L1[00:14:23] <Vindex> Zeek: develop locally
first - local web server, autogenerated wget script, which launches
program to be tested after update of files
L2[00:25:07] ⇨
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L5[00:42:50] 
<ZeekDaGeek>
Yeah that's what I've been doing it's super annoying, is it
possible to make a background program? Something to check a
gist/git and auto download?
<ZeekDaGeek>
Yeah that's what I've been doing it's super annoying, is it
possible to make a background program? Something to check a
gist/git and auto download?L6[00:51:00] ⇦
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L7[01:00:50] <gamax92> uhh
L8[01:08:10] ⇨
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L9[01:15:51] <Lizzy> %tableback
L10[01:16:01] *
Lizzy prods MichiBot
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L14[01:33:10] ***
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L20[03:02:42] <Antheus> I
forgot about siscoes
<Antheus> I
forgot about siscoesL21[03:02:46] <Antheus>
Discord
<Antheus>
DiscordL22[03:13:38] <Izaya> not much of a
loss
L23[03:18:58] *
Saphire blinks
L24[03:20:41] <Saphire> ...huh.
L25[03:23:09] <Syrren> https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
L26[03:24:34] <Saphire> ...where did kubuxu
disappear?
L27[03:25:34] <Izaya> tp[#tp][tp[#tp]] =
tape.types[ty] -- this is horrifying
L28[03:26:13] <CompanionCube> Saphire:
trapcc is weirder
L29[03:26:22] <CompanionCube> *
Syrren
L30[03:27:12] <Syrren> hahahahahawow
L31[03:27:23] <Syrren> I love how it's
called out as a VM-detector
L32[03:28:00] <CompanionCube> the
turing-complete MMU is unique isn't it
L33[03:28:35] <CompanionCube> newer:
https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/sandsifter
L34[03:29:25] <Syrren> sandsifter I've seen
already
L35[03:29:43] <Syrren> awesome, but also
horrifying
L36[03:29:45] <CompanionCube> also
apparently there's a repo for an ARM PoC that computes without
reading data
L37[03:30:01] <Syrren> (i.e. "how many
of my so-called spurious bugs are actually caused by CPU
fuckups?")
L38[03:32:09] <CompanionCube> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/occupy/WeirdMachines.jpg
L39[03:32:38] <Syrren> ...I'm not sure what
to think of this.
L40[03:32:51] <CompanionCube> there's
others too
L41[03:33:23] <CompanionCube> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/occupy/ComputingPower.jpg
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sergey/langsec/occupy/InputLanguages.jpg
L42[03:34:13] <CompanionCube> it's some
good photoshopping isn't it?
L43[03:42:32] *
Saphire pokes Magik6k
L44[03:54:30] ⇦
Quits: GuntherDW (~guntherdw@quadran.system33.be) (Ping timeout:
186 seconds)
L45[03:57:56] <Izaya> \o/
L46[03:57:58] <Izaya> tape partitions
work
L47[04:03:42] <CompanionCube> yay
L48[04:05:22] <Saphire> Izaya: yay
L49[04:05:29] <Saphire> Did you made a
partition table?
L50[04:05:34] <Izaya> less a table
L51[04:05:39] <Saphire> Or just dumb
"search everything"? o..o
L52[04:05:40] <Izaya> more a way to guess
where the next one will be
L53[04:05:47] <Saphire> So... blocks
L54[04:05:47] <Izaya> ie a partition has a
header
L55[04:05:56] <Izaya> it has a type and a
length
L56[04:06:04] <Saphire> Ah
L57[04:06:09] <Saphire> ...type?
L58[04:06:30] <Izaya> I use ! for bootable
partitions, d for generic data, t for tar
L59[04:06:37] <Saphire> Hmm
L60[04:06:43] <Izaya> so you read the type,
length, then seek the length and do it again
L61[04:06:56] <Saphire> When I was trying
to make that FS, I shouldn't have made root block be unique
L62[04:07:01] <Saphire> Or, more exactly,
root folder
L63[04:07:26] <Izaya> on the upside, I can
have infinite partitions up to 99999999 bytes long each
L64[04:07:40] <Saphire> Izaya: ...uh, why
is that a base 10 limit?
L65[04:07:47] <Saphire> ...are you writing
those in plaintext?!
L66[04:07:50] <Izaya> yes
L67[04:07:57] <Izaya> deal with it
L68[04:08:01] <Saphire> .__.
L69[04:08:16] <Izaya> that's like
100M
L70[04:08:17] <Izaya> it's fine
L71[04:08:40] *
Saphire quints
L72[04:08:44] <Saphire> ...uh,
*squints
L73[04:09:04] <Izaya> %lua
(99999999/1024)/1024
L74[04:09:04] <MichiBot>
95.367430686951
L75[04:09:11] <Izaya> 95M
L76[04:09:27] <CompanionCube> do tapes go
up to 95M?
L77[04:09:49] <Izaya> I think there's a
128M one
L78[04:09:58] <Izaya> could also only be
64
L79[04:10:09] <Saphire> Uh, sec
L80[04:10:12] <Saphire> I have
numbers!
L81[04:12:08] <Saphire> 1 minute - 240
KiB
L82[04:13:04] <Saphire> Izaya: what do you
do when your length is only three or so decimal numbers?
L83[04:13:04] <Izaya> https://a.pomf.cat/bdsbdl.png
L84[04:13:22] <Izaya> Saphire: it's 8, and
a fixed 8
L85[04:14:48] ⇨
Joins: Vexatos
(~Vexatos@p5B3C9D9D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L86[04:14:48] zsh
sets mode: +v on Vexatos
L87[04:23:07] <Saphire> Izaya: https://hastebin.com/zuqiquyici.lua
L88[04:23:29] <Saphire> Now you can have
not just 10^8-1 bytes, buuut... sec
L89[04:24:02] <Saphire> 256^8? I think,
yeah.
L90[04:24:30] <Izaya> tapes are 30M
L91[04:24:37] <Saphire> Don't care!
L92[04:24:39] <Izaya> 8 dec digits can do
90
L93[04:24:44] <Saphire> Meh
L94[04:24:59] *
Saphire shoves proper binary data into Izaya's face.
L95[04:25:33] <Izaya> https://a.pomf.cat/ihwqus.png
L96[04:25:56] <Saphire> What's
rrecord?
L97[04:26:03] <Izaya> read record
L98[04:26:10] <Izaya> calling them
partitions isn't entirely correct
L99[04:26:29] <Saphire> More like files?
:P
L100[04:26:34] <Izaya> well no
L101[04:26:37] <Izaya> more like files in
a tar
L102[04:26:38] <Saphire> Well, tape..
sections?
L103[04:26:58] <Saphire> Nah, tar has a
fixed header
L104[04:27:15] <Izaya> fixed header?
L105[04:27:17] <Saphire> So, more like a
very basic continous FS
L106[04:27:37] <Saphire> Izaya: uh, as in,
the list of things is in header and etc?
L107[04:27:57] <Izaya> like for the whole
tar?
L108[04:28:08] <Izaya> I didn't think tar
files had one header, just a header for each file
L109[04:28:47] <Saphire> Sec
L110[04:29:18] <Saphire> Oh, must be
confusing, derp.
L111[04:29:58] <Saphire> "...or Tar
mode in GNU Emacs. "
L112[04:30:10] <Saphire> I see what you
did there, emacs lovers!
L113[04:31:57] <Saphire> Izaya: are you at
least using binary for other numbers? <.<
L114[04:32:09] <Saphire> ...wait, derp,
that's only number there
L115[04:32:14] <Izaya> yup
L116[04:32:19] <Izaya> this format is
human-readable
L117[04:32:21] <Izaya> it's good
L118[04:32:26] <Saphire> Also, yeah, your
partitions look more like tar
L119[04:33:47] <Izaya> funny that
L120[04:36:10] <Saphire> funny what?
L121[04:36:17] *
Saphire shakes Izaya
L122[04:36:21] <Izaya> a tape format looks
like a tape archive :P
L123[04:44:27] <Saphire> ...I want to make
a file system o..o
L124[04:45:22]
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(~SentientT@ip5657cbb2.direct-adsl.nl)
L126[04:56:01] <Saphire> Izaya: so what
are you going to do with your not-quite-tar?
L127[04:56:45] <Izaya> basically, I want
to be able to unpack files to /tmp and then save them back to tape
on shutdown
L128[04:56:57] <Izaya> no real storage
neccesary
L129[04:57:02] <Izaya> just a tape
L130[04:57:41] <Saphire> Aha
L131[05:13:31]
⇨ Joins: viomi (~viomi@kurosawa.daviszone.org)
L132[05:14:10] <viomi> Hey all o/
L133[05:15:00] <vifino> Hot damn, I was
certain you died.
L134[05:15:15] <vifino> Hello,
viomi.
L135[05:16:37] <Izaya> hi viomi
L136[05:19:12] <vifino> Dammit, I
collected stuff to build a race quad with. I was pretty sure that I
was gonna get it below 200 euros. Now it's around that and I don't
even have any lipos. Or my flight controller.
L137[05:19:28] <vifino> ... Or my
VTX.
L138[05:19:41] <vifino> Dammit it's gonna
go above 300.
L139[05:21:07] <vifino> Whatever, my
birthday is in like 12 days, I can give myself a present.
L140[05:22:24] <Izaya> alright so, next
trick: write a thing that extracts files and dirs from a tape
L141[05:22:52] <Izaya> reading the record
table is easy enough
L142[05:22:55] <vifino> Side note: I think
every part of my setup will cost 300 euros then. My TX/receiver
costed that much, the quad/some accessories do and if I want a
proper fpv goggle, it'll be that much as well.
L143[05:23:05] <vifino> kill me now
L144[05:24:29] <viomi> I'm still mostly
alive, at least, @vifino
L145[05:25:07] <vifino> That sounds good,
maybe.
L146[05:25:16] <Izaya> mostly good, I
imagine
L147[05:25:25] <Lizzy>
vifino, can it be found on Amazon?
<Lizzy>
vifino, can it be found on Amazon?L148[05:26:06] <vifino> Almost none of it,
all on banggood.
L149[05:26:15] <Lizzy>
damn
<Lizzy>
damnL150[05:27:35] <vifino> Everything comes
from china. ESCs, carbon fiber frame, motors, etc..
L151[05:27:57] <vifino> Like, none of it
is available for grabs in (german) amazon.
L152[05:28:42] <vifino> And banggood
doesn't have it all either. I need to buy my F4 flight controller
at RMRC, not sure where I get my IRC Tramp HV from.
L153[05:30:33] <vifino> I could also
switch the Tramp HV with a TBS Unify Pro HV, but same problems
there.
L154[05:31:03] *
Saphire waves to vifino
L155[05:31:07] <Corded> * <Lizzy>
would have totally bought some of that for you
L156[05:31:19] *
Saphire bats weechat and waves to viomi this time.
L157[05:32:24] <vifino> Lizzy: I would've
preferred amazon as well, but there are only the motors on amazon,
and they are more than twice as expensive.
L158[05:32:40] <vifino> Same thing, but
jeez, the price.
L159[05:33:26] <Corded> * <Lizzy>
cuddles vifino
L160[05:34:06] *
vifino flops on Lizzy
L161[05:34:23] <Corded> * <Lizzy>
pets vifino
L162[05:35:07] <viomi> Oh, hi back Izaya,
missed your greets
L163[05:35:07] *
vifino flails at the costs
L164[05:35:14] *
viomi waves at Saphire!
L165[05:35:56] <Izaya> viomi: I did some
kinda cool stuff: https://a.pomf.cat/bdsbdl.png
L166[05:36:16] <vifino> I did already
spend an awful lot of money on this stuff. But the one thing I
didn't wanna save on was my transmitter. :v
L167[05:37:07] <vifino> Not that I regret
it, amazing transmitter, well worth the money two times.
