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L8[02:19:35] <funkenstein> ;mission
L9[02:19:36] <LunchBot> You are tasked with
obtaining a surface sample from Jool. Your rocket is eaten by a
horde of white mice.
L10[02:19:59] <funkenstein> Beware the Mice
of Jool
L11[02:23:54] <funkenstein> ;outcome add
Beware the Mice of Jool.
L12[02:23:54] <LunchBot> Added outcome:
Beware the Mice of Jool.
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L19[03:32:01] <raptop> Althego: so, ina is
playing the cat game
L20[03:32:11] <Althego> yes i saw it
L21[03:32:29] <Althego> didnt expect her to
play at this time
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L26[04:58:49] <funkenstein> spam meow
L27[04:59:02] <funkenstein> ;mission add
You spam meow.
L28[04:59:02] <LunchBot> Added mission: You
spam meow.
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L30[05:00:15] <funkenstein> I have been
finding that "achieve proper inclination, aim at mun" has
been working very well as a method to get to minmus.
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L34[06:31:52] <XXCoder> ;missiom
L35[06:31:54] <XXCoder> ;mission
L36[06:31:55] <LunchBot> You try to find
The Awnser. Blood for *all* of the Blood Gods.
L37[06:32:19] <XXCoder> Awnser is only one
with plenty blood for them. the only answer
L38[06:39:51] <funkenstein> I feep
forgetting how to activate the kerbal rcs packs
L39[06:40:27] <funkenstein> eva
L40[06:42:03] <funkenstein> ah. R
L41[06:54:17] <funkenstein> I got the mk2
lander can to survive both atmospheric entry AND a sneeze
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L43[07:03:48] <Izaya_> FITS screenshots
would be neat, imagine all the metadata you could embed
L44[07:03:57] ***
Izaya_ is now known as Izaya
L45[07:04:40] <Izaya> you could embed
location, speed, time, mass, fuel levels, the whole craft file,
really
L46[07:05:05] *
UmbralRaptor wants to say that you can fit an arbitrary amount, but
it's hacky and has to be in ASCII
L47[07:05:17] <UmbralRaptor> Hah!
L48[07:05:27] <Izaya> base64 wants to know
your location
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L55[08:29:02] <funkenstein> is it worth
spending the science to get the mobile processing lab
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L57[09:05:51] <SporkWitch> funkenstein:
absolutely yes, but there's a caveat. Many consider the lab to be
overpowered. It's effectively a way to print nearly infinite
science. So you know you normally get science for doing an
experiment and transmitting or carrying that science back to
kerbin. The lab is another place you can carry that data to. The
lab then, over time, converts that to more science than
simply
L58[09:07:16] <SporkWitch> returning it to
kerbin does. It also gets a multiplier for the body it's on or in
orbit of. It's not mutually exclusive, either. You can take a
temperature reading from Minmus Greater flats, return it to kerbin
to get that science; now temp from greater flats is worth no
science to return to kerbin, BUT you can bring it to a lab landed
on greater flats, and that will make more science from it.
L59[09:08:19] <SporkWitch> Now that's
consumed for a lab on the surface of minmus (I don't know how
granular it goes, but I assume it's considered "done" for
all labs on the surface of minmus), and I think you can do ANOTHER
copy of it delivered to a lab in ORBIT of minmus.
L60[09:08:46] <SporkWitch> Effectively, you
can complete the entire vanilla tech tree without ever leaving the
kerbin/mun/minmus system, by using science labs.
L61[09:09:24] <SporkWitch> For this reason,
many consider them overpowered and don't use them except for
role-playing reasons and to level up kerbals without needing to
return them to kerbin first; they don't actually give science data
to them to process.
L62[09:10:00] <SporkWitch> Now if you're
doing Interstellar? USE LABS. You need tens of thousands of science
to complete that tree, it's nuts haha
L63[09:11:49] <SporkWitch> (looping back a
bit, you can even take a sample from the surface of kerbin and
bring THAT to your lab on minmus, a lab in orbit of kerbin, a lab
in orbit of the mun, AND a lab on the surface of the mun, and each
will generate more science, further impacted by the multiplier for
being in orbit or surface of that body). You can see how ridiculous
it can get heh
L64[09:20:43] <darsie> SporkWitch: IIRC you
can process the same science with new labs over and over
again.
L65[09:21:17] <SporkWitch> so even more
broken than i thought; i wasn't sure, but i was confident that
worst case (best case? heh) would be surface lab + orbital lab, per
body
L66[09:22:48] <SporkWitch> funkenstein: one
other thing to note: make sure you have plenty of batteries and
power generation, as well as a transmitting antenna. Labs use a
fair bit of power to generate science, a LOT of power to reset
experiments (though it's nice not having to go EVA to reset them),
and they can store up to 500 science, which takes a lot of power to
transmit back to kerbin (and it has to be transmitted;
L67[09:23:01] <SporkWitch> HDDs don't exist
in KSP, so you can't ferry it back home physically :P)
L68[09:24:58] <SporkWitch> started a new X4
playthrough the other day. SOOOO tedious getting initial production
set up; the AI is not very smart about filling production gaps, so
getting the materials to build those first factory stations is a
nightmare, heh
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L74[11:22:06] <funkenstein> so I couldn't
transfer data to an expeeriment storage unit with a small rocket
motor, fuel, and probe core, decouple it from my lab and send it
back to kerbin to be recovered?
