OCLogs: 2021-05-31.log

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L20[03:32:11] <raptop> !mission

L21[03:32:12] <LunchBot> raptop: You are listening to The Shaggs all day. conspiracy theorists find proof that your mun landing was fake an actually took place on on moho.

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L47[11:05:04] <XXCoder> raptop: uhpoh found faked landing of yours tsk tsk

L48[11:05:09] <XXCoder> !mission

L49[11:05:09] <LunchBot> XXCoder: You attempt to turn off your SRBs. Wernher von Kerman ejects you from R&D on the nose of an SRB.

L50[11:37:26] <Althego> (local) leet time

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L52[12:15:07] <darsie> .

L53[12:19:23] <minas_tirith> darsie, do new launches these days have to coordinate with the orbits of existing satellites?

L54[12:20:00] <minas_tirith> There are many satellites up there

L55[12:21:59] <darsie> Of course. Satellite constellations are carefully planned. You can't just put them on random orbits. Also satellites must not collide with each other and their trajectories are constantly monitored and evasive maneuvers are executed to avoid collisions.

L56[12:22:53] <minas_tirith> So do all countries maintain charts of their satellites orbits?

L57[12:22:54] <darsie> The orbit of the ISS is especially kept clear of other satellites.

L58[12:23:04] <minas_tirith> Which are shared with everyone else for launches

L59[12:23:47] <darsie> I'm not sure if they interoperate completely, but yes. Spy satellite orbits may not be shared with enemies.

L60[12:24:00] <minas_tirith> Obivously

L61[12:24:05] <minas_tirith> Secret satellites are a problem

L62[12:24:17] <darsie> There's ##space in libera.

L63[12:24:22] <Althego> these days? that was the norm for decades

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L67[12:37:56] <FLHerne> l33t time

L68[12:38:09] <darsie> .

L69[12:38:40] <FLHerne> minas_tirith: The Atlas launch recently was delayed a few minutes to avoid a conjunction with other things

L70[12:39:42] <darsie> Why not set the nomital launch time right in the first place?

L71[12:39:48] <darsie> nominal*

L72[12:39:59] <minas_tirith> Maybe they got new data

L73[12:40:09] <minas_tirith> about some orbit

L74[12:40:44] <FLHerne> minas_tirith: SpaceX filing from the other month https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/SpaceX-OW-Ex-Parte.pdf

L75[12:41:10] <FLHerne> describes the process for addressing possible collisions in quite a bit of detail

L76[12:43:49] <minas_tirith> "autonomous collision avoidance system"

L77[12:43:59] <minas_tirith> is that a real thing or is it just ai marketing nonsense

L78[12:44:43] <Mat2ch> Probably a real thing, but not AI

L79[12:45:17] <Mat2ch> Predicting an collision is easy, can be done automatically.

L80[12:45:32] <Mat2ch> If the probability gets over a certain threshold you do a manouver

L81[12:45:34] <FLHerne> "attachment B" is the interesting bit

L82[12:45:40] <minas_tirith> Mat2ch, like how is that possible without having possibly realtime data regarding other satellites orbits?

L83[12:46:06] <FLHerne> "the maneuver threshold for Starlink satellites is 1e-5 and that maneuvers occur approximately 12 hours before the predicted closest approachof the satellites"

L84[12:46:26] <FLHerne> "if a maneuver was needed, typically a single in-track burn would be conducted to reduce collision probability"

L85[12:47:01] <Mat2ch> minas_tirith: the other satellites don't do erratic stuff. The tend to stay on their path

L86[12:47:02] <FLHerne> sounds fairly simple, if it thinks there's a possible conjunction it'll burn prograde or retrograde slightly to make there not be one

L87[12:47:12] <minas_tirith> "18SPCS reported actual miss distance as 1,120 m." wtf how is that not a close call

L88[12:47:17] <Mat2ch> so you can calculate in advance where they will be and where you will be at a certain time

L89[12:47:25] <Mat2ch> usually at the crossing line of the two orbits

L90[12:47:40] <FLHerne> Two objects a metre across passing a kilometer apart?

L91[12:48:17] <FLHerne> In space, where all trajectories are predictable near-perfectly

L92[12:48:26] <minas_tirith> FLHerne, 1 km sounds very close for orbits but idk

L93[12:48:39] <Mat2ch> it does, but it isn't really

L94[12:48:41] <FLHerne> I mean, if that's a close call I'm probably experiencing a thousand close calls from being hit by lorries right now

L95[12:48:43] <minas_tirith> Like 1km is very tiny compared to the total area and volume of orbits

L96[12:49:00] <Mat2ch> but it is huge compared to the size of the satellites

L97[12:49:09] <FLHerne> "Both 18 SPCSand LeoLabs reported final Pc below 1e-20—one in one hundred million million million"

L98[12:49:10] <minas_tirith> Its true but what I was thinking is that

L99[12:49:37] <minas_tirith> Are orbits really that accurate that 1km might not accidentally result from some random errors?

