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L18[04:18:39] <packbart> my prop planes
tend to veer off the runway, even with balanced rotations. meh.
hm.
L19[04:19:18] <raptop> gremlins switching
prop rotation in between pressing launch and loading on the
runway
L20[04:20:29] <packbart> right, I'll better
check. the aero overlay did right-ish, though
L21[04:21:51] *
raptop is joking, but I'm guessing something with the
wheels?
L22[04:22:06] <packbart> yeah, I read
things about friction controls on the forum
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L25[04:26:39] *
raptop unsure
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L27[04:50:15] <packbart> with friction on
the front wheel turned down to 0, at least it (barely) lifts off.
but man, those turboshafts guzzle fuel, compared to two
Goliaths
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L30[04:54:34] *
raptop wants to say that there are things you can do with RPM and
pitch
L31[04:58:40] <packbart> yeah, I have the
torque bound to main throttle and prop pitch to wheel throttle.
still, the same plane with two Goliath engines was much faster with
better range. anyway, I'll tinker a bit with it and maybe search
the forum for inspirations
L32[05:13:16] <Althego> normally a prop
plane should be more fuel efficient than a jet, if it moves in the
correct speed regime
L33[05:14:47] <raptop> Sure, but props are
too slow to benefit from centrifugal lift
L34[05:18:28] <Althego> hehe japanese
wooden satellite
L36[05:26:49] <Althego> more like a
rover
L37[05:27:15] <Althego> maybe call it a
strider
L38[05:27:17] ⇨
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L39[05:27:41] <Althego> (hopefully without
blaze canister :))
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L42[06:21:48] <Althego> looks a bit like
somebody combined a jamson type body from ghost in the shell with
hal 9000 :)
L43[06:21:52] <Althego> *jameson
L45[06:38:29] <packbart> still not quit
sure what to optimize it for. yellow or pink line length?
L46[06:40:43] <Althego> hehe, i only tried
the electric engines
L47[06:41:11] <Althego> but the prop blades
behave strangely in the editor, and you have to do all kinds of
clicks to get them in proper orientation
L48[06:41:21] <Althego> and that behavior
even changed with versions
L49[06:41:30] <packbart> yeah, and symmetry
doesn't help a bit
L51[06:46:40] <packbart> given that I have
almost no experience building planes in KSP and just slapped a few
parts together
L52[06:48:24] <packbart> take off is easy.
now to get it back down again
L53[06:52:31] <Althego> hehe
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L55[07:10:35] <packbart> landed :)
L56[07:17:43] <packbart> (ok, I
"cheated" and used MJ's autoland, so I just had to press
h or n to adjust the prop pitch to achieve whatever speed MJ was
targeting)
L57[07:22:44] <Althego> pilot entry:
autoland is too rough. maintenance entry: autoland is not installed
on this aircraft
L58[07:25:08] <packbart> yeah, I was rather
surprised that it actually worked. MJ tends to slam the plane
either into into the runway lights or the mountains (depending on
selected approach)
L59[07:25:20] <packbart> so maybe the
manually controlled propeller helped
L60[07:25:57] <packbart> I usually land my
science plane on the grass next to the runway
L61[07:26:07] <packbart> and bounce a
little :)
L62[07:26:26] <Althego> normally the end of
runway is marked by those stripes. so a proper landing should
happen a bit after those
L63[07:27:15] <packbart> for that you'd
need to tune MJ's PID parameters to the plane. it's no fits-all
automagic
L64[07:27:57] <packbart> MechJeb has its
limits and they're usually fatal
L65[07:28:04] <Althego> mrax exists for
this kind of stuff :)
L66[07:28:07] <Althego> mrac
L67[07:28:10] <Althego> hehe not marx
L68[07:28:55] <Althego> based on what
mechjeb can already do, it shouldnt be too hard to add a some kind
of adaptive control
L69[07:32:46] <packbart> the code is a bit
overgrown. you can make out several different coding styles in it.
still, works good enough for the most part
L70[07:34:21] <packbart> ugh, "aim
camera" at one of the prop blades is quite a dizzying
experience :)
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L72[07:55:57] <Althego> hehe flat earther
rants about physics. mr sensible watching it: so... you are
listening to glasses of water? ... right...