L75[11:38:43] <SporkWitch> no, because
giving the experiment data to the lab converts it to
"data" rather than a specific experiment. Data is
converted by the lab into science, which must be transmitted with
an antenna.
L76[11:39:57] <SporkWitch> (though I guess
you could actually return the lab itself, maybe? I've never tried,
as it's not really how they're intended to be used. It's expected
that the lab is part of a permanent station or base, sometimes a
ship that never leaves orbit, but the point is it stays up
there)
L77[11:43:33] <funkenstein> alright but
sending a full experiment storage unti back full of experiments not
data?
L78[11:44:54] <SporkWitch> experiment
storage units can only hold experiments (e.g. crew report, goo
results, etc.). You can use it to transport it TO a lab, but when
you click the button in the results window to give it to the lab,
it consumes that result (but if you've never returned it to kerbin
it doesn't "use it up" in terms of the science reward for
returning it) and converts it to Data in the lab. The lab, as
I
L79[11:45:16] <SporkWitch> already stated,
consumes this data over time, converting it to Science, which you
can then transmit from the lab back to kerbin (TRANSMIT, not
carry)
L80[11:46:34] <SporkWitch> Really, there's
no REASON to carry it back, as there are no losses or caps, like
with transmitting the experiment result itself. You just need to
make sure you have enough storage / production of power
(alternatively you can just enable "allow partial
transmission," but this can make it take a LONG time to
transmit fully, and you'll want to pause Research -- conversion of
data to science -- while
L81[11:46:45] <SporkWitch> it's doing that,
so all the power is going to transmitting the next packet)
L82[11:47:46] <SporkWitch> i really don't
know how to simplify it any further, you'll just have to use the
thing, it's very simple and obvious how it works once you do it
once
L83[11:54:18] <darsie> Mist, I missed
it.
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L92[15:21:04] <Althego> kikkerikii
L94[15:26:06] <raptop> birb
L95[15:27:27] <Althego> launch in mabout 2
hours
L96[15:28:18] <raptop> Huh, starlink
L97[15:39:33] <FLHerne> (again)
L98[15:40:02] <Althego> next stream is
starlink too
L99[15:40:03] <FLHerne> only noteworthy
thing about this launch is that it's the quickest turnaround of
SLC-4E by a huge margin
L100[15:40:19] <Althego> i think there is
a chinese launch in between, but no stream
L101[15:41:11] <FLHerne> 10 days since
3-1, shortest previously was 22 days
L102[15:42:04] <SporkWitch> ... so the
extreme end of the climate activists are apparently, and
unironically, proposing a literal "sunshade" at L1 to
counter global warming... lol
L103[15:42:23] <SporkWitch> that's up
there with Futurama having all the robots light their farts to push
the earth into a higher orbit lol
L104[15:42:52] <FLHerne> eh
L105[15:43:04] <FLHerne> people have
semi-seriously proposed the opposite for Mars terraforming
L106[15:43:29] <SporkWitch> the need for
that extreme of action is actually scientifically backed for mars
terraforming, though lol
L107[15:43:39] <FLHerne> it wouldn't have
to cover the whole sun, just a few percent
L108[15:44:14] <SporkWitch> ("the
world is going to end in X years from climate change" is on
par with "fusion is 10 years away"; that is, the number
never changes, and they've been saying it for decades)
L109[15:44:35] <SporkWitch> 1.8%, from one
of the clips i saw, yeah heh
L110[15:44:48] <FLHerne> that sounds less
convincing, given that most of Europe is currently having a
completely unprecedented heatwave
L111[15:44:51] <SporkWitch> same source,
it would "only" require a shade THE SIZE OF BRAZIL
L112[15:45:00] <FLHerne> "world
end", no
L113[15:45:25] <Althego> as usual the last
year is almost always the hottest year on record
L114[15:45:28] <FLHerne> "really
undesirable changes in climate that screw up our current society
and infrastructure", right now
L115[15:46:28] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: two
points, 1) "we're having an unprecedented heat wave" is
no different than the counterargument "we just had more snow
than ever," it conflates weather with climate, and why no one
cares what meteorologists like that Watts idiot have to say about
GLOBAL climate. 2) no one competent disputes the reality of AGW,
the issue is that that was settled with Berkeley Earth something
like a
L116[15:46:42] <SporkWitch> decade ago,
and what's left in the news coverage is ONLY the massive
extremists
L117[15:46:51] <FLHerne> SporkWitch: not
over 250 years of records, no
L118[15:47:02] <FLHerne> and it's not an
isolated event
L119[15:47:22] <FLHerne> as Althego points
out, basically every year for the last couple of decades has been
hotter than the historic average
L120[15:48:19] <SporkWitch> "really
undesirable changes in climate that screw up our current society
and infrastructure": even this doesn't fit the realistic
models (or the actions of the people funding the activists...
cliche as it may be, it's hard for me to take seriously someone
saying we have to kill 60+ million by ceasing fossil fuel use
immediately, when the same person just bought beach front property
that will be
L121[15:48:28] <FLHerne> I'm not sure what
you mean by "settled"
L122[15:48:30] <SporkWitch> underwater in
just a couple years, according to their own claimed numbers)
L123[15:48:49] <FLHerne> it's certainly
settled that it's real, it's not settled in the sense of having any
viable plan to deal with it
L124[15:49:35] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: the
last legitimate scientific opposition to Anthropogenic Global
Warming was the Berkeley Earth project. The lead didn't like the
models used to generate the famous "hockey stick" graph
and thought there were methodological flaws. He did his own study,
correcting those flaws, and ended up with the same results. Thus
died the only legitimate claim that AGW wasn't happening.
