OCLogs: 2023-02-20.log

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L4[01:17:17] <Funkenstein> ;nextlunch

L5[01:17:18] <LunchBot> Блины

L6[01:17:34] <Funkenstein> ;mission

L7[01:17:34] <LunchBot> Eeloo hatches. Your CPU shakes its head in embarrassment and goes back counting integers.

L8[01:18:15] <Funkenstein> Causes lots of lag, a hatching does

L9[02:09:27] <raptop> all integers, no floats

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L12[02:46:15] <XXCoder> ;mission

L13[02:46:15] <LunchBot> You set about to start an intergalactic space war using nothing but flamethrowers. You are filled with determination.

L14[02:46:29] <XXCoder> strong will to cause war

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L21[04:06:50] <raptop> Maybe you convinced khorne of the value of fire?

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L23[04:22:26] <raptop> !mission

L24[04:22:27] <LunchBot> You replace your rocket's wiring with a Type III superconductor. "Taps" starts playing, seemingly out of nowhere.

L25[04:39:59] <Althego> hehe type 3. maybe made by a type 3 civilization

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L28[05:08:41] <raptop> Well, the joke is that you did something involving either New Physics(tm) or physically impossible, since there are only 2 types of superconductors

L29[05:08:51] <raptop> source: I added the mission (...in like 2014)

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L33[06:24:06] <X> How many days until I can buy KSP2?

L34[06:33:37] <Althego> https://twitter.com/KerbalSpaceP/status/1626257609559883779/photo/1

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L37[07:56:01] <raptop> ^

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L44[10:03:25] <X> I'm not waking up at 6am lol Hope I don't lose out on anything.

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L46[10:17:43] <Funkenstein> ;outcome add There'll be a hot time in the old town tonight.

L47[10:17:43] <LunchBot> Added outcome: There'll be a hot time in the old town tonight.

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L49[10:18:48] <Mat2ch> X: Will be bug riddled anyway ;)

L50[10:20:35] <Funkenstein> ;addlunch Speculoos cookie butter, green apples, cream cheese, peanut butter, and honey sandwiches.

L51[10:20:49] <Funkenstein> ;lunch

L52[10:20:49] <LunchBot> Paella.

L53[10:21:19] <Funkenstein> ;lunchadd Speculoos cookie butter, green apples, cream cheese, peanut butter, and honey sandwiches.

L54[10:21:36] <Funkenstein> https://media.tenor.com/U4atByjwLB8AAAAM/wack-whack.gif

L55[10:22:25] <Mat2ch> !lunch

L56[10:22:25] <LunchBot> Pasta and brown sauce.

L57[10:22:46] <Mat2ch> Pasta sounds good, but I take some real italian tomato sauce :P

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L78[14:32:09] <Althego> scott and ksp2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWcx8AiV2CM

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L80[15:09:58] <Mat2ch> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX5sa20Nf30 same from Everday Astronaut

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L82[15:14:12] <Althego> the same event

L83[15:27:51] <Althego> and also from matt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4QwvXLETtg

L84[15:27:56] <Althego> thes are getting longer and longer

L85[15:29:56] <SporkWitch> gee, sure am glad the "all notifications" function on youtube works *eyeroll*

L86[15:33:21] <Mat2ch> Nah. Keep a list of bookmarks of channels you watch and once a week open all those bookmarks in tabs and see if a new video was posted

L87[15:33:28] <Mat2ch> I would miss so many videos otherwise

L88[15:35:45] <SporkWitch> is it friday yet?

L89[15:36:28] <Althego> no

L90[15:37:23] <SporkWitch> what about now?

L91[16:07:29] <TheKosmonaut> Nope

L92[16:07:34] <TheKosmonaut> Just checked the calendar

L93[16:07:45] <SporkWitch> dammit, this is clearly a conspiracy to keep me from KSP2!

L94[16:08:50] * TheKosmonaut shakes fist at Pope Gregory XIII

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L99[16:38:55] <Mat2ch> uh. Did I see correctly? The computers have 4080s in them and Tim is already getting less than 60 fps?

L100[16:39:19] <Althego> yes

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L102[16:48:12] <darsie> A youtuber said game will become more efficient.