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L80[09:42:12] <Mat2ch> ah, SpaceX now makes
their own oxygen. ;)
L81[09:42:19] <Althego> finally
L82[09:42:35] <Althego> then they probably
they make their own nitrogen too
L83[09:42:49] <Althego> if it is done by
air condensation
L84[09:43:09] <Mat2ch> And distilling
oxygen is easier than I thought. You just need to clean the
incoming air, compress it and then expand it into a tall standing
tube and let gravity do the rest.
L88[09:46:59] <Althego> ah elon said two
engines need repairs. so that is why they couldnt fly
L89[09:47:39] <Althego> i wonder if it is
the concrete debris again
L90[09:50:02] <Mat2ch> :(
L91[09:50:04] <Althego> hehe tim complained
about this taking a long time, so then he can go home instead of
camping there
L92[09:50:15] <Mat2ch> That means more
static fires.
L93[09:50:16] <Althego> ok not campiong, in
a hotel
L94[09:50:25] <Althego> which cause more
engine swaps
L96[09:51:11] <Althego> this would mean no
flight next week
L97[09:51:28] <Althego> (scroll up)
L98[09:52:38] <Tank2333> i guess they
should think about upgrading the launchpad
L99[09:52:40] <Mat2ch> yeah, this will take
time. No flight next week. Maybe static fire :/
L100[09:52:49] <Mat2ch> Well, SN10 could
be placed on Pad A.
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L102[10:17:22] <Althego> overlapping tests
between the two would speed up things
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L105[10:54:49] <Mat2ch> and if everything
goes wrong then SN10 will fly before SN9 :D
L106[10:55:28] <Althego> hehe
L107[10:55:34] <Althego> or both explode
on the pad
L108[10:55:45] <Althego> that would be
rather suboptimal
L109[10:56:21] <Mat2ch> But partially
suborbital...
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L111[10:57:41] <Althego> heh, a
geocentrist. these are rare, even falt earthers are rare, but
geocentrists are maybe around 1% of the flatties by number
L112[10:59:32] <packbart> they were the
norm before Galileo
L113[11:00:09] <Althego> so you would
expect all of them to be dead now :)
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L115[11:06:56] <Althego> ah yes, has the
cognitive capabilities of a dead person
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L122[12:19:28] <packbart> even at full
pitch-up, it loses altitude fast while banking because the blade
pitch is symmetric on both sides but their AoA isn't
L123[12:19:55] <packbart> or at least I
think that's what it is. maybe should have turned off SAS
L124[12:22:21] <Althego> these are
feathered
L125[12:22:26] <Althego> not making any
thrust
L126[12:23:11] <Althego> ah just in the
beginning
L127[12:23:51] <Althego> anyway they look
strange to me
L128[12:24:29] <Althego> ok maybe later i
try look into the turboprop thingie, never tried it
L129[12:28:19] <packbart> the engine
driving the propellers shouldn't really matter. but the blade pitch
needs to be varied with speed because they have a rather narrow
optimal AoA angle
L130[12:28:49] <packbart> that's what I
gathered. I still don't really have a clue what I'm doing there
;)
L131[12:28:57] <packbart> at least it
stays in the air
L132[12:32:15] <packbart> 200m/s ain't bad
for a ~60t plane. although the double-Goliath easily reaches 300+
and consumes much less fuel
L133[12:35:13] <Althego> yes, i learned
that the hard way when i tried to build a stop prop engine some
versions ago, before the prop blades existed
L134[12:35:26]
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L135[12:35:28] <Webchat233> hello
L136[12:35:30] <Mod9000> Hello,
Webchat233
L137[12:35:33] <Webchat233> hello
guys]
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L139[12:35:49] <Althego> i was like, woho,
go for max thrust. then max speed was low because thrust fell off
fast as the craft was getting faster
L140[12:35:56] <Althego> hhe
L141[12:36:19] <Althego> so then i
decreased pitch, initial 0 speed thrust was lower but i could
fly
L142[12:36:32] <packbart> I have the pitch
bound to the wheel throttle and it's really just a few h/n key
strokes between "good thrust" and "no thrust"
and "reverse"
L143[12:36:34] <Althego> and amazingly
this all worked out by the standard aero elements
L144[12:36:54] <Althego> i think wheel
throttle is not set by default
L145[12:37:01] <Althego> and not much
place to bind it anyway
L146[12:37:10] <Althego> left on the
keyboard
L147[12:37:22] <packbart> so I think
automation is the way to go for the prop blade pitch
L148[12:37:31] <Althego> in reality you
have 3 throttles
L149[12:37:40] <Althego> and the pilot
controls them
L150[12:37:48] <Althego> what was the
third, mixture maybe?
