord do this?
L498[13:05:39] <Skye> nya
L499[13:05:40] <coderboy14> So, with this, we don't define the index inside of double quotes? I prefer this, most IRC clients I get for my Mac have crummy UIs and poor capabilities. I just like the click-and-works easy aspect of Discord. Wanna chat about another game in another server. CLICK. and I still get notifications from here.
L500[13:06:09] <Xal> use hexchat
L501[13:06:11] <coderboy14> I'm not saying IRC is bad, but I prefer this.
L502[13:06:20] <Skye> `{["this"] = true }` is the same as `{this=true}`
L503[13:06:28] <Xal> discord is malware
L504[13:06:30] <Wuerfel_21> Mac sucks, too
L505[13:06:46] <coderboy14> What? Whatever, off topic. So, am I right. Okay. I wasn't sure, because Roblox uses the first and second one, but I though I saw the JSON style method being used. I love my Mac, amazing for development.
L506[13:06:58] <Skye> ew mac
L507[13:07:00] <Xal> discord is literally malware that spies on your conversations
L508[13:07:11] <Skye> I have to use discord for my friends
L509[13:07:11] <Skye> x_x
L510[13:07:20] <Skye> I want to delete everything
L511[13:07:22] <Skye> but they won't let m,e
L512[13:07:24] <Skye> but they won't let me [Edited]
L513[13:07:24] <Skye> as in
L514[13:07:28] <Skye> my friends won't let me
L515[13:07:30] <SAL9000> Xal: everything spies on your conversations, at least unless you use OTR or similar
L516[13:07:31] <Xal> try to get them all on signal or something
L517[13:07:38] <Skye> not all have phones
L518[13:07:39] <coderboy14> I don't use Discord for anything private. I'm way to security concerned for that.
L519[13:07:40] <Wuerfel_21> `<Xal> discord is literally malware that spies on your conversations` that is how chat software works
L520[13:07:57] <Xal> you can't be security concerned and use mac
L521[13:08:00] <Xal> or windows
L522[13:08:10] <Xal> convince me otherwise
L523[13:08:13] <SAL9000> https://www.qubes-os.org/
L524[13:08:33] <Skye> I can't afford to have isolated computers
L525[13:08:35] <Skye> x_x
L526[13:08:39] <coderboy14> Mac is one of the most secure consumer OSes you can get. For really security concerned things, I get a cheap flashdrive, install Tails on it, do what I need to do, then destroy the flash-drive
L527[13:08:49] <SAL9000> >Tails
L528[13:08:57] <SAL9000> FYI, that keyword gets you onto quite a few lists.
L529[13:09:06] <Xal> WHY ISN'T X TO DOUBT WORKING
L530[13:09:07] <Skye> that sounds a bit paranoid
L531[13:09:11] <Skye> because uh
L532[13:09:15] <Xal> emacs has M-x spook to get you on lists
L533[13:09:17] <Skye> techy people say that sometimes
L534[13:09:20] <coderboy14> I know. I am already on at least sixty something for thousands of different countries.
L535[13:09:27] <Skye> tbh
L536[13:09:28] <Forecaster> you don't wanna get on those Sonic fanfic lists
L537[13:09:29] <Xal> I will get everyone on here on a list real quick
L538[13:09:29] <Skye> it doesn't matter
L539[13:09:31] <Skye> if you exist
L540[13:09:31] <Xal> with M-x spook
L541[13:09:34] <Skye> you're on a list
L542[13:09:36] <Xal> Osama SAFE Ionosphere kilo class press-release UN SP4 Emergency
L543[13:09:37] <Xal> response Kidnap Burst rebels ETA Lexis-Nexis M72750 GSG-9
L544[13:09:37] <Xal>
L545[13:09:39] <Xal> haha
L546[13:09:41] <Xal> it always makes gold
L547[13:09:44] <SAL9000> \o/
L548[13:09:53] <Wuerfel_21> Mac is also one of the most buggy and confusing OSs you can get. Apple goes to extremes to be as backwards as possible
L549[13:09:56] <Skye> everyone is on a list
L550[13:10:05] <Skye> with a different rating
L551[13:10:07] <Skye> xD
L552[13:10:15] <coderboy14> I'm almost 100% on a list for "Possible psychopaths", "Potentially Dangerous People", and "Future Edward Snowden". I completely disagree @Wuerfel_21
L553[13:10:17] <Skye> it's too late
L554[13:10:26] <Xal> I love the description for M-x spook
L555[13:10:30] <Xal> "Adds that special touch of class to your outgoing mail."
L556[13:10:36] <SAL9000> I love that it's an actual thing
L557[13:10:39] <SAL9000> I thought you were joking
L558[13:10:43] <Skye> I have a feeling that enough people add noise
L559[13:10:44] <Xal> no it comes built in
L560[13:10:47] <asie> @coderboy14 only sixty something?
L561[13:10:50] <Skye> to make those lists
L562[13:10:51] <Skye> either
L563[13:10:58] <Skye> like
L564[13:11:00] <asie> also, Mac? The same OS which posted your APFS drive password in plaintext to its own logs?
L565[13:11:04] <coderboy14> @asie at least.
L566[13:11:23] <Xal> OSX, the hallmark of consumer security where "root" with no password gives you access
L567[13:11:24] <Skye> the lists are "either dangerous or a computer geek"
L568[13:11:24] <asie> Macs are many things, but I wouldn't call them secure. iOS, maybe.
L569[13:11:28] <asie> Not OS X.
L570[13:11:35] <Wuerfel_21> I tried importing videos from an iphone to mac once. The photo gallery thing bugged out. I tried writing a bash script on a mac once. No text editor.
L571[13:11:47] <Xal> emacs?
L572[13:11:54] <asie> vim
L573[13:11:57] <Xal> it's pretty ancient but it comes with osx
L574[13:12:04] <coderboy14> @asie If you know what your doing, you can be secure. You just need to be secure. At very least, bare Mac OSX is more secure then bare Windows
L575[13:12:12] <SAL9000> 20:11:22 <Xal> OSX, the hallmark of consumer security where "root" with no password gives you access
L576[13:12:19] <asie> that is very debatable with recent OS X updates
L577[13:12:21] <SAL9000> no amount of "know what you're doing" can protect you from that.
L578[13:12:23] <asie> probably was true in the XP/Vista days, though
L579[13:12:32] <Xal> coderboy14: windows isn't exactly a very high bar
L580[13:12:33] <Skye> that root exploit
L581[13:12:37] <Skye> was literally
L582[13:12:46] <Wuerfel_21> XP was god-tier
L583[13:12:59] <Wuerfel_21> 10 is just sad
L584[13:12:59] ⇨ Joins: MajGenRelativity (MajGenRelativity!uid288574@id-288574.hathersage.irccloud.com)
L585[13:13:02] <Skye> a password upgrade was botched
L586[13:13:09] <asie> XP took two service packs to be god-tier
L587[13:13:15] <asie> (interestingly, Vista also took two service packs to be god-tier)
L588[13:13:19] <coderboy14> If you're stupid and set that up, then... I have my entire system password perfected, my HDD encrypted with FireVault, I have a boot-up password, all of my important files inside of the OS are under multiple layers of encryption.