L103[16:48:23] <darsie> optimized

L104[16:48:25] <Mat2ch> and the "Destroy" button looks like fun!

L105[17:01:20] <packbart> Mat2ch: the scene changes are much faster than in KSP 1, though

L106[17:11:26] <Althego> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X2xAfZd7GU

L107[17:11:50] <Althego> not fast at all

L108[17:12:06] <Althego> but i guess firts make it work, and optimize later

L109[17:24:18] <SporkWitch> keep in mind also that the specs of the machines they were given access to varied.

L110[17:24:31] <SporkWitch> tim got one of the monsters, while matt got a slightly lower machine.

L111[17:44:41] <darsie> matt?

L112[17:44:47] <SporkWitch> lowne

L113[17:45:32] <darsie> Would it run with wine/Linux?

L114[17:46:17] <darsie> IIRC someone said it would.

L115[17:50:16] <Mat2ch> Althego: My KSP has similar fast scene changes. I have installed the community patches, though

L116[17:50:22] <Mat2ch> those clear up some ram and old stuff

L117[17:50:51] <SporkWitch> darsie: no way to know. All the test machines the streamers would have been given were running windows. You can bet people will be trying proton and stand-alone WINE on friday, though

L118[17:50:57] <Mat2ch> Also don't forget what beasts those computers were.

L119[17:51:08] <SporkWitch> not all of them

L120[17:51:22] <FLHerne> raptop: to be fair, I don't think a new kind of semiconductor is that high on the New Physics scale

L121[17:51:29] <SporkWitch> matt lowne's video talks about how only the really big ones like Tim got the monster rigs

L122[17:51:42] <FLHerne> we barely understand why the existing ones work afaik

L123[17:51:55] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: semiconductors or superconductors?

L124[17:52:21] <FLHerne> Oh, yeah

L125[17:52:49] <FLHerne> SporkWitch: superconductor, sorry

L126[17:53:02] <FLHerne> in-brain autocomplete fail

L127[17:53:42] <Althego> Mat2ch: i meant the framerate. from that machine it was not great at all

L128[17:53:48] <SporkWitch> it was the "not really understanding" thing that clued me, because we understand semiconductors quite well. AFAIK we also understand superconductors pretty well, but still have room to learn (since we don't know if it's even POSSIBLE to have a room-temperature superconductor)

L129[18:17:15] <Mat2ch> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryph3269OjU

L130[18:17:16] <Mat2ch> neeeeeext

L131[18:17:19] <Mat2ch> :D

L132[18:17:41] <SporkWitch> i don't generally watch his stuff because it's all text

L133[18:18:21] <SporkWitch> i do really like the countdown and how the pre-burners (I forget what they're called) start up just before ignition

L134[18:18:58] <SporkWitch> the runways actually having taxiways is also awesome

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L139[19:41:13] <Dogywall> hey guys

L140[19:41:25] <Dogywall> anyone on

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L142[19:42:18] <Dogywall> so anyone wanna discusse the system requirments

L143[19:42:34] <packbart> uh. hm. why?

L144[19:42:50] <Dogywall> well. do you think they will get alot better

L145[19:43:08] <Dogywall> bc right now its kinda exessive

L146[19:43:14] <packbart> you mean lower? maybe. but they don't need to, imo

L147[19:43:27] <Dogywall> why

L148[19:43:33] <Dogywall> the recomended is a 3080

L149[19:43:35] <Dogywall> thats alot

L150[19:43:50] <Dogywall> i mean i got a 3070 but my friends dont

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L152[19:44:03] <packbart> I'm fine with the specs as they are. I witnessed the launch of Elite Dangerous Odyssey with way too low "minimum" specs for the game they could deliver

L153[19:44:19] <packbart> so it's ok to see them set the bar for disappointment a bit higher

L154[19:45:00] <packbart> I've got a Ryzen 5 and a 2080S, so above minimum. I'll run it on ultra settings at 1400 and then complain about the framerate ;)

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L156[19:45:33] <SporkWitch> 2060 is the bottom end of two generations ago, 1070 is even older, and 3080 is the mid-high of one generation behind current. The specs are very reasonable for when the game is coming out. Further, given that 20-series cards have comparable performance to 10-series cards in non-DLSS games, we can reasonably assume any 10-series card will be fine, just with some framerate compromise. Drop res

L157[19:45:48] <SporkWitch> to 720p and it'll probably run just fine even above lowest settings.