L168[05:37:34] <Corded> * <Lizzy>
transmits more pettings to vifino
L169[05:37:52] *
Skye transmits @Lizzy to vifino
L170[05:38:08] <viomi> Oh shit, that's
pretty rad Izaya
L171[05:38:22] <Lizzy> if
that was feasable skye, we'd have already done it
<Lizzy> if
that was feasable skye, we'd have already done itL172[05:38:32] <Izaya> pictured: my
multitasking, multi-user OS messing with tape partitions
L173[05:39:50] <Izaya> records,
really
L174[05:39:52] <vifino> But meh.
Lotsamoneys. Can't cheap out on the motors much more, the esc's are
the cheapest supporting DSHOT1200, frame is cheap as heck, can't
save much on the VTX of unknown price, camera is the cheapest
still-branded-by-original-manufacturer ccd, props have no
name....
L175[05:42:57] <vifino> 50 euros for the
ESCs, 25 euros for the motors, 23 euros for the frame & PDB, 15
euros for the RX, 30 euros for the HS1177 600tvl ccd, 17 euros for
a usb 5.8ghz video receiver so i can actually see things, although
crappy and 10 euros for the props.
L176[05:43:14] <vifino> This stuff adds
up. ~_~
L177[05:43:47] <Lizzy>
:/
<Lizzy>
:/L178[05:43:53] <vifino> Oh, obviously
import tax'll have to be added to that as well.
L179[05:44:04] <vifino> It comes from
china, after all.
L180[05:44:24] <vifino> Lets hope they
break some laws.
L181[05:44:39] <vifino> Misdeclaring
value, sending as gift, etc..
L182[05:46:11] <Izaya> muahahaha
L183[05:46:16] <vifino> %tell Inari you
have some banggood coupons or something?
L184[05:46:16] <MichiBot> vifino: Inari
will be notified of this message when next seen.
L185[05:46:27] <Izaya> I've successfully
written and retrieved a file from a tape
L186[05:46:36] <vifino> Good job,
Izaya.
L187[05:46:50] <Izaya> so I guess now I
need to write a proper file format, dir format, and a function to
restore all of it in one go
L188[05:50:32] <vifino> Oh, thank god,
banggood supports paypal.
L189[05:50:42] <vifino> Whew.
L190[05:51:06] <Izaya> new functions for
the tape API:
L191[05:51:10] <Izaya>
tape.parsefile(str)
L192[05:51:15] <vifino> At least I know I
can beg for money with my paypal account, yay.
L193[05:51:15] <Izaya>
tape.unparsefile(path,str)
L194[05:52:00] <Saphire> Izaya: heh
L195[05:52:58] <Saphire> vifino: what are
you doing?
L196[05:53:24] <Saphire> Also, something
something aliexpress?
L197[05:54:47] <Izaya> well this will be
fun and/or horrifying
L198[05:55:47] <vifino> Saphire: Building
a racing quadcopter.
L199[05:56:02] <vifino> And no thanks,
it's almost always worse.
L200[06:09:21] <Saphire> vifino: racing...
quadrocopter?
L201[06:09:24] <Saphire> *quadcopter
L202[06:09:30] <Izaya>
quadrocopter...
L203[06:09:32] <vifino> Yes.
L204[06:09:41] <Izaya> flies by spinning
NVIDIA Quadros at high speed
L205[06:09:59] <Skye> who needs a
quadcopter when you have a dragon?
L206[06:10:05] <vifino> Izaya: Both are
correct, but the english world seems to prefer quadcopter to
quadrocopter.
L207[06:10:28] *
Skye gives Saphire a camera helmet
L208[06:11:02] <vifino> Skye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aU6O-hbhmI watch
that and say that after.
L209[06:11:02] <MichiBot> FPV FreeStyle
(sunset EXPLOSION) | length: 3m 19s | Likes:
1,335 Dislikes: 15 Views: 32,260 | by Johnny FPV |
Published On 26/6/2017
L210[06:28:28] <Izaya> I'm confused.
L211[06:28:40] <Izaya> It's showing the
second item in a table as 1
L212[06:29:29] <Skye> Izaya, off by one
error?
L213[06:29:47] <Izaya> That doesn't make
sense
L214[06:29:52] <Izaya> I'm using
ipairs
L215[06:30:32] <Izaya> k should be the
key
L216[06:31:50] <Skye> you storingt it
wrong and lua gettingt confused
L217[06:32:03] <Izaya> forgot to rewind
the tape x_x
L218[06:33:49]
⇨ Joins: Inari
(~Pinkishu@p4FC1E929.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L219[06:35:27] <Inari> boop
L220[06:35:36] <Inari> vifino: What?
L221[06:43:52] <Saphire> https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/6qnkg0/
huh
L222[06:46:14] <vifino> Inari: Banggood
coupons or something. If I am about to spend 200+ euros, I at least
wanna save where possible... Figured you might have something,
given that you probably order your toys there.
L223[06:59:57] <Izaya> \o/ can restore
files to /tmp
L224[06:59:58] <Inari> I tend to order
them from eis.de or amazon :P
L225[07:00:04] <Izaya> well, dirs,
anyway
L226[07:00:19] <Inari> If you mmean those
kinda "toys"
L227[07:01:15] <Inari> I don't thin I've
even ever heard of banggood before xD
L228[07:09:34] <Izaya> muahahahaha
L229[07:09:54] <Izaya> I have now restored
most of a filesystem from a tape
L230[07:09:56] *
Izaya hmms
L231[07:18:37] <vifino> Inari: It's
aliexpress but less shady.
L232[07:21:38] <Inari> Interesting
L233[07:21:42] <Inari> How's the pricing?
:P
L234[07:22:00] <Inari> And well I
generally try and use more known sellers for those kinda things...
since it comes in contact with sensitive areas
L235[07:25:51] <Saphire> Inari: ... Why
the hell there's an item with price 00.00?
L236[07:25:58] <Saphire> *0,00
L237[07:26:11] <Inari> It's cheap
L238[07:26:47] <vifino> Inari: On-par with
aliexpress, but less items. You generally lose a bunch of crap that
you wouldn't wanna buy anyways.
L239[07:26:56] <Saphire> ... Went the hell
they are so cheap?!
L240[07:26:59] <vifino> You also get
customer support.
L241[07:27:12] <Saphire> *why
L242[07:29:35] <Corded> * <Lizzy>
has cookies
L243[07:29:50] <Corded> * <Lizzy>
shares them with vifino
L244[07:31:18] *
Saphire is still bugged by suspiciously tiny prices on that
site
L245[07:31:57] <Inari> Which part of
"like aliexpress" did you not understand ;D
L246[07:32:14] <Saphire>
"glasdildo" is that transparent or literally glass?
L247[07:34:07] <Saphire> ... Though
converting to rubles, it's kinda a lot... No wait, nevermind. I
don't really know the prices for, uh, that.
L248[07:34:46] <Mimiru> most are made of
the same stuff as Pyrex... so "glass" but very hard to
break.
L249[07:35:27] <Mimiru> borosilicate
ftw.
L250[07:35:51] <Inari> Ah
L251[07:35:56] <Izaya> my haruhi backing
up OpenOS onto tape is slow
L252[07:35:56] <g> Safety first!
L253[07:35:58] <Inari> Saphire is actually
looking at toys XD
L254[07:36:15] <Saphire> Mimiru, wait, how
do you know that o..o
L255[07:36:34] <Inari> Normal knowledge
for a radioshack employee
L256[07:36:38] <Mimiru> ^
L257[07:36:42] *
Mimiru coughs
L258[07:36:50] *
Saphire coughs
L259[07:36:51] <vifino> Mimiru: that's
still glass, not "glass" :P
L260[07:37:03] <vifino> borosilicate
glass, i mean.
L261[07:37:10] <Mimiru> It's not your
standard window pane glass.
L262[07:37:16] <Mimiru> which is what
everyone assumes.
L263[07:37:21] <vifino> well no, but it's
glass.
L264[07:37:39] <Mimiru> Yes, which is
exactly what I said.
L265[07:37:46] <vifino> :P
L266[07:38:39] *
Saphire throws something transparent and elongated at..
Inari
L267[07:38:50] <Inari> L-lewd
L268[07:39:04] *
Saphire counts 5 seconds
L269[07:43:28] <Saphire> ..I expected her
to pick it up
L270[07:43:53] <Izaya> do you pick stuff
like that up?
L271[07:44:16] <Inari> I have enough toys
:P And not terribly interested in glass stuff
L272[07:55:05]
⇨ Joins: Dustpuppy (~kvirc@213.233.149.17)
L273[07:55:11] <Dustpuppy> lo
L274[07:55:20] <Dustpuppy> or hi
L275[07:55:53] <Izaya> even
L276[07:57:33] <Izaya> \o/
L277[07:57:39] <Izaya> my mediocre initrd
works
L278[07:57:52] <Izaya> I wrote a
filesystem to a tape and restored it
L279[07:58:09] *
Inari still hopes to someday find a store that has lots of clothign
she likes :|
L280[07:59:24] <Izaya> hm
L281[07:59:35] <Izaya> won't fit the stuff
to build a kernel in tmpfs
L282[07:59:43] <Izaya> you'll fit plenty
of other useful stuff though
L283[08:11:23] <Izaya> jesus fuck tape
archives sound obnoxious
L284[08:12:13] <Lizzy>
?
<Lizzy>
?L285[08:12:23] <Izaya> I archived OpenOS
to a tape
L286[08:12:38] <Izaya> then I played
it
L287[08:14:51] <vifino> but do you even
compression?
L288[08:15:36] <Saphire> Izaya: that's not
tape archive
L289[08:15:44] <Saphire> That's Lua files
in continious stream
L290[08:15:50]
⇨ Joins: techno156 (~techno156@137.154.29.33)
L291[08:15:59] <Saphire> So you're
listening to Lua code.
L292[08:16:01]
⇨ Joins: BearishMushroom
(~BearishMu@78-73-0-138-no159.tbcn.telia.com)
L293[08:16:13] <Saphire> payonel! Why does
OpenOS sounds like that? :P
L294[08:16:13] <Izaya> Saphire: it's an
archive on a tape
L295[08:16:23] <Saphire> Izaya: is it
compressed or plain?
L296[08:16:30] <Izaya> plain
L297[08:20:23] <Dustpuppy> automated ae2
prossesor production with only 3 inscriber ;-)
L298[08:21:03] <Dustpuppy> fuck the
youtuber who all using 5 in the tutorials :-P
L299[08:41:47] ⇦
Quits: Icedream (~icedream@has.streaminginter.net) (Read error:
Connection reset by peer)
L300[08:47:05] ⇦
Quits: Turtle (~SentientT@ip5657cbb2.direct-adsl.nl) (Read error:
Connection reset by peer)
L301[08:51:24]
⇨ Joins: Icedream
(~icedream@has.streaminginter.net)
L302[08:55:00] <MGR>
"Well, I was thinking if I had two screens, I could spread the
programs out across both of them. Then my computer would be twice
as fast, right?"
<MGR>
"Well, I was thinking if I had two screens, I could spread the
programs out across both of them. Then my computer would be twice
as fast, right?"L303[08:56:34] <Saphire> Dustpuppy: huh?
O.o
L304[08:56:49] <Dustpuppy> hu?
L305[08:56:54] <Saphire> How o..o
L306[08:57:26] <Dustpuppy> fucking
complicated setup
L307[08:57:50] <Dustpuppy> took it apart
again, because using too much channels
L308[08:58:05] <Dustpuppy> but it's
possible
L309[09:00:20]
⇨ Joins: KaMuMeow
(webchat@114-38-202-158.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
L310[09:06:42] ⇦
Quits: KaMuMeow (webchat@114-38-202-158.dynamic-ip.hinet.net)
(Quit: Web client closed)
L311[09:32:10] <Vexatos> now then
L312[09:33:05] <Vexatos> There's two
options for me now, regarding possible changes to the spoofing
card: 1) Make it receive every message sent through the network on
ports it is listening to, 2) make it receive every message sent
through the network.
L313[09:33:06] <Vexatos> :I
L314[09:33:33] <Vexatos> I'm not sure what
I should do >_>
L315[09:33:37] <Vexatos> Or if I should do
it at all
L316[09:34:39] <Xal> 2
L317[09:34:49] <Vexatos> but that makes no
sense
L318[09:35:04] <Xal> !?