L125[15:49:45] <FLHerne> the problem is,
that beachfront property *will* be underwater in a few
decades
L126[15:50:12] <FLHerne> I don't know
where you've found single-digit years from, sounds like some
strawman extremist view
L127[15:50:33] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: the
strawman extremist view is literally the one put forth in
mainstream media.
L128[15:50:41] <SporkWitch> BY the climate
activists
L129[15:50:42] <FLHerne> nah
L130[15:50:56] <SporkWitch> well then
their messaging is terrible, because that's how they come across
lol
L131[15:51:18] <Althego> the problem is
not the beach property. but the fact that most of humans live quite
close to oceans, so big cities will be underwater
L132[15:51:20] <FLHerne> mainstream media
a few years ago was giving the "extremist" predictions
that we'd have 40°C weeks across the continent before 2050
L133[15:51:24] <SporkWitch> i don't
actively consume this particular subject, so 90%+ of what I hear is
the claims of the climate activists in the media
L134[15:52:00] <SporkWitch> i DO think the
actual scientists are probably a bit more rational, but public
policy isn't being decided by those rational people
L135[15:52:39] <FLHerne> are you confusing
"must act by <2020>" dates with the estimated dates
of the consequences coming about?
L136[15:52:44] <FLHerne> most of the
former are in the past now
L137[15:53:03] <SporkWitch> i'm referring
to "must act immediately or it's over in 12 years" which
is the standard line
L138[15:53:08] <FLHerne> there *will* be
large-scale warming without ridiculously dramatic interventions
like your sunshield
L139[15:53:43] <FLHerne> SporkWitch: name
a single 'reliable' media outlet that's claimed it'll be
"over" ever
L140[15:54:00] <FLHerne> (excluding the
kind of tabloids that say everything is cancer)
L141[15:54:01] <SporkWitch> name a single
reliable media outlet in the current era...
L142[15:54:08] <FLHerne> yeah, hence the
quotes
L143[15:54:35] <Althego> hehe
L144[15:54:47] <Althego> all the big media
is pushing its own narrativem not truth
L145[15:55:01] <FLHerne> Major newspapers,
state media that isn't North Korea, whatever
L146[15:55:22] <FLHerne> whatever you
consider "mainstream media" to be
L147[15:55:38] <SporkWitch> I think the
mistake you're making is thinking I'm talking about rational
individuals with expertise in the relevant fields. I'm not. I'm
talking about the activists who are promoted in the mainstream,
defended when the engage in anything from getting that guy arrested
(was on parole, they blocked a road preventing him from getting to
work, refused to open even one lane for him to get through)
to
L148[15:56:02] <SporkWitch> outright
ecoterrorism, and it's these lunatics that are the ones drivign the
POLICIES
L149[15:56:13] <FLHerne> They're not at
all wrong
L150[15:56:34] <FLHerne> the consequences
are starting to be noticeable now, but will be worst in a couple of
decades
L151[15:56:38] <FLHerne> the time to act
is NOW
L152[15:56:39] <SporkWitch> they mostly
are, and they actively fight the single most effective means of
addressing it: nuclear
L153[15:56:44] <FLHerne> or ideally, like,
20 years ago
L154[15:56:50] <FLHerne> but a time
machine would be nice
L155[15:57:01] <FLHerne> Yeah, the nuclear
thing I don't get
L156[15:57:13] <Althego> ah yes the dark
greens
L157[15:57:13] <SporkWitch> it would help,
yeah; lot of damage has been done by shutting down nuclear plants
and replacing them with russian oil :P
L158[15:57:21] <Althego> dark as in
dim
L159[15:57:43] <Althego> even today, with
"current geopolitical items", coal powerplants are coming
back
L160[15:57:48] <FLHerne> trivial volumes
of waste we can stick in literally a handful of well-protected
holes, vs ecosystems across the planet?
L161[15:57:50] <SporkWitch> i DO get it,
because it's not so much about the environment (at least not for
their handlers; the plebs on the ground believe what they're told
and repeating) as it is control
L162[15:58:09] <SporkWitch> Althego:
that's my big gripe with pure-electric vehicles. Overwhelming
majority of power generation is goal and oil
L163[15:58:11] <SporkWitch> *coal
L164[15:58:33] <Althego> depends on where
you live
L165[15:58:41] <SporkWitch> global
average
L166[15:58:42] <Althego> but yes, they a
re not a complete solution alone
L167[15:59:12] <SporkWitch> i'm a HUGE fan
of hybrids, though, as those actually do have a massive fuel effect
on reducing fuel consumption and pollution, much more so than pure
EVs
L168[15:59:17] <Althego> i hate
hybrids
L169[15:59:54] <Althego> those are
basically the wrong way. they are too complex, creation consumes
lot of energy
L170[16:00:24] <FLHerne> they make sense
while cell production ramps up, possibly
L171[16:00:28] <SporkWitch> i can't
imagine hybrids are any more costly in terms of
pollution-in-production than a pure EV...