L589[13:13:25] <asie> @coderboy14 Pff
L590[13:13:34] <SAL9000> >boot-up password
L591[13:13:34] <Skye> Windows 7 was basically windows but with bug fixes
L592[13:13:38] <SAL9000> bwahahahaha
L593[13:13:39] <asie> @coderboy14 https://www.mac4n6.com/blog/2018/3/21/uh-oh-unified-logs-in-high-sierra-1013-show-plaintext-password-for-apfs-encrypted-external-volumes-via-disk-utilityapp
L594[13:14:08] <Xal> coderboy14: encrypted.... with a proprietary program
L595[13:14:11] <Xal> so
L596[13:14:13] <Xal> not encrypted
L597[13:14:16] <Skye> my laptop security is "nothing secure, but enough to make a random theif rather strip it for parts than to steal data"
L598[13:14:22] <asie> Eh, I would trust Apple more than I would trust Microsoft or Google, purely in regards to their profit model
L599[13:14:34] <asie> They sell you hardware. Privacy and encryption is a reason for them to sell you hardware.
L600[13:14:35] <Xal> >trusting multinational conglomerates
L601[13:14:51] <asie> Xal: How's that RISC-V on a Lattice iCE40 coming along, eh?
L602[13:14:56] <Xal> haha
L603[13:14:57] <Xal> true
L604[13:15:17] * AmandaC looks over to her macbook sitting on the desk "I should nuke and pave that thing and sell it already..."
L605[13:15:29] <asie> You have to set a point of trust somewhere, and I'm just saying that in regards to encryption I'd trust Apple to not have a good reason, beyond being forced to do so by the government, to botch encryption
L606[13:15:46] <Xal> "being forced to do so by the government"
L607[13:15:48] <Xal> yeah
L608[13:15:48] <asie> especially as iPhones had issues with being decrypted by even law enforcement for quite some time
L609[13:15:49] <Xal> so it's botched
L610[13:15:55] <asie> one could say that about any encryption
L611[13:16:04] <Skye> if you want good security
L612[13:16:07] <Skye> don't own a PC
L613[13:16:08] <asie> but then you get on the other side of paranoia, like Telegram inventing their own DIY crypto
L614[13:16:18] <asie> which I have a feeling was done due to a similar line of thinking
L615[13:16:28] <Xal> rule of thumb: use open-source crypto that's been audited
L616[13:16:38] <asie> Remember when OpenSSL was trusted by just about everyone?
L617[13:16:44] <asie> Or... Debian?
L618[13:16:49] <asie> That's hardly a rule of thumb.
L619[13:16:52] <coderboy14> @asie for casual security, that's not bad. This is for basic files like school report cards, or essays. My more security stuff is kept on my server with many levels of security. I have a unix system running connected to LAN only, via ethernet. On there, I use a OTP to authenticate myself into the SSH ( if you try and login from the actual computer, the files self-delete ), then I need to decrypt it with a PGP key stored on my computer, and th
L620[13:16:52] <coderboy14> again using an app I made for my phone. Then I have password encryption. Plus, the system has a bunch of self-destruct backup plans. I have a raspberry PI connected to the ethernet, so if I click a small button in my room, everything is gone. I have it so if you remove the hard drive, it's deleted, if you try and use the computer itself, it's deleted. Etc.
L621[13:16:54] <SAL9000> "that's been audited"
L622[13:17:09] <SAL9000> afaik debian/openssl never really got formal sec audits
L623[13:17:29] <Skye> why not use multiple levels of different crypography
L624[13:17:30] <asie> OpenSSL got one after Heartbleed
L625[13:17:32] <Xal> openssl: "well, at least it's better than gnutls"
L626[13:17:36] <Xal> (tm)
L627[13:17:51] <asie> and now they're getting another one
L628[13:18:17] <asie> what I'm saying is: you have to set a point of trust
L629[13:18:20] <coderboy14> Here's how to know if your privacy is protected. It isn't.
L630[13:18:25] <Xal> coderboy14: all of your "security" is essentially placebo considering you're using proprietary shitware for it
L631[13:18:34] <Skye> I need to make 68ks
L632[13:18:42] <coderboy14> Some of it, yes. Some of it opensource. Some of it made by me.
L633[13:18:53] <Xal> one weak link breaks the chain
L634[13:19:00] <asie> a point in which you say "In my personal attack model, I can trust this far and be sufficiently confident that the levels under it are either uncompromised or not compromised in a way which endangers me."
L635[13:19:50] <asie> I mean, we're all being publicly logged right now - so we trust that our attack model for this conversation excludes script kiddies armed with Google
L636[13:20:05] <asie> (and obviously anyone more powerful than script kiddies armed with Google)
L637[13:20:23] <asie> those of you using Discord additionally trust Discord, the corporate. Those of you who aren't do as well, as all communications are bridged two-way
L638[13:20:39] <Skye> this is a public channel
L639[13:21:04] <Xal> despite being a public channel /whois Skye says "Skye is using a secure connection"
L640[13:21:05] <coderboy14> Don't forget that there's practically always a camera that's watching you.
L641[13:21:21] <Skye> I like TLS
L642[13:21:22] ⇦ Quits: MalkContent (MalkContent!~MalkConte@p4FDCD8E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Leaving)
L643[13:21:24] <Xal> yeah like your mac's camera because you're running proprietary malware
L644[13:21:27] <Skye> even though it's a public channel
L645[13:21:37] <Skye> I have more private stuf
L646[13:21:47] <Xal> TLS is very nice
L647[13:22:07] * Xal takes a minute to remember the good ol days when everything was sent in cleartext
L648[13:22:57] <AmandaC> Man, who knew writing a large number of files to a spinning-rust HDD would be so time consuming.
L649[13:23:12] <asie> Xal: got libreboot?
L650[13:23:16] * AmandaC waits while dependencies get updated
L651[13:23:45] <asie> if you're on a chromebook, does that mean you live without video acceleration? if you're on a thinkpad, are you aware your embedded controller, powering just about anything that's not the main CPU, is still "proprietary malware"?
L652[13:23:55] <asie> if you're on a desktop board... consider yourself lucky. for now
L653[13:23:58] <Xal> asie: unfortunately only on my x200
L654[13:24:12] <asie> yeah unfortunately the x200 is too slow for me
L655[13:24:34] <asie> and most Haswell+ laptops cannot have firmware unofficially modified, ever (Intel Boot Guard)
L656[13:24:42] <asie> (desktops do not have this problem, and neither do Chromebooks)
L657[13:24:45] <Xal> yeah that's pretty shitty
L658[13:24:51] <asie> yeah your only hope is a Chromebook
L659[13:24:52] <tinydoggy> is there a popular button API that most people use for their programs?
L660[13:24:53] <asie> and i wish i was joking
L661[13:25:19] <CompanionCube> asie: if you're on a desktop
L662[13:25:27] <Wuerfel_21> GPU drivers can be proprietary. Because they aren't really security riscs, are they?
L663[13:25:37] <AmandaC> hahahahahahhaahhahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaa
L664[13:25:42] <CompanionCube> are you ware of the proprietary ME/PSP/UEFI firmware/GPU|CPU microcode
L665[13:25:50] <Wuerfel_21> Leaking your screen data would be too noticalble
L666[13:26:01] <AmandaC> A non-trivial number of VM escapes happen through GPU driver bugs, @Wuerfel_21
L667[13:26:11] <Xal> I interact with my computer through my PC speaker's beeping
L668[13:26:15] <asie> CompanionCube: AMD K10-family Opterons
L669[13:26:26] <asie> no ME, no PSP, no CPU microcode necessary, can run libre GPUs
L670[13:26:29] <asie> and no UEFI.
L671[13:26:33] <asie> try harder
L672[13:26:47] <CompanionCube> asie: does your mobo for that CPU do libreboot?
L673[13:26:47] <coderboy14> How much ram ( in MB ), do you think a Forge server with 43 mods would need?
L674[13:26:52] <Wuerfel_21> @AmandaC thats just bugs with GPU passthrough?
L675[13:27:01] <asie> CompanionCube: I don't use it in practice, I tried me_cleaning my mobo and bricked it
L676[13:27:05] <MGR> ?