L319[09:35:43] <Vexatos> modem components
all have an open() and close() function
L320[09:35:47] <Vexatos> for listening
ports
L321[09:37:22] <Xal> yeah but open() is
only for behaving modems that filter out messages not going to an
open port
L322[09:38:13] <Xal> tcpdump doesn't seem
to care if I'm listening on any ports :P
L323[09:41:37]
⇨ Joins: xarses_ (~xarses@67.218.117.197)
L324[09:44:26] <MGR>
Vexatos, so spoofing cards could receive modem.send messages
too???
<MGR>
Vexatos, so spoofing cards could receive modem.send messages
too???L325[09:44:33] <Vexatos> well
L326[09:44:35] <MGR>
modem.send(not spoofing card address)
<MGR>
modem.send(not spoofing card address)L327[09:44:37] <Vexatos> that kind of is
the entire point
L328[09:44:43] <Vexatos> of this
suggestion
L329[09:45:03] <MGR> I
would be disinclined to implement that, or make it a configuration
option
<MGR> I
would be disinclined to implement that, or make it a configuration
optionL330[09:45:20] <Vexatos> well of course
it'd be a config option >_>
L331[09:45:33] <Vexatos> question is
whether it should be on by default >_>
L332[09:45:51] <MGR> I'd
say no, or just don't implement that feature
<MGR> I'd
say no, or just don't implement that featureL333[09:46:02] <MGR> It
would make encryption pretty much mandatory
<MGR> It
would make encryption pretty much mandatoryL334[09:46:06] <Vexatos> Why?
L335[09:46:15] <Vexatos> Xal, I am
inclined leave the event in the same format as normal modem
messages
L336[09:46:23] <MGR>
Because all ur messages r belong to us???
<MGR>
Because all ur messages r belong to us???L337[09:46:46] <Vexatos> That would mean
you would know the message's source, but not the destination
L338[09:46:57] <MGR> And
the contents
<MGR> And
the contentsL339[09:47:02] <Vexatos> problem is that
then, everyone would start using the spoofing card and noone would
use normal network cards anymore
L340[09:47:12] <Vexatos> MGR: Which will
be encrypted because you aren't stupid
L341[09:47:29] <Vexatos> The entire point
is to encourage encryption
L342[09:47:30] <MGR> Yet
when I said you would use encryption, you asked why
<MGR> Yet
when I said you would use encryption, you asked whyL343[09:47:36] <MGR>
???????????
<MGR>
???????????L344[09:47:57] <Vexatos> That is not an
English
L345[09:47:59] <Vexatos> But
whatever
L346[09:48:14] <MGR> It
would make encryption pretty much mandatory <Vexatos>
Why?
<MGR> It
would make encryption pretty much mandatory <Vexatos>
Why?L347[09:48:15] <Vexatos> I have no idea
whether I should do this or not
L348[09:48:22] <MGR> Exact
transcript
<MGR> Exact
transcriptL349[09:48:40] <Vexatos> That
"why" was related to the question before
L350[09:48:53] <Vexatos> Why you would say
no
L351[09:49:03] <MGR>
Ah
<MGR>
AhL352[09:49:21] <MGR>
Because it could catch a lot of people flatfooted
<MGR>
Because it could catch a lot of people flatfootedL353[09:50:04] <MGR> Side
question, I know you can overwrite the tables for something like
computer = require("computer"), but can you globally edit
the table returned by modem = component.modem()?
<MGR> Side
question, I know you can overwrite the tables for something like
computer = require("computer"), but can you globally edit
the table returned by modem = component.modem()?L354[09:50:04] <Vexatos> hm?
L355[09:50:25] <MGR>
component.modem*
<MGR>
component.modem*L356[09:50:41] <Vexatos> Xal, problem is
that there is no way to obfuscate the sender's address without a
spoofing card, which means I would kind of force everyone to use
spoofing cards
L357[09:51:02] <Vexatos> You want to
wiretap? use a spoofing card. You want others not to wiretap? Use a
spoofing card
L358[09:51:05] <Vexatos> that's not
nice.
L359[09:51:27] <MGR>
Wiretapping wouldn't be defeated by spoofing cards though
<MGR>
Wiretapping wouldn't be defeated by spoofing cards thoughL360[09:51:47] <Vexatos> well, with a
spoofing card, you could obfuscate the sender's address
L361[09:52:06] <Vexatos> everything else
you can already do with a normal network card
L362[09:52:12] <Gavle> I
agree with Vexatos' idea
<Gavle> I
agree with Vexatos' ideaL363[09:52:32] <MGR> I'm
not sure of the profit to be gained by obfuscating the sender's
address though
<MGR> I'm
not sure of the profit to be gained by obfuscating the sender's
address thoughL364[09:52:55] <Vexatos> It is not my
idea
L365[09:53:05] <Vexatos> Like three people
told me to do it
L366[09:53:06] <Gavle> Same
difference
<Gavle> Same
differenceL367[09:53:24] <Vexatos> MGR: Well, if you
want to not only encrypt your messages, but also where they are
from
L368[09:53:55] <MGR> Yes,
but in what situation would that matter?
<MGR> Yes,
but in what situation would that matter?L369[09:54:09] <MGR> Unless
you physically accessed the computer, you wouldn't know where each
network card was
<MGR> Unless
you physically accessed the computer, you wouldn't know where each
network card wasL370[09:55:10] <Vexatos> ...fair
enough.
L371[09:55:53] <MGR> That's
why the spoofing card had limited applications for me up until
now
<MGR> That's
why the spoofing card had limited applications for me up until
nowL372[09:56:38] <MGR>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to use modem.send() to send a
message to the spoofing card, you would have to use its
"real" address, correct?
<MGR>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to use modem.send() to send a
message to the spoofing card, you would have to use its
"real" address, correct?L373[09:58:04] <Vexatos> right now,
yes
L374[09:58:13] <Vexatos> but that is what
I was suggested to change >_>
L375[09:58:20] <MGR> But
how????
<MGR> But
how????L376[09:58:27] <Vexatos> by simply making
it receive all messages
L377[09:58:39] <MGR> Well,
ok, that's true
<MGR> Well,
ok, that's trueL378[09:58:55] <MGR> I
still think it's a poor idea
<MGR> I
still think it's a poor ideaL379[09:58:58] <Vexatos> previous idea was
to allow you to change the address it listens to
L380[09:59:05] <Vexatos> but that wouldn't
change much at all
L381[09:59:15] <Vexatos> Why is it a poor
idea?
L382[09:59:24] <MGR> I
would not be amiss to that previous idea
<MGR> I
would not be amiss to that previous ideaL383[09:59:34] <Vexatos> that previous
idea has no point at all though
L384[09:59:40] <Vexatos> it would not
change one single thing
L385[09:59:43] <Vexatos> so I'd rather
not
L386[09:59:52] <MGR> It's a
poor idea because it forces encryption implementation onto people
if they want to transfer anything important.
<MGR> It's a
poor idea because it forces encryption implementation onto people
if they want to transfer anything important.L387[10:00:03] <Xal> that's sorta the
entire point
L388[10:00:08] <Vexatos> isn't that a good
thing?
L389[10:00:36] <Vexatos> remember,
receiving _everything_ also has the potential for a lot of
noise
L390[10:00:51] <Vexatos> and additionally
you cannot tell who was supposed to receive the message
L391[10:00:55] <MGR> I
can't see how forcing encryption is a good idea
<MGR> I
can't see how forcing encryption is a good ideaL392[10:01:12] <MGR> Also,
noise can be filtered
<MGR> Also,
noise can be filteredL393[10:01:15] <Vexatos> yes
L394[10:01:21] <Vexatos> noone forces you
to encrypt
L395[10:01:39] <MGR> Yeah,
but you're in a "do it or bad things" situation
<MGR> Yeah,
but you're in a "do it or bad things" situationL396[10:01:40] <Vexatos> why would a
message telling a drone to go left need to be encrypted
L397[10:02:02] <Oggymot>
Hello, how far can modem broadcast message wia cabel?
<Oggymot>
Hello, how far can modem broadcast message wia cabel?L398[10:02:14] <MGR>
@Oggymot Infinite distances, but not sure about chunkloading
<MGR>
@Oggymot Infinite distances, but not sure about chunkloadingL399[10:02:38] <Oggymot>
@MGR so I must place ChunkLoader?
<Oggymot>
@MGR so I must place ChunkLoader?L400[10:02:40] <MGR>
Vexatos, because that could be pieced together, also I'm not saying
EVERYTHING needs to be encrypted, but anything of importance would
need to be
<MGR>
Vexatos, because that could be pieced together, also I'm not saying
EVERYTHING needs to be encrypted, but anything of importance would
need to beL401[10:02:59] <MGR>
@Oggymot I'm not sure, if someone else could confirm/deny?
<MGR>
@Oggymot I'm not sure, if someone else could confirm/deny?L402[10:04:00] <Oggymot>
Ah, okay. Anybody else know how far can modem broadcast message via
cabel? If chunkloader needed?
<Oggymot>
Ah, okay. Anybody else know how far can modem broadcast message via
cabel? If chunkloader needed?L403[10:04:19] <Xal> MGR: encryption is
incredibly easy to implement. It wouldn't take much to mitigate
most malicious attempts to sniff network traffic
L404[10:04:41] <MGR>
@Oggymot The distance is infinite
<MGR>
@Oggymot The distance is infiniteL405[10:05:02] <MGR> Xal,
doubtful, but not implausible
<MGR> Xal,
doubtful, but not implausibleL406[10:05:20] <Oggymot>
Ah, then is chunkloader needed, anyone knows?
<Oggymot>
Ah, then is chunkloader needed, anyone knows?L407[10:05:38] <Xal> MGR: doubtful?
L408[10:05:51] <MGR> I
doubt it's "incredibly easy"
<MGR> I
doubt it's "incredibly easy"L409[10:06:26] <Xal> RC4 is about 4 lines
of code
L410[10:06:40] <MGR> Also,
many modern encryption techniques could be limited by CPU
constraints
<MGR> Also,
many modern encryption techniques could be limited by CPU
constraintsL411[10:06:46] <MGR> Has
RC4 been broken?
<MGR> Has
RC4 been broken?L412[10:06:54] <Xal> for poor
implementations, yes
L413[10:06:56] <MGR> It
has
<MGR> It
hasL414[10:07:23] <MGR> Then
it would not be suitable
<MGR> Then
it would not be suitableL415[10:07:45] <Xal> MGR: it would be
suitable
L416[10:08:16] <Xal> I'm assuming you
aren't going to be encrypting 2^34 ciphertexts with the same
key
L417[10:08:30] <MGR> If
it's been broken, then it is not suitable
<MGR> If
it's been broken, then it is not suitableL418[10:08:42] <Xal> MGR: define
broken
L420[10:10:16] <MGR>
"While remarkable for its simplicity and speed in software,
multiple vulnerabilities have been discovered in RC4, rendering it
insecure." -- page opening
<MGR>
"While remarkable for its simplicity and speed in software,
multiple vulnerabilities have been discovered in RC4, rendering it
insecure." -- page openingL421[10:11:14] <Xal> MGR: that's a
one-sentence summary of over a decade of cryptanalysis
L422[10:11:19] <Xal> "It is
especially vulnerable when the beginning of the output keystream is
not discarded, or when nonrandom or related keys are
used."
