OCLogs: 2019-07-19.log

Stuff goes here

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L14[02:05:26] <packbart> Black_Eagle: there usually is a size indicator in the part icon, just not in the thumbnail

L15[02:05:39] <packbart> otoh, after a while I know where which part is

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L23[04:19:00] <Eddi|zuHause> you mean that little scale thingie? that is pretty much useless

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L43[07:43:14] <kubi> what is this silence?

L44[07:44:42] <Rolf> ehh

L45[07:44:46] <Rolf> *shh

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L47[07:49:22] <sandbox> aliens

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L49[08:07:36] <packbart> When in doubt, burn radial, scream and shout

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L53[08:33:19] <UmbralRaptor> Synchronized panicking is a plan, right?

L54[08:36:19] ⇨ Joins: TTMN (TTMN!kiwiirc@p579C0D63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)

L55[08:38:11] <TTMN> So after almost exclusively using rockets I tried making an SSTO

L56[08:38:40] <TTMN> However, I tried doing 45° climb until the second level of atmosphere but after that I fail to gain any more speed

L57[08:38:58] <TTMN> somehow I managed to get a lot of speed earlier with almost the same design so I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong

L58[08:39:04] <TTMN> This is my craft: https://i.imgur.com/JjxCweE.jpg

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L60[08:40:27] <packbart> An SSTO can be a rocket, too

L61[08:41:14] <TTMN> sure but I'm trying to figure out how these space planes work

L62[08:41:32] <packbart> if it performed better before, I'd look at the drag overlay and debug data

L63[08:41:59] <packbart> I heard those Mk2 parts have the worst drag

L64[08:42:25] <TTMN> hmm how do I open that?

L65[08:43:08] <packbart> the overlay with F12, the debug data can be enabled under Physics/Aero in the cheat/debug menu (mod-F12)

L66[08:43:32] <packbart> red arrows mean drag, blue arrows mean lift

L67[08:43:57] <Althego> yellow is control surface

L68[08:44:00] <Althego> cyan is body ift

L69[08:44:07] <Althego> purple is blade

L70[08:45:37] <Althego> and they are running oout of colors

L71[08:47:02] <TTMN> hmm I don't really see any red arrow

L72[08:47:03] <TTMN> s

L73[08:47:16] <Althego> then you are not going fast enough :)

L74[08:47:35] <Althego> some of them may hide inside the body

L75[08:47:37] <TTMN> nvmd I'm seeing it now

L76[08:47:41] <TTMN> was covered by the engine

L77[08:47:45] <TTMN> just had to change the angle a bit

L78[08:47:46] <TTMN> but

L79[08:47:52] <TTMN> I'm not sure what that is telling me lol

L80[08:48:17] <Althego> for easier results there is the aero debug view in the alt-f12 menu, that shows sum drag sum lift and stuff like that

L81[08:48:45] <Althego> it is telling you, you want to fly the plane in a way that generates the least dra

L82[08:49:17] <TTMN> would that be when I'm closest to prograde in most cases?

L83[08:49:23] <Althego> yes

L84[08:49:40] <Althego> unfortunately in ksp 0 degree aoa wings dont generate lift

L85[08:49:53] <Althego> so typically your nose is pointing a bit up, creating drag

L86[08:50:06] <Althego> solution is to add a bit of an angle to the wings

L87[08:50:39] <TTMN> hmm horizontal I'm guessing?

L88[08:51:10] <Althego> this only matters if your twr is very low, typically for breaking the sound barrier. butany ssto that has high delta v would fall in this categiry

L89[08:53:43] <TTMN> right now it looks like this https://i.imgur.com/TPA0XTQ.png

L90[08:54:05] <Black_Eagle> packbart: mark2 is okay. it's really bad if your plane has a huge angle of attack. you should tilt the wings a little bit to counteract this

L91[08:54:50] <Althego> wings are in the back, so i would probably go with the copout canards

L92[08:55:28] <Black_Eagle> why is docking so imprecise? i tried to dock a craft in a specific roll position and it just kept rolling and bumping around

L93[08:57:08] <TTMN> Althego what are copout canards?

L94[08:58:49] <Althego> they are copout because they are the easy solution to the problem. control surfaces in the front. they add the missing lift in the front if your wings are in the back. they also add easy takeoff by lifting the nose, instead of pushing the tail down (where it cant go because of the runway)

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L96[08:59:58] <UmbralRaptor> You say copout, I say good engineering tradeoff

L97[09:00:01] <UmbralRaptor> …

L98[09:00:10] <UmbralRaptor> why did they leave?

L99[09:00:54] ⇨ Joins: TTMN (TTMN!kiwiirc@p579C0D63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)

L100[09:01:30] <UmbralRaptor> … why leave?

L101[09:01:32] <Althego> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canard_(aeronautics)

L102[09:01:48] <TTMN> I got disconnected

L103[09:02:07] <UmbralRaptor> Anyway, I can't see any canards on it, but it might be the lighting <_<

L104[09:02:33] <Althego> yes me neither

L105[09:02:46] <Althego> that is why it has high aoa

L106[09:03:12] <Althego> but in reality most planes dont need them

L107[09:03:18] <Althego> i wonder how they do it

L108[09:03:28] <Althego> look at the sr71 for example

L109[09:03:39] <Althego> supposedly some lift is generated on the body

L110[09:03:47] <Althego> but mk2 parts also do that in ksp

L111[09:04:55] <UmbralRaptor> For really small jets, I tend to have a pair of canards do 100% of my pitch and roll inputs >_>

L112[09:05:06] <UmbralRaptor> (Also, who needs yaw?)

L113[09:05:50] <Althego> i dont

L114[09:06:00] <TTMN> This is really frustrating

L115[09:06:26] <TTMN> adding canards to the front really didn't change anything

L116[09:06:36] <TTMN> tilting the wings a bit didn't either

L117[09:07:00] <Althego> but anyway, what is the problem with the plane?

L118[09:07:47] <TTMN> It doesn't gain speed after getting into the second level of the atmosphere

L119[09:07:48] <Althego> sstos also tend to have a specific profile what you really have to fly to make them work

L120[09:07:59] <TTMN> And somehow I managed to get to 1400m/s earlier with a very similar design

L121[09:08:04] <Althego> that can be because of drag, true

L122[09:08:08] <TTMN> but idk what I did differently

L123[09:08:52] <Althego> but jets are finicky

L124[09:09:09] <Althego> like they start to create high thrust above the speed of sound

L125[09:09:36] <UmbralRaptor> Possibly also engine performance, lots of engines lose thrust at ~mach 1, and the whiplash and rapier gain a lot a bit afterwards, so a shallow dive may be necessary

L126[09:09:37] <Althego> but they also dont like to work above 20-25 km

L127[09:10:00] <Althego> so you wantto fligh as fast as possible in a narrow altitude band

L128[09:11:38] <Althego> this is quite different to the ascent profile of rockets

L129[09:12:06] <TTMN> I tried to follow the profiles suggested by other people online

L130[09:13:41] <TTMN> I don't get any more speed after ~10 km

L131[09:14:06] <Althego> sounds like the engines cant overpower the drag

L132[09:14:34] <Althego> and that is a vicious cycle, because you get high thrust above the speed of sound, but if you cant brake the sound barrier it doesnt work

L133[09:14:55] <Althego> obvious solution: more boosters :)

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L136[09:19:06] <UmbralRaptor> Navier-Stokes equations are annoying

L137[09:19:15] <Althego> hehe

L138[09:19:43] <Althego> in general partial differential equations are no joke

L139[09:21:21] <UmbralRaptor> All I can suggest to TTMN is trying to include a dive in the flight profile and/or shrinking the craft to increase TWR and reduce drag

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L141[09:21:56] <Althego> that is there in the skylon profile too

L142[09:22:02] <Althego> although i never had luck with this

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L144[09:23:00] <UmbralRaptor> Yay, it's (technically) a realistic flight profile

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L146[09:29:28] * UmbralRaptor should probably get a handle on the new science and robotics parts at some point

L147[09:32:19] <Althego> lol how did gog turn into german

L148[09:33:14] <Althego> hehe, sprache wählen, english, and then it stays german, i refresh and it is still german

L149[09:33:55] <UmbralRaptor> Bad geolocation and language assumptions?

L150[09:34:12] <Althego> no, it resets the language to german which is the second choice

L151[09:34:27] <TTMN> hmm UmbralRaptor I'll try to do that but I'll also get less delta V

L152[09:34:40] <TTMN> I would add more engines

L153[09:34:42] <Althego> is that a stock plane?

L154[09:34:45] <TTMN> but not sure where I would put them lol

L155[09:34:53] <TTMN> Mine is

L156[09:35:01] <Althego> can i try it?

L157[09:36:42] <TTMN> sure

L158[09:37:51] <TTMN> sec

L159[09:41:09] <TTMN> If I can find the craft file location

L160[09:41:36] <Althego> saves <name> ships vab

L161[09:41:48] <UmbralRaptor> ^

L162[09:41:57] <Althego> or rather sph

L163[09:42:00] <Althego> for an airplane

L164[09:42:10] <TTMN> yeah that folder doesn't seem to exist

L165[09:42:11] <Althego> at least usually but not always

L166[09:42:25] <TTMN> or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place

L167[09:42:39] <packbart> there's a SPH directory, too

L168[09:43:02] <TTMN> nvmd it's uppercase Ships

L169[09:43:20] <Althego> yes, but i dont write uppercase

L170[09:45:17] * UmbralRaptor ? case sensitive filesystems

L171[09:45:39] <TTMN> https://u.teknik.io/gjBwJ.craft

L172[09:45:41] <TTMN> There you go

L173[09:46:02] <TTMN> that site seems to garble the filename but at least I didn't have to register first

L174[09:47:08] <TTMN> UmbralRaptor case insensitive filesystem sounds like a really weird idea

L175[09:47:28] <TTMN> especially when you consider all of unicode

L176[09:47:50] <Althego> wait, you are using the wrong engines

L177[09:47:55] <UmbralRaptor> I mean, upper/lower case doesn't exist in all languages

L178[09:48:30] <TTMN> well in those it just wouldn't make a difference

L179[09:48:37] <TTMN> Althego what do you mean?

L180[09:48:49] <Althego> these are panthers

L181[09:49:04] <TTMN> yeah it's not a high tech build

L182[09:49:21] <Althego> you need at least whiplash or rapier

L183[09:49:30] <Althego> you cant get up to 1400 with whiplash

L184[09:49:31] <UmbralRaptor> Yeah, they're going to struggle with supersonic in dry mode, and kinda iffy in wet

L185[09:49:33] <TTMN> hmm I read it should be possible as well

L186[09:49:43] <TTMN> maybe those posts were out of date though

L187[09:50:03] <TTMN> The thing is I did get them to supersonic once by accident

L188[09:51:23] <TTMN> hmm I guess I could collect enough science to unlock the whiplash though

L189[09:51:29] <TTMN> I'll just go for that then

L190[09:52:48] <Althego> they topped out at 763 m/s for me

L191[09:53:03] <Althego> and the rocket is too small

L192[09:53:06] <Althego> to compensate

L193[09:53:10] <TTMN> yeah I never even got that far

L194[09:53:25] <Althego> have to fly quite flat

L195[09:53:35] <Althego> i was in less that 15 deg at 5 km

L196[09:53:39] <Althego> than

L197[09:53:51] <Althego> but because of that you need at least a bigger rocket

L198[09:54:16] <Althego> so the delta v on the rocket needs to be say 2k, the jets take you to max 800

L199[09:54:41] <Althego> you also dont need that many intakes

L200[09:56:24] <Althego> these panthers never changed because they are quite recent. the only way to make orbit with them is to have a really high twr

L201[10:00:06] <TTMN> I see

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L204[10:02:14] <TTMN> I guess I'll try to unlock the more powerful ones then rather than trying to get this to work

L205[10:08:36] <Black_Eagle> Althego: you can put Mk2 pieces in the front and taper it to 1.25m for the rest of the plane

L206[10:10:35] <Black_Eagle> TTMN i think i missed the pic, can you link it again?

L207[10:11:34] <TTMN> Which pic do you mean?

L208[10:11:54] <Black_Eagle> of the craft

L209[10:13:02] <Althego> it was dark

L210[10:13:36] <Althego> https://i.imgur.com/TPA0XTQ.png

L211[10:13:49] <Althego> in hindsight i should have noticed the orange flame

L212[10:15:16] <Black_Eagle> TTMN try these modifications: replace the radial intake 1.25m block with a Lf tank (400Lf). swap the Lf tank right behind the cockpit to the LfOx tank

L213[10:15:42] <Black_Eagle> TTMN, which rocket engine are you using? terrier?

L214[10:16:06] <TTMN> yeah

L215[10:16:17] <Black_Eagle> you could use the Mk2 single => dual 1.25m tank pieces and put two terriers on it

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L217[10:16:41] <Black_Eagle> i'm not sure if that works all the way. i guess i could try it myself

L218[10:17:12] <Althego> or just use a single sviwel

L219[10:17:16] <Althego> for the rocket

L220[10:17:31] <Althego> that could probably push it to orbit from 800 m/s

L221[10:17:38] <Black_Eagle> swivel is how much thrust

L222[10:17:45] <Black_Eagle> 180?

L223[10:18:01] <Althego> 215 vac

L224[10:19:19] <Althego> that is twr > 1 since 20t takeoff weight

L225[10:24:45] <Black_Eagle> TTMN: does your wing sweep forward?

L226[10:26:09] <Althego> so i added a bit of aoa to the wings and changed to swivel, and it easily makes it into... suborbital because of lack of fuel

L227[10:26:39] <Althego> maybe with 2 terriers

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L229[10:34:35] <TTMN> So I did upgrade to the whiplash and seems like the single terrier isn't quite powerful enough there either

L230[10:35:33] <Althego> but at least your fuel will be enough :)

L231[10:35:57] <Althego> since you can go up to maybe 1300 with this mass

L232[10:36:05] <Althego> that is 500 less on the rocket

L233[10:36:42] <Black_Eagle> https://imgur.com/a06zdnI

L234[10:36:42] <kmath> https://i.imgur.com/a06zdnI.png

L235[10:37:00] <Althego> that is cute

L236[10:37:01] <Black_Eagle> pretty sure this can make it into orbit

L237[10:37:09] <Althego> looks like that russian air started shuttle thing

L238[10:37:20] <Althego> yes looks like it

L239[10:37:20] <Black_Eagle> i was too greedy with 15 degree pitch but i'll try again with 7

L240[10:39:03] <TTMN> I guess I should also switch from the ramp to the shock cone?

L241[10:39:07] <Mat2ch> Ouh, that's a nice plane

L242[10:39:27] <Mat2ch> Black_Eagle: I'm not sure if this really can make it into orbit.

L243[10:39:27] <Althego> tbh the air intakes dont matter much

L244[10:40:10] <Mat2ch> My designs that were like this needed the RAPIERs and a bit of oxidizer :|

L245[10:41:05] <Althego> whiplashes take it to 1330, maybe the 2 terriers are enough from that

L246[10:42:24] <Althego> yes, looks like it

L247[10:45:42] <Althego> whit the wiplashes it is easy, can even make rendezvous with something http://warpology.com/k/Science%20SSTO%20Improved.craft

L248[10:45:56] <TTMN> thats what my plan was tbh

L249[10:46:05] <TTMN> rendesvouz with my space station

L250[10:46:15] <Althego> around 500 m/s remaining

L251[10:46:27] <Althego> in this iteration it has too much liquid fuel

L252[10:47:16] <TTMN> I always have too much fuel tbh

L253[10:48:36] <Mat2ch> too much lfo is not a problem. Just take a detour somewhere ;)

L254[10:48:51] <Althego> it is actually useful for ballast

L255[10:48:55] <Althego> one issue with long planes liekthis

L256[10:48:59] <Mat2ch> I once had an SSTO with 2k or 3k dV left in orbit. That was nice

L257[10:49:03] <Althego> that if they run dry they may become unstable

L258[10:49:08] <Althego> because the engines are in the back

L259[10:49:19] <Althego> so the dry com always moves backwards

L260[10:50:01] <Black_Eagle> Mat2ch Althego it makes it into a 75x75 orbit with 200m/s left

L261[10:50:07] <Mat2ch> Sweet!

L262[10:50:11] <Althego> nice

L263[10:50:42] <Althego> i think i build that for myself too

L264[10:50:46] <Black_Eagle> flight profile is 900/ms below 1k, then pitch up as smoothly as possible to about 25 degrees. fire up swivel at ~18k

L265[10:50:52] <Althego> because that front part makes it cute

L266[10:52:11] <Black_Eagle> you could probably make it even more efficient by removing 100 Lf. had some extra

L267[10:52:16] <TTMN> hmm my two terriers are climbing way too slowly at 26 km

L268[10:52:30] <TTMN> I really have to figure out this part of the flight path

L269[10:52:40] <Black_Eagle> TTMN: Althego's suggestion for swivel was actually really good. you could try that, too

L270[10:52:51] <Althego> the point of the big jets is to collect enough speed so that the apoapsis is far enough that you can make into orbit with less than 1 twr

L271[10:52:53] <TTMN> yeah I probably should

L272[10:53:24] <Black_Eagle> also most likely the most efficient flight profile is to go really fast below 1000m and then pitch up to about 15-30 degrees, ideally fire the rocket around 20k

L273[10:53:34] <Black_Eagle> with rapier it's 30k

L274[10:54:15] <Black_Eagle> although with rapiers you can pretty much insert yourself into space. i always climb full power and end up apoapsis 120k and then i'm like "but my station is at 80k"

L275[10:55:48] <Black_Eagle> Althego here's a picture from another angle: https://imgur.com/Yv56zXk

L276[10:55:48] <kmath> https://i.imgur.com/Yv56zXk.png

L277[10:56:13] <Althego> i think i am going to use smaller wheels

L278[10:56:18] <Althego> and less lf

L279[10:56:37] <Black_Eagle> oh, the two outer tanks are LfO, only the middle one is Lf

L280[10:56:57] <Black_Eagle> i just like medium wheels because the front wheel makes for a perfect heat shield

L281[10:57:59] <Black_Eagle> Althego: comme ca! grey tanks are LfO https://imgur.com/bvcuOdd

L282[10:57:59] <kmath> https://i.imgur.com/bvcuOdd.png

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L285[10:59:52] <Black_Eagle> Althego have you ever noticed the landing gear has a heat tolerance of 2600 K? for reference mk2 cockpit has only 2500 K

L286[11:00:02] <Althego> hehe

L287[11:00:03] <Althego> no

L288[11:00:03] <Eddi|zuHause> "then i'm like "but my station is at 80k"" <-- i don't put my stations that low, because that makes for tricky rendevouz

L289[11:00:48] <Black_Eagle> Eddi|zuHause i wouldn't either but most of my SSTO creations are one or two man seaters and so tiny that they can't make it any further :D

L290[11:01:39] <Eddi|zuHause> ... and i can't figure out launch windows to plan rendevouz right from launch

L291[11:02:48] <TTMN> hmm I almost got into orbit this time

L292[11:02:52] <TTMN> but still too inefficient

L293[11:03:15] <Black_Eagle> Eddi|zuHause https://i.imgur.com/2tG6zay.png there's this thing that makes it into orbit with 200Lf and nothing else

L294[11:03:31] <TTMN> I mean I did get into orbit but without enough fuel to rondesvouz

L295[11:04:25] <nate> Has anyone ever created like an actual orbital shipyard mod or template yet? Haven't really looked in ages but it was something I always wanted to see

L296[11:06:30] <Eddi|zuHause> Black_Eagle: i've no clue how that thing even flies :p

L297[11:07:27] <Black_Eagle> pretty well if i remember correctly. shoots up like a rocket. the flight profile is pretty much the lowest ascent that makes it above 70km and doesn't blow up the whole thing from overheating

L298[11:07:42] <Althego> lol nuke for such a small craft

L299[11:08:07] <Black_Eagle> had one unit of Lf in orbit https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/30639-sstos-post-your-pictures-here~/page/175/&tab=comments#comment-3051871

L300[11:08:13] <Black_Eagle> i'm actually pretty proud of that thing

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L304[11:23:03] <Althego> lol take me home country road from frog leap studios

L305[11:38:09] <Althego> finally i made it into orbit with that small thing. 180 m/s remaining

L306[11:38:44] <Althego> around 150 m/s too much lf

L307[11:39:06] <Althego> probably if i had burnt more i could have achieved the orbit faster

L308[11:41:21] <Althego> 150 units, not m6s

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L317[12:20:59] <packbart> nate: what would be an "actual" shipyard?

L318[12:21:32] <packbart> there are mods to build crafts outside KSC. GlobalConstruction and EPL come tmind

L319[12:21:44] <nate> packbart: Something to let you actually build in orbit, last I played there weren't anything quite like that

L320[12:21:54] <nate> I'll have to check the mod sites again though I guess

L321[12:22:00] <Black_Eagle> Althego similar to the one i built?

L322[12:22:05] <Althego> yes

L323[12:22:15] <Althego> i put smaller wheels on it and bigger wings

L324[12:22:27] <packbart> nate: I like this one: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/154167-17-global-construction/

L325[12:22:37] <packbart> and there's Extraplanetary Launchpads by taniwha, iirc

L326[12:22:52] <packbart> I really need to look at that, too

L327[12:22:53] <Althego> but there is areson i dont want to use those jets for an orbital ship, really inefficient

L328[12:23:39] * packbart imagines an actual shipyard would involve sending a flock of engineers on EVA and attach every part manually with KIS/KAS magic

L329[12:23:51] <Althego> hehe

L330[12:23:58] <Althego> actualyl you could do that in the editor too

L331[12:24:22] <Althego> you place a part, but it would just place a ghost image, and you could see as engineers move it there and weld it

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L333[12:24:45] <packbart> there's another mod that uses GC to build the caft on the launchpad

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L335[12:25:09] <packbart> when you press "launch" it packs the vessel into a DIY kit and sets up a workshop + materials on the launchpad

L336[12:25:28] <packbart> might take a few days to assemble a large craft

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L338[12:27:46] *** Ezriilc_ is now known as Ezriilc

L339[12:27:56] <Althego> hehe, assembling orbital interceptor

L340[12:28:00] <Althego> power extreme :)

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L342[12:33:19] <Black_Eagle> Althego, true. the only reason you'd do it is if you don't have whiplash or rapier unlocked

L343[12:34:00] <Althego> rapier is tough, but whiplash is reachable. although for a long time i fly with panthers in career

L344[12:34:20] <Black_Eagle> packbart that's a cool idea... i wish they let you build parts in space/on the ground from ore

L345[12:34:29] <Black_Eagle> we'd finally have a use for the larger ore tanks

L346[12:35:34] <Black_Eagle> and depending on the size of the shipyard you could build certain size parts etc

L347[12:37:44] <Black_Eagle> one could make cheesing it more difficult by having to bring 'exotic materials kit' from Kerbin every time you want to build a part, simulating the fact that you can extract common elements but you can't realistically expect to find enough uranium from an asteroid to power a RTG

L348[12:40:39] <packbart> GC does exactly that. it can produce parts from MaterialKits and SpecializedParts, both of which can be converted from ore

L349[12:41:20] <Black_Eagle> wow okay i didn't know that

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L354[13:04:23] <transitbiker_> Kerbal Space Program LIVE! Apollo style moon landing mission! Can we get it done today?! Tune in live: https://youtu.be/q3sN3zGYLoo

L355[13:04:24] <kmath> YouTube - Apollo 11 tribute LIVE in Kerbal Space Program! (TAKE TREE!)

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L357[13:16:35] <transitbiker> whew

L358[13:38:09] <kubi> and why we need that face on the screen?

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L377[16:42:19] <Black_Eagle> what do you guys think; can throw someone's food in the trash if they're being an ass on purpose

L378[16:45:00] <UmbralRaptop> uh

L379[16:45:24] <packbart> I'd say no

L380[16:45:37] <packbart> (and I don't care either ;)

L381[16:45:41] <Black_Eagle> probably a good call

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