L151[12:38:19] <packbart> yeah, I use the
main throttle for the engine torque. not sure if I really need it.
I left it full-on in this test
L152[12:39:22] <Althego> so anyway we dont
have a third throttle anyway
L153[12:40:06] <packbart> well, you could
bind something to "wheel steering"
L154[12:40:13] <packbart> j/l
L155[12:40:22] <Althego> those are already
taken by rcs
L156[12:41:00] <Althego> but actually i
had quite good experience with fixed pitch props
L157[12:41:27] <Althego> but maybe the
lack of pitch controls explaines why i had such a hard time flating
on duna
L158[12:41:36] <packbart> the heavy thing
didn't fly too well with fixed pitch
L159[12:41:46] <packbart> or maybe that's
just my lack of pilot experience
L160[12:41:49] <Althego> i still want to
make an infinite delta v duna plane that unfolds from a
fairing
L161[12:42:16] <Althego> maybe in an hour
i am going to try and build a similar thing
L162[12:46:11] <packbart> I need to drive
to the office now, anyway. a delivery arrived and I've got a
question from a coworker that I can't answer with the passwords I
have on my laptop at home yet
L163[12:46:47] <Althego> hehe
L164[12:50:51] <Althego> so supposedly
throttle (black) changes engine speed, the blue changes the blade
angles and, mixture (red) changes fuel ratio, because at higher
altitudes there is less oxygen to go with
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L166[13:05:41] <Althego> nanowar of steel
new music teaser 2021. i am speed
L167[13:05:54]
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L168[13:07:19] <Althego> SPOILER: You will
be disappointed. And if you won't, then WE will be
disappointed.
L169[13:07:35] <Althego> well, i am
disappointed already. or they are joiking and they will do
something else
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L176[13:43:18] <Althego> there seems to be
a console update in the works. so i guess no 1.11.1 for a
while
L177[13:44:17] <Althego> let's see what i
can do with the turboprop
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L182[14:55:00] <Althego> hehe, the landing
gear lights "scatter" thing around the lamps is always
on. the actual light on object works as intended
L183[14:57:57] <Althego> and the
navigation light things are always white
L184[14:58:00] <Althego> i am sad
L185[14:59:59] <Althego> unless i change
them manually after start
L186[15:00:03] <Althego> but this is so
annoying
L187[15:12:41] <Althego> lol i changed the
deploy angle from 60. and now it is imposible to set it back to
sixty even with numeric input
L188[15:12:50] <Althego> because it is
either 59.39999 or 61
L189[15:29:14]
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L190[15:30:58] <Althego> i added separate
wheel control keys. mapped blade angle to wheel control. direction
doesnt matter angle always increases lol
L191[15:31:55] <Althego> the cursor keys
should be the wheel control by default
L192[15:32:11] <Althego> and the camera
control on keyboard wherever. maybe on the 2x3 keys aboce
L193[15:32:34] <Althego> anyway this
release seems to be more bugged than the previous
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L197[17:00:44] <Althego> but the mole
failed
L198[17:01:03] <Althego> it just couldnt
dig
L199[17:01:12] <Althego> after all this
time they gave up on it
L200[17:02:05] <Althego> it couldnt go
down even completely buried and the scoop on top of it
L201[17:03:23] <Mat2ch> what have we
learnt from this? If you wanna dig, get a digger. :D
L202[17:04:17] <Mat2ch> flight TFRs for
Monday to Wednesday. They are very optimistic here.