L423[10:11:33] <Xal> if you're encrypting
your OC communications, you're fine :P
L424[10:12:07] <Vexatos> the real question
is whether it makes sense
L425[10:12:13] <Vexatos> It's just another
layer of hassle
L426[10:12:22] <Xal> it does make sense!
it's fun :D
L427[10:12:26] <Vexatos> as you said, one
can basically make it uncrackable again with four lines of
code
L428[10:12:33] <Vexatos> which just adds
hassle, and little else
L429[10:13:02] <Xal> to be honest, we
won't really know what sort of dynamic is introduces until it's
tested on a server with a significant number of players
L430[10:13:06] <MGR> Xal, I
know of ways to make it trivially easy to export the communications
to modern computers with several orders of magnitude more
power
<MGR> Xal, I
know of ways to make it trivially easy to export the communications
to modern computers with several orders of magnitude more
powerL431[10:13:21] <MGR>
Forcibly implmented encryption is not "fun"
<MGR>
Forcibly implmented encryption is not "fun"L432[10:13:26] <MGR> At
least, for non-masochists
<MGR> At
least, for non-masochistsL433[10:13:27] <Xal> MGR: that ain't gonna
help you break rc4
L434[10:13:41] <MGR> It's
been broken though
<MGR> It's
been broken thoughL435[10:13:50] <Xal> MGR: define
broken
L436[10:14:00] <MGR> I
don't do recursion
<MGR> I
don't do recursionL437[10:14:38] <Xal> if I send you some
rc4 output you'll be able to break it?
L438[10:15:05] <MGR>
Possibly, if I was willing to invest time and effort into it
<MGR>
Possibly, if I was willing to invest time and effort into itL439[10:15:28] <Xal> MGR: lol no
L440[10:15:40] <Xal> not unless it's an
extremely large amount of ciphertext
L441[10:15:46] <MGR>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<MGR>
¯\_(ツ)_/¯L442[10:16:24] <MGR> I also
doubt it's "4 lines of code"
<MGR> I also
doubt it's "4 lines of code"L443[10:16:40] <Xal> if you're that
allergic to rc4, use xxtea
L444[10:17:21] <MGR> That
can also be broken if you make a lot of queries
<MGR> That
can also be broken if you make a lot of queriesL445[10:17:28] <Xal> i = (i + 1) %
256
L446[10:17:29] <Xal> j = (j + S[i]) %
256
L447[10:17:29] <Xal> S[i], S[j] = S[j],
S[i]
L448[10:17:31] <Xal> K = S[(S[i] + S[j]) %
256]
L449[10:17:33] <Xal> there's your
rc4
L450[10:17:35] <Xal> in python
L451[10:17:38] <Xal> 4 lines
L452[10:17:42] <MGR> This
isn't python though
<MGR> This
isn't python thoughL453[10:18:12] <Xal> it's valid lua as
well
L454[10:18:31] <MGR> What
is S, i, and j?
<MGR> What
is S, i, and j?L455[10:18:57] <Xal> two counters and the
state array
L456[10:19:06] <Xal> to be initialized as
you please
L457[10:19:21] <MGR> That's
outside of those 4 lines of code though ?
<MGR> That's
outside of those 4 lines of code though ?L458[10:19:34] <S3> so
L459[10:19:37] <MGR> Yes,
I'm very petty
<MGR> Yes,
I'm very pettyL460[10:19:41] <Xal> incredibly
L461[10:19:57] <S3> started reading a cool
boo
L462[10:19:59] <S3> book*
L463[10:20:04] <S3> it's a book about
programming
L464[10:20:21]
⇨ Joins: Nathan1852
(~Nathan185@HSI-KBW-37-209-119-18.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
L465[10:20:25] <MGR> Xal,
in a less petty way, you'd also have the surrounding lines of code
that take that, and implement it into modem messages
<MGR> Xal,
in a less petty way, you'd also have the surrounding lines of code
that take that, and implement it into modem messagesL466[10:20:27] <S3> and it doesn't
introduce assigning values to a variable until page 250
something.
L467[10:20:44] <S3> in which case all hell
breaks loose at that point
L468[10:20:48] <S3> and programs become
unstable
L469[10:23:06] <Xal> MGR: look, if you're
so afraid of learning about basic crypto and having fun, you can
just use the data card
L470[10:24:24] <MGR> I've
implemented my own terrible encryption algorithm; don't use it it's
terrible. However, forcing encryption on people is not fun
<MGR> I've
implemented my own terrible encryption algorithm; don't use it it's
terrible. However, forcing encryption on people is not funL471[10:24:44] <MGR>
Forcing people to use the data card in all of their machines is not
fun, nor is it even always possible due to case space limits
<MGR>
Forcing people to use the data card in all of their machines is not
fun, nor is it even always possible due to case space limitsL472[10:27:33] <S3> MGR: There are
exceptions to that
L473[10:27:43] <S3> my compressed EEPROM
program
L474[10:27:45] <MGR>
Exceptions to what?
<MGR>
Exceptions to what?L475[10:27:47] <S3> needs a data card
:D
L476[10:28:01] <S3> perfectly normal
reason to require a data card
L477[10:28:33] <MGR> Yes,
but people are choosing to use your compressed EEPROM program, and
know it going in
<MGR> Yes,
but people are choosing to use your compressed EEPROM program, and
know it going inL478[10:31:21] <S3> right
L479[10:31:25] <S3> hence exception
L480[10:31:38] <S3> btw
L481[10:31:49] <S3> I'm working on making
an AST VM EEPROM for OC
L482[10:32:03] <MGR> You're
not forcing people to use it in all their machines though
<MGR> You're
not forcing people to use it in all their machines thoughL483[10:32:10] <S3> right
L484[10:32:18] <S3> to be fair..
L485[10:32:39] <S3> I don't see why the
data card is seperate sometimes
L486[10:32:41] <Xal> MGR: this change
wouldn't /only/ serve to encourage encryption
L487[10:32:52] <Xal> it would also allow
the crwation of custom network hardware!
L488[10:33:05] <MGR>
/s/encourage/force
<MGR>
/s/encourage/forceL489[10:33:06] <S3> what change now?
L490[10:33:20] <MGR> Also,
I'm not sure what you mean by your second statement
<MGR> Also,
I'm not sure what you mean by your second statementL491[10:33:32] <Xal> MGR: you could make
custom switches and routers
L492[10:33:51] <Xal> by allow spoofing
cards to intercept messages, you could catch them and route them
around how you like
L493[10:33:52] <MGR> S3,
exatoos is talking about allowing spoofing cards to read every
message on the network
<MGR> S3,
exatoos is talking about allowing spoofing cards to read every
message on the networkL494[10:34:08] <MGR> You
could also switch to a higher level protocol, which solves all
that
<MGR> You
could also switch to a higher level protocol, which solves all
thatL495[10:34:27] <S3> mgr: that wuld be
useful for broadcast fidelity hubs
L496[10:34:31] <Xal> MGR: that's not the
point
L497[10:34:53] <Xal> the point is being
able to bridge regular network messages across some other
medium
L498[10:35:04] <S3> you can do that
already
L499[10:35:04] <Xal> so that computers can
communicate over it transparently
L500[10:35:30] <MGR> S3,
what?
<MGR> S3,
what?L501[10:35:44] <MGR> Xal,
across what? Redstone?
<MGR> Xal,
across what? Redstone?L502[10:35:45] <S3> reading modem messages
of other computers on the network cables?
L503[10:36:11] <Xal> MGR: across pidgeon
carriers, if I so desire
L504[10:36:22] <S3> 1394 eh
L505[10:36:29] <S3> or was it 1149
L506[10:36:42] <S3> 1149
L507[10:36:49] <MGR> S3,
yeah, but that's a big privacy invasion
<MGR> S3,
yeah, but that's a big privacy invasionL508[10:37:03] <MGR> Xal, I
guess, but that can be done with massive privacy concerns
<MGR> Xal, I
guess, but that can be done with massive privacy concernsL509[10:37:10] <S3> oh who cares about
privacy
L510[10:37:11] <Xal> that's the
point
L511[10:37:19] <S3> it's frigging
minecraft
L512[10:37:21] <MGR> S3,
people
<MGR> S3,
peopleL513[10:37:26] <Xal> what's so important
in your network messages you aren't willing to invest 5 minutes to
encrypt
L514[10:37:47] <MGR> I am
certain that employing an encryption system would take more than 5
minutes
<MGR> I am
certain that employing an encryption system would take more than 5
minutesL515[10:38:02] <Xal> I can do it in five
minutes for you, if you'd like
L516[10:38:13] <Xal> and most of all, it
would be a wonderful learning experience!
L517[10:38:36] <MGR> I can
have a networking setup for you on my server ready tomorrow, 3
hours past this time (probably)
<MGR> I can
have a networking setup for you on my server ready tomorrow, 3
hours past this time (probably)L518[10:38:54] <S3> mgr just xor every bit
pair
L519[10:39:08] <MGR> That's
not secure
<MGR> That's
not secureL520[10:39:16] <S3> but nobody cares
L521[10:39:24] <MGR> We
care
<MGR> We
careL522[10:39:26] <S3> why
L523[10:39:32] <gamax92> yo cores
L524[10:39:40] <gamax92> cool the fuck
down, get off of 65C
L525[10:39:52] <S3> lol
L526[10:39:58] <MGR>
Because certain information must be secured
<MGR>
Because certain information must be securedL527[10:40:04] <S3> like what
L528[10:40:13] <gamax92> That's the
highest I've ever seen it before
L529[10:40:14] <S3> it's Minecraft
L530[10:40:22] <vifino> S3: He needs more
buzzwords, obviously.
L531[10:40:24] <MGR> Lena's
subnet, etc.
<MGR> Lena's
subnet, etc.L532[10:40:25] <gamax92> this program must
be a super cpu utilizer
L533[10:40:39] <MGR>
Buzzword usage is not intended
<MGR>
Buzzword usage is not intendedL534[10:40:44] <S3> gamax92: it's 65C
where you are?
L535[10:40:59] <gamax92> S3:
"cores"
L536[10:41:03] <S3> OHHH
L537[10:41:06] <S3> I was like WHAT
THE
L538[10:41:07] <gamax92>
"cpu"
L539[10:41:20] <S3> I pictured everybody
where you are as living in your basement
L540[10:41:20] <S3> lol
L541[10:41:29] <S3> where its not
hot
L542[10:44:11] <gamax92> I found a
transcription alignment program (had to use it through
docker)
L543[10:44:54] <S3> gross
L544[10:44:55] <gamax92> so now I can have
precise timing information of each word (also goes down to phonetic
but I don't need it)
L545[10:45:19] <gamax92> S3: it's because
the software is written for python 2
L546[10:45:44] <S3> most systems come with
both 2 and 3
L547[10:46:06] <Xal> gamax92: what's your
opinion on allowing the spoofing card to intercept
modem.send()
L548[10:46:33] <gamax92> S3: but it can't
handle default not being 2
L549[10:46:35] <gamax92> for some
reason.
L550[10:46:41] <S3> Xal: does the spoof
card allow you to send raw octet data onto the network?
L551[10:47:12] <MGR> It has
the same capabilities as a network card
<MGR> It has
the same capabilities as a network cardL552[10:47:13] <S3> gamax92: this is one
reason I hate Python
L553[10:47:16] <S3> it's a mess to make
happy
L554[10:47:55] <gamax92> the issue here is
literally nothing to do with python
L555[10:49:26] <gamax92> it would be like
having lua 5.1 and 5.2 installed, 5.2 as default, program instead
of trying to pull itself up on the installed 5.1, complains that
not 5.1 is default
L556[10:50:10] <S3> Lua is also a
pita
L557[10:50:15] <Xal> why?
L558[11:01:23] <vifino> Because S3 is
weird.
L559[11:03:58] <MGR> True,
but that's not exactly rare around here
<MGR> True,
but that's not exactly rare around hereL560[11:23:03] <S3> vifino: why not?
L561[11:34:11] <Xal> S3 why are lua &
python pains?
L562[11:34:38]
⇨ Joins: SquidDev
(~SquidDev@host86-153-249-65.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
L563[11:34:54] <S3> Xal: getting scripts
to play nicely accross systems is awful
L564[11:35:24] <S3> handling modules and
ensuring that the underlying libraries and paths, etc are correct,
it's a real pita.
L565[11:35:54] <S3> it doesn't help that
most software that needs Lua uses one of the most annoying bits of
software in the world to find it too
L566[11:36:05] <S3> aka pkg-conf
L567[11:36:24] <Xal> that seems to be less
a problem with lua than a problem with your package manager of
choice
L568[11:36:36] <S3> pkg-config*
L569[11:36:44] <S3> Incorrect
L570[11:36:57] <S3> it's not a problem
with lua itself
L571[11:37:01] <S3> but I never said that
lua itself is bad
L572[11:37:10] <S3> but it also has
nothing to dow ith the package manager
L573[11:37:26] <S3> it's just the way the
community of people who use it have sort of dealt with it
L574[11:37:28] <S3> it's a mess;
L575[11:37:55] <S3> I don't have these
problems with Perl or Elixir or Javascript, etc.
