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L8[03:16:22] <XXCoder> wow https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-created-a-fossil-fuel-free-jet-engine-prototype
L9[03:20:38] <Althego> forgot to mention microwaves need huge batteries
L10[03:34:15] <Mat2ch> Plasmajet does sound like: Heavy emissions due to transform of the air
L11[03:42:01] <hatrix> bringing some planes to Laythe https://i.imgur.com/WciqGOj.png
L12[03:42:28] <hatrix> not sure the rocket will fly though
L13[03:52:59] <hatrix> this thing is impossible to steer correctly
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L15[04:02:36] <XXCoder> woww https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-created-a-fossil-fuel-free-jet-engine-prototype
L16[04:02:38] <XXCoder> Althego:
L17[04:03:07] <XXCoder> erm same link nm sorry lol
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L19[04:28:37] <hatrix> how can I improve my design to get through Kerbin's ascent?
L20[04:29:23] <Althego> go straight up until 60 km
L21[04:43:46] <XXCoder> alt what do you think that jet engine byproducts are
L22[04:43:56] <XXCoder> im not too sure heh since its just microwave and air
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L24[04:53:35] <hatrix> I'll put a fairing, I can't circularize
L25[04:55:57] <hatrix> ah can't, too big
L26[04:58:11] <Althego> you can always shrink the wings, like using biplanes and such
L27[04:59:12] <Althego> at least it is symmetrical with the two planes, so you could put huge wings at th bottom of the firststage to compensate
L28[04:59:52] <hatrix> i'll try the gravity turn at ~20km
L29[05:00:11] <hatrix> hopefully it won't topple over
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L31[05:10:59] <hatrix> even with huge wings it doesn't fly correctly :|
L32[05:18:06] <darsie> hatrix: How about flying up with jets and then ignite rockets, maybe use a rapier?
L33[05:18:51] <hatrix> I'm thinking of doing it in three steps, first the rocket and then the 2 ssto
L34[05:18:54] <hatrix> might be easier
L35[05:25:39] <darsie> Ahh, they are SSTOs. Good idea to use them to go to orbit :).
L36[05:27:17] <hatrix> ok, made it! https://i.imgur.com/ko4hBj6.png
L37[05:27:21] <hatrix> more huge wings was the solution
L38[05:27:49] <Althego> but why do you need to use a rocket to put an ssto into orbit?
L39[05:27:59] <hatrix> I'll get them to laythe
L40[05:28:34] <darsie> You could dock to a carrier in orbit if they can't go there on their own.
L41[05:28:43] <Althego> exactly
L42[05:28:53] <hatrix> I thought it'd be faster to just launch the whole thing
L43[05:35:56] <Althego> lol random youtube recommendation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoHjfCMKHjE
L44[05:35:56] <kmath> YouTube - I Want To Be A Robot (Czechoslovakia 1986)
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L48[06:49:41] <Lyneira> That's a very interesting advancement to read about
L49[06:50:41] <Lyneira> The jet design generating thrust by turning air into plasma
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L53[06:55:26] <Althego> thunder. that is pressure change (thrust) by generateing plasma
L54[06:56:33] <Lyneira> It's one part of the puzzle but I think the biggest hurdle will be the energy storage
L55[06:56:41] <Althego> as always
L56[06:56:58] <Althego> or you just add a pedal to each seat :)
L57[06:57:05] <Lyneira> Nothing we have stores energy as densely as fossil fuels do atm
L58[06:57:28] <Althego> uranium :)
L59[06:58:03] <Lyneira> Fair enough but I don't think we want a fleet of flying nuclear reactors around the world
L60[06:58:13] <Althego> true
L61[06:59:19] <Lyneira> And even if you could get batteries closer to fossil fuel energy density, fossil fuel has the big advantage of being gone once used up and making the airplane (a lot) lighter and more efficient
L62[06:59:45] <Lyneira> Batteries are still weighing your plane down once empty, making landing more difficult
L63[07:00:11] <Lyneira> You can't simply put as much battery mass on a plane as you would fuel
L64[07:00:18] <Althego> we dont actually need the plasma
L65[07:00:28] <Althego> the turbofan makes like 90% of its trust in the fan
L66[07:00:38] <Althego> just have an eletricm otor and a 10% bigger fan
L67[07:01:25] <Lyneira> Maybe the jet can generate thrust more efficiently with the available energy?