L172[16:00:37] <FLHerne> currently that's
the most limiting factor on EV production
L173[16:00:57] <FLHerne> and you can make
perhaps 5-10 PHEVs with the cells for one pure EV
L174[16:01:18] <FLHerne> with the range to
do most daily commuting on straight electric
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L176[16:01:48] <FLHerne> SporkWitch:
lifetime of cars is ~20 years, the energy mix over their lifetime
will improve a lot
L177[16:02:04] <FLHerne> UK has gone from
~20% to almost 50% renewables in the last decade
L178[16:02:07] <SporkWitch> FLHerne:
again, it's more about how the power is generated. Your pure
electric vehicle is actually contributing MORE to pollution than a
pure gas car, because that power is being GENERATED by fossil
fuels, then you're tacking on all the transmission and conversion
losses from turning it into power at the plant, getting it to the
charger, charging the battery, then converting it back to
mechanical
L179[16:02:08] <SporkWitch> work
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L181[16:02:23] <FLHerne> SporkWitch:
that's simply wrong
L182[16:02:40] <SporkWitch> it's not, it's
basic physics and the reality of how the majority of power is
generated in the world
L183[16:02:45] <FLHerne> efficiency of
large generators under steady load is more than double a car
ICE
L184[16:02:56] <SporkWitch> It's the same
reason cold climates still use wood and gas for heat, not electric:
it's FAR more efficient
L185[16:03:23] <FLHerne> even with a
totally coal-fired grid, even including production emissions, EVs
are slightly ahead of petrol
L186[16:03:56] <Althego> there are
multiple levels. first a small fossil fuel power plant, like the
engine of the car cant be as efficient as a big power plant.
second, an electric car has regenerative braking, third, not all of
its power comes from fossil fuels
L187[16:04:14] <FLHerne> big power plants
are ~60% of maximum theoretical efficiency, ICEs are more like
25%
L188[16:04:24] <FLHerne>
transmission/charging losses are single digits
L189[16:04:27] <Althego> so electric cars
help somewhat
L190[16:04:32] <Althego> but they are not
the solution alone
L191[16:04:44] <Althego> but there is no
cure all solution
L192[16:04:51] <Althego> we have to move
step by step
L193[16:05:30] <FLHerne> heating is
different because you're producing, well, heat
L194[16:05:32] <SporkWitch> also have to
consider side-effects (i refer again to the 60m+ estimated to die
in the first winter if, as the activists have called for, we just
kill fossil fuel use overnight)
L195[16:05:50] <FLHerne> you can't really
have lower efficiency at smaller scales because all the waste
energy is heat
L196[16:05:54] <SporkWitch> and it does no
good to cripple our own countries if other countries aren't also
going to do their part
L197[16:06:23] <FLHerne> (but electric
heat pumps from a gas-fired CCGT power station are about twice as
efficient as simply burning the gas at home)
L198[16:07:11] <FLHerne> SporkWitch:
frankly, that's fewer people than are going to die from
continent-wide crop failures
L199[16:07:27] <SporkWitch> if you can
afford that, maybe; the other 99% of the population can't. Hence
the choices are RESISTIVE electric heating (either direct, or in
the form of an oil-fillled radiator, which is marginally better),
wood, or gas
L200[16:07:42] <FLHerne> this year, the
European potato harvest is going to be down by 40% or whatever it
was
L201[16:07:56] <FLHerne> not a major
problem because we're rich and can import whatever
L202[16:08:18] <FLHerne> but in Africa or
wherever else is short of foreign exchange currency, that's a
pretty major famine
L203[16:08:48] <FLHerne> yeah, I don't
think anyone is pushing for resistive electric heating
L204[16:08:52] <FLHerne> doesn't buy you
much
L205[16:09:10] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: which
we wont' have to worry about for SEVERAL decades, at minimum. As to
the reduced harvests this year, that has several factors, the
climate being negligible. The primary factors are governments
literally stopping farmers from farming (the Dutch recently shot at
farmers protesting being prevented from farming), and the
fertilizer shortages due to the Ukraine war (that's really
only
L206[16:09:11] <FLHerne> heat pumps can be
a lot cheaper with economies of mass production
L207[16:09:17] <FLHerne> they're still an
expensive niche thing
L208[16:09:28] <SporkWitch> still going
due to western funding; not that I want Russia to win, but it would
have been over pretty quick if not for the west funding
Ukraine)
L209[16:09:32] <FLHerne> SporkWitch: Did
you miss the bit where I said *this year*?
L210[16:09:48] <FLHerne> it's not a
several-decades problem, it's a frequent-by-2030s problem
L211[16:10:22] <FLHerne> no, I read the
rest of your sentence now :p
L212[16:11:12] <FLHerne> It's mostly due
to lack of rainfall, the other factors are pretty minor
L213[16:11:13] <SporkWitch> yeah, that's
literally the "world is ending" talking point from the
extremists that make the news, that i'm talking about. No, the
world is not ending that quickly. If it were, Bill Gates would be
buying up solar plants, not farm land.