L677[13:27:17] <asie> I do have a plan B - a Core 2 Quad Q9550 which goes into two librebootable mobos (only one of them released for now)
L678[13:27:32] <asie> said Q9550 has no ME, PSP, UEFI firmware or GPU firmware, but may need CPU microcode (Meltdown0
L679[13:27:32] <Wuerfel_21> @coderboy14 i had like 130 on 2GB
L680[13:27:42] <asie> (and yes, this C2Q *will* get Meltdown/Spectre microcode patches. thanks Intel!)
L681[13:27:45] <asie> (for doing your job)
L682[13:27:47] <Xal> fuck this I'm just gonna do all my computing on a sliderule
L683[13:27:55] <Wuerfel_21> Fast disks are much more important
L684[13:27:56] <asie> Xal: cameras can still spy on you
L685[13:27:58] <Skye> :<
L686[13:28:00] * CompanionCube has a PSP, UEFI firmware, CPU and GPU microcode :(
L687[13:28:04] <asie> honestly? i would get a Broadwell-era chromebook
L688[13:28:06] <Skye> what could I do to my x220?
L689[13:28:11] <Xal> pray
L690[13:28:18] <asie> you still have firmware even if you don't have "blobs"
L691[13:28:24] <coderboy14> @Wuerfel_21 Okay. I am trying to get my server up, so I can play with others and make a modern-city ( mostly b/c I suck at OC ). I am right now port forwarding my client, so ppl can technically join, but I don't know how well that will go.
L692[13:28:29] <asie> the "blobs" philosophy the FSF set out is meant to be pragmatic and set a realistic area for liberty
L693[13:28:47] <asie> but on-chip CPU microcode isn't different in practice from updated CPU microcode, except that the FSF argues on-chip microcode can be considered a hardwired circuit
L694[13:28:54] <asie> it's a fair way to look at it, but in practice? changes nothing
L695[13:28:57] * CompanionCube would actually be interested in the GNU GuixSD system
L696[13:29:02] <asie> if the on-chip microcode is backdoored it's still backdoored
L697[13:29:09] <CompanionCube> ....but they're purists with microcode
L698[13:29:09] <asie> it makes sense from a perspective of liberty, as a pragmatic "goal"
L699[13:29:14] <Wuerfel_21> @coderboy14 any decent pc from like 2007 onwards is a decent MC server
L700[13:29:14] <asie> but not from a perspective of privacy, or security
L701[13:29:20] <Xal> gotta love ring -3
L702[13:29:22] <asie> if your firmware is backdoored it doesn't matter if it's flashable or not
L703[13:29:34] <asie> now, ensuring only your code runs on the main CPU *and* that no non-free devices get DMA
L704[13:29:43] <asie> that, I think, is something achievable
L705[13:29:52] <asie> instead of getting rid of blobs, which is de-facto impossible, sandbox them
L706[13:30:11] <asie> separate the hardware components you do not trust from ones you do trust (as the code can be audited independently)
L707[13:30:15] <Skye> IOMMU?
L708[13:30:19] <asie> good start
L709[13:30:21] <asie> as long as you trust the IOMMU
L710[13:30:26] <Wuerfel_21> These hosters advertising huge amounts of ram are BS
L711[13:30:30] <Xal> fuckin electrons are backdoored
L712[13:30:57] <CompanionCube> asie: as long as you don't try sandboxing the CPU with IOMMU, it can be reasonably trusted
L713[13:31:15] <asie> i believe, as such, that the best way to go might well be to pick a Broadwell-era Chromebook (has fewer blobs than Skylake-era while being reasonably modern and available new)
L714[13:31:35] <asie> sandbox off non-free firmware blobs to prevent them from accessing private data, and clear the main CPU
L715[13:31:46] <Xal> legit good advice
L716[13:31:47] <asie> OTOH, Skylake might be better as Skylake ME has a code execution exploit
L717[13:31:52] <asie> which lets you not just disable/corrupt ME
L718[13:31:54] <asie> but take over that CPU core
L719[13:32:15] <asie> this is the closest you can realistically get to a secure but modern system without having R&D money
L720[13:32:22] <asie> (not the closest you can realistically get to a libre system)
L721[13:32:24] <Wuerfel_21> Or reverse engineer the blobs. Like the IOS blobs on the Wii.
L722[13:32:30] <asie> that costs a lot of money
L723[13:32:37] <asie> adding AMD K10-family support to Libreboot cost I think $75k?
L724[13:32:43] <asie> paid to Raptor Engineering, or so
L725[13:32:58] <asie> this work requires insanely skilled individuals who can find high-paying jobs in minutes
L726[13:33:11] <Xal> I just want to say
L727[13:33:15] <asie> even if they agree to take less pay for a noble cause, we're still talking about lots and lots of money
L728[13:33:18] <asie> even if just in necessary equipment
L729[13:33:20] <Xal> god bless those who reverse-engineer hardware to make free drivers
L730[13:33:39] <asie> actually, there is one realistic way
L731[13:33:40] <asie> buy a Talos II
L732[13:33:50] <asie> that system is as libre as physically possible, down to the CPU microcode (!)
L733[13:34:07] <asie> while being competitive in performance with high-end Intel machines
L734[13:34:14] <asie> the only thing it's not competitive in is price: $4k-$5k
L735[13:34:26] <CompanionCube> asie: and hope everything you need runs on POWER
L736[13:34:34] <asie> CompanionCube: if you're only using free software, that's not a problem
L737[13:34:38] <Skye> I wish Talos wasn't as expensive
L738[13:34:41] <Wuerfel_21> Or buy a C64 and run contiki
L739[13:34:45] <asie> Skye: the R&D costs money
L740[13:34:46] <Xal> woops my $10 keyboard has a keylogger
L741[13:34:47] <jackie> POWER is an incredible architecture and I'd really like to get a POWER based server :3
L742[13:34:48] <asie> they have to make it back
L743[13:34:53] <asie> Xal: my keyboard runs free software
L744[13:35:06] <Xal> I will be buried with my model m
L745[13:35:12] <CompanionCube> asie: eh, you might still need spftware not ported to the arch
L746[13:35:20] <asie> CompanionCube: that's not too hard to take care of IMO
L747[13:35:23] <asie> and fairly rare
L748[13:35:28] <asie> i think i would be able to compute on a Talos II
L749[13:35:31] <asie> the problem is i can't afford one
L750[13:35:40] <Xal> same
L751[13:35:41] <asie> which is a shame, I would love to support it
L752[13:35:51] <Xal> all I need on a computer to be productive is emacs
L753[13:35:52] <Skye> I wonder if they could make a talos mini
L754[13:35:58] <Skye> like an older powerPC CPU
L755[13:36:00] * jackie is waiting for the first high-performance RISC-V cores :P
L756[13:36:14] <CompanionCube> Skye: would it be that useful though
L757[13:36:21] <CompanionCube> since PPC is basically dead now
L758[13:36:32] <Skye> well for nutters like us
L759[13:36:41] <Skye> by older I mean stuff like POWER6
L760[13:36:46] <jackie> are the old powerpcs open too? I thought they only made the new openPOWER architecture open hardware?
L761[13:36:47] <asie> CompanionCube: it's not actually dead
L762[13:36:49] <Skye> so still newer than used G5s
L763[13:36:54] <jackie> ah ok.
L764[13:36:55] <asie> it's performance-competitive with Intel too!