L68[07:01:31] <Althego> and there you can have really high efficiency
L69[07:02:05] <Lyneira> Or is this plasma jet purely for things that need speeds above what turbofans can give
L70[07:02:11] <Althego> so if you can reach the energy density with battery, you are going to be way more efficient than a jet, even if the weight is constant
L71[07:02:58] <Lyneira> Are turbofans suitable for cruising at mach 0.8 at 10 km or so?
L72[07:03:06] <Althego> that is what they do
L73[07:03:07] <Lyneira> Electric ones
L74[07:03:27] <Lyneira> Hm, wonder why the big hooha about plasma jet then
L75[07:03:28] <Althego> i dont know of any commercial application of an electric turbofan
L76[07:03:43] <Althego> but as i said most of the thrust comes from the fan, so basiccally a strangely shaped propeller
L77[07:03:58] <Lyneira> Well yes, but that is because energy density doesn't make electric flight feasible for anything more than recreational short range
L78[07:03:59] <Althego> therefore that tiny amoun that you get from the jet exhaust doesnt matter
L79[07:04:08] <Althego> currently
L80[07:04:43] <Lyneira> Well, there's always beamed power...
L81[07:04:50] <Althego> supposedly some chinese cities planning electic flying taxis with automatically replacable batreries
L82[07:05:04] <Althego> hehe which also duplicates as a directed energy erapon
L83[07:05:07] <Althego> weapion
L84[07:05:09] <Althego> aka deathray
L85[07:05:10] <Lyneira> Why bother lugging all the energy you need for flight with you when you can just have it beamed to you
L86[07:05:57] <Althego> trains do it like that
L87[07:06:15] <Althego> it would be way better to just have ultra fast electric trains
L88[07:06:41] <Lyneira> If you beamed it in from over a wide source area and/or multiple locations that would create both redundancy and lower risk to anything that isn't the focus of the beam
L89[07:06:42] <Althego> first of all trains are easier to travel with. the airline industry has all that fake security and useless coplexity
L90[07:07:23] <Lyneira> But trains require all that pesky expensive infrastructure and they can't go as fast as airplanes
L91[07:07:42] <Althego> they can go almostas fast
L92[07:07:49] <Lyneira> Unless you're suggesting the world invests uncountable billions in a vast hyperloop network
L93[07:08:05] <Althego> and you dont need to waste hours at an airport. they have comprable speed for longer travels even now
L94[07:08:34] <Althego> hyperloop just sounds good, doesnt seem to be useful
L95[07:08:36] <Lyneira> No train from Europe to the US that I know of
L96[07:09:20] <Lyneira> And other similar long distance trips
L97[07:10:53] <Althego> abut you cant travel through the atlantic by train
L98[07:11:05] <Althego> so planes will always have some place
L99[07:12:02] <Lyneira> I hope one day we'll build an orbital ring
L100[07:12:28] <Althego> around earth?
L101[07:12:33] <Lyneira> Yup
L102[07:12:53] <Althego> i man is it a rotating ring station orbiting earth, or a huge ring around the earth?
L103[07:13:32] <packbart> delivery of my new computer toy is delayed until late next week :/ - just because of an eSATA cable I don't really need. I wish I'd known before
L104[07:13:46] <Althego> astronomers would be outraged
L105[07:13:48] <FLHerne> The second one would be cooler
L106[07:14:19] <FLHerne> I don't think the astronomers would care
L107[07:14:20] <Althego> they are very much against starlink even now
L108[07:14:36] <FLHerne> If you can build a giant orbiting ring, you can build a few space telescopes
L109[07:14:42] <packbart> can't see oncoming asteroids through the ring
L110[07:14:45] <FLHerne> (or just put telescopes on the giant ring)
L111[07:14:52] <Althego> ah yes obvious solution
L112[07:14:53] <Lyneira> Althego: A huge ring around the earth that levitates by a combination of a central ring that spins faster than orbital velocity, while the static portion rests on magnetic levitation powered by the spinning part's energy
L113[07:15:16] <packbart> that argument has been made about starlink, too. astronomers say: space telescopes cannot replace ground-based telescopes for various reasons
L114[07:15:21] <Lyneira> Really great video about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMbI6sk-62E
L115[07:15:22] <kmath> YouTube - Orbital Rings
L116[07:15:52] <packbart> "astronomers say" - I sound like a certain head. the one astronomer I chat with on IRC explained that ;)
L117[07:16:05] <FLHerne> packbart: That's true currently because there's no way to build space telescopes nearly as large as the really big ground ones
L118[07:16:38] <Althego> actually you could put the biggest telescopes in space. because here on earth it is extremely hard to make them big because of gravity
L119[07:16:53] <FLHerne> An orbiting ring around the entire planet presupposes the ability to build very large things in space
L120[07:17:36] <FLHerne> Althego: Sure, but you need some way to launch and assemble them with less money than exists in the world :P
L121[07:17:42] <Lyneira> Building large in space is easier than on earth, you don't have nearly as much stress forces to worry about
L122[07:18:13] <Althego> simple, you need to take the materials from space, not taking it up from the gravity well of earth
L123[07:18:19] <Lyneira> Anyway, once you have an orbital ring, you can move people and stuff up into space and launch them into orbit for costs that approach a metro ticket fare
L124[07:18:46] <FLHerne> Thus > I don't think the astronomers would care
L125[07:19:19] <FLHerne> They care *now* because we don't have trivially cheap launch or in-space material production
L126[07:19:33] <Lyneira> You could literally take a carriage along a tether up to the orbital ring, zip halfway around the planet and come back down another tether as if you took a metro ride
L127[07:20:40] <FLHerne> So there's no affordable way to replace ground-based telescopes potentially affected by Starlink with space-based ones
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L130[07:21:01] <Lyneira> It also makes the construction of additional orbital rings way easier
L131[07:21:23] <FLHerne> But like I said, and as you say, that problem will have gone away when space megastructures are a thing
L132[07:21:39] <Lyneira> You can build them at slightly different altitudes and connect them together to allow passengers to transfer from ring to ring to get someplace that a single orbital ring can't get you to
L133[07:21:56] <FLHerne> These things don't seem very fault-tolerant, though
L134[07:22:17] <FLHerne> What happens if part of the maglev system fails, or even needs maintenance?
L135[07:22:30] <FLHerne> You can't spin down something the circumference of a planet
L136[07:22:47] <FLHerne> (still, it's better than those 'fountains')
L137[07:22:48] <Lyneira> You build them with so much fault tolerance and redundancy that it simply doesn't happen
L138[07:23:02] <Lyneira> It's not gonna be receiving power from just one connection on earth
L139[07:23:10] <FLHerne> "When something that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong, it is usually impossible to get at or repair."
L140[07:23:16] <Lyneira> And the ring itself will have a lot of orbital energy stored in it too
L141[07:23:53] <Lyneira> I think the video does address "what could go wrong" too though
L142[07:24:34] <Lyneira> It's a common question for all active support based structures but that's I think in part because we've little experience in building with them
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L144[07:28:25] <Althego> if something goes wrong scotty, geordi laforge, chief o'brien, etc fixes it :)
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L146[07:29:50] <Lyneira> Energy production and availability is going to get better and active support systems can be built with enough stored energy that they can survive extended power outages or redundancy to survive mechanical failures
L147[07:30:51] <Lyneira> Engineering a skyscraper is a rigorous process now, active support structures will get just as much rigourous engineering into covering all the possible failure modes
L148[07:31:12] <packbart> Dres once had such a ring station in ancient times. It crashed. That's what created the canyon
L149[07:31:14] <Althego> just as in energy laser is good for everything, in matter graphene solves the problems
L150[07:31:30] <Althego> if we had a lot of graphene, we could produce all kinds of cool things
L151[07:31:49] <Althego> radiation shielding, strong structural materials, better than ever batteries
L152[07:32:23] <Althego> ah yes, also computers
L153[07:35:22] <Althego> what is the origin of valles marineris?
L154[07:44:39] <packbart> Space Marines, obviously
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L173[11:52:45] <darsie> Can I use the RWs of a pod if I klaw it?
L174[11:53:09] <Althego> it is like docking. it becomes one ship
L175[11:53:17] <darsie> Sharing fuel won't work, I guess, so I don't have much hope for EC.
L176[11:53:20] <darsie> hmm
L177[11:53:35] <Althego> but yes fuel flow rules apply
L178[11:53:38] <darsie> ah, ok.
L179[11:53:56] <darsie> or ... what do you mean?
L180[11:54:17] <Althego> where fuel cant flow through, wont flow through even with a calw
L181[11:54:57] <darsie> You did not answer my original question.
L182[11:55:22] <Althego> it becomes one ship, so other resources should eb available
L183[11:55:26] <darsie> ok
L184[11:55:37] * darsie still tests it ...
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L186[11:56:37] <packbart> there are fuel lines through the klaw. just don't grapple a heat shield, girder or other non-crossfueling part
L187[11:57:13] <Althego> that is what i was talking about
L188[11:57:23] <Althego> where it cant flow normally
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L190[11:58:45] <packbart> I built sort of a refuelling vehicle with a robotic claw: http://formularfetischisten.de/~packbart/temp/kspmd.jpg
L191[11:58:59] <packbart> can adjust height to most rockets
L192[11:59:20] <packbart> (never mind the girder-trough-the-helmet)
L193[11:59:58] <packbart> now that I look at it, those girder segments do allow cross-fuel, it appears
L194[12:00:47] <Althego> the kerbal is looking at a no doubt really interesting bulkhead for the duration of the trip :)
L195[12:01:08] <packbart> wintergatan, #otherchan says
L196[12:01:31] <packbart> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFUW_7n3O0k
L197[12:01:32] <kmath> YouTube - Custom Bass CYBER CAPOS
L198[12:06:23] <darsie> Clawed RW works on the pad: http://bksys.at/bernhard/temp/screenshot245.png
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L200[12:08:21] <Althego> it is playing something
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L210[14:52:23] * darsie klawed Andous Kerman in his pod: http://bksys.at/bernhard/temp/screenshot249.png
L211[14:53:33] <packbart> reentering the atmosphere in that config was were I had most troubles
L212[14:53:44] * packbart eventually gave up on part recovery contracts
L213[14:54:21] <darsie> Why give up?
L214[14:54:25] <darsie> Bored?
L215[14:54:31] <darsie> ah
L216[14:54:32] <darsie> nm
L217[14:54:47] <flayer> packbart, giant heat shields?
L218[14:54:52] <packbart> that, too
L219[14:54:53] <darsie> I can reklaw in orbit.
L220[14:55:07] <darsie> Shouldn't be an issue.
L221[14:55:23] <packbart> flayer: that would work. I might just give it a try again
L222[14:58:48] <darsie> dang, didn't save when landed. Launched at wrong phase angle to my orbiter for refuelling. Gonna take more time.
L223[15:06:04] <kubi> that grabber is cheating
L224[15:06:28] <kubi> KIS + KAS with pipes are nicer
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L227[15:40:28] <packbart> GroundConstruction - launch a recycler and turn the part into "MaterialKits" on the spot, return and produce a new part. StarTrek transporters, the manual way ;)
L228[15:41:09] <packbart> (yeah, it probably wouldn't fulfil the contract because the original ID is lost)
L229[15:45:59] <darsie> kubi: I used picoports.
L230[15:49:09] <flayer> i got no contracts for duna, but i'm sending a mission anyway
L231[15:49:47] <darsie> flayer: You could wait 7 days and check again, repeat.
L232[15:50:36] <flayer> i'm sure i'll get some funds from it eventually
L233[15:50:40] <darsie> Hmm, a single parachute was probably not enough for the Mk2 pod.
L234[15:50:49] <darsie> flayer: How?
L235[15:51:31] <flayer> 'move satellite x' 'investigate z for temperature with rover y'
L236[15:51:41] <darsie> ok
L237[16:14:31] <darsie> One chute worked. I burnt all fuel before touch down. http://bksys.at/bernhard/temp/screenshot251.png
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L276[23:01:17] <Althego> what, another static fire?
L277[23:01:42] <Althego> we want to see dynamic fire, a hop
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