L204[17:04:58] <nate> And this is why KSP
taught me to always put wheels on everything so you can relocate if
need be
L206[17:05:29] <Althego> it landed in a
huge area with similar properties
L207[17:05:38] <Althego> in fact they
chose the most boring flattest terrain they could
L208[17:06:55] <nate> Sure but it's a
planet that every drone'd expedition to still manages to find
something new, gotta prepare for all contingencies!
L209[17:07:33] <packbart> they didn't pack
a Kerbal Engineer
L210[17:07:37] <Althego> hehe
L211[17:08:39]
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L212[17:08:55] <Althego> it seems the prop
angle thing does help. i can get something like 50 m/s extra out of
it if i change the angle mid flight to smaller
L213[17:09:15] <Althego> as for the launch
i would still refer tothe engine change
L214[17:09:21] <Althego> maybe they put
back the same
L215[17:09:31] <Althego> there doesnt seem
to be enough time
L216[17:09:37] <packbart> the PAW displays
the prop AoA which is useful
L217[17:10:00] <umaxtu> PAW?
L218[17:10:04] <Althego> but i cant
compare the engine fuel flow rate to a jet, it is in completely
different units
L219[17:10:08] <Althego> part action
window
L220[17:10:12] <packbart> umaxtu: the
right-click window
L221[17:10:16] <Althego> i call it a
context menuy, because that is what it is
L222[17:10:17] <umaxtu> aw
L223[17:11:02] <packbart> Althego: yeah, I
watched the "time til empty" on the fuel tank with the
Alternate Resource Panel mod
L224[17:11:12] <Althego> hehe
L225[17:11:27] <packbart> those timers are
the only thing I use it for but it's really handy sometimes
L226[17:12:11] <Althego> and ultimately
adding separate wheel controls didnt help, since the normal
controls still remained wheel controls too. and i am going to keep
it that way. so i caved in and used the translation control
L227[17:12:17] <packbart> with two Goliath
it would show some 3+h at ~300m/s while it was less than an hour
with the four turboshaft engines at 150-200m/s
L228[17:12:28] <Althego> but i still think
you props are the wrong way around
L229[17:12:35] <packbart> hm
L230[17:12:39] <Althego> i think it doesnt
matter too much for the game
L231[17:12:51] <packbart> but the pink and
yellow lines point in the right direction
L232[17:13:13] <packbart> I matched their
rotational variant to the engine
L233[17:13:20] <Althego> but in reality
the blades are twisted. so the high angle of attack slow part
should be in the base and the small angle of attack part should be
at the tip
L234[17:13:31] <Althego> i always have to
rotate them manually
L235[17:13:39] <Althego> to get the look i
would expect from a real plane
L236[17:13:48] <packbart> well, I did
press "w" before attaching them
L237[17:14:15] <packbart> they look right
at 0° and prodruce no thrust as expected
L238[17:15:04] <Althego> and i cry for the
poor navigation lights
L239[17:15:07] <Althego> they are
useless
L240[17:15:11] <Althego> always turn into
white
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L246[17:21:46] <packbart> Althego: this is
the one:
https://formularfetischisten.de/~packbart/temp/kspa1.craft
- shoul be cleared of mod stuff. rotor torque on main throttle,
prop pitch on wheel throttle
L247[17:22:03] <packbart> the blades look
ok to my untrained ey
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L249[17:23:27] <packbart> max speed about
220m/s
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L252[17:24:15] <Althego> sorry for the
sound, listening to yt in the background
L253[17:25:13] <Althego> so every time i
have to rotate the blades 180 deg, change the deploy angle to
reverse, and for the other side obviously use the other variant,
along with hcanging the engine direction
L254[17:25:40] <Althego> i dont get why i
have to do all this for proper attachment
L255[17:26:50] <packbart> yeah, and if you
detach and reattach them you need to click "deploy"
again
L256[17:29:23] <Althego> so the default
deploy goes in the wrong direction, towards maximum drag. i want
the undeployed to go towards minimum drag, that is why i change the
deploy direction
L257[17:29:29] <Althego> the maximum drag
config is pointless
L258[17:29:39] <Althego> but you can glide
well with the featherd
L259[17:30:18] <Althego> yes looking at it
now, the blades are ok
L260[17:30:26] <packbart> hm. wait, this
is the 4x4 bladed one. the last one I used had 4x8 blades. doesn't
matter much, though
L262[17:33:07] <packbart> a bit better
take-off performance but otherwise handles mostly the same
L263[17:34:27] <packbart> prop blade AoA
of about 9° seems to be best
L264[17:35:53] <packbart> the rotor RPM in
the 8-blade config varies much more with blade pitch than with the
4-blade. odd
L265[17:38:56] <Althego> goes up to 190 at
2km
L266[17:39:08] <Althego> that is what i
could get with 2 props and tuning the blade angle for speed
L267[17:39:36] <Althego> the center of
lift is too far behind the center of mass, so hard to steer
L268[17:40:21] <packbart> yeah, I know.