L765[13:37:01] <asie> just crazy expensive to get into
L766[13:37:03] <Skye> IF YOU CAN AFFORD THE DARN THINGS
L767[13:37:07] <jackie> power9 <3
L768[13:37:09] <asie> the CPUs actually are comparable in price
L769[13:37:11] <CompanionCube> asie: they initially said PowerPC
L770[13:37:12] <asie> the problem: MAINBOARDS
L771[13:37:14] <CompanionCube> not POWER :p
L772[13:37:35] <CompanionCube> POWER6 seems more reasonable though
L773[13:37:42] <asie> I also like that the Talos II has a secure boot mode with a key you select
L774[13:37:49] <asie> so you can compile your own firmware and ensure that nobody else can do the same
L775[13:38:13] <Xal> asie: what anonymization network do you suggest?
L776[13:38:16] <Xal> i2p, tor, freenet?
L777[13:38:24] <jackie> you can set your own secure boot key in any good UEFI bios
L778[13:38:27] <asie> freenet is not an anonymization network per se
L779[13:38:30] <Skye> all of them!
L780[13:38:36] <Skye> layed on top of each other
L781[13:38:38] <asie> freenet is for hosting its own services
L782[13:38:41] <Skye> from a random library computer
L783[13:38:41] <asie> as if tor only had onion links
L784[13:38:45] <Skye> in other town
L785[13:38:59] <Xal> tor has too many footguns when accessing the clearnet
L786[13:39:04] <CompanionCube> also, in an ideal world i'd likely be running not-linux :p
L787[13:39:13] <asie> CompanionCube: what would you be running?
L788[13:39:17] <asie> openbsd? :^)
L789[13:39:17] <jackie> CompanionCube: why?
L790[13:39:23] <Xal> gnu/hurd
L791[13:39:25] <jackie> freeBDSM
L792[13:39:29] <Wuerfel_21> Because bsdgames
L793[13:40:00] <Skye> OpenOS
L794[13:40:12] <asie> Skye: you actually can!
L795[13:40:16] <asie> there is an OpenOS/Linux distribution
L796[13:40:22] <CompanionCube> asie: likely something that takes inspiration from other OSes such as the LispMs, IBM i, Smalltalk and such.
L797[13:40:25] <Skye> we Linux
L798[13:40:27] <Xal> boot linux with init=ocvm
L799[13:40:27] <coderboy14> If anybody would like to (try) and join, I'm running a forge server. I have about 45 mods, I compressed them and uploaded them to Google Drive [https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jjm7zjtq_NN2aJNgVk6HxAQvpWMgIiu6], and I'd love help with my OC to-do list. lol. I am not the best at this, but I do have a couple server farms ready to host. lol. My server --> 174.55.68.105:29202
L800[13:40:29] <jackie> asie: got a link for that? :3
L801[13:40:29] <Skye> ew
L802[13:40:38] <coderboy14> http://tinyurl.com/yajq84jd
L803[13:40:42] <asie> jackie: https://github.com/starchasers/lupi2
L804[13:40:52] <jackie> xD amazing
L805[13:41:21] <asie> jackie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI_A1iNITsI
L806[13:41:21] <MichiBot> OpenComputers: Now in your pocket! (WIP) | length: 27s | Likes: 35 Dislikes: 1 Views: 1,049 | by asciicharismatic | Published On 19/1/2016
L807[13:41:24] <asie> here it is, running on a Zipit Z2
L808[13:41:28] <CompanionCube> doesn't it basically run OpenOS as /sbin/init?
L809[13:41:33] <asie> yeah
L810[13:45:24] <CompanionCube> asie: jackie: does that sufficiently answer your question of 'what if not linux'
L811[13:46:03] <Wuerfel_21> TempleOS?
L812[13:46:11] <Xal> audited by god himself
L813[13:46:55] <Wuerfel_21> There is a distro with network support floating around...
L814[13:47:04] <jackie> CompanionCube: yes although I don't really see why you wouldn't run linux. I'd understand something like hardened bsd if you *really* want to be on the safe side but from a usability/security tradeof, linux probably is the best choice
L815[13:54:35] <Xal> does anyone know what elliptic curve the data card uses?
L816[13:55:09] <jackie> iirc ed25519 but I'm not completely sure.
L817[13:55:12] <jackie> one sec
L818[13:55:55] <Xal> the docs say you can choose between 256bit and 384bit but doesn't tell you what curve
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L822[14:07:27] <S3> Been a while since I looked, but the data card doesn't have public key stuff right?
L823[14:07:38] <S3> asymetric encryption
L824[14:07:40] <jackie> https://github.com/MightyPirates/OpenComputers/blob/917befcd0e8e256bc52abb038f86bc04f236645a/src/main/scala/li/cil/oc/server/component/DataCard.scala#L234
L825[14:08:05] <jackie> it's not initialized with a specific ECC Curve. I'm currently trying to find out what curve java defaults too ^^
L826[14:08:20] <Xal> thanks!
L827[14:10:55] <thelounge85> Hello, I just got Open Computers and am excited to try out the stuff that comes with it, like the IRC client app you can install on a floppy drive, now to test it out, how exactly do I get the IP of this IRC so I can connect with my OC computer?
L828[14:11:16] <thelounge85> install from*
L829[14:12:02] <Xal> if you don't give it another address it'll connect to this one automatically
L830[14:12:23] <thelounge85> Oh interesting, let me try.
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L832[14:14:50] <thelounge85> Huh.
L833[14:15:13] <thelounge85> It says that there's "no such channel" whenever I try to type in nothing or "OC" when doing /msg
L834[14:16:11] <Xal> do /join #oc
L835[14:16:47] <Wuerfel_21> doesn't the ingame IRC client autojoin #oc?
L836[14:17:01] <thelounge85> Right, forgot the hash, sorry.
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L838[14:17:17] <FelixZed> Did that work?
L839[14:17:22] <FelixZed> Oh yes it did!
L840[14:17:30] <FelixZed> Thank you Xen.
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L842[14:18:29] <FelixZed> This is a REALLY well-done mod, I can't believe it, goes really intricate.
L843[14:19:04] <Xal> great if you want to write your own mods, too, because it's open-source
L844[14:20:10] <Wuerfel_21> The addons are superb, too
L845[14:20:16] <FelixZed> Interesting, though I gotta admit, haven't really gotten into (to put it stupid-ly) "the stuff around computers" that much, all I've ever really done is scratch the surface of coding in Java and build my own computer
L846[14:20:49] <FelixZed> And a bit of server-work, although I'm sure this'll get my interest flowing.
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L851[14:24:30] <S3> FelixZed: I miss the days computers were required to be programmed to use most of the time
L852[14:25:32] <FelixZed> The C64 era and such?
L853[14:25:49] <FelixZed> well "era" you know what I mean.
L854[14:26:14] <S3> yeah. I had a TRS-80. I just loaded up a program I wrote for it a year ago for fun, dug it out of my parents basement
L855[14:26:20] <S3> took some pictures of it the other day:
L856[14:26:21] <S3> https://imgur.com/a/fxvTi
L857[14:26:34] <Xal> I still have to fix the psu on my apple ii
L858[14:26:52] <S3> This is a hex editor I wrote for it
L859[14:26:58] <S3> Xal: do eet
L860[14:27:00] <S3> which apple ii?
L861[14:27:08] <S3> there were so many
L862[14:32:10] <FelixZed> Huh, sorry to change the subject, but the whole "Computers are super-easy to use now" thing I think will screw a lot of people over in the long run, who will be interested in learning the complexities behind computers if they just work regardless and you don't really need the information because it'll work just as well.
L863[14:33:12] <FelixZed> Maybe it'll turn into a niche thing again, who knows?
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L865[14:36:43] <S3> FelixZed: and now you see the gigantic problem I've been trying to say for years
L866[14:37:02] <S3> Computers are easy to use, that does not mean they are simple; Computers are much more complex now than they were.