L214[16:11:44] <SporkWitch> You can't
convince me of the doomsaying nonsense when the people promoting it
are constantly and consistently taking actions that say they don't
believe it and are seeking to profit.
L216[16:12:45] <SporkWitch> i'm sorry,
you're trying to say that lack of rainfall has a larger impact than
governments literally shutting down farmers and stopping them from
farming...? Did I misunderstand?
L217[16:13:03] <SporkWitch> okay, fair
enough, going after both.
L218[16:13:04] <FLHerne> yes, because the
latter is pretty much a made-up talking point
L219[16:13:26] <SporkWitch> it's so made
up that police in the netherlands were literally just shooting at
farmers protesting the government not letting them farm...
L220[16:14:05] <SporkWitch> Farmers in the
US literally being paid to fallow their fields... it's not a made
up talking point, it's literally happening across the western
world...
L222[16:15:45] <FLHerne> so, looking at
the wiki, your argument is that this year's potato harvest is down
because of proposals to limit Dutch livestock farming in the
future...
L223[16:16:00] <FLHerne> to be fair
though, 30% reduction in livestock is pretty significant
L224[16:16:34] <FLHerne> albeit probably a
net win for human calories, because the feedstock -> meat
efficiency of cattle is hopeless
L225[16:17:17] <SporkWitch> 1) wiki is not
a source, and isn't remotely reliable for anything even possibly
controversial. About the only thing at all trustworthy these days
are their articles on maths. 2) no, I'm saying that harvests in
general are down because of two years of supply chain disruption
(resulting in things going bad and thus lost), preventing people
from farming, and the more recent fertilizer shortages.
L226[16:18:24] <SporkWitch> if draught has
tacked on and the total is 40%, fine, but we see draughts all the
time, we've been seeing these shortages for longer than just this
year, and the prediction for it to be really bad this fall is
MOSTLY blamed on the fertilizer shortage, but is really exacerbated
by stopping people from farming
L227[16:19:44] <SporkWitch> ... meat is
literally one of the most efficient means of getting those
particular nutrients... there's a reason that herbivores spend
literally their entire lives eating and sleeping, they have to, or
they don't get enough, because plants are NOT efficient
sources...
L228[16:20:32] <SporkWitch> the simple
fact that you have to watch your diet so carefully if you
DON"T eat animal products is further evidence of this. You
WILL have nutrient deficiencies unless you're eating a VERY careful
diet, and even then, you will generally need to supplement it with
pills
L229[16:22:25] <SporkWitch> related to all
this, and hopefully a bit less controversial, is that breakthrough
something like a century ago. Did something like DOUBLING crop
yields, but the NUTRIENT content stayed the same (meaning LOWER
nutrient density). It'd be interesting to see some research into
that to see its correlation with rising obesity (which I believe
has even been an issue for europe more recently, no longer
L230[16:22:27] <SporkWitch> just the
US)
L231[16:22:43] <FLHerne> there are far
more efficient means in terms of energy/farmland/GHGs [methane from
cattle is surprisingly significant]
L232[16:22:46] <SporkWitch> i forget the
name of the guy that came up with it or the name of the tech
L233[16:22:49] <FLHerne> not as convenient
or tasty though
L234[16:23:26] <SporkWitch> well you're
welcome to your cricket burgers :P
L235[16:24:11] <SporkWitch> you can bet
Bill Gates won't be giving up his steak, but he can afford the
200$/lb it'll cost with the policies being pushed
L236[16:24:37] <SporkWitch> one of the
only things i can agree with the marxists on: the elites do seem to
want to bring back serfdom and feudalism heh
L237[16:27:29] <SporkWitch> looping back,
apparently they hit 40% efficiency on solar recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8crjuL8FFs
(personally, I think it'll only really be viable once beamed power
is viable; really need orbital solar farms to make it practical at
scale)
L238[16:53:35] <FLHerne> SporkWitch: I did
eat some crickets, they were a bit meh
L239[16:55:22] <FLHerne> Bill Gates does
have own a large share of 'Beyond Meat', trying to make
meat-tasting plant-based burgers
L240[16:55:27] <FLHerne> s/have //
L241[16:55:41] <FLHerne> you're right that
he's not a vegetarian though :p
L243[16:57:56] <FLHerne> truly
massive-scale deployments in deserts that no-one was using for
anything else, with the highest insolation you can find on the
surface
L244[16:58:09] <FLHerne> and at that scale
you can afford to build grid links to wherever you need it
L245[16:59:22] <FLHerne> (tl;dr - 10GW
solar plant with on-site energy storage in Morocco, with dedicated
HVDC link to the UK; 8% of UK power demand from one project)
L246[17:00:02] <FLHerne> space-based is
neat in theory, but I'm skeptical of the efficiency advantages
making up for the cost
L247[17:00:33] <FLHerne> especially when
you allow for inefficiency of the ludicrous-power microwave beam
based on technology that doesn't really exist
L248[17:00:34] <SporkWitch> FLHerne:
you're back to transmission losses again. There was a multibililon
dollar project to build a huge solar farm in the Sahara; it was
scrapped, because there would be no cost-effective method to get
the power anywhere useful from there.