L576[11:38:09] <Xal> oh, I see
L577[11:38:29] ⇦
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L578[11:39:06] <Xal> it could just be that
python/lua became popular before official language package managers
were pretty much a requirement
L579[11:39:27] <Xal> similar: c/c++
dependencies
L580[11:39:56] <S3> Not really
L581[11:40:23] <S3> and with Lua the big
deal is getting software to find it.
L582[11:40:36] <S3> management of
libraries for Lua, etc is very simple
L583[11:41:11] <Xal> eselect lua set
5.3
L584[11:41:16] <S3> Python has tried to
make modules a bit easier to deal with, but the solution was late
coming and is a bit rough around the edges, and still suffers from
problems surrounding 2.6 / 3.x compatability and selection
L585[11:42:20] <S3> back in the day module
installation for Python was a nightmare
L586[11:42:50] ⇦
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L587[11:43:04] <S3> Xal: It also doesn't
help that the majority of people who write in Python aren't very
good programmers. This can be the case with any language, but it is
a massive margin with Python.
L588[11:43:39] *
CompanionCube remembers bagel
L589[11:43:45] <S3> omg bagel
L590[11:43:51] <S3> what was so special
about bagel?
L591[11:44:02]
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L592[11:44:40] <CompanionCube> S3: MGR
learned why rolling your own cryptography/checksum scheme generally
doesn't end well.
L593[11:45:14] <MGR> HA HA!
BAGEL!
<MGR> HA HA!
BAGEL!L594[11:45:30] <Xal> yet MGR continues to
argue that /RC4/ is insecure ;D
L595[11:45:46] <MGR> I have
not encountered any problems with bagel, because I largely don't
use it anymore, because it was always bad
<MGR> I have
not encountered any problems with bagel, because I largely don't
use it anymore, because it was always badL596[11:45:56] <MGR> Xal,
I'm not positing bagel as a replacement for RC4
<MGR> Xal,
I'm not positing bagel as a replacement for RC4L597[11:46:41] <Xal> fun fact: the 'R' in
RC4 is the 'R' in 'RSA'
L598[11:47:11] <MGR> Cool,
but I don't see how that is relevant to our discussion.
<MGR> Cool,
but I don't see how that is relevant to our discussion.L599[11:48:32] <CompanionCube> RC4's
broken for any serious use. Good thing Minecraft isn't
serious.
L600[11:49:00] <MGR>
CompanionCube, I know that it's broken, but Xal refuses to believe
it.
<MGR>
CompanionCube, I know that it's broken, but Xal refuses to believe
it.L601[11:49:04] <Xal> it's not even that
bad when it comes to encrypting less than ~2^30 ciphertexts
L602[11:49:33] <Xal> MGR was arguing that
it would be incredibly difficult to encrypt your communications in
opencomputers
L603[11:49:40] <MGR> I did
not say that
<MGR> I did
not say thatL604[11:49:41] <Xal> but RC4 would be good
enough and it's about 4 lines of lua
L605[11:50:05] *
CompanionCube would be inclined to agree
L606[11:50:24] <MGR> It's
more than 4 lines to integrate it properly
<MGR> It's
more than 4 lines to integrate it properlyL607[11:50:28] <CompanionCube> you can
always use better stuff for high-security traffic
L608[11:50:33] <MGR> I also
didn't say it's incredibly difficult.
<MGR> I also
didn't say it's incredibly difficult.L609[11:50:43] <AmandaC> But @MGR can't
have people reading his fan-fic about the GE!
L610[11:50:59] <CompanionCube> lol GE
fanfic
L611[11:51:03] <MGR> Is it
fan-fic if I lead the GE? Also, what would the fan-fic even
be??????
<MGR> Is it
fan-fic if I lead the GE? Also, what would the fan-fic even
be??????L612[11:52:29] <AmandaC> %choose toast or
crackers
L613[11:52:30] <MichiBot> AmandaC:
toast
L614[11:53:25] <Xal> [08:13:47]
<Xal> if I send you some rc4 output you'll be able to break
it?
L615[11:53:26] <Xal> [08:14:14]
<MGR> Possibly, if I was willing to invest
time and effort into it
<MGR> Possibly, if I was willing to invest
time and effort into itL616[11:53:30] <gamax92> %choose oatmeal
or bagel or yogurt or milk
L617[11:53:31] <MichiBot> gamax92:
yogurt
L618[11:53:41] <MGR> Yes,
and?
<MGR> Yes,
and?L619[11:53:47] <gamax92> %choose raspberry
or strawberry or peach or vanilla or blueberry
L620[11:53:47] <MichiBot> gamax92:
vanilla
L621[11:53:52] *
CompanionCube wonders if Spritz would be a better
choice
L622[11:53:56] <gamax92> %choose
CompanionCube
L623[11:53:57] <MichiBot> gamax92:
CompanionCube
L624[11:54:04] <CompanionCube> why
L625[11:54:47] <Xal> %choose rivest or
shamir or adleman
L626[11:54:48] <MichiBot> Xal:
shamir
L627[11:57:30] <AmandaC> "RC4 is
broken, I'm not going to prove it or anything, just spout
bullshit"
L628[11:57:39] <MGR> I
cited an article
<MGR> I
cited an articleL629[11:57:57] *
AmandaC saw no such citation
L631[11:58:30] <MGR> If you
looked in logs, you would see it before
<MGR> If you
looked in logs, you would see it beforeL632[11:58:36] <S3> Xal: what do you think
of a new language for OC?
L633[11:58:36] *
gamax92 pets AmandaC
L634[11:58:43] <Xal> S3: fun!
L635[11:58:47] <S3> that compiles to Lua
ASTs?
L636[11:58:59] <Xal> MGR: broken isn't an
on-off thing
L638[11:59:07] <S3> Xal: I have two
methods to do this
L639[11:59:15] <S3> VM and
precompiled
L640[11:59:18] <Xal> what /isn't/ fun
about new shiny things for OC
L641[11:59:19] <MGR>
AmandaC, see quoted log above
<MGR>
AmandaC, see quoted log aboveL642[11:59:20]
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L643[11:59:24] <S3> I'm thinking of going
with the slightly slower VM option
L644[11:59:24] <Xal> precompiled would be
very cool
L645[11:59:36] <S3> they both have
benefits
L646[11:59:49] <MGR> Xal,
agreed, but I still don't see how that's relevant
<MGR> Xal,
agreed, but I still don't see how that's relevantL647[12:00:08] <S3> the thing is,
precompiled would work as normal, VM could start in the EEPROM and
provide AST oepraration for the entire machine as a system
L648[12:00:11] <Xal> you keep spouting
nonsense like "rc4" is broken without backing yourself
up
L649[12:00:22] <MGR> I did
back myself up
<MGR> I did
back myself upL650[12:00:25] <S3> wheras precompiled
would obviously be straight Lua code.
L651[12:00:51] <S3> Xal: it will likely
start as a VM and then I will make a precompiler after
L652[12:00:53] <Xal> here's Bruce Schneier
on recent RC4 attacks:
L653[12:00:56] <AmandaC> If you read that
section you just linked, @MGR, it states that it's vurlnable to
several attacks if you don't roll over keys properly.
L654[12:00:56] <Xal> "Is this a big
deal? Yes and no. The attack requires the identical plaintext to be
repeatedly encrypted. Normally, this would make for an impractical
attack in the real world"
L655[12:01:22] <MGR> That's
only about one attack though.
<MGR> That's
only about one attack though.L656[12:01:22] <AmandaC> Which is like
saying cars are vurlnable to breakdown if you don't put gas in
them
L657[12:01:37] <MGR>
Regardless, this distracts from my original point
<MGR>
Regardless, this distracts from my original pointL658[12:01:39] <Xal> MGR: I suggest you
read your citation before pasting into discord
L659[12:01:52] <MGR> The
proposed spoofing card upgrade is a bad idea
<MGR> The
proposed spoofing card upgrade is a bad ideaL660[12:02:09] *
CompanionCube thinks that RC4 is effectively broken given that
there's much stronger ciphers with fewer caveats
L661[12:02:37] <MGR> ^,
also, I did read the article's relevant sections
<MGR> ^,
also, I did read the article's relevant sectionsL662[12:02:58] <CompanionCube> but in
Minecraft, that doesn't apply
L663[12:03:10] <CompanionCube> because
no-one could be bothered to put in the effort :p
L664[12:03:12] <Xal> but what other cipher
can I do on a deck of cards? D:
L665[12:03:40] <MGR> If the
situation proposed arose, I would be forced into putting in the
effort
<MGR> If the
situation proposed arose, I would be forced into putting in the
effortL666[12:03:43]
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L667[12:04:10] <Xal> MGR: oh no! you would
have to write ~20 lines of re-usable code for RC4
L668[12:04:19] <MGR> I
would not use RC4 because it's broken
<MGR> I
would not use RC4 because it's brokenL669[12:04:23] <Xal> and maybe you would
even learn a thing or two about it :D
L670[12:04:29] <Xal>
""""""broken""""""
L671[12:04:34] <MGR> Also,
prove that it's 20 lines
<MGR> Also,
prove that it's 20 linesL672[12:04:46] <MGR> Xal,
multiple people are saying that it's broken, give it up
<MGR> Xal,
multiple people are saying that it's broken, give it upL673[12:05:24] <Xal> mgr please read the
wiki page
L674[12:05:51] <MGR> I read
the relevant sections
<MGR> I read
the relevant sectionsL675[12:06:09] <Xal> and what did those
sections say regarding attacks on rc4?
L676[12:06:12] <S3> Xal: there is one
advantage of my language that Lua does not have
L677[12:06:17] ⇦
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204 seconds)
L678[12:06:44] *
CompanionCube wonders about ChaCha20
L679[12:06:49] <Dustpuppy> case loops are
missin in lua
L680[12:06:55] <CompanionCube> would that
be useful?
L681[12:07:01] <S3> there's no globals,
you can't share variables. there's no such thing as inline closure
scope of variables
L682[12:07:12] <S3> Dustpuppy: case
loops?
L683[12:07:18] <Xal> darn you lua for not
having a continue keyword
L684[12:07:26] <S3> oh those
L685[12:07:27]
⇨ Joins: Turtle
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L686[12:07:27] <Dustpuppy> like in c ...
selct case
L687[12:07:31] <MGR>
"While remarkable for its simplicity and speed in software,
multiple vulnerabilities have been discovered in RC4, rendering it
insecure."
<MGR>
"While remarkable for its simplicity and speed in software,
multiple vulnerabilities have been discovered in RC4, rendering it
insecure."L688[12:07:35] <Dustpuppy> lelect
case
L689[12:07:51] <S3> Dustpuppy: you won't
need that in my language :D
L690[12:07:55] <Dustpuppy> have to make it
allways with if and elseif
L691[12:08:00] <Xal> MGR: insecure /when
used in specific, insecure ways/
L692[12:08:07] <Xal> use rc4 properly and
you're a-okay
L693[12:08:21] <AmandaC> "I read the
relevent sections" = "I've read the sections that I agree
with", no point trying to argue with someone who's made up her
mind, Xal
L694[12:09:05] <MGR> I'm
male
<MGR> I'm
maleL695[12:09:10] <MGR> his*
mind
<MGR> his*
mindL696[12:09:36] <MGR> In any
event, effective attacks exist
<MGR> In any
event, effective attacks existL697[12:09:44] <MGR> That
renders it unsuitable for my purposes
<MGR> That
renders it unsuitable for my purposesL698[12:10:27] <Xal> what's your use
case
L699[12:10:30] <S3> Xal: Even eater is
that I'm looking into using smart expressions
L700[12:10:31] <Xal> that renders it
insecure
L701[12:10:37] <S3> so that your code
resembles a syntax tree
L702[12:10:42] <MGR>
Securing Lena
<MGR>
Securing LenaL703[12:11:17] <Xal> does that involve
encrypting an identical plaintext 2^30 times without using a
nonce?