L867[14:37:12] <FelixZed> Exactly.
L868[14:37:38] <S3> Unfortunately, you can just take anyones library on Java and run some code and never have any clue whats really happening
L869[14:38:15] <S3> For most people that's what they want, and unfortunately, if the majority rules, later on when the world is dominated by those characteristics those that want to know how things work will have that much more trouble figuring it out
L870[14:38:28] <FelixZed> Exactly, yeah.
L871[14:38:50] <S3> It's not limited to computers, it applies to everything, especially cars
L872[14:38:53] <Brisingr Aerowing> I'm still super hyped about Ender IO being out for 1.12.2. Lots have changed, though.
L873[14:38:58] <S3> 10 years from now kids won't know how to back up their car
L874[14:39:08] <S3> because they'll be so dependant on their backup cameras
L875[14:39:20] <FelixZed> Well, they probably will know, they'll just- yeah.
L876[14:39:20] <S3> until the day they need to pull a trailer and realize they are screwed
L877[14:39:47] <FelixZed> Goes with a lot of technology, just like you said.
L878[14:39:58] <S3> I only drive cars with manual transmissions, because when the transmission has problems, I can pull it out and work on it without any complicated and expensive repair issues
L879[14:40:13] <S3> but unfortunately because of majority rules finding standards is very difficult now
L880[14:40:35] <jackie> Xal: from what I can tell the curve used is whatever the default of SunEC security provider is. I couldn't find *any* information what the default curve is though
L881[14:40:48] <Xal> jackie: yeah I was looking yesterday
L882[14:40:54] <Xal> ~it's a mystery curve~
L883[14:40:59] <FelixZed> Yeah.
L884[14:41:21] <FelixZed> Well, sorry, can't speak from experience when it comes to cars, I don't drive.
L885[14:41:25] <FelixZed> But yeah.
L886[14:41:26] <jackie> https://github.com/openjdk-mirror/jdk7u-jdk/blob/master/src/share/classes/sun/security/ec/SunECEntries.java if the default is just the first curve in the list, it could be secp112r1
L887[14:41:42] <Xal> jackie: given the keysizes of 256 and 384
L888[14:41:48] <Xal> my guess was secp256r1 and secp384r1
L889[14:41:56] <jackie> right
L890[14:42:19] <jackie> that's actually very likely
L891[14:43:00] <FelixZed> So, yeah, I'ma check out the robots now, Goodbye
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L894[14:57:01] <joshgreatuk> hi
L895[14:57:43] <joshgreatuk> has anyone got a web browser i could use?
L896[14:57:43] <payonel> o/
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L898[15:00:04] <AmandaC> How were they here using the webchat without a web browser? ?
L899[15:00:14] * AmandaC sneaks off to watch anime
L900[15:00:29] <Forecaster> if you connect from openos it displays as if you were using webchat I think?
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L902[15:03:26] <Forecaster> My new menu system turned out better than I imagined
L903[15:03:33] <Forecaster> http://tinyurl.com/yas52bud
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L905[15:03:56] zsh sets mode: +v on Cazzar
L906[15:04:32] <Forecaster> it's mostly the same as the previous iteration, but it's class based, and I can nest menus now
L907[15:05:29] <Forecaster> and I added the transitions instead of having the menus instantly appear and disappear
L908[15:06:03] <Ben> is that lua?
L909[15:06:06] <Forecaster> no
L910[15:06:11] <Ben> what is it?
L911[15:06:34] <Forecaster> the menu is build using PHP, those are the classes
L912[15:06:44] <Forecaster> but what's in the gif, the menu itself, is just css and html
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L914[15:06:56] <Ben> ah, ok
L915[15:07:17] <Forecaster> built*
L916[15:08:00] <Ben> so procedural markup with some css magic
L917[15:08:24] <Forecaster> pretty much
L918[15:13:08] <Xal> Forecaster, does it use any js
L919[15:13:23] <Forecaster> no
L920[15:13:34] <Xal> nice
L921[15:13:46] <Xal> we need more js-free sites
L922[15:13:56] <Forecaster> the site isn't js-free
L923[15:14:09] <Forecaster> but I don't use it unless I have to
L924[15:14:11] <Xal> what do you use js for on the site?
L925[15:14:47] <Forecaster> manipulating forms and toggling things
L926[15:14:59] <Xal> have you considered switching that to 100% css
L927[15:15:06] <Xal> you can do a lot with css checkbox magic
L928[15:15:17] <Forecaster> not what I'm doing
L929[15:15:24] <Xal> ah well
L930[15:15:33] <Forecaster> that is, adding form elements dynamically
L931[15:15:56] <Xal> what's the site for
L932[15:16:10] <Forecaster> This is my modpack manager
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L934[15:17:10] <S3> gonna use electron?
L935[15:17:21] <Forecaster> for what?
L936[15:17:34] <S3> making it desktopy
L937[15:17:40] <Inari> Well then, that was an interesting thread https://twitter.com/succdicc/status/980170756322676737
L938[15:17:41] <MichiBot> Sat Mar 31 14:51:33 CDT 2018 @succdicc: Someone broke into my car AND LEFT THEIR PHONE IN IT ahahkskskb https://t.co/dCzcXGhgjh
L939[15:17:54] <Forecaster> it's built on a PHP backend
L940[15:18:22] <Forecaster> also there's no point to having it stand-alone as an application
L941[15:18:32] <Forecaster> it's for managing and distributing a modpack
L942[15:18:47] <Forecaster> if only you can access it most of it becomes useless
L943[15:19:46] <Forecaster> I guess you could use it to generate zips of the pack and then distribute them some other way but that's what the platform is for
L944[15:19:48] <Xal> what made you choose... php
L945[15:20:14] <Forecaster> it's what I use, what I'm familiar with
L946[15:20:37] <Xal> I would be wary starting new projects with it
L947[15:21:45] <Inari> It's fast to use and neat enough
L948[15:22:15] <Inari> Also literally everything supports it
L949[15:22:24] <Inari> Harder to find stuff supporting other frameworks, imo
L950[15:22:36] <Inari> Xal: But just in case, what would yuo propose? Asp? Ruby on Rails? Something else?
L951[15:22:43] <Inari> *just out of intereset
L952[15:22:56] <Xal> quite literally anything else
L953[15:23:13] <Forecaster> Node
L954[15:23:17] <Xal> not that
L955[15:23:20] <Xal> and not coldfusion
L956[15:23:26] <Forecaster> you said anything :P
L957[15:23:40] <Xal> i lied
L958[15:24:04] <Inari> xD
L959[15:24:27] <Inari> Silverlight
L960[15:24:32] <Xal> pls no
L961[15:24:41] <Inari> I found Silverlight pretty nice actually
L962[15:25:56] <Forecaster> I've never coded for Silverlight, and only used one or two applications and it seems like a fringe thing
L963[15:26:24] <Inari> It was. It also kind of died, so that doesn't help it
L964[15:26:37] <Inari> at least it had a a nice app-tan
L965[15:26:51] <Inari> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VwugRe8XGQQ/TKMumgTCvvI/AAAAAAAADBs/pQJ969kqx3c/s1600/silverlight-hikaru01.jpg
L966[15:27:23] <Forecaster> anyway, I like PHP, and I'm very familiar with it, so it's what I use
L967[15:27:26] <Skye> I wish I was cute x_x
L968[15:27:42] <Inari> Skye: Makeup!
L969[15:27:46] <Inari> And plastic surgery
L970[15:27:57] <Xal> Forecaster, is this some kind of stockholm syndrome thing
L971[15:28:00] <Skye> goodness, I am too poor
L972[15:28:52] <Skye> x_x
L973[15:29:06] <Inari> %pet Skye
L974[15:29:07] * MichiBot brushes Skye with Baby's First WMD. Skye recovers 10 health!