L249[17:00:56] <FLHerne> transmission
losses of HVDC cables are fairly minor
L250[17:01:21] <FLHerne> and what's the
transmission loss of a GEO-to-surface microwave beam?
L251[17:01:58] <Pinkbeast> stretch goal
for space-based, make it work without making it look like a highly
effective orbital weapons platform
L252[17:02:07] <SporkWitch> FLHerne:
space-based is definitely not going to be cost-efficient, what it
is is actually FEASIBLE, since you don't have to deal with the
terrible inefficiency of ground-based panels even at the equator,
and the massive amount of space they take up to generate enough
power to matter. It would require massive government subsidies to
make it affordable for consumers to buy that power, but if
you
L253[17:02:11] <FLHerne> > 3.5% per
1,000 km
L254[17:02:18] <FLHerne> so about 7%
losses for this project
L255[17:02:36] <FLHerne> it's not nothing,
but it's not huge
L256[17:02:56] <SporkWitch> really want to
replace everything, including nuclear, with solar, that's the only
way I see it working. Wind is a non-starter. Horrifically
inefficient to build, terrible efficiency for power generation,
VERY limited places where you even can do it and limited times when
it generates
L257[17:03:45] <Pinkbeast> FLHerne: Also I
think maintenance costs might be a bit lower if the system is on
the ground
L258[17:03:50] <FLHerne> ideal-case space
solar can maybe triple the efficiency of panels on the ground in
equatorial deserts
L259[17:03:56] <FLHerne> (including the
extra time in sunlight)
L260[17:04:13] <FLHerne> is it going to
cost less than three times as much? I really doubt it
L261[17:04:29] <FLHerne> Wind
depends
L262[17:04:43] <FLHerne> it's a pretty
large chunk of the UK grid, but then we have lots of
coastline
L263[17:04:50] <FLHerne> offshore wind is
quite reliable
L264[17:05:05] <FLHerne> (in terms of
being consistently windy)
L265[17:05:22] <FLHerne> I'm not convinced
that large on-land wind farms make sense
L266[17:05:31] <FLHerne> perhaps if you
have somewhere big and flat like Texas
L267[17:06:42]
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L268[17:06:48] <FLHerne> (just looked it
up, wind was 24% of total UK generation in 2020, which is the
latest year with convenient stats published)
L269[17:07:14] <FLHerne> it breaks even
without major subsidies
L270[17:08:13] <FLHerne> also wind and
solar tend to complement each other; it's typically windiest when
it's not sunny and vice versa
L271[17:11:21] <SporkWitch> FLHerne:
again, not arguing that orbital solar would be money-efficient, the
point is that it eliminates the physical space requirements. Slap
'em in a polar orbit and make starlink's constellation look like a
connect-the-dots compared to a DSLR photo.
L272[17:12:40] <FLHerne> I don't think
we're going to run out of Sahara [et al] in time for that to be a
near-term problem
L273[17:12:42] <SporkWitch> no longer have
to deal with hundreds of acres of land being taken up, massive
physical transmission infrastructure taking up more space. You
wanna do stuff on the ground? Do nuclear.
L274[17:12:52] <FLHerne> eventually we'll
need to upgrade to a Dyson sphere, too
L275[17:13:12] <FLHerne> underwater HVDC
links don't take up much space anyone was using
L276[17:13:28] <FLHerne> More nuclear
would be good
L277[17:13:35] <FLHerne> although it just
takes too long to build now
L278[17:13:42] <FLHerne> and I don't see
that changing
L279[17:13:42] <SporkWitch> better uses
for the sahara. You're worried about climate and farmland? Go for a
full Kynes-level reclamation project.
L280[17:14:00] <SporkWitch> the only
barrier to nuclear is the activists
L281[17:14:12] <FLHerne> yeah, but you
can't change the activists ;-)
L282[17:14:40] <SporkWitch> you can, but
it takes removing their puppetmasters from power; the activists
rarely think for themselves, they just parrot what they're
told
L283[17:15:52]
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(~Thunderbi@stnbmb0127w-ds01-172-234.dynamic.bellmts.net)
L284[17:23:53] <SporkWitch> back to video
game space: huzzah! my production is finally up and running and
turning me a profit! take that terran protectorate! stuff can
actually get built again and you're paying ME for it!
bwahahaha
L285[17:24:16] <SporkWitch> gonna have to
scale it up, though, need to produce more for faster
profits...
L286[17:33:52] <Althego> stream
started
L288[17:35:09] <SporkWitch> just barely
beat me :P
L289[17:37:48] <Mat2ch> Nice. Enough time
to get something to eat. :D
L290[17:38:28] <Althego> 1.5 min
L291[17:39:47] <Althego> abort
L292[17:39:52] <Althego> at t-46 sec
L293[17:40:18] <SporkWitch> :(
L294[17:43:42] <Althego> tomorrow
L296[17:46:04] <Mat2ch> Rather short
launch.
L297[17:49:12] <FLHerne> SporkWitch:
something I forgot about space solar - what orbits are you
using?