L704[12:12:18] <MGR>
Uknown, and I KNOW that isn't the only attack against RC4
<MGR>
Uknown, and I KNOW that isn't the only attack against RC4L705[12:12:27] <MGR>
Unknown*
<MGR>
Unknown*L706[12:13:19] <Xal> use a nonce for each
message (like you're /supposed/ to and throw away the first 256
bytes or so of output and you aren't vulnerable to any of the
attacks
L707[12:13:25] <Xal> literally read the
wiki page and you'd know
L708[12:13:45] <Xal> if you'd like to be
more conservative, throw away 3072 bytes of output
L709[12:14:03] <MGR> Let's
say that RC4 is unbreakable (debatable)
<MGR> Let's
say that RC4 is unbreakable (debatable)L710[12:14:16] <MGR> I
should not be forced to use RC4 in the first place
<MGR> I
should not be forced to use RC4 in the first placeL711[12:14:18]
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L712[12:14:39] <gamax92> you're not being
held at gunpoint with someone telling you to use rc4
L713[12:14:53] <Xal> guys AES is broken
it's unsuitable for my purposes
L714[12:14:54] <Xal> http://www.webcitation.org/68GTcKdoD?url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/cryptanalysis/aesbc.pdf
L715[12:14:54] <MGR> I'm
being held at gunpoint being told to use encryption
<MGR> I'm
being held at gunpoint being told to use encryptionL716[12:15:04] <AmandaC> ^ You're being
debated about it being "broken"
L717[12:15:38] <CompanionCube> Xal: now if
only Shor's algorithm was effective. Then MGR would have some
fun
L718[12:15:42] <Xal> by your logic, mgr,
the only cipher that isn't """broken"" is
a one-time pad
L719[12:16:05] <MGR> That
discussion is over
<MGR> That
discussion is overL720[12:16:41] *
CompanionCube agrees with not being forced to use RC4. Being forced
to use a single cryptosystem would be stupid.
L721[12:17:14] <MGR> Being
forced to use any cryptosystem in Minecraft is stupid
<MGR> Being
forced to use any cryptosystem in Minecraft is stupidL722[12:17:15] <CompanionCube> options and
variety are useful
L723[12:17:43] <AmandaC> Again, nobody was
trying to force you to use anything. You were being debated on your
stance that RC4 was broken
L724[12:17:47] <Xal> MGR: don't encrypt
your messages then!
L725[12:18:04] <MGR>
AmandaC, the discussion extended before RC4
<MGR>
AmandaC, the discussion extended before RC4L726[12:18:20] <MGR> Xal,
if I don't, then I have a very dangerous situation because of a
proposed change to spoofing cards
<MGR> Xal,
if I don't, then I have a very dangerous situation because of a
proposed change to spoofing cardsL727[12:19:01] <Xal> what is your data
that is so valuable you aren't willing to invest 5 minutes to
encrypt it
L728[12:19:26] <MGR> It
would take more than 5 minutes
<MGR> It
would take more than 5 minutesL729[12:19:29] *
AmandaC watches the loop repeat, wanders off to watch
YouTube
L730[12:19:38] <Xal> argh
L731[12:19:50] <Xal> mgr: just copy paste
my code if you would like
L732[12:20:08] <MGR> I have
seen no such code
<MGR> I have
seen no such codeL733[12:20:33] <MGR> Also,
it does not resolve the situation of being forced into using
encryption
<MGR> Also,
it does not resolve the situation of being forced into using
encryptionL734[12:20:41] <S3> Xal: also I intend to
support infix functions
L735[12:20:46] <S3> Xal: you might like
that
L736[12:21:13] <S3> imagine you have no
add function, so you write one, you could do add(1, 2) and get
3
L737[12:21:18] <S3> however with infix
functions
L738[12:21:20] <Xal> an s-expression
language with infix functions?
L739[12:21:27] <S3> you can also
optionally do 1 add 2
L740[12:21:32] <S3> no
L741[12:21:36] <S3> it could be
L742[12:21:40] <S3> but I'm not using
()s
L743[12:21:57] <S3> I haven't decided if I
will use s-expresisons or not, but if I do there won't be any
()'s
L744[12:22:07] <S3> itl make parsing
easier for sure
L745[12:22:20] <S3> (s expressions in
general that is)
L746[12:24:55] <Xal> not a fan of lisp's
parens, eh?\
L747[12:24:59] <S3> no
L748[12:25:13] <S3> but I like how s
expressions already represent the program in tree form
L749[12:25:16] <S3> so it's easy to
parse
L750[12:25:25] <S3> the syntax itself is a
recursive tree
L751[12:25:39] <Xal> you'll delimit each
list with indentation, then?
L752[12:25:58] <S3> If I use s
expressions, I probably will, yeah
L753[12:26:27] <S3> or I can do a more
traditonal expression syntax
L754[12:26:37] <S3> such as fn x, y ->
x + y
L755[12:26:49] <Xal> you should use
sexpsa
L756[12:26:52] <Xal> sexps*
L757[12:26:56] <S3> ?
L758[12:27:05] <Xal> s-expressions
L759[12:27:12] <S3> yeah in this style
it'd be like
L760[12:27:19] <S3> fn add(x, y)
L761[12:27:19] <Xal> I want an OC language
with lisp macros :D
L762[12:27:23] <S3> x + y
L763[12:27:36] <Xal> why are there parens
around the x, y
L764[12:28:02] <S3> they don't have to be,
but I might include them for parameter lists
L765[12:28:19] <Xal> how will you have
infix functions with s-expressions?
L766[12:28:23] <S3> I don't have a problem
with ()'s I just think they shouldn't be used for structuring the
syntax tree
L767[12:28:52] <S3> the idea is that if
you have the case with token function token and the arity of the
function is 2
L768[12:29:02] <S3> then it will
work
L769[12:29:14] <S3> in this case, every
operator will be a function, including _
L770[12:29:15] <S3> er
L771[12:29:20] <S3> including +, -, /,
*
L772[12:29:32] <S3> so 1 + 2 will be the
same as +(1, 2)
L773[12:29:52] <S3> this is nice because
now you can easily make your own operators
L774[12:29:55] <S3> :)
L775[12:29:57] <Xal> but how will you
determine if the expression ('x + 'y) is telling the interpreter to
call 'x on + and 'y or call + on 'x and 'y
L776[12:29:59] *
Skye sighs
L777[12:30:13] <S3> Xal: arity and token
types.
L778[12:30:14] <Skye> @MGR, if you're
using MC for serious purposes you are doing something really
wrong.
L779[12:30:34] <MGR> It's
not IRL serious, but it's MC serious
<MGR> It's
not IRL serious, but it's MC seriousL780[12:30:37] <Skye> There are already
ways to sniff data
L781[12:30:40] <S3> arity is the count of
parameters a function takes
L782[12:30:44] <MGR> If it
was IRL serious, I would indeed be doing it wrong
<MGR> If it
was IRL serious, I would indeed be doing it wrongL783[12:30:48] <S3> foo(x, y, z) has an
arity of 3
L784[12:31:25] <Skye> @MGR, the thing is,
it doesn't make an impossible thing possible, it makes a thing
that's possible but stupid into a thing that makes sense.
L785[12:31:44] <MGR> Please
continue this conversation over PMs
<MGR> Please
continue this conversation over PMsL786[12:31:52] <Xal> nah
L787[12:31:59] <Xal> just discuss on
#oc
L788[12:32:15] <MGR>
No.
<MGR>
No.L789[12:32:20] <Xal> yes :D
L790[12:32:33] <MGR> Legal
regulations prevent me from publicly discussing exploits
<MGR> Legal
regulations prevent me from publicly discussing exploitsL791[12:32:43] <Xal> lol
L792[12:33:00] <Xal> no they don't
L793[12:33:11] <Xal> and also just
lol
L794[12:33:14] <MGR>
Wrong
<MGR>
WrongL795[12:33:27] <MGR> Please
address all concerns to Gavle
<MGR> Please
address all concerns to GavleL796[12:33:38] <Xal> l o l
L797[12:33:57] <vifino> You mean your
other personality?
L798[12:34:41] <MGR>
Incorrect
<MGR>
IncorrectL799[12:35:00] <S3> Xal: there is that
issue of trying to connect that arity before the parse tree is
finished..
L800[12:35:12] <S3> and figuring out that
it is indeed an infixed call
L801[12:35:19] <MGR> My
other personality is not here right now
<MGR> My
other personality is not here right nowL802[12:35:23] <Xal> S3: what if you do
something like (f + 3)
L803[12:35:33] <Xal> both f and + take 2
arguments
L804[12:35:52] <Inari> I for one think
spoofing should be on by default :D
L805[12:36:00] <Xal> ^^^
L806[12:36:03] <vifino> You misspelled
"Factually accurate", but don't worry, I'm sure everyone
knows it already.
L807[12:36:16] <S3> Xal: right, f will be
tokenized first, if f has an arity of 2 then it should syntax
error
L808[12:36:23] <MGR> That's
a terrible idea, also vifino, you have no proof
<MGR> That's
a terrible idea, also vifino, you have no proofL809[12:36:25] <S3> unless you did
something like
L810[12:36:27] <S3> f(1, 2) + 3
L811[12:36:29] <CompanionCube> you could
always make it expensive
L812[12:36:39] <vifino> But I do.
L813[12:36:45] <CompanionCube> or limit
how many packets the card can sniff in a given period
L814[12:36:46] <vifino> So do a lot of
other people.
L815[12:36:48] <Xal> what about ((lambda
(f x) (lambda (y) (f x y))) + 3)
L816[12:36:49] <S3> Xal: unsure if I
should allow not using parenthesis for non infix
L817[12:36:50] <S3> i.e.
L818[12:36:52] <MGR> Unless
the operation consumes 1M RF per operation, it's not
expensive
<MGR> Unless
the operation consumes 1M RF per operation, it's not
expensiveL819[12:36:53] <S3> f 1, 2 + 3
L820[12:36:57] <S3> that would be
bad
L821[12:37:04] <S3> people would wonder
why things break
L822[12:37:13] <S3> so yeah I think for
normal calls I should require ()s
L823[12:37:19] <Skye> ~w user
L824[12:37:19] <ocdoc> Predicted http://www.lua.org/manual/5.2/manual.html#pdf-assert
L825[12:37:21] <Skye> ~w users
L826[12:37:21] <ocdoc> Predicted http://ocd.cil.li/api:sides
L827[12:37:25] <Skye> ~w useradd
L828[12:37:25] <ocdoc> Predicted http://ocd.cil.li/addon
L829[12:37:27] <Skye> uhhh
L830[12:37:31] <Skye> ~w adduser
L831[12:37:31] <ocdoc> Predicted http://ocd.cil.li/addons
L832[12:37:34] <Inari> CompanionCube: It's
computationally expensive to crack encrypted messages
L833[12:37:42] <S3> Xal: calling lua
functions will be easy.
L834[12:37:49] <Xal> S3: the example I
typed would have ambiguous parsing, no?
L835[12:37:53] <CompanionCube> Inari: yes,
but MGR doesn't want to bother with crypto
L836[12:37:54] <CompanionCube> so
L837[12:38:01] <S3> Xal: not if f had an
arity of 0.
L838[12:38:10] <Xal> but it's a
lambda
L839[12:38:13] <Xal> it has an arity of
2
L840[12:38:19] <S3> syntax error
L841[12:38:22] <Inari> CompanionCube: Then
he has to be fine with it being read
L842[12:38:37] <Xal> S3: but it's a
perfectly valid lisp expression
L843[12:38:43] <S3> Xal: oh I didn't see
the other one you put
L844[12:38:50] <MGR> No, I
don't have to be fine with that
<MGR> No, I
don't have to be fine with thatL845[12:38:57] <MGR> I
would disable it in config
<MGR> I
would disable it in configL846[12:39:30] <S3> so I haven't made a
decision yet on just how lambdas will work
L847[12:39:49] <S3> but itl likely be
something such as fn() -> body end
L848[12:39:55] <Xal> it was just an
example
L849[12:40:22] <Xal> how would you decide
between applying the first element in a list to the last two, or
applying the middle element to the first and last
L850[12:40:37] <Xal> if they were both
functions with arity 2 it's undecideable
L851[12:41:19] <S3> I don't think you'd be
able to write it that way, you'd have to re-arrange it
L852[12:42:10] <Xal> but how would you
partially apply something to + ?