L975[15:29:07] <Forecaster> what does that even mean
L976[15:30:07] <Xal> people gravitating towards dynamically typed languages for webapps always felt weird
L977[15:30:22] <Xal> especially so considering how proper sanitization of data is such a priority
L978[15:30:53] <Inari> I mean
L979[15:30:59] <Inari> Theres filter_input :D
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L981[15:31:54] * Inari hands Skye a cat tail and cat ears ;D
L982[15:31:56] <Inari> There be cute
L983[15:32:08] * Skye nyans
L984[15:32:35] <jackie> ^^
L985[15:32:43] <Inari> ~markov jackie
L986[15:32:43] <ocdoc> Please wait ...
L987[15:32:51] <ocdoc> Xal: from a usability/security tradeof, linux probably is just the old powerpcs open too?
L988[15:32:56] <Skye> ~markov lewd
L989[15:32:56] <ocdoc> you can get a funny quote, came from reading about the loli effect
L990[15:33:05] <Skye> ~markov Inari
L991[15:33:06] <ocdoc> Enjoy your copper water throughout the tower :P im trying
L992[15:33:16] <jackie> try a markov for XDjackieXD. I don't think that ocdoc uses nickserv usernames and I just recently switched
L993[15:33:36] <Inari> %jumble ^
L994[15:33:36] <MichiBot> a just switched XDjackieXD. nickserv think I uses usernames don't and recently I try ocdoc that markov for
L995[15:33:45] <jackie> ~markov XDjackieXD
L996[15:33:45] <ocdoc> osx is when the power is out for weeks)
L997[15:34:18] <Forecaster> well you didn't answer my question so I guess that's that
L998[15:34:22] <Forecaster> I'll go to bed now
L999[15:34:46] <Inari> @Forecaster dream of a nice succubus
L1000[15:35:11] <Xal> ~markov Xal
L1001[15:35:11] <ocdoc> Please wait ...
L1002[15:35:15] <ocdoc> you'd need to write your own trust is 100x more and nobody wants to try spectre is confirmed to affect the child."
L1003[15:35:30] <Xal> ~markov ocdoc
L1004[15:35:30] <ocdoc>
L1005[15:35:39] <Xal> ~markov Corded
L1006[15:35:40] <jackie> Mimiru: is it possible to merge stat pages for my old & new nick?
L1007[15:35:41] <ocdoc> it's my primary communication methods `eject` and Firefox, it does have OC 1.6 because I don't want to write stuff
L1008[15:35:46] <MineRobber9000> /2/2
L1009[15:35:48] <MineRobber9000> woops
L1010[15:35:57] <Forecaster> jackie yes
L1011[15:36:16] <Skye> ~markov zsh
L1012[15:36:16] <ocdoc> act floats near the official OpenComputers channel
L1013[15:36:26] <Skye> ~markov Corded
L1014[15:36:28] <ocdoc> Forecaster: ...which has that many buttons and such using the IO library?
L1015[15:37:15] <Inari> ~markov Shuudoushi
L1016[15:37:15] <ocdoc> I'm the one who We Must KEEL IT should be able to get this damn function benchmark() local for MC, itself throwing the error
L1017[15:37:16] <jackie> Forecaster: could you merge mine please? :) (jackie and XDjackieXD)
L1018[15:37:25] <Forecaster> I can't, but mimiru can
L1019[15:37:33] <jackie> ah ok ^^
L1020[15:37:35] <Forecaster> I just know it's possible to link names
L1021[15:37:39] <Inari> wonder if Shuu will ever return
L1022[15:37:40] <Inari> :<
L1023[15:45:27] <Forecaster> the old menu used an array to define it...
L1024[15:45:54] <Forecaster> then a function went through the array and built the menu
L1025[15:45:57] <Forecaster> it was a mess...
L1026[15:46:57] <Forecaster> http://tinyurl.com/y7dlcgjb
L1027[15:47:19] <Forecaster> it was a pain to change the menu because I had to remember the syntax for it
L1028[15:48:47] <Xal> php seems like the wrong tool for just about everything
L1029[15:49:49] <Forecaster> you can say that but it works fine
L1030[15:50:22] <Forecaster> that monstrosity of a menu system that was that array was an error on my part
L1031[15:50:46] <Xal> how... do you deal with it? like php
L1032[15:51:33] <Inari> Calm down, it isn't exactly LSL
L1033[15:51:58] <Xal> I just feel he's going to be in for a lot of pain
L1034[15:52:20] <Inari> Whys that?
L1035[15:52:53] <Xal> because I've personally had to maintain shit written in php and many times the poor design decision are less the fault of the user and more the fault of the language
L1036[15:53:05] <Xal> I can't really say php does even one thing right
L1037[15:53:10] <Inari> But he clearly seems comfortable with it
L1038[15:53:21] <Xal> and that's great, it's a good skill
L1039[15:53:33] <Xal> it's just that I don't recommend starting /new/ projects in it
L1040[15:53:50] <Inari> If you know it, it allows you to get stuff done
L1041[15:53:58] <Inari> Instead of spending time to try and setup andlearn something else
L1042[15:54:03] <Xal> so does any other language with minimal effort
L1043[15:54:22] <Xal> "I know COBOL and other languages will take me time to learn so I'll just do everything in COBOL"
L1044[15:54:25] <Inari> Sure, but you don't know how to setup and use all given languages
L1045[15:54:36] <Xal> most of them are easier to set up than php
L1046[15:54:49] <Inari> I don't know
L1047[15:54:50] <Forecaster> as long as PHP can do what I need I don't have a reason to use something else
L1048[15:54:55] <Inari> So far PHP came preinstalled on every webhost I used
L1049[15:54:59] <Inari> Can't say the same for other things
L1050[15:55:29] <Xal> "as long as this spoon can dig this hole I'm don't have a reason to use something else"
L1051[15:55:45] <Inari> I think you're exaggerating how bad PHP is
L1052[15:55:46] <Arcan> what's so bad about PHP again?
L1053[15:55:53] <Forecaster> that's a dumb analogy
L1054[15:55:55] <Arcan> I know people who like PHP.
L1055[15:56:02] <Forecaster> I like PHP.
L1056[15:56:25] <Xal> PHP is a case study in how you can make almost every wrong decision when designing a language
L1057[15:56:36] <Inari> Eh PHP is mostly "bad" when you need security I guess. But then, other languages have th eir pitfalls too
L1058[15:56:49] <Xal> PHP is bad by almost every measure
L1059[15:57:17] <Xal> even basic language features don't behave as expected
L1060[15:57:25] <Xal> == is completely useless
L1061[15:57:25] <Inari> And yet it's somehow used so muhc
L1062[15:57:27] <Forecaster> none of my measures tell me its bad
L1063[15:57:40] <Forecaster> so that's great for me
L1064[15:57:45] <Xal> "I've never used anything other than a spoon so I can't see how a better digging tool can exist"
L1065[15:58:15] <Forecaster> another analogy that adds nothing
L1066[15:58:22] <Xal> if you want a basic rundown on the many footguns of php, google "PHP: a fractal of bad design"
L1067[15:58:29] <Forecaster> this is why I try to avoid using analogies
L1068[15:58:39] <Xal> okay, look at it like this
L1069[15:58:41] <Forecaster> I don't care
L1070[15:58:43] <Xal> what's /good/ about php?