L100[12:51:09] <FLHerne> Yes

L101[12:51:15] <FLHerne> 1km is a lot

L102[12:52:45] <minas_tirith> FLHerne, whats the threshold for a true close call?

L103[12:52:53] <Mat2ch> minas_tirith: that's why the have keep-out zones around the satellites to minimize exactly this.

L104[12:53:59] <minas_tirith> Mat2ch, whats the "geometry" of these keep out zones? Is it close to like each satellite having a particular altitude band to themselves or some more complicated shape?

L105[12:55:46] <Mat2ch> I guess you could make a bubble around it, but to make the calculation easier you can use a box

L106[12:56:29] <FLHerne> minas_tirith: Looks like SpaceX are using 1-in-10000 probability of collision as their threshold for things to avoid

L107[12:56:41] <minas_tirith> FLHerne, oh okay

L108[12:56:53] <minas_tirith> I meant using a distance or some expected distance

L109[12:56:56] <FLHerne> What distance you're ok with there depends on how precisely you know the trajectories of the two objects

L110[12:57:06] <minas_tirith> Whats the closest two satellites have been known to fly by without collision?

L111[12:57:13] <Mat2ch> https://satellitesafety.gsfc.nasa.gov/

L112[12:57:20] <FLHerne> I mean, if you know *exactly* where each one is, you could fly them within a few centimetres and be fine

L113[12:57:30] <minas_tirith> haha

L114[12:57:39] <Mat2ch> they have a real life example here and the safety zone was set to 400 m

L115[12:58:37] <Mat2ch> minas_tirith: closest? Look at what SpaceX does with their Starlink sats. The literally bump into each other. :D

L116[12:59:56] <minas_tirith> I didn't know of "trains" of satellites before

L117[12:59:57] <minas_tirith> Thats interesting

L118[13:02:13] <FLHerne> https://www.space.com/dead-chinese-russian-space-junk-near-miss-leolabs <- near miss by 25m ± 18m

L119[13:02:32] <darsie> I think satellites usually can not measure how close a flyby is. In one collision the operators knew about the encounter but thought it would be a flyby.

L120[13:02:37] <minas_tirith> Wow

L121[13:02:40] <FLHerne> I don't think things with near-zero relative velocity really count

L122[13:02:48] <minas_tirith> 25m is basically almost brushing past

L123[13:02:49] <FLHerne> Otherwise every docking is a collision :p

L124[13:03:15] <minas_tirith> On that note yeah wtf

L125[13:03:20] <minas_tirith> Dockings would need insane accuracy

L126[13:03:34] <FLHerne> Yeah, 50,000km/h at 25m is not a great idea

L127[13:04:32] <FLHerne> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51299638 <- these missed by 12-30m

L128[13:04:50] <minas_tirith> Yeah these are scary distances

L129[13:05:28] <FLHerne> Worth noting that they're only a couple of metres across, so even at within that radius it's only something like a 1% chance of an actual collision

L130[13:06:04] <darsie> ormally I guess collisions are simply avoided by not intersecting orbits, like making them higher or lower, or a little elliptic so one orbit passes over/under another.

L131[13:06:07] <minas_tirith> Yeah but compared tot he accuracy to which the orbits can be controlled I imagine its a scary figure

L132[13:06:27] <darsie> Normally*

L133[13:07:28] <darsie> Only when they intersect they need to avoid collisions by controlling the phase.

L134[13:07:57] <darsie> It gets a bit crowded at the poles, I guess.

L135[13:08:46] <darsie> When you have several defunct satellites on decaying orbits it's a matter of luck.

L136[13:10:54] <minas_tirith> Yeah, who tracks the dead satellites?

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L140[13:27:00] <darsie> idk who does it, but it's done. Once you know their orbit you just have to observe them every once in a while with a radar.

L141[13:27:54] <darsie> If Pe is >1000 km, I guess one observation per year would suffice.

L142[13:28:23] <Althego> probably not much change at that altitude

L143[13:28:26] <Althego> maybe from solar wind

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L146[15:25:30] <raptop> https://beautifulmars.tumblr.com/post/652710527936708608/hipod-31-may-2021-impactful-ada-ada-is-a-very

L147[15:26:30] <Althego> hah

L148[15:26:38] <Althego> i was afraid they did some programming in ada for mars probes

L149[15:28:46] <Althego> the hirise reminds me. nasa got two never launched hubble sized space telescopes from some intelligence agency. i guess they are outdated. one is going to be an infra red telescope (wfirst, now named roman), the other one is not decided. there are ideas to send it to mars

L150[15:28:54] <Althego> hirise is already phenomenal

L151[15:29:15] <Althego> but that is just a tiny one compared these

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L156[16:00:50] <umaxtu> the NRO might not like that, it would showcase the capabilities of their keyhole sats against ground targets instead of stars

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L159[16:10:33] <raptop> Well, given a certain photo leak, we already know the capabilities

L160[16:10:44] <umaxtu> lol

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L162[16:11:24] <umaxtu> and since when has something being public knowledge stopped intelligence agencies from having a stick up their asses?