L853[12:42:16] <Inari> @MGR Sure :p
L854[12:43:10] <S3> Xal: it's a good
wonder, and some languages have done it
L855[12:43:14] <MGR> While
I'm not always the most tech savvy, I do know how to read a
configuration file, as I've done it before Inari
<MGR> While
I'm not always the most tech savvy, I do know how to read a
configuration file, as I've done it before InariL856[12:43:23] <S3> I simpl saw it and
said, "That's how I want operators to work"
L857[12:43:48] *
Inari makes a mental note that MGR's software is
insecure
L858[12:44:30] <MGR> No,
but spoofing card changes would make it insecure
<MGR> No,
but spoofing card changes would make it insecureL859[12:44:46] <S3> Xal: you may be able
to make that decision only after handling precedence..
L860[12:44:47] <Inari> Because it doesn't
have any security of its own]
L861[12:45:04] <S3> which is weird because
how do you know the precedence if you've only partially built the
tree
L862[12:45:06] <MGR> Why
waste time if the system does it for you?
<MGR> Why
waste time if the system does it for you?L863[12:48:34] <Xal> S3: s-expressions
don't have precedence
L864[12:48:43] <Xal> that's sorta the
point :P
L865[12:48:57] <S3> you're right, but that
doesn't mean I can't cheat to work around some things
L866[12:49:33] <S3> the -only- reason I
care about s-expressions is just the structure part, not its
additional properties.
L867[12:49:46] <S3> I may not even use
them
L868[12:50:03] <Xal> the whole reason
s-expressions are popular is because of their perfect symmetry and
completely regular grammar
L869[12:50:35] <Xal> I'm afraid
introducing all of these syntactic irregularities would break these
properties
L870[12:50:35] <S3> yes, but I just care
about the parsing part. s expressions are much easier to
tokenize
L871[12:51:11] <S3> but like I said, I may
not even use them
L872[12:51:29] <S3> I'm not so sure I like
the idea of indentation or mass ()s
L873[12:52:17] <S3> unrelated, calling Lua
functions will be easy
L874[12:53:19] <S3> like Elixir in terms
of Erlang calls, atoms will be able to represent function calls to
Lua
L875[12:54:53] <Xal> any plans for
macros?
L876[12:55:11] <S3> yeah, not sure how in
depth though
L877[12:55:24] <S3> It could be something
as simple as basic macro expansion
L878[12:55:30] <Xal> lisp macros
<3
L879[12:55:35] <S3> sigh
L880[12:55:44] <Xal> if you couldn't tell
I like lisp
L881[12:55:49] <S3> heh.
L882[12:55:58] <S3> my goal isn't really
to create a lisp
L883[12:56:00] <S3> but
L884[12:56:57] <S3> Xal: I'm most
interested in advanced pattern matching
L885[12:57:08] <S3> complicated expression
= complicated expression
L886[12:57:44] <Xal> destructuring-bind is
all the pattern matching I need
L887[13:02:26] <S3> Xal: oh you just
wait
L888[13:02:35] <S3> pattern matching is
your best friend
L889[13:02:43] <S3> you'll never need to
use an if statement ever again
L890[13:04:32] <baka>
Question, does an custom architecture mod have to be on the client
and server side?
<baka>
Question, does an custom architecture mod have to be on the client
and server side?L891[13:04:43] <baka> or
can it also be installed on server-side only?
<baka> or
can it also be installed on server-side only?L892[13:06:25] <gamax92> if it does
anything like adding custom processor items then it'd also need to
be on client, otherwise server side only should be fine
L893[13:16:27] <CompanionCube> do you have
one in mind?
L894[13:21:38] <baka> Kay,
was not talking about new items. ?
<baka> Kay,
was not talking about new items. ?L895[13:21:40] <baka>
Thanks
<baka>
ThanksL896[13:21:56] <baka> Sorry
for the late response, was deep in IntelliJ
<baka> Sorry
for the late response, was deep in IntelliJL897[13:32:02] ⇦
Quits: SquidDev
(~SquidDev@host86-153-249-65.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) (Quit:
dinner)
L898[13:35:54] <S3> QNAP TS-453A 4-Bay
Diskless NAS Server - SATA 6Gb/s
L899[13:35:55] <S3> W T F
L900[13:36:00] <S3> DISKLESS? WTF?
WHAT?
L901[13:36:07] <S3> you on drugs
store
L902[13:36:49] <AmandaC> More likely:
Keyword spam
L903[13:37:36] <Skye> S3, maybe... it
lacks disks. BYOD
L904[13:37:40] <Skye> bring your own
disks
L905[13:37:54] <S3> yeah...
L906[13:37:56] <S3> but like wtf
L907[13:37:59] <S3> it's not
diskless
L908[13:38:08] <S3> it just comes with no
disks
L909[13:46:53] <scj643> I need to find a
web solution that allows customers to log in and edit a list of
comics
L910[13:47:36]
⇨ Joins: MalkContent
(~MalkConte@p4FDCF665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L911[13:53:06] <S3> wat
L912[13:56:57] <scj643> Where I work
people subscribe to comics and we order them
L913[14:01:46] ⇦
Quits: techno156 (~techno156@137.154.29.33) (Quit:
Leaving)
L914[14:10:53]
⇨ Joins: LaserEyeRemoval
(~LaserEyeR@47-51-43-210.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com)
L915[14:22:20] <Dustpuppy> comics are
nice
L916[14:25:56] ⇦
Quits: Nachtara (~Nachiebre@173-22-110-5.client.mchsi.com) (Quit:
Blue skidoo, we can too!)
L917[14:29:27] <payonel> o/
L918[14:29:59] <Dustpuppy> hi
payonel
L919[14:30:17] <payonel> Dustpuppy: hello
-- i got swallowed up by a bug in my ocvm code
L920[14:30:19] <payonel> very sorry
L921[14:30:20] <Dustpuppy> did you take a
look into my chaos coe?
L922[14:30:23] <payonel> it very much
distracted me
L923[14:33:25]
⇨ Joins: Jtk08
(webchat@ip-216-17-138-73.rev.frii.com)
L924[14:34:12] ⇦
Quits: Jtk08 (webchat@ip-216-17-138-73.rev.frii.com) (Client
Quit)
L925[14:34:36] <AmandaC> %choose br or
lr
L926[14:34:38] <MichiBot> AmandaC:
br
L927[14:53:11] <Oggymot>
Hello, is there any diffrence between switch and relay?
<Oggymot>
Hello, is there any diffrence between switch and relay?L928[14:54:15] <Michiyo> the switch is
depreciated, use the relay... Atleast I think I have that the right
way around.. :P
L929[14:54:39]
⇨ Joins: MalkContent_
(~MalkConte@p4FDCF665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
L930[14:56:55] ⇦
Quits: MalkContent_ (~MalkConte@p4FDCF665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
(Client Quit)
L931[14:57:14] <scj643> Anyone familiar
enough with WordPress to explain how I could have user login and
lists for them
L932[14:57:17] ⇦
Quits: MalkContent (~MalkConte@p4FDCF665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping
timeout: 204 seconds)
L933[14:58:27]
⇨ Joins: SquidDev
(~SquidDev@host86-153-249-65.range86-153.btcentralplus.com)
L934[15:05:38] <Inari> scj643: What
L935[15:06:59] <scj643> They login in edit
a list that has what they want for comics
L936[15:07:14] <AmandaC> scj643: why not
use something like a shared google doc?
L937[15:07:27] <AmandaC> or <insert oss
clone here>
L938[15:07:33] <scj643> We need one for
each customer
L939[15:08:07]
⇨ Joins: you12be4ever
(webchat@catv-133-095.tbwil.ch)
L940[15:10:03] <AmandaC> I thought you
meant for a shared office pool of buying comics in bulk or
something. For that, I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else in
here does either.
L941[15:21:26] ⇦
Quits: LaserEyeRemoval
(~LaserEyeR@47-51-43-210.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com) (Remote host
closed the connection)
L942[15:22:52]
⇨ Joins: LaserEyeRemoval
(~LaserEyeR@47-51-43-210.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com)
L943[15:40:05] <S3> trying to decide
between two named function styles
L944[15:40:14] <S3> with only one
difference
L945[15:40:16] <S3> do you prefer:
L946[15:40:24] <S3> fn add(a, b) -> a +
b end
L947[15:40:30] <S3> or fn add a, b -> a
+ b end
L948[15:41:06] <Vexatos> julia>>
add(a, b) = a + b
L949[15:41:09] <Vexatos> \:D/
L950[15:41:26] <S3> Vexatos: there aren't
any statements in this language
L951[15:41:35] <S3> so you have to know
how to end a function somehow
L952[15:41:46] <S3> which is why I had
end
L953[15:42:23] <S3> I will allow patter
matching in the params
L954[15:42:28] <S3> so you could do
something like..
L955[15:43:29] <S3> fn foo(:test = a,
{"name" => "vexatos"} = b) ->
FUNCTIONBODY end
L956[15:45:42] <S3> the idea is that you
could have 100 function foos in the same file
L957[15:45:53] <S3> and it would use the
one that pattern matches appropriately, or error.
L958[15:45:58] <S3> (if it can't find
one)
L959[15:46:01] <S3> Vexatos: ^
L960[15:46:50] <S3> but lambdas.. how to
make lambdas work..
L961[15:49:39] <Vexatos> so basically what
julia does :P
L962[15:54:19] <S3> aha!
L963[15:54:26] <S3> I have decided to make
syntax consistent
L964[15:54:30] <S3> Vexatos: yeah Elixir
does it too
L965[15:54:39] <S3> so a function is
like:
L966[15:54:49] <S3> fn (paramlist) ->
body end
L967[15:55:00] <S3> to define a named
function, no special parsing is required. you use define.
L968[15:55:02] <S3> i.e.:
L969[15:55:11] <S3> define add fn(a, b)
-> a + b end
L970[15:55:22] <S3> fn returns a type of
functon
L971[15:55:31] <S3> and define would be a
macro
L972[15:55:54] <S3> that adds a function
with an atomic name of add to the symbol table with the value
returned by fn
L973[15:55:56] <S3> LD
L974[15:55:57] <S3> :D
L975[15:55:59] <S3> PERFECT!
L976[16:10:42] ⇦
Quits: Dustpuppy (~kvirc@213.233.149.17) (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0
Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/)
L977[16:23:02] <LaserEyeRemoval> wait what
if multiple match
L978[16:24:54] ⇦
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(~SquidDev@host86-153-249-65.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) (Quit:
sleep)
L979[16:27:26] ⇦
Quits: Nathan1852
(~Nathan185@HSI-KBW-37-209-119-18.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de)
(Read error: Connection reset by peer)
L980[16:27:51] <AmandaC> It has been [0]
days since the last email-related ctrl-w accident
L981[16:36:01] <Inari> AmandaC: ?
L982[16:37:26]
⇨ Joins: Cervator
(~Thunderbi@2601:4c1:4000:1050:a812:4ed6:f060:fe7b)
L983[16:40:34] <AmandaC> Inari: I hit
ctrl-w to try and dismiss an email, causing my browser to close the
tab with my email in it. :P
L984[16:42:20] <payonel> AmandaC: i know
your pain
L985[16:48:48] <AmandaC> %choose invasion
or retreat
L986[16:48:50] <MichiBot> AmandaC:
invasion
L987[16:48:53] <AmandaC> blargh
L988[16:48:54] <AmandaC> no
L989[16:50:53] <Inari> Haha I hate when
stuff like that happens
L990[16:51:36] <Inari> I have that issue
with codepen
L991[16:53:22] <Inari> I'm not sure what
it was exactly but somehow I managed that make it unfocus the js
field or so when it updated its live-preview
L992[16:53:31] <Inari> So when I was tryin
gto backsapce it went back in the history instead
L993[16:53:48] <gamax92> %choose listen to
MichiBot or ignore MichiBot
L994[16:53:49] <MichiBot> gamax92: ignore
MichiBot
L995[16:53:59] <Inari> Why would you
ignore MichiBot
L996[16:54:13] <gamax92> but, if I ignore
michibot I ignore the advice to ignore michibot which means I
listen to michibot which told me to ignore michibot
L997[16:54:13] <MichiBot> ;_;
L998[16:54:19] <gamax92> D:
L999[16:54:51] <AmandaC> You should know
better than to talk logical paradoxes around MichiBot,
gamax92!