L298[17:49:50] <FLHerne> if it's GEO
they're stuck over the equator anyway, anything else and you'll
need a huge number of ground terminals to switch between
L299[17:49:51] <SporkWitch> as i mentioned
earlier, polar constellations seem to make the most sense, as it
would maximize sun exposure
L300[17:50:26] <FLHerne> low altitude and
you lose the benefit of not being night half the time, high
altitude and you have to avoid frying Starlink :p
L301[17:51:02] <FLHerne> I don't think
polar would work that way
L302[17:51:16] <FLHerne> you'd have to
shift plane a degree or so per day
L303[17:51:41] <SporkWitch> Assuming we're
not worrying about transmission losses (we're already ignoring
monetary cost), might be possible to have relays in geosync orbits,
assuming it's easier to have the farm sats keep pointing to one of
those. Dunno. Even in geosyncrhonous orbit, though, you've got much
more daylight time than on the surface, and no atmospheric
attenuation
L304[17:51:47] <FLHerne> which would
require an impractical amount of Δv
L305[17:52:21] <FLHerne> you have
atmospheric attenuation of the massive laser beam :p
L306[17:52:30] <SporkWitch> i'm fine with
frying starlink; DATA transmission makes much more sense with
cables and is a much better use of limited places to run said
cables
L307[17:52:35] <FLHerne> unless it's
attached to a space elevator
L308[17:53:25] <FLHerne> cables are pretty
much 2D, I don't think lack of space to run them is a problem
L309[17:53:46] <FLHerne> also I still
don't really see the point, everything works if you assume infinite
money and resources
L310[17:54:51] <FLHerne> and with a finite
amount, you can get a lot more energy at near-term costs with
ground-based solar without needing unreasonable amounts of
land
L311[17:55:09] <FLHerne> if we have
in-space manufacturing next century I can see it being
workable
L312[17:55:12] <SporkWitch> i'm referring
solely to collection. Transmission proposals generally use
microwave. 10GHz has excellent range even at lower power levels and
has minimal atmospheric attenuation
L313[17:56:19] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: lack
of space to run cables is absolutely a problem, though mostly in
cities. The other issue, though, is that especially with long-haul,
they're very susceptible to sabotage and accident (one of many
reasons that multibillion dollar saharan solar plan fell
through)
L314[17:56:53] <FLHerne> Microwave
receivers aren't going to help in cities
L315[17:57:21] <FLHerne> there isn't
enough area for a low-power-density one, and no-one is going to let
you target a death ray at their capital
L316[17:57:50] <SporkWitch> For data it's
worth it, without crazy advances in modulation technologies and
transceiver power/sensitivity, you've got serious botttlenecks,
especially since you still need to leave spectrum for other uses.
Fibre, on the other hand, allows for extremely high thrughput and
low latency, exactly what you need for data transmission.
L317[17:57:56] <FLHerne> The Sahara thing
has un-fallen-through again this year
L318[17:58:56] <SporkWitch> I like the
idea of starlink for very remote areas, but mostly i see it as
gimmick and orbital clutter.
L319[17:59:49] <SporkWitch> It's not like
most people that live in the middle of nowhere are serious gamers,
so low latency isn't really a big requirement, so traditional
satcom is fine without cluttering up the orbits.
L320[18:00:58] <SporkWitch> (though I
suppose part of that could be that serious gamers consider fast
internet access when deciding where to move, even when we want to
get away from cities... I'd give up super-fast internet to get away
from the cities, main reason for me to avoid total middle of
nowhere is that I'm still hoping to find the future mother of my
future children haha)
L321[18:01:00] <FLHerne> Have you tried to
use any modern website on a (GEO-level) high-latency
connection?
L322[18:01:05] <FLHerne> they just don't
work
L323[18:01:18] <FLHerne> everything is
loaded by JS in multiple round trips
L324[18:01:46] <FLHerne> so page load
times are like 10x the round-trip latency, or multiple seconds, and
then you hit timeouts and it all breaks
L325[18:02:10] <FLHerne> and yes that
could be solved by having non-stupid websites, but that ship sailed
20 years ago
L326[18:02:13] <SporkWitch> FLHerne: as
recently as 2013, yes. It's not fun, but for general usage it's
fine, which accounts for 90% or more of consumer internet usage. My
job in the USAF was radio and SATCOM
L327[18:02:37] <FLHerne> It's got a lot
worse since 2013
L328[18:02:53] <FLHerne> largely because
everything has to be 'responsive' for phones/tablets now
L329[18:03:28] <FLHerne> so many common
site frameworks pretty much assemble the page client-side to fit
the screen
L330[18:04:31] <FLHerne> the initial page
request gets you a blank page and several megabytes of Javascript
:-(
L331[18:04:59] <FLHerne> which then
fetches all the actual content over several more requests
L332[18:04:59] <SporkWitch> well we're
back to running fibre, which is my preference anyway
L333[18:05:10] <SporkWitch> starlink, by
its very nature, has a serious scalability issue.