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L159[19:47:34] <packbart> If only I could run at least the stock version via GeforceNow...

L160[19:48:03] <SporkWitch> who knows? they might put it up once it's at 1.0. Don't know GeForce Now's policy on early access titles.

L161[19:48:26] <Dogywall> whos gunna still play the OG ksp1 after ksp2 releases

L162[19:48:34] <SporkWitch> It's certainly a major candidate, considering how many people are throwing tantrums over reasonable requirements. Not to mention, have you WATCHED the videos that dropped today? I'm not at all surprised by those requirements.

L163[19:48:45] <packbart> my guess was that KSP 1 didn't feature on GFN because they didn't implement some save game cloud sync. not sure, either, what's required

L164[19:49:21] <packbart> Dogywall: lots of people, I guess. those with long-running saves and stable mods

L165[19:49:41] <Dogywall> yeah

L166[19:49:43] <SporkWitch> definitely supports steam sync, at least, even between different operating systems (not all games do; Borderlands 2, for example, has separate saves for linux and windows for some reason)

L167[19:50:16] <SporkWitch> packbart: also those wanting for the more substantial features. I know a lot of people are waiting on at least science mode, as a minimum

L168[19:50:30] <packbart> linuxgurugamer was a bit miffed in his twitch stream, yesterday, about Private Division boasting about modability but there's still not even a hint of a modding API doc

L169[19:50:32] <Dogywall> SporkWitch The graphics are definently nice but the system requirments are insane. Honestly Ill be happy if it runs at a solid 60 fps

L170[19:50:46] <SporkWitch> not even remotely insane

L171[19:50:55] <Dogywall> bro u need a 3080

L172[19:51:07] <Dogywall> the 4080 runs the game at max settings for 20 fps

L173[19:52:12] <packbart> judge after the first patches, I'd say

L174[19:52:19] <SporkWitch> the RTX2060 performs comparably to a GTX1060 on games that don't support DLSS. The GTX1070ti was 450 USD ALMOST FIVE YEARS AGO. You can get a 2060 right now for less than 300 USD, 25/mo for 12 months if your credit isn't garbage, on amazon. 3080's are in the 600-800 range, and those are a couple years old as well and not even the latest cards or the top end of that generation

L175[19:52:35] <packbart> and still, KSP was the game where fps was measured in spf, so it might be an improvement :)

L176[19:52:42] <Dogywall> yeah . thats what i origanally asked. if they graphics will be easier to run later on

L177[19:52:46] * packbart looks for his white knight armor

L178[19:52:48] <SporkWitch> the video above claiming 20FPS we don't know what the hardware was. Not all the streamers got machines with 4080's

L179[19:53:59] <Dogywall> people tested it at like a big event where they invited them to play the game. kinda like they did for warzone 2 a couple years ago

L180[19:54:01] <SporkWitch> he's claiming 4080 in his description, but we saw other streamers getting similar performance with larger, more complex rockets, and better performance with ones his size

L181[19:54:19] <SporkWitch> i'm aware, not all the streamers at that event had the same specs

L182[19:54:27] <Dogywall> ooohh. shoot

L183[19:54:29] <Dogywall> my bad

L184[19:54:35] <Dogywall> i thought they had the same

L185[19:54:50] <SporkWitch> think the journos got the worst ones, probably because games "journalists" are little better than tabloids these days

L186[19:54:58] <packbart> apparently, on the Big Names got the Big Rigs ;)

L187[19:55:00] <SporkWitch> they'll trash anything that doesn't do active woke pandering lol

L188[19:55:04] <packbart> *only

L189[19:55:43] <Dogywall> so, what do you guys have in ur pc

L190[19:55:47] <Dogywall> i got a 3070

L191[19:56:45] <SporkWitch> we also don't know the settings used in most of these. For all we know the same AA issue is present in KSP2. Dunno if you ever noticed, but AA at 4x or higher tanks KSP1 framerate, regardless of hardware. Even on my 3080, turning AA off completely gets me 20-30 FPS higher even with my massive space station and a ridiculous number of graphics mods. At 2560x1440 there isn't even any real