L163[16:13:08] <raptop> okay, true

L164[16:13:51] <Althego> is that a asafe word?

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L166[16:40:23] <raptop> doubtful

L167[16:40:34] * raptop sighs and hands umaxtu a ticket with a one-credit fine

L168[16:45:15] * umaxtu swears a couple more times and then wonders off to the bathroom

L169[16:45:46] <Alanonzander> to listen to "mini-tunes" ?

L170[16:50:40] <umaxtu> sure

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L172[18:05:10] <TwistenX> I genuinely hate Career mode with a passion

L173[18:05:26] <Althego> hehe

L174[18:05:31] <Althego> what happened?

L175[18:05:46] <TwistenX> Everytime I leave the atmosphere and come back, I'm always moving too fast for my mk16 parachute to deploy.

L176[18:05:59] <Althego> use the drogue?

L177[18:06:02] <TwistenX> then my kerbal dies

L178[18:06:08] <Althego> i always add one, quite small, can fit it under the main

L179[18:06:10] <TwistenX> I haven't unlocked it yet

L180[18:06:35] <Althego> the capsule alone is light enough to slow down in time

L181[18:06:43] <TwistenX> i need to perform """research""" and collect """"""important data""""""

L182[18:07:23] <TwistenX> such as how many kerbals can i kraken in a few minutes

L183[18:09:53] * darsie is stuck with his comet sample return mission.

L184[18:10:13] <darsie> The comet is on a solar escape trajectory, so ...

L185[18:10:16] <TwistenX> darsie: then do it

L186[18:10:21] <darsie> yeah ...

L187[18:10:21] <TwistenX> quickly

L188[18:10:26] <darsie> It's tough.

L189[18:10:53] <TwistenX> well, nothing can actually escape Kerbol since it's official that it's Sphere of Influence is infinite

L190[18:10:55] <darsie> I upgraded it to a comet capture mission :).

L191[18:10:57] <Althego> palpatine: do it

L192[18:11:58] <darsie> TwistenX: idk what kind of ellipse KSP thinks of when v>v_esc.

L193[18:12:14] <raptop> hyperbola!

L194[18:12:29] <darsie> I've seen ellipses cut off when they extended beyond the SOI.

L195[18:12:35] <TwistenX> i once had a random class-e asteroid spawn in a orbit around Kerbin that would eventually impact it and i just time warped and watched the asteroid aerodynamics not work

L196[18:13:02] <TwistenX> By the way, is there any F, G, and H class asteroids in KSP?

L197[18:13:07] <darsie> impact the atmosphere?

L198[18:13:25] <darsie> Comets

L199[18:13:48] <darsie> Haven't seen asteroids >E.

L200[18:14:52] <TwistenX> I thought I've seen an F before, but I might be wrong

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L202[18:16:38] <FLHerne> only up to E (without mods, anyway)

L203[18:16:52] <TwistenX> oh

L204[18:17:12] <TwistenX> what's the biggest you can get with mods?

L205[18:17:43] <darsie> Class I without mods: https://i.postimg.cc/XVVvQ7Jd/screenshot484.png

L206[18:17:54] <darsie> comet

L207[18:18:06] <darsie> Gargantuan

L208[18:18:16] <darsie> I wish they had gravity.

L209[18:20:04] <darsie> Then again ... elliptic orbits beyond the Hill sphere are not too realistic ...

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L211[18:21:36] <TwistenX> wowow

L212[18:23:03] <TwistenX> wait, so they just skipped class f g and h?

L213[18:23:09] <darsie> nah

L214[18:23:38] <darsie> I just held onto that I comet.

L215[18:23:53] <darsie> Because it was even bigger than what I've seen before.

L216[18:24:39] <darsie> I have a class H (gargantuan), too.

L217[18:25:15] <darsie> I have to redesign my comet pusher.

L218[18:26:03] <umaxtu> wait, KSP has comets now?

L219[18:26:17] <darsie> Class I without mods: https://i.postimg.cc/XVVvQ7Jd/screenshot484.png

L220[18:26:54] <umaxtu> I've got OPM installed in my current game, seems to severely limit rock generation

L221[18:27:51] <TwistenX> KSP's had comets since the "Shared Horizons" update, I'm pretty sure

L222[18:27:58] <flayer> lalalalalalala

L223[18:28:27] <TwistenX> ok

L224[18:29:59] <umaxtu> oh, apparently its Kopernicus' fault

L225[18:31:20] <darsie> umaxtu: The white stripe between my rocket and the navball is a comet: https://i.postimg.cc/ZZk6x6md/screenshot487.png

L226[18:31:32] <umaxtu> nice

L227[18:35:36] <darsie> closer: https://i.postimg.cc/fZryvNmg/screenshot311.png

L228[18:36:07] <TwistenX> wow

L229[18:40:12] <flayer> so much relative speed

L230[18:40:23] <darsie> yeah

L231[18:41:33] <darsie> I made some pics of the flyby, but can't find them.

L232[18:42:46] <Althego> new horizons

L233[18:44:04] <TwistenX> haha new horizons go nyoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom

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