L334[18:05:46] <SporkWitch> so again, i'm
fine with frying them with my orbital solar farm, and we free up
the sahara for a desert reclamation project to make the tree
huggers happy
L335[18:06:21] <SporkWitch> well, unless
they're the Ann Clayborne (Mars Trilogy) type... heh
L336[18:07:15] <SporkWitch> (Ann was the
character in the Mars Trilogy that opposed anything that would
change anything about the state of Mars as we found it)
L337[18:09:16] <SporkWitch> bah, i'm
sitting here trying to figure out why my silicon carbide factory is
starved for silicon, and the stupid miner assigned to it is just
sitting in space with its thumb up its butt >_< lol
L338[18:19:58] <FLHerne> Yeah, I liked
R/G/B Mars
L339[19:04:51] ⇦
Quits: comicsansgreenkirby
(~Thunderbi@stnbmb0127w-ds01-172-234.dynamic.bellmts.net) (Quit:
comicsansgreenkirby went and go died)
L340[19:56:08] ⇦
Quits: Althego (~Althego@86FF5EB4.dsl.pool.telekom.hu) (Quit: HMI
Module Alpha Humana on approach to Space Station
Mercury)
L341[19:56:40] ⇦
Quits: funkenstein (webchat@c-67-171-250-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
(Quit: webchat.esper.net)
L342[20:44:01] <XXCoder> ;mission
L343[20:44:02] <LunchBot> You steal your
sister's hair bleach to recolour your rocket. You discover that
aerospikes do not function well as air intakes.
L344[20:44:11] ⇦
Quits: rubdos (~rubdos@213.219.130.56) (Quit: WeeChat
3.5)
L345[20:44:37] <XXCoder> considering I
think bleach works for rockets, no wonder I was confused on
aerospikes..
L346[20:48:42]
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L347[20:49:12]
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L348[21:22:43]
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(webchat@c-67-171-250-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
L349[21:22:44] *
funkenstein blinks
L350[21:22:50] <funkenstein>
;mission
L351[21:22:50] <LunchBot> You attempt to
detonate the explodium sea. Contract successfully completed.
L352[21:35:54] <funkenstein> ;mission add
As you approach the surface, you think "Here we go
again..."
L353[21:35:54] <LunchBot> Added mission:
As you approach the surface, you think "Here we go
again..."
L354[21:36:02] <funkenstein>
;mission
L355[21:36:02] <LunchBot> You crash into
Kerbin with infinite fuel enabled. Your parachute fails at the very
end of the return to Kerbin, killing your crew.
L356[21:36:28] <funkenstein> I guess
that's how
L357[22:14:26] <darsie> Hydrogen peroxide
is a rocket fuel.
L358[22:14:41] <darsie> propellant.
oxidizer
L359[22:14:46] <darsie>
monopropellant
L360[22:15:51] <funkenstein> bill just
kicked his lander several meters into the air
L361[22:24:29] <Mat2ch> Well, I just
loaded a quicksave in KSP and it mixed quicksaves up and suddenly I
was in a rocket on the surface of Eve.
L362[22:24:47] <Mat2ch> I have no words
for this. But I made the ascend. :D
L363[22:25:11] <funkenstein> That is
beautiful and hilarious
L364[22:25:13] <Mat2ch> But I have the
feeling that there should've been no fuel in the rocket... even
though it had hundreds of parachutes.
L365[22:25:27] <funkenstein> hehe
L366[22:25:43] <Mat2ch> Also that save
game is two years and several point releases old.
L367[22:25:46] <funkenstein> I vaguely
remember you talking about eve recently so that makes sensew
L368[22:26:03] <Mat2ch> You understand how
long ago that was?
L369[22:26:07] <funkenstein> but I also
remember you saying you were low on fuel at the surface, I
thought
L370[22:26:13] <funkenstein> yes,
quite
L371[22:27:16] <funkenstein> welp.
hopefully there wasn't anything important you lost
L372[22:28:12] <Mat2ch> Nah
L373[22:28:31] <Mat2ch> I fire it up twice
a year now
L374[22:28:42] <Mat2ch> Eve is just too
hard and the performance too bad.
L375[22:28:48] <Mat2ch> Even on my
2700X
L376[22:29:23] <Mat2ch> I think the plan
was to land a robotic rover to refuel or something like that
L377[22:29:53] <Mat2ch> I like Minmus.
Everything on Minmus is easy ;)
L378[22:40:03] ⇦
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Leaving)
L379[23:00:19] ⇦
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timeout: 189 seconds)
L380[23:13:06] ⇦
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(~Fluburtur@2a01:e34:ecf7:d4f0:e882:dc41:8c01:4c65) (Read error:
Connection reset by peer)
L381[23:20:01] <funkenstein> apparently
nobody understood what I was asking yesterday, I CAN send science
back home in storage units by probe
L382[23:20:39] <funkenstein> sorry if my
mpl question being asked within a few minutes caused
confusion
L383[23:24:09] <SporkWitch> i mean, i did
answer that as well. "experiment storage units can only hold
experiments (e.g. crew report, goo results, etc.). You can use it
to transport it TO a lab," I didn't explicitly say you could
use it to return it to kerbin too, but I thought that was implied:
the device exists to store experiments for transport, as well as
easily collecting experiments from the modules that did them
L384[23:37:55] ⇦
Quits: jazzkutya
(~jazzkutya@catv-80-98-192-176.catv.fixed.vodafone.hu) (Quit:
Leaving)
L385[23:40:56]
⇨ Joins: mkv (~znc@186.57.226.163)
L386[23:42:02] ⇦
Quits: m4v (~znc@186.57.181.202) (Ping timeout: 189
seconds)
L387[23:42:02] ***
mkv is now known as m4v