L192[19:56:46] <packbart> R5 3600, 2080S. I'll be fine, I guess. It even runs EDO on ultra-settings above 30fps

L193[19:57:10] <SporkWitch> noticeable difference in visual quality, except where you see some z-fighting, in which case you'll occasionally see some jaggies there, but the z-fighting is the bigger eyesore anyway

L194[19:57:18] <packbart> well, Elite doesn't even *have* anti-aliasing

L195[19:58:20] <SporkWitch> honestly i don't use anti-aliasing in almost any games these days. I only used it in KSP because of the lower overall graphical quality in the first place, so it can sometimes help. Most stuff, at 2560x1440 on my 32" monitor, from the 1m or so I sit from it, you're never going to notice a difference even if you're looking for it

L196[19:58:52] <SporkWitch> and then with DLSS, it's effectively doing some anti-aliasing anyway, since when it thinks it has the overhead for it, it renders at a higher resolution then scales down (which is how a lot of AA works)

L197[19:59:30] <SporkWitch> given that they only had limited playtime, it's a safe bet they didn't take 10 minutes tweaking settings heh

L198[19:59:50] <SporkWitch> plenty of time to tweak friday, when it makes more sense to anyway, as that's the real early access release, whereas the one they were playing wasn't.

L199[19:59:57] <packbart> DLSS is spooky ML hallucination ;) "The missing pixels in other games looked like this"

L200[20:00:40] <SporkWitch> packbart: it really does make a huge difference, though. Was really noticeable in Cyberpunk. average 20+ extra frames compared to off AND the game looked better

L201[20:00:47] <Dogywall> yeah maybe there is a setting that is easy to turn down but doesnt effect the game much.

L202[20:01:09] <packbart> we already heard requests to turn off the sparks in the VAB

L203[20:01:12] <packbart> :>

L204[20:01:30] <Dogywall> does it even effect that much

L205[20:01:34] <SporkWitch> pretty nitceable in hogwarts legacy as well, but it's got some weird frame stutters that forced me to set it to performance, so i could leave everything else maxed. It feels like a bug since there was no particular visual effects or areas that trigger the stutters, so hopefully they patch that eventually

L206[20:01:53] <SporkWitch> seriously? I loved that little weld effect!

L207[20:02:10] <SporkWitch> also the pre-burners near the end of the launch countdown before ignition. Was a super awesome detail

L208[20:03:07] <Dogywall> i mean i like the weld effect but why do they want to turn it off.

L209[20:03:09] <packbart> so... did you leave the VAB/SPH crew milling about or did you turn them off? :)

L210[20:04:16] <Dogywall> crew million?

L211[20:04:18] <Dogywall> whats that

L212[20:04:32] <packbart> the space center crew walking around on the editor floor

L213[20:04:37] <Dogywall> ohhhhh

L214[20:04:39] <Dogywall> yeah

L215[20:04:43] <Dogywall> thats cool

L216[20:04:58] <packbart> it can be awkward, adjusting some detail on a plane and suddenly a Kerbal walks through the cockpit

L217[20:05:27] <Dogywall> oh. ive never had that happen. they just walk in the background all the time

L218[20:05:38] <Dogywall> i do build in the air more than on the ground

L219[20:05:57] <packbart> yeah, it really only happens when I put the plane or rover on the ground to align the wheels

L220[20:06:07] <Mat2ch> tbh from what I have seen from the videos it looks like the cpu is the limit, again.

L221[20:06:14] <packbart> I turned them off on the potato laptop with IntelHD graphics

L222[20:06:19] <SporkWitch> yeah, i only move things right near the ground if checking offset landing gear (e.g. I want nose high or nose low when landed)

L223[20:07:46] <Dogywall> also, kinda off topic but I like how in ksp2 you can build 2 rockets at the same time.