and the landing gear is maybe too far behind the center of mass,
too
L269[17:40:29] <Althego> ok you have more
fuel in the center tank than in mine
L270[17:40:32] <packbart> but I didn't
want to put a wing over the windows :)
L271[17:40:42] <Althego> ah yes i hate
this
L272[17:40:49] <Althego> something is
wrong with the lift of the wings
L273[17:40:53] <Althego> every time i get
stuff like this
L274[17:40:58] <Althego> wing on the
windows
L275[17:41:06] <Althego> or too far
forward close to the cabin
L276[17:41:20] <Althego> but that is how i
get realistic performance
L277[17:41:36] <Althego> if i make it look
like a real plane the indicators are off and it doesnt fly
well
L278[17:42:04] <packbart> now that I look
at them both, the 4x4 actually handles better than the 4x8
L279[17:42:11] <Althego> scott (35 minutes
ago)
L280[17:43:44] <packbart> because of the
more constant RPM. huh. I wonder why it varies so much more
L281[17:44:21] <packbart> anyway, thanks
for testing. I guess I'll just have to try flying more. the
atmosphere ususally is just that thing between the launchpad and
space in my game :)
L282[17:44:32] <Althego> hehe
L283[17:44:46] <Althego> some people build
planes only, or rovers only
L284[17:44:52] <Althego> and they dont
even care about space
L285[17:45:06] <packbart> some even build
boats and submarines
L286[17:45:21] <Althego> i think of myself
as one of the first submarinesrs
L287[17:45:35] <Althego> i dived in every
ocean in ksp
L288[17:46:08] <Althego> ok at that time
there was no way to maneuver with the sub on eve
L289[17:46:21] <Althego> but now with
electric props, it should be possible
L290[17:46:44] <packbart> if they would
work under water - which they don't, apparently :(
L291[17:47:10] <packbart> (the prop blades
that is, still can use elevons on a rotor)
L293[17:51:18] <Althego> lol even jets
work under water
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L296[18:39:35] <Althego> !nela
L298[18:39:54] <Althego> ok, things are
heating up this january in the rocket business
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L304[19:23:04] <Althego> hehe i see why
the flag bug is there. the kerbal is sliding slowly towards the
flag and tips it over
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L307[20:16:44] <Althego> dual wield a
piano and a typewrite. of course
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L309[21:19:35] *
flayer can't remember when he built the last MOXIE
L310[21:20:34] <Althego> there is only
one
L311[21:23:16] <Althego> at least there is
a new what about it
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L322[21:57:48] <flayer> i just haven't
build one ever since i installed the upgrades
L323[21:58:00] <flayer> built*
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L325[22:00:39] <flayer> about 30%
terraformed
L326[22:01:04] <flayer> sol 229
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L331[22:18:36] <flayer> i'm inclined to
just kind of let it idle now
L332[22:18:49] <flayer> rather than
expanding continuously
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