L1000[16:55:28] <gamax92> AmandaC: choose
procrastinate or audio transcription
L1001[16:55:42] <AmandaC> gamax92:
neither, work on Thistle. :P
L1002[16:55:51] <gamax92> oh.
L1003[17:00:42] <gamax92> AmandaC: what
am I supposed to be doing agian?
L1004[17:01:03] <AmandaC> gamax92: no
idea.
L1005[17:01:56]
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L1007[17:10:48] <Izaya> https://a.pomf.cat/armhwp.webm
L1008[17:11:55] <Izaya> Skye: ^
L1009[17:30:33] <Skye> ~w
computer.pullevent
L1010[17:30:34] <ocdoc> http://ocd.cil.li/api:computer
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L1012[17:34:38] <LaserEyeRemoval> what is
psych os?
L1013[17:34:51] <Izaya> My custom
multitasking multiuser OS
L1014[17:35:12] <Izaya> https://github.com/XeonSquared/PsychOS/
L1015[17:35:16] <LaserEyeRemoval>
neat
L1016[17:35:29] <Inari> We need a
pre-emptive OS
L1017[17:35:48] <LaserEyeRemoval> will
take a look later
L1018[17:35:58] <Izaya> that needs
debug.sethook Inari
L1019[17:36:39] <LaserEyeRemoval> just
curious, how do you (or plan to) prevent escalation of
privileges
L1020[17:37:11] <Izaya> All applications
are sandboxed but if someone can execute code on your machine
you're already screwed
L1021[17:37:23] <Izaya> because they can
happily read events then
L1022[17:38:18] <LaserEyeRemoval> so when
you mean multiuser, you mean applications are sandboxed
L1023[17:38:28] <LaserEyeRemoval> not
that its multiuser as in multi human users
L1024[17:38:33] <Izaya> I mean I can
literally have multiple human users
L1025[17:38:44] <payonel> Izaya: for the
threading library i use a tree of event handlers, threads have
their own event handler environment scoped
L1026[17:38:52] <Izaya> locally and over
a network
L1027[17:38:56] <LaserEyeRemoval> and how
do you prevent them from doing stuff like editing core files
L1028[17:39:03] <Izaya> I don't.
L1029[17:39:12] <Izaya> Well, not
yet
L1030[17:39:17] <payonel> Izaya: and a
suspended thread does not get events
L1031[17:39:19] <Izaya> I'll have
filesystem permissions eventuallytm
L1032[17:39:22] <LaserEyeRemoval> that
could be something to consider
L1033[17:39:29] <payonel> thus, a user
could run on a thread, and switching users could suspend the
first
L1034[17:39:30] <LaserEyeRemoval> look at
how they do it in linux
L1035[17:39:38] <Izaya> I know how to do
FS permissions
L1036[17:39:45] <Izaya> I haven't gotten
around to writing authentication yet
L1037[17:39:58] <Izaya> payonel: but then
what if they're both using it at the same time?
L1038[17:40:04] <LaserEyeRemoval> how
does the sandboxing work?
L1039[17:40:12] <LaserEyeRemoval> or is
planned to work
L1040[17:40:25] <Izaya> LaserEyeRemoval:
each process has a separate _ENV that mirrors _G
L1041[17:40:45] <payonel> Izaya: using
what at the same time?
L1042[17:40:50] <Izaya> it mostly
protects processes from each other
L1043[17:40:54] <Izaya> payonel: the
computer
L1044[17:42:10] <payonel> that doesn't
change anything --
L1045[17:42:17] <payonel> -.-
L1046[17:42:37] <Izaya> so you're
saying
L1047[17:42:41] <payonel> you could be
looping through threads, suspended all other users as you resume
one at a time
L1048[17:42:57] <payonel> and any events
a current user creates, such as key events, are not shared to
suspended threads
L1049[17:43:14] <Izaya> makes sense
L1050[17:43:20] <Izaya> I don't have any
user stuff yet though so
L1051[17:43:32] <Izaya> nor do I have
suspending processes
L1052[17:43:33] <payonel> correct, i'm
only saying the threading model in openos supports this
L1053[17:43:49] <Izaya> it's an
interesting idea
L1054[17:43:52] <Izaya> I'll keep it in
mind
L1055[17:43:59] <LaserEyeRemoval> when
you say sandboxing, is it intended to stop a malicious program (or
hack of a legit one) from resulting in root access, or is it just
supposed to stop them from interfering
L1056[17:44:12] <Izaya> LaserEyeRemoval:
mostly just to stop them interfering
L1057[17:44:18] <LaserEyeRemoval> I
see
L1058[17:44:36] <Izaya> Security isn't
really a focus because I don't see this being used on big multiuser
machines
L1059[17:44:48] <LaserEyeRemoval> I was
going to say that seperate _ENV is not sufficient to maintain
security
L1060[17:44:58] <LaserEyeRemoval> but
thats not relevent
L1061[17:45:01] <Izaya> It's better for
booting over a network and running from memory
L1062[17:45:12] <Izaya> so you can have
lots of cheap machines, one for each user
L1063[17:45:30] <payonel>
LaserEyeRemoval: _ENV manipulation is exactly how lua
sandboxes
L1064[17:45:43] <LaserEyeRemoval>
yeah
L1065[17:45:45] <payonel> so actually,
that is sufficient
L1066[17:46:24] <payonel> sans
vulnerabilities in lua itself, which we try to be aware of
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L1068[17:46:44] <LaserEyeRemoval> but
there are many known ways within opencomputers that the sandbox
could be broken, those could be fixed for a proper secure
sandbox
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L1070[17:48:15] <LaserEyeRemoval> there
are some that are really hard to avoid though without dirty
hacks
L1071[17:48:44] <Izaya> LaserEyeRemoval:
as far as 'one machine per user' this will happily run with no disk
and a T1 ram stick so
L1072[17:48:49] <LaserEyeRemoval> like
there are some functions that impact the computer on a hardware
level
L1073[17:48:59] <LaserEyeRemoval> well
virtual hardware
L1074[17:49:21] <payonel>
LaserEyeRemoval: i dont know any ways to break the oc sandbox. what
is one?
L1075[17:49:57] <payonel> last one we
removed was the __gc hack
L1076[17:50:13] <Izaya> can we still run
gc manually?
L1077[17:50:25] <payonel> no, not without
config change
L1078[17:50:30] <payonel> or unless you
yield 20 times
L1079[17:50:30] <Izaya> ah
L1080[17:50:43] <LaserEyeRemoval> not
break as in execute on actual server
L1081[17:50:55] <payonel>
LaserEyeRemoval: then what are you referring to?
L1082[17:51:08] *
Izaya makes function gc() for i = 1, 21 do coroutine.yield() end
end
L1083[17:51:09] <LaserEyeRemoval> I mean
break sandbox as in execute code on opencomputers computer
L1084[17:51:22] <LaserEyeRemoval> when it
is supposed to be sandboxed within the OC computer
L1085[17:51:29] <LaserEyeRemoval> a
sandbox within a sandbox in a sense
L1086[17:51:58] <LaserEyeRemoval> if its
not properly written, it is pretty easy to break out
L1087[17:52:15] <LaserEyeRemoval> but
yeah the OC sandbox is pretty tight
L1088[17:53:14] <LaserEyeRemoval> and
there is 1 way, its an open issue though
L1089[17:53:32] <Izaya> ... okay
L1090[17:53:39] <Izaya> wget doesn't work
on a T1 RAM system
L1091[17:53:47] <LaserEyeRemoval>
https://github.com/MightyPirates/OpenComputers/issues/1686
L1092[17:54:06] <LaserEyeRemoval> now
thats going to be tough to fix though
L1093[17:54:38] <FR^2> Breaking out of
the sandbox inside a sandbox game ;)
L1094[17:54:41] <Izaya> payonel: does
OpenOS have a way to do a reboot with just a key combo?
L1095[17:55:19] <Skye> Izaya, payonel:
would it be sane to make the sandbox replace the force gc function
with 20 yields or would that break things.
L1096[17:56:09] <Izaya> http://i.imgur.com/8xs97gx.png
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L1107[18:50:25] <Antheus> Howdy
L1108[18:50:46] <Antheus> .version
L1109[18:50:47] <Izaya> Hai
L1110[18:50:51] <Antheus> crap
L1111[18:50:54] <Izaya> 1.6.2
L1112[18:50:54] <Antheus> what was that
enderbot command
L1113[18:51:01] *
Izaya points up
L1114[18:51:22] <Antheus> well there was
that command that listed the version for OC and a few other
addons
L1115[18:51:34] <Izaya> I forget
>.>
L1116[18:51:47] <Antheus> does enderbot
even exist anymore ;_;
L1117[18:51:56] <Izaya> doesn't look like
it
L1118[18:51:58] <Izaya> %versions
L1119[18:52:01] *
Izaya pokes MichiBot
L1120[18:52:01] <Mimiru> No
L1121[18:52:02] *
MichiBot squeaks!
L1122[18:52:08] <Mimiru> also, there was
a jenkins command
L1123[18:52:12] <Mimiru> spat out jenkins
builds..
L1124[18:52:21] <Mimiru> MichiBot,
doesn't do that either
L1125[18:52:21] <Izaya> %jenkins
L1126[18:52:24] <Izaya> damn
L1127[18:52:53] <Antheus> damn
L1128[18:53:11] <Antheus> I remember #oc
back in its hay day when enderbot ruled the channel :(
L1129[18:54:16] <Temia> Long live
MichiBot!
L1130[18:54:25] <Temia> Because robots
should be cute!
L1131[18:55:29] <CompanionCube> EnderBot
was assimiliated into MichiBorg
L1132[18:55:51] <Antheus> MichiBot was
always the best
L1133[18:58:42] <Skye> Vexatos, does OPPM
have dependences?
L1134[19:02:22]
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L1135[19:02:27] <Vexatos> of course
>_>
L1136[19:02:35] <Empiur> Hello!
L1137[19:03:20] <Empiur> welp good
bye
L1138[19:03:50] <Izaya> o/
L1139[19:06:47]
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L1141[19:45:18] <LaserEye_> why does the
data card have a size limit for byte arrays
L1142[19:45:32] <LaserEye_> I'm
considering increasing it in the cfg, but are there issues I need
to be aware of
L1143[20:12:18] <Xal> i thought your
library/program was going to reimplement crypto routines
anyway?
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L1148[20:53:57] <LaserEyeRemoval> its
unrelated Xal
L1149[20:54:31] <LaserEyeRemoval> well
sorta related
L1150[20:54:43] <LaserEyeRemoval> I want
to test to make sure its right
L1151[20:54:53] <LaserEyeRemoval> just to
be sure
L1152[20:55:45] <LaserEyeRemoval> oh and
what to do about this?
L1153[20:55:47] <LaserEyeRemoval>
https://github.com/MightyPirates/OpenComputers/issues/1686
L1154[20:56:35] <LaserEyeRemoval> Xal:
could be problematic
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L1167[23:09:27] <Saphire> ...
L1168[23:09:32] <SF-MC> ?
L1169[23:09:39] <Saphire> CodeBin needs
you to verify signup and THEN the email
L1170[23:09:42] <Saphire> wtf
L1171[23:11:28]
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L1173[23:25:49] <Xal> Saphire: what's
codebin
L1174[23:29:02] <Saphire> pastebin for JS
with a quick way to run it