L224[20:09:59] <packbart> yeah, it was a bit annoying sometimes that one could pick up the "ghost assembly" only by its root and not re-root it

L225[20:10:25] <Mat2ch> That will be neat. I like those huge ship that carries multiple landers for a full Jool tour

L226[20:10:29] <SporkWitch> that was announced fairly early on. Will be very helpful. I hope it lets you specify dummy payloads, though. e.g. build each stage separately so you can see the ΔV each will have. Not sure how to implement that, though; probably still have to just build top-down like we always have, but at least we can have them be separate things that "exist" in the VAB, instead of just ghosts sitting there

L227[20:11:19] <Dogywall> do we think that we will be able to name kerbals instead of their last name always being kerman

L228[20:12:25] <packbart> Random Test Dummy #7012

L229[20:12:32] <Dogywall> lol

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L231[20:15:10] <packbart> anyway, I predict much disappointment on day 1 but I still plan to give them my money, anyway

L232[20:17:00] <packbart> otoh, I didn't buy the Hogwarts thing and wait for a better sale

L233[20:18:40] <raptop> You've been able to name kerbals since like 0.14, though admittedly that's through save editing

L234[20:21:28] <packbart> a save game editor web service would be nice to have. shift some orbits, change resources, drop new vessels into constellations

L235[20:21:42] <SporkWitch> it's all plaintext, actually very easy to use

L236[20:21:45] <packbart> it works wonders for my Satisfactory sandbox :)

L237[20:22:11] <packbart> SporkWitch: but it's still tedious to move satellites into specific constellations by hand

L238[20:23:07] <SporkWitch> packbart: i mean, it would be in a purpose-built editor too. Most save editors like that just turn the JSON or w/e the file is in, into clearly labeled boxes. Most of them are HARDER to read than a JSON source, which i'm pretty sure is what KSP uses.

L239[20:23:18] <packbart> well, I'll see what the KSP 2 save game format looks like

L240[20:23:19] <SporkWitch> you can also just use the cheat menu in-game for the same purpose

L241[20:23:38] <SporkWitch> I suspect it's probably JSON again, at least for the main saves. Not sure about craft files.

L242[20:23:55] <SporkWitch> it's just a good, easy-to-work-with format, especially if you want people to be able to easily modify things

L243[20:25:04] <packbart> I meant something like https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map - upload save game, edit stuff (and they also have a community library of whole factories to plonk onto your map), export and re-load into the game

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L250[22:12:57] <SporkWitch> XD [17:11]Itskillerluc: I know but forcing people to have a gaming pc for a single game isn’t nice

L251[22:13:13] <SporkWitch> forcing people to have a gaming computer to play a game! WHAT MADNESS!

L252[22:18:52] <Izaya> throwback to playing KSP on a sandy bridge celeron laptop

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L254[22:32:38] <FLHerne> packbart: I don't mind the advertised specs as such, but seeing noticeable lag with pretty moderately-sized rockets on those high-spec systems is offputting

L255[22:33:33] <FLHerne> IMO, performance of high-part-count craft was one of relatively few areas KSP 2 could really differentiate itself from modded KSP 1

L256[22:34:40] <FLHerne> the core simulation code isn't really moddable, and KSP 1 left a lot of room for improvement with a ground-up rewrite

L257[22:35:02] <FLHerne> but somehow they seem to have made it significantly *worse*

L258[22:35:21] <darsie> .

L259[22:36:03] <FLHerne> the shiny graphics, extra planets and parts and stuff are already done by KSP 1 mods, better, with lower system requirements

L260[22:36:22] <FLHerne> solid tutorials are nice but only of interest to new players

L261[22:36:49] <FLHerne> not writing off KSP 2 yet, but it's not a promising start

L262[22:39:37] <umaxtu> assuming that they are using early access properly and not a glorified demo system, then we should see improvements over time

L263[22:42:06] <FLHerne> unless there's some major oversight, significantly improving performance of a game (or any bit of software really) post-release rarely works well

L264[22:42:55] <FLHerne> If they'd started with a solid simulation but minimal content and an ugly renderer, sure

L265[22:43:29] <FLHerne> just keep adding features until it's great

L266[22:55:18] <umaxtu> unfortunately I doubt take 2 would approve that

L267[23:03:30] <packbart> yeah, it needs to look great on (ea) release day

L268[23:10:50] <umaxtu> speaking of things take2 wouldn't approve of. I think I'd be much more willing live with performance issues if they weren't charging $50 out of the gate

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