L1071[15:58:47] <Forecaster> it works
L1072[15:59:01] <Wuerfel_21> it embeds into html pretty nicely
L1073[15:59:08] <Xal> so does any other language that don't have the same design problems as php
L1074[15:59:17] <Forecaster> if I run into an issue I'll find a way to work around it, like I would with any language
L1075[16:00:04] <Xal> why force yourself to use a language that will inherently cause more issues in both the short and the long term? better tools exist
L1076[16:00:20] <Inari> Xal: But again, you have to learn to use those other languages in the given context, and arrange for htem to operate. Things you need to learn first, before being able to use them. And PHP isn't /THAT/ terrible that comapring it to a spoon for digging a hole makes snese
L1077[16:00:38] <Forecaster> I've not run into enough issues to reconsider using PHP, so I'm fine
L1078[16:00:54] <Inari> Xal: But he isn't forcing hisself? In fact, it sounds like you're trying to make him for hisself to use something else xD
L1079[16:01:13] <Inari> (I can't ever recall if it's himself or hisself)
L1080[16:01:14] <Xal> More modern tools exist that are as easy (or easier) to get running than PHP, and are FAR easier to learn if not only for the fact it's easier to not shoot yourself in the foot
L1081[16:02:00] <Inari> Easier to learn is still more time than using something you already know. But still, wahts the suggestion? You seemed to reject 2 things after saying "literally everything else"
L1082[16:02:23] <Xal> use ruby or python if you want something that isn't drastically different
L1083[16:02:36] <Forecaster> they only ways I've shot myself have been poor design decisions I could have made in anything
L1084[16:02:46] <Inari> I hate python, might have to try ruby
L1085[16:02:47] <Forecaster> like using an array instead of classes for the menu structure
L1086[16:03:02] <Forecaster> I know some python, but not in a web context
L1087[16:03:17] <Inari> Not that I'm an avid Ruby fan either though from what I've seen of it
L1088[16:03:20] <Xal> The great thing about real programming languages is that they're the same in all contexts
L1089[16:03:33] <Xal> If you know any python at all, making a website in it is really easy
L1090[16:04:18] * Arcan hates python with a burning passion
L1091[16:04:33] <Arcan> (a mostly irrational hatred but I refuse to touch it nonetheless)
L1092[16:04:44] <Xal> I just don't understand how you could hate python but be indifferent to php
L1093[16:04:54] <Wuerfel_21> i hear ruby is sometimes used for web stuff
L1094[16:04:57] <Inari> I hate python because it doesn't understand the value of indentation being decoupled :P
L1095[16:05:31] <Forecaster> I'm completely indifferent to how a language works or what its quirks are
L1096[16:05:34] <Xal> Then use one of the many alternative python syntaxes out there
L1097[16:05:38] <Forecaster> all I care about is what I can easily do with them
L1098[16:05:50] <Forecaster> python is nice when I need to manipulate files easily
L1099[16:06:02] <Xal> python is nice because you can also use it on the web easily
L1100[16:06:07] <Forecaster> as in, iterating over files and doing things with them
L1101[16:06:42] <Inari> s/python/php
L1102[16:06:42] <MichiBot> <Xal> php is nice because you can also use it on the web easily
L1103[16:06:44] <Inari> ;D
L1104[16:06:55] <Xal> you must see the value in learning new tools
L1105[16:07:01] <Inari> Sure
L1106[16:07:05] <Inari> sometime you want ot learn new tools
L1107[16:07:08] <Inari> sometimes you want to get stuff done
L1108[16:07:23] <Xal> invest time learning new tools = get stuff done faster in the future
L1109[16:07:42] <Xal> invest time using sane tools and good architecutre = less pain maintaining in the future
L1110[16:07:47] <Inari> Or get stuff done now with what you know, and invest time when you want to do that
L1111[16:08:20] <Xal> All I'm saying is that the singular reason I can think of use start a project in PHP is if it's the only web framework you know
L1112[16:08:57] <Inari> Maybe
L1113[16:09:01] <Inari> Most web stuff I see still seems to use PHP
L1114[16:09:06] <Xal> not an argument
L1115[16:09:07] <Forecaster> it is
L1116[16:09:13] <Forecaster> and my server is set up to use it
L1117[16:09:23] <Forecaster> and it works, and that's all I need
L1118[16:09:30] <Xal> argh
L1119[16:09:52] * Xal goes back to writing webapps in haskell
L1120[16:10:01] <Inari> Xal: I mean, if you want to work with any other kinda web stuff, it is :D
L1121[16:10:13] * Inari goes back to writing webapps in webasm
L1122[16:10:40] <Xal> I wrote a webapp in haskell/purescript a few months ago
L1123[16:10:42] <Inari> Xal: Why not julia? :P
L1124[16:10:45] <Xal> it was a very enjoyable experience
L1125[16:10:47] <Xal> would recommend
L1126[16:11:00] <Corded> * <Wuerfel21> _goes back to writing a webapp in x86 ASM
L1127[16:11:11] <Xal> Inari: you don't get any of the benefits of static typing in julia
L1128[16:11:59] <Wuerfel_21> Julia seems neat from what i've seen. Easy distibuted computing is gud
L1129[16:13:01] * Inari goes back to writing a webapp in @Wuerfel_21
L1130[16:13:19] <Xal> an example of a footgun that can be prevent with a better tool:
L1131[16:13:22] <Wuerfel_21> DEBUG OUTPUT START:
L1132[16:13:32] <Xal> what would happen if you displayed a <p> with a user variable in it
L1133[16:13:46] <Inari> ?
L1134[16:13:47] <Wuerfel_21> APRIL 2, 1988
L1135[16:13:55] <Xal> and a naughty user came along and made his username "<script>BADSCRIPTHERE</script>"
L1136[16:13:59] <Wuerfel_21> HTML START:
L1137[16:14:04] <Xal> PHP does nothing to protect you from this
L1138[16:14:12] <Inari> Xal: Nothing, since you'd filter it
L1139[16:14:24] <Xal> yeah, but why the hell does php make you do that
L1140[16:14:26] <Xal> that's stupid
L1141[16:14:33] <Xal> look at a modern framework:
L1142[16:14:46] <Xal> based on the type of variable you include, it would automatically escape it
L1143[16:15:03] <Xal> include a Data.Text, get text; include a Widget, get html
L1144[16:16:06] <Xal> not to mention php has a bunch of stupid broken "filtering" functions eg. mysql_real_escape_string, htmlentities, htmlspecialchars, strip_tags, addslashes
L1145[16:16:32] <AmandaC> Xal: other languages don't stop you from shooting yourself on the foot with string interpolation either, so I don't see how that a php problem
L1146[16:17:04] <Xal> AmandaC: good languages/frameworks do
L1147[16:17:26] <Inari> So basically you ay you should use a PHP frameowkr and use echo_text and echo_html intead of echo
L1148[16:17:27] <Inari> :D
L1149[16:17:40] <Wuerfel_21> Code Block pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/oximipuhej
L1150[16:17:49] <Wuerfel_21> HTML END
L1151[16:17:55] <Wuerfel_21> DEBUG OUTPUT END
L1152[16:18:41] <AmandaC> I've yet to see one that does without the dev specifying that it's meant to be html, so how's that different to using a framework in php or one of the other "bad" languages
L1153[16:19:04] <AmandaC> Hint: it's not
L1154[16:19:09] <Wuerfel_21> Code Block pastebined https://paste.pc-logix.com/onogelemif [Edited]
L1155[16:19:18] <Xal> hint: if you're representing HTML as a string, you've done it wrong
L1156[16:20:17] <Wuerfel_21> if you're parsing HTML with regex, you've done everything right
L1157[16:21:18] * AmandaC wonders why she bothers, wanders off to watch more Tokyo ESP
L1158[16:22:17] <Wuerfel_21> `wonders why she bothers, wanders off` you stole my tagline
L1159[16:23:07] <Forecaster> %quote
L1160[16:23:08] <MichiBot> Quote #143: <LuMistry> I'm an AI, that's how I roll
L1161[16:23:19] <ben_mkiv> http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=955b4ba7f4425e30a29ddd196c120536
L1162[16:23:26] <ben_mkiv> enough lua for today -.-
L1163[16:23:48] <Forecaster> enough PHP for today!
L1164[16:23:58] <Wuerfel_21> neato!
L1165[16:24:02] <Forecaster> I realized that I forgot about the permissions limiting
L1166[16:24:11] <Forecaster> so the admin menu option was shown to everyone
L1167[16:24:33] <Forecaster> now that I've fixed that critical oversight I'm going to actually go to bed like I said I was like an hour ago!
L1168[16:24:50] <ben_mkiv> would be critical if the backend wouldnt care
L1169[16:24:55] <ben_mkiv> if its just frontend... meh -.-
L1170[16:25:03] <Forecaster> what
L1171[16:25:14] <ben_mkiv> about someone starting an admin action
L1172[16:25:49] <Forecaster> it was about the menu displaying an admin-only link
L1173[16:28:25] <S3> ok
L1174[16:28:31] <S3> time to play with Vexatos' selene
L1175[16:28:41] <S3> I just don't remember how to use it well
L1176[16:28:52] <Vexatos> Me neither
L1177[16:28:54] <Vexatos> :D
L1178[16:29:06] <Vexatos> just read the readme I guess \:D/
L1179[16:29:11] <S3> Vexatos: can I use it to generate Lua?
L1180[16:29:16] <S3> ahead of time
L1181[16:29:17] <Forecaster> (It was mostly a display issue since the page it linked to would kick you out if you're not authorized)
L1182[16:29:32] <Forecaster> and that part worked fine
L1183[16:29:41] <S3> I may have to do that for the boot file
L1184[16:34:25] <S3> do any of you know who stephen king is?
L1185[16:34:40] <Forecaster> stephen haw-king?
L1186[16:35:58] <S3> Okay then nevermind
L1187[16:36:59] <Vexatos> S3, of course
L1188[16:37:06] <S3> Vexatos: I found this
L1189[16:37:06] <Vexatos> on OpenOS there even is a compiler
L1190[16:37:06] <S3> http://king4maine2018.com/
L1191[16:37:12] <Vexatos> outside, just run selene.parse([[the code]])
L1192[16:37:18] <S3> oh I thought you were responding to stephen king
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L1194[16:37:19] <S3> nvm
L1195[16:37:34] <S3> hmm
L1196[16:38:15] <S3> Vexatos: oh yeah I remember using a makefile
L1197[16:38:17] <S3> for selene
L1198[16:38:57] <Vexatos> selene.parse produces Lua code
L1199[16:39:09] <Vexatos> of course it still depends on selene, so you still have to run selene.load() before that code executes
L1200[16:39:13] <S3> that's what I thought
L1201[16:39:16] <Inari> But
L1202[16:39:20] <Inari> How do I use selene for webapps
L1203[16:39:30] <S3> CGI!
L1204[16:39:36] <Vexatos> If you can use Lua you should be able to use Selene
L1205[16:40:07] <Vexatos> Cruor got it running in love2d and on a nintendo 3DS :P
L1206[16:41:19] <S3> heh
L1207[16:42:47] <Xal> selene for webapps: just pipe it to netcat on port 80
L1208[16:44:18] <Vexatos> S3, what are you running it on >_<
L1209[16:50:01] <AmandaC> %choose watch more or listen to podcasts
L1210[16:50:01] <MichiBot> AmandaC: watch more
L1211[16:50:07] <AmandaC> Hrm. Nah
L1212[16:56:37] <S3> ocvm?
L1213[16:56:40] <S3> Vexatos: &
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L1216[17:10:15] <Inari> %give MichiBot instant frames - just add water
L1217[17:10:15] * MichiBot accepts instant frames - just add water and adds it to her inventory
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L1220[17:36:19] <AmandaC> %tell Inari I know what anime that is! (Your quit message)
L1221[17:36:19] <MichiBot> AmandaC: Inari will be notified of this message when next seen.
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L1223[18:18:01] <AmandaC> %tell Inari nvm, I can't read apparently
L1224[18:18:01] <MichiBot> AmandaC: Inari will be notified of this message when next seen.
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L1231[20:21:36] <Mimiru> jackie, yes, there is even an github repo for it
L1232[20:22:11] <S3> Man that pissed me off
L1233[20:22:51] <S3> Went to a cousins place for dinner and she made us all hold hands and do prayer shit. You can do that at the table yourself, don't force other people into it that's just disrespectful..
L1234[20:22:56] <Mimiru> jackie, https://github.com/CaitlynMainer/OCNicks/blob/master/allnicks.txt you can make a PR for that
L1235[20:23:30] <Mimiru> I can also do it I suppose
L1236[20:37:19] <Xal> oh wow
L1237[20:37:31] <Xal> through the oc stats site you can see how fucked my sleeping is
L1238[20:37:43] <payonel> ~log
L1239[20:37:47] <payonel> %log
L1240[20:37:55] <payonel> :| i suck at these commands
L1241[20:37:56] <payonel> %logs
L1242[20:37:58] <payonel> %oclogs
L1243[20:37:59] <MichiBot> payonel: https://oclogs.pc-logix.com/
L1244[20:38:07] <payonel> %stats
L1245[20:38:07] <MichiBot> Stats: https://oclogs.pc-logix.com/stats.html
L1246[20:39:21] <Xal> yo payonel have you seen the botan library?
L1247[20:39:41] <Xal> it has a c++11 interface and does both general crypto and tls
L1248[20:58:09] <S3> HOLY SHIT
L1249[20:58:15] <S3> I typed 19 thousand things in 2016?!
L1250[20:59:11] <S3> I like these graphs
L1251[20:59:15] <S3> how are you making them MichiBot
L1252[20:59:17] <S3> er
L1253[20:59:22] <S3> not MichiBot lol
L1254[20:59:33] <S3> Mimiru right?
L1255[20:59:50] <Mimiru> scroll to the bottom of the stats page
L1256[20:59:59] <Mimiru> though my copy is fairly modified
L1257[21:00:14] <S3> oic
L1258[21:00:23] <S3> I thought it was all handwritten
L1259[21:02:04] <S3> Mimiru: it says some things were yesterday when they were today. IS that just from time zone difference?
L1260[21:02:14] <Mimiru> likely
L1261[21:04:27] * S3 spins around yelling, Wheeeeeeee!
L1262[21:37:28] <Xal> payonel: is there a way to get an optional argument with checkArg?
L1263[21:47:57] <S3> Xal in lua you can put an optional arg in and be like foo = foo or DEFAULT_VALUE
L1264[21:48:11] <S3> before you run checkarg probably
L1265[21:49:11] <Xal> this is for c++
L1266[21:49:21] <Xal> ocvm
L1267[21:51:52] <S3> aha
L1268[21:52:01] <S3> I steer as far away from C++ as possible
L1269[21:52:20] <Xal> it's a bit complex but was the definitely right choice for ocvm
L1270[21:52:38] <Xal> wow my grammar is wonderful
L1271[21:52:46] <S3> I think I would have gone with Lua
L1272[21:53:53] <S3> I don't have any bias to Lua, but it would have perhaps made it more portable
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L1276[22:25:26] <FLORANA> hey i found a probblem... the OpenPrograms program `ytdl`(youtube audio download for cassette tapes) erroring 403 for when requesting the site to convert the video over to dfpwm (and yes i am reporting the issue over on the propper github repo)
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L1280[23:26:50] <Kodos> I believe that's Magik